1st and 3rd delayed steal. Need ideas?

Funny, opposing team tried to pull this off when my son was pitching this weekend.  After the boys threw the runner out at home, I gave it to the first base coach a little, saying this wasn't little league and I was unimpressed his 18U "elite" team had to try that to get a run home..

Nathan, we code our coverage but to be sure, the 2B coming to a position you described is one of them.  I love both running the 1st and 3rd and defending it.  Both are challenging and will demonstrate just how well your team has been coached.  Our #1 rule for our defense is that no team scores.  We put our 3B in charge to call the cuts, throws, ...  Of course we practice that a lot.  

If this works, the coach is a genius and if it doesn't, he is a fool.  I am willing to risk it on offense.  The other side of the coin is the psychological impact it has on the team that could not defend it.  JMHO!

Always hated youth coaches that taught this stuff.  Coaches should be spending their time teaching the fundamentals of the game...not this stuff...trying to steal runs because the opponent is too inexperienced.  As you rise up ladder in the sport, that stuff doesn't work, so why teach it?  

At the higher levels of the game (college), any delayed steal situation would result in the runner from 1st getting either caught in a rundown or getting the runner from 3rd out at the plate.  Not always, but enough that you seldom see it attempted.

I

How does ss play hole with righty up and cover the bag on steal?

Who does pitcher throw to on delated steal?  2B has to play delayed and cover 1B if bunt it.

AD2018 posted:

Always hated youth coaches that taught this stuff.  Coaches should be spending their time teaching the fundamentals of the game...not this stuff...trying to steal runs because the opponent is too inexperienced.  As you rise up ladder in the sport, that stuff doesn't work, so why teach it?  

At the higher levels of the game (college), any delayed steal situation would result in the runner from 1st getting either caught in a rundown or getting the runner from 3rd out at the plate.  Not always, but enough that you seldom see it attempted.

 

I

I've seen "this stuff" win state titles.  I've been the part of a coaching staff that ran successful 1st and 3rds at the state tournament.  This type of coaching is coaching the fundamentals.  You do realize that the majority of players will never play in college don't you?  You do realize that the same argument you make could apply to sacrifice bunts, the bunting game in general ...  I'd love to coach against you.  

+1, coach.  I'm sure Javier Baez would agree too.

CoachB25 posted:

AD2018 posted:

Always hated youth coaches that taught this stuff.  Coaches should be spending their time teaching the fundamentals of the game...not this stuff...trying to steal runs because the opponent is too inexperienced.  As you rise up ladder in the sport, that stuff doesn't work, so why teach it?  

At the higher levels of the game (college), any delayed steal situation would result in the runner from 1st getting either caught in a rundown or getting the runner from 3rd out at the plate.  Not always, but enough that you seldom see it attempted.

 

I

I've seen "this stuff" win state titles.  I've been the part of a coaching staff that ran successful 1st and 3rds at the state tournament.  This type of coaching is coaching the fundamentals.  You do realize that the majority of players will never play in college don't you?  You do realize that the same argument you make could apply to sacrifice bunts, the bunting game in general ...  I'd love to coach against you.  

I don't agree with your sacrifice bunt analogy, as the sac bunt is an integral part of the game at all levels.  The 1st and 3rd play is only applicable at the youth level.  As boys get stronger and more athletic, it doesn't work.  That's why you don't see it at the college or pro level.

Maybe you're fine with coaching down to that level, rather than the fundamentals of the game, and maybe you will win a state tournament because of it.  However, your players won't benefit long term, but it's apparent what you're mostly concerned with.  All the power to you, coach.

Move your LF to the infield, CF to left center, RF to right center. It is obvious

that hitting team has no confidence in their hitter. Now you have 6 infielders. With two strikes shift back.

One time in Japan I suggested this to the President of the HS Baseball Federation, 40,000 at the HS tournament. "He said Coach would lose face"

I related that I would win! That is name of the game.

Bob

My thing is with SS covering on steal or fake bunt situation does that take away from him playing the hole?  Second now plays regular / hole and SS play up middle?

With runner on first I like 2nd to play more up the middle but in this case can't so much.

CTbballDad posted:

CoachB25 posted:

AD2018 posted:

Always hated youth coaches that taught this stuff.  Coaches should be spending their time teaching the fundamentals of the game...not this stuff...trying to steal runs because the opponent is too inexperienced.  As you rise up ladder in the sport, that stuff doesn't work, so why teach it?  

At the higher levels of the game (college), any delayed steal situation would result in the runner from 1st getting either caught in a rundown or getting the runner from 3rd out at the plate.  Not always, but enough that you seldom see it attempted.

 

I

I've seen "this stuff" win state titles.  I've been the part of a coaching staff that ran successful 1st and 3rds at the state tournament.  This type of coaching is coaching the fundamentals.  You do realize that the majority of players will never play in college don't you?  You do realize that the same argument you make could apply to sacrifice bunts, the bunting game in general ...  I'd love to coach against you.  

I don't agree with your sacrifice bunt analogy, as the sac bunt is an integral part of the game at all levels.  The 1st and 3rd play is only applicable at the youth level.  As boys get stronger and more athletic, it doesn't work.  That's why you don't see it at the college or pro level.

Maybe you're fine with coaching down to that level, rather than the fundamentals of the game, and maybe you will win a state tournament because of it.  However, your players won't benefit long term, but it's apparent what you're mostly concerned with.  All the power to you, coach.

Well, I'll tell the teams that went on to wins state championships that they didn't benefit from it.  I'll tell the 20+ kids that I've coached who went pro that they didn't benefit from it.  This is the high school baseball website.  Not college and not pro.  I win games.  I beat coaches who don't pay attention to detail or don't know how to coach.  Tell me, when your team gets beaten this way, what is it like to explain to your players that they didn't lose because you didn't know how to coach 1st and 3rds on both offense or defense but rather that the other team played a mean trick on them and the should not do that?  

Since you obviously are a superior coach, what level and success?  My resume has been displayed on this site for way over a decade.  

Nathan posted:

My thing is with SS covering on steal or fake bunt situation does that take away from him playing the hole?  Second now plays regular / hole and SS play up middle?

With runner on first I like 2nd to play more up the middle but in this case can't so much.

Nathan, your choice then is to have your 2B shorten up some.  They have to give something up.  Also, your SS has to give up some ground toward the 2B bag.  The extent depends upon how fast both of them are and their natural range.  As you know, some players are very good at taking angles and so, you can place them accordingly.  As an FYI, our "standard play" on a 1st and 3rd defense is what we call, "52"  5 or 3B is in charge to call cut and home and 2 the throw is going to the 2B who is to be 3/4th of the way between 1st and 2nd.  We immediately go in to that on both the steal and delay steal if I have not called anything else.  Ideally, we want one throw and an out.  However, if 3b yells 4 then all bets are off and the throw go home.  You practice this by having the offense and defense both receive signals in a practice.  I tell the offense to turn around and not look at me and I call the defense then do the same for the defense.  

I'm with Coach B and a bit surprised at the disdain by some posters on this.  Similarly, my experience is that many very good HS baseball games are won or lost by good/bad execution of the 1st/3rd play on both sides of the ball.  And I have seen plenty of this at the college level - it is worked on regularly there, albeit used less than HS.  I have also seen it at the MLB level, including just a week or two ago, granted FAR less often.  There are good HS teams here in CA that will eat you alive if you cannot execute defense of the 1st 3rd and they WILL exploit it.  This is one of the great strategy plays in baseball.  Lots of moving parts, including game situation, hitter, C and MIF arm strength, sharpness of each team with execution, etc.  This IS a part of fundamental baseball.  The object of baseball is to score more runs than the opponent and that usually involves some version of exploiting weakness.  Hit mediocre pitching hard, run on pitchers or catchers, put plays on that vacate holes and execute, bunt on slow P's or 3b's, etc., etc.  

We run different defenses depending on our personnel.  We have been blessed with a SS with a cannon the last few years so this allows us throw thru more often and have him make the read.  Additionally, we involve the P.  One play that we will often show early is C sells a throwdown and P intercepts and looks to throw to 3b.  Then, when we throw down later in the game, P's will fake the interception and this goes a long way to allowing us to take the out at 2b while freezing the R3.

Offensively, if you have 1 out and a weak hitter bottom of the lineup that tends to hit ground balls or K, this play can improve your odds of scoring and take away the DP.  It is important for the R1 to know his job and read the D.  Often the defense will have the MIF cut short of the bag, allowing R1 to walk into second.  We'll even run the 1st/3rd offense with 2 outs sometimes with the right combination of runners and hitter.  This changes the responsibility of R1... has worked more often than the percentages of the hitter getting a hit and/or producing the run in the situations that we run it.

Here are some double steals, mostly from MLB, three of which are 1st/3rd plays...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Gkc6yKpAPI

Have no problem with the straight double steals shown in the videos.  What I think is bush is when the runner at first intentionally walks off the base before the pitcher even goes into his motion...hoping for either a balk or to get in a run down.  That play should not work against a good High School team.  Against a bad team, it will likely work every time...which shows up the other team and is probably unnecessary because the you will beat that team by just playing straight up.

AD2018 and  CTBBALLDAD, so you think Kevin O'Sullivan is a bush league coach who doesn't know the game?  Go back and look at how many times Florida has run this play and similar ones.  He teaches it regularly and says openly that if you can't run it or defend it then you are not teaching baseball fundamentals.  He even has a play where his runner going to first intentionally trips in the first and third situation.  Got him at least three runs two years ago.  To say this is not a part of baseball is ridiculous.  Any high school coach that does not team players how to defend against trick plays is doing their team an injustice.  I used to go over the fake pick to second, skunk in the outfield, Florida trip play, and several variations of first and third plays.  Last week in 17U WWBA I saw at least 10 different trick plays ran by high ranked organizations.  Some worked some didn't but you better know how to defend them.  first and third is definitely a part of baseball up through college.  But even in the pros I can bet you the players know how to defend it because they have seen it so much growing up. 

CoachB25 posted:

AD2018 posted:

Always hated youth coaches that taught this stuff.  Coaches should be spending their time teaching the fundamentals of the game...not this stuff...trying to steal runs because the opponent is too inexperienced.  As you rise up ladder in the sport, that stuff doesn't work, so why teach it?  

At the higher levels of the game (college), any delayed steal situation would result in the runner from 1st getting either caught in a rundown or getting the runner from 3rd out at the plate.  Not always, but enough that you seldom see it attempted.

 

I

I've seen "this stuff" win state titles.  I've been the part of a coaching staff that ran successful 1st and 3rds at the state tournament.  This type of coaching is coaching the fundamentals.  You do realize that the majority of players will never play in college don't you?  You do realize that the same argument you make could apply to sacrifice bunts, the bunting game in general ...  I'd love to coach against you.  

I find myself completely agreeing with CoachB25....hmmmm...

Trick plays are fine, as long as you get a snack after doing them. I always give my dog a snack after he performs a trick. I think the context is important. Delayed steals in youth baseball typically have a higher level of success because the skillset is less refined. Going up in age, the teams do practice against this strategy (yes, it is a strategy) and are far more successful in defending it. All is fair in love and war...if you don't want a team to make you look stupid, you better be ready for anything.

Ask Jerry Weinstein, former coach at Sac State and U of Miami, Dodgers Minor League Coordinator, World Games Coach. He is the "master" of the special plays.

Why do we play this game?  to Win!  

Bob

A team's job is to beat the other team. It makes no difference how, provided it's within the rules. I just saw Baez the other day try to fake a baserunner, who stole 2nd base, into thinking the ball from the C had went into CF. The runner didn't buy it, but to say this stuff stops/should stop at Little League is simply untrue.

PitchingFan posted:

AD2018 and  CTBBALLDAD, so you think Kevin O'Sullivan is a bush league coach who doesn't know the game?  Go back and look at how many times Florida has run this play and similar ones.  He teaches it regularly and says openly that if you can't run it or defend it then you are not teaching baseball fundamentals.  He even has a play where his runner going to first intentionally trips in the first and third situation.  Got him at least three runs two years ago.  To say this is not a part of baseball is ridiculous.  Any high school coach that does not team players how to defend against trick plays is doing their team an injustice.  I used to go over the fake pick to second, skunk in the outfield, Florida trip play, and several variations of first and third plays.  Last week in 17U WWBA I saw at least 10 different trick plays ran by high ranked organizations.  Some worked some didn't but you better know how to defend them.  first and third is definitely a part of baseball up through college.  But even in the pros I can bet you the players know how to defend it because they have seen it so much growing up. 

What is the trip play?  

Just curious how do you all defend it?  SS or Second baseman getting the ball from the pitcher.

I see a lot of teams tell there player to fall to the ground to make the other team bend over vs standing up to tag you out.  Or run deep into second base territory to have field turn his back to third base runner.

Florida

You have to watch entire thing to see what happens.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCMDi5n9iTM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spQ09EGOI4o

I love the comments.  "Teams work on this every day and that is how you win."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nx_M2dYudM4

Just for the fun of it.

CTbballDad posted:

I don't agree with your sacrifice bunt analogy, as the sac bunt is an integral part of the game at all levels.  The 1st and 3rd play is only applicable at the youth level.  As boys get stronger and more athletic, it doesn't work.  That's why you don't see it at the college or pro level.

Maybe you're fine with coaching down to that level, rather than the fundamentals of the game, and maybe you will win a state tournament because of it.  However, your players won't benefit long term, but it's apparent what you're mostly concerned with.  All the power to you, coach.

Did anyone see a “youth league” 1st and 3rd play run successfully in the CWS??

But yeah, it’s for little league. 

https://twitter.com/ncaacws/st...156600008704?lang=en

Nathan posted:

Who do you prefer to get the ball from the pitcher with a right handed batter up to bat?  If the runner at first delay steals who do you like to receive it.

I prefer the second baseman to come charging up NOT to the bag but in line with it and 5 feet from it and catch it.  We have learned that the second baseman has to know in this situation to play more up the middle.  Problem we have faced is when the hitting team fake bunt steals.  This makes our two corner infielders charge and the second baseman has to cover first which is long ways to go if playing up the middle.  

Does short stop have to know to cover the bag on a bunt but not on a steal?  Though I don't mind the short stop taking bag on a steal.

 

Ideas?

 

First, the only way to really defend a delayed steal is to do things right between pitches. Offensively, we only delay if we see a lazy C, lazy MIF, or both. So if your MIF aren't already pinching in to  back up the return throw, or if your catcher gets lazy, no set "defense" of sorts is going to help. If they're doing things correctly it should really just be a game of catch at that point. 

Straight steal we defend basically as you described. We let the 2b make a decision on the cut, but may tinker with the 3b calling it.

In bunt situations we always have our SS take the bag on bunts and steals, and 2b always has the 1b responsibility. You definitely give up some real estate with the SS, but you can pitch accordingly.

CoachB25 posted:

AD2018 posted:

Always hated youth coaches that taught this stuff.  Coaches should be spending their time teaching the fundamentals of the game...not this stuff...trying to steal runs because the opponent is too inexperienced.  As you rise up ladder in the sport, that stuff doesn't work, so why teach it?  

At the higher levels of the game (college), any delayed steal situation would result in the runner from 1st getting either caught in a rundown or getting the runner from 3rd out at the plate.  Not always, but enough that you seldom see it attempted.

 

I

I've seen "this stuff" win state titles.  I've been the part of a coaching staff that ran successful 1st and 3rds at the state tournament.  This type of coaching is coaching the fundamentals.  You do realize that the majority of players will never play in college don't you?  You do realize that the same argument you make could apply to sacrifice bunts, the bunting game in general ...  I'd love to coach against you.  

Nailed it!

A B1G team scored twice on my son's team last spring because we had absolutely no idea how to handle a 1st - 3rd situation.   Tho my son did say after the game "dad, they scored twice on a little league play" so I guess it goes both ways.....it's probably more common in LL, but it is used in college, though I'm fairly certain that my son's team may be one of the few D1 teams who it may work against lol

On the offensive side of the 1st & 3rd, I teach my players to pay attention on a walk and round first aggressively.  This keeps the defense from preparing for the 1st & 3rd DS on the pitch and the play is against one player (pitcher) instead of the entire defense.

I get where some may think this is Busch league offensively but I think saying that is comparatively saying stealing on a pitcher with a slow delivery or a catcher with no arm is the same.  I don't see it as Busch league or a trick play...it is just part of the game. 

Defensively, our team and program is so inexperienced that I leave it to my C & P to attempt to make the R3 come deeper for the out, otherwise I am content to concede SB to 2B.  We looked much better through this summer so I am optimistic that will change with the 2019 season. 

Buckeye 2015 posted:

A B1G team scored twice on my son's team last spring because we had absolutely no idea how to handle a 1st - 3rd situation.   Tho my son did say after the game "dad, they scored twice on a little league play" so I guess it goes both ways.....it's probably more common in LL, but it is used in college, though I'm fairly certain that my son's team may be one of the few D1 teams who it may work against lol

I've seen this win a college conference championship--it wasn't near the end of the game, but both teams were scratching for runs and this was the one that ended up being the winning one. 

I love 1st and 3rd Offensive and Defensive strategy. I call it one of the hidden gems of coaching. Base running, cut game, hold game, pick game, bunt game, 1st and 3rd game. These areas all have some things in common. It takes absolutely no more talent than you already have to gain a significant advantage over your opponent. If you work very hard to be very good in these areas your team will have a significant advantage over almost every team they play. When it will it matter? It will matter when it matters the absolute most. Teams that are well coached in these areas will have confidence when they are in these situations in games. Teams that are well coached in these areas are always well coached period. 

Defensive 1st and 3rd arsenals imo should be limited to 3 to 4 particular plays. You can not be sound on the defensive side of 1st and 3rds unless you are sound on the offensive side as well. Understanding how to attack a defense from an offensive stand point in 1st and 3rds is critical is understanding how to defend it. Your calls will be based on several factors. The players need to understand the goal, they need to be well coached in achieving the goal, they need to have confidence in doing that, they need reps and multiple scenarios thrown at them in game like situations in practice. And then they need to be allowed to fail in game's in order to win in games.

We work 1st and 3rds from the offensive side at the same time we work on the defensive side. Incorporating the hold game, pick game, bunt game and base running game at the same time. They are all intertwined in being a well coached and prepared to defend and attack. 

Fake Steal - Fake Bunt : Read / Learn

Hold Pause - Corners Feint - Middle Feint

We could talk for days on this subject. Well, I know I can. 

From an offensive stand point what is my goal in this 1st and 3rd situation? Is it to just get 2nd base? Is it to score a run? Is it to try and set up a big inning? Is it to gain information early so I can use it later if need be? What did I learn? How can I use it now? Do I need to use it later? Etc etc.

From a defensive stand point what is my goal? Get an out? Not give up a run? Etc etc.

I can tell you that the college programs that are not good at 1st and 3rd defense are not good period. That speaks for itself.  

Coach May, nice post.  Did anyone see that the 1st and 3rd was pulled off successfully this past week in MLB.  Also, it was defended this past week successfully in MLB.  So, at least two times this past week, someone in MLB called it.