Two outs, bottom of the 7th, winning run on third (No other runners), 3-1 count the batter, ball four wild pitch is thrown. Batter clears box to allow runner to score winning run. Is batter still required to go touch for first under this situation? Could he be called out for abandonment for celebrating the win instead?
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Since working from home and sooo bored... I read the rule that abandonment occurs only after the runner reaches 1st or after 2 strikes. There is no wording for abandonment on the batter runner... 8.4.1.i is the batter runner section that I think you may refer to.
8.4.1.i on a dropped third strike, he gives up by entering the bench or dugout area, or with two outs he does not attempt to reach first base before all infielders leave the diamond at the end of the half-inning;
This section mentions abandonment but addresses a runner - not a batter runner, thus must have touched 1st base.
8.4.2.p A runner is out when ... after at least touching first base, leaves the baseline, obviously abandoning his effort to touch the next base; or
NOTE: Any runner, after reaching first base, who leaves the baseline heading for the dugout or his defensive position believing that there is no further play, shall be declared out if the umpire judges the act of the runner to be considered abandoning his efforts to run the bases.
If I were doing that game... I would high tail it off the field before an appeal could be made. (kidding) I would have a hard time calling the batter out ... I do not think that is the correct call.
Thanks NewUmpire I think it is an interesting situation. If you call him out (If he enters the dugout) Holey Snikies. I don't know if the defensive coach would appeal !!!
The ball is live, once the runner from 3rd scores the game is over. It does not matter what happens to the batter/runner in this scenario unless he was called out before the runner on 3rd crossed home.
https://community.hsbaseballwe...88#58602533065587188
Thank you! Do you have a place I could look up that ruling?
4.09 covers scoring and the exceptions with regard to scoring. Your scenario is not covered here as the batter/runner does not precede the scoring runner and the bases were not loaded. Even on appeal the run should count as the batter/runner could only be considered to abandon his attempt to reach 1st base after the winning run had scored. In addition, there is no rule that states the batter/runner is required to reach 1st to complete "the play" unless the bases are loaded.
4.09 – HOW A TEAM SCORES
(a) One run shall be scored each time a runner legally advances to and touches first, second, third, and home base before three players are retired to end the inning.
EXCEPTIONS: A run is not scored if the runner advances to home base during a play in which the third out is made (1) by the batter-runner before touching first base; (2) by any runner being forced out; or (3) by a preceding runner who is declared out because that runner failed to touch one of the bases (appeal play).
A.R. – One out, Jones on third, Smith on first and Brown flies out to right field for the second out. Jones tags up and scores after the catch. Smith attempted to return to first but the right fielder’s throw beat Smith to the base for the third out. But Jones scored before the throw to catch Smith reached first base. Hence, Jones’ run counts. It was not a force play.
(b) When the winning run is scored in the last half-inning of a regulation game, or in the last half of an extra inning, as the result of a base on balls, hit batter, or any other play with the bases full which forces the runner on third to advance, the umpire shall not declare the game ended until the runner forced to advance from third has touched home base and the batter-runner has touched first base.
After sleeping on this … what would happen … no runners on .. 3/1 count swing and miss. Batter loses track of count and returns to the dugout. As an umpire … I say … son that's only 2 strikes … don't you want another chance? Chances are I do that before he leaves the field... but even if he did … batter returns and finishes the at bat. I don't see much difference.
Now a batter-runner on a walk cannot be forced out. A walk grants the batter-runner free passage to first. I am not even sure there is an appeal there.
Hope I never come across this situation.
NewUmpire posted:After sleeping on this … what would happen … no runners on .. 3/1 count swing and miss. Batter loses track of count and returns to the dugout. As an umpire … I say … son that's only 2 strikes … don't you want another chance? Chances are I do that before he leaves the field... but even if he did … batter returns and finishes the at bat. I don't see much difference.
Now a batter-runner on a walk cannot be forced out. A walk grants the batter-runner free passage to first. I am not even sure there is an appeal there.
Hope I never come across this situation.
I can't find anything in the rules that would cause the batter to be out. There is no rule that going into the dugout makes one "out". He has not concluded his AB and can't abandon an attempt at a base he is not yet entitled to take. So, in this case nothing happens. The count is 3/2 and the player should be summoned back to the box. Refusal to get back into the box is a totally separate issue.
22and25 posted:The ball is live, once the runner from 3rd scores the game is over. It does not matter what happens to the batter/runner in this scenario unless he was called out before the runner on 3rd crossed home.
This is NOT correct, because no runs can score on a play if the batter-runner is called out before reaching 1st base. Timing of the runner from 3rd is irrelevant in this case.
T_Thomas posted:22and25 posted:The ball is live, once the runner from 3rd scores the game is over. It does not matter what happens to the batter/runner in this scenario unless he was called out before the runner on 3rd crossed home.
This is NOT correct, because no runs can score on a play if the batter-runner is called out before reaching 1st base. Timing of the runner from 3rd is irrelevant in this case.
Show us a rule that makes the batter/runner out. He is entitled to 1st base, he was walked. I can't find any rule addressing abandonment before passing 1st base. There is no rule that a walked batter/runner has to touch 1st base before the winning run can score unless the bases are loaded as noted in 4.09 b.
So what exact basis would the opposing coach base his appeal. The batter/runner is entitled to 1st base but has no obligation to go there if the winning run just scored and ended the game.
Hey, I never said the batter was out, because I'm not sure about the proper ruling on that. I just said that if the batter-runner would be called out, the run would not count. Timing has nothing to do with the answer.
I was going to post the question on an umpire forum that I follow, but someone already beat me to it.
Everyone has gone crazy; it must be the virus!
The game is over when the runner scores from 3rd (not forced) and therefore what the batter does after that is meaningless.
Note the extra verbiage regarding ending the game: "any other play with the bases full which forces the runner on third to advance". This does not apply in the case being discussed.
ABSORBER posted:Everyone has gone crazy; it must be the virus!
The game is over when the runner scores from 3rd (not forced) and therefore what the batter does after that is meaningless.
Note the extra verbiage regarding ending the game: "any other play with the bases full which forces the runner on third to advance". This does not apply in the case being discussed.
100% correct - if the wild pitch is not also Ball 4.
But it gets murky when the WP is Ball 4. The batter isn't a batter, he's now a batter-runner, who is treated completely different under the rules.
So let me get this straight. If with the winning run on third base, the batter singles, the runner from third scores. It seems that some are saying game over the batter runner does not have to touch first base? It must be the virus 
T_Thomas posted:Hey, I never said the batter was out, because I'm not sure about the proper ruling on that. I just said that if the batter-runner would be called out, the run would not count. Timing has nothing to do with the answer.
I was going to post the question on an umpire forum that I follow, but someone already beat me to it.
The original question has everything to do with timing. The OP asked what if the batter/runner was called out on appeal for abandoning his effort to take 1st base. My original point was, in this specific scenario, it does not matter as the game ends when the winning run crossed the plate as the ball is live.
That is 100% incorrect.
If the batter-runner is called out on appeal for not reaching 1st base safely, the run does not score.
T_Thomas posted:ABSORBER posted:Everyone has gone crazy; it must be the virus!
The game is over when the runner scores from 3rd (not forced) and therefore what the batter does after that is meaningless.
Note the extra verbiage regarding ending the game: "any other play with the bases full which forces the runner on third to advance". This does not apply in the case being discussed.
100% correct - if the wild pitch is not also Ball 4.
But it gets murky when the WP is Ball 4. The batter isn't a batter, he's now a batter-runner, who is treated completely different under the rules.
It's really not murky at all. Rule 4 addresses all of the possible scenarios. Bases loaded the batter/runner must touch 1st before the run can be counted. Other than bases loaded the runner is inconsequential as he is not out and there is basically no rule under which he could be declared out to nullify the run.
This is certainly a better argument than saying that the winning run scores on a time play when the runner crosses the plate.
POLOGREEN posted:So let me get this straight. If with the winning run on third base, the batter singles, the runner from third scores. It seems that some are saying game over the batter runner does not have to touch first base? It must be the virus
Totally different scenario, I don't see anyone saying what you suggest. In your scenario the runner from 3rd could cross home and be in the dugout eating a sandwich but his run does not count until the batter/runner is safe at 1st base. Assuming there are two outs when all of this happened. Less than two outs and the batter/runner is irrelevant.
T_Thomas posted:This is certainly a better argument than saying that the winning run scores on a time play when the runner crosses the plate.
It was correct in its original form, just not supported with the rule citations. The game ended when that runner crossed the plate as he was free to do in a live ball scenario.
22 and 25 I agree, what I am saying the batter now the B/R HAS to touch first for the run to be counted!!!
POLOGREEN posted:So let me get this straight. If with the winning run on third base, the batter singles, the runner from third scores. It seems that some are saying game over the batter runner does not have to touch first base? It must be the virus
Yes, you may want to get checked. ;-)
Totally different scenario as someone previously stated in their reply.
POLOGREEN posted:22 and 25 I agree, what I am saying the batter now the B/R HAS to touch first for the run to be counted!!!
Under your scenario of a batted ball in fair territory scoring the runner from 3rd, you are correct if there are two outs (which you didn't specify), he would have to take first safely to count the run. If there is less than two outs it won't matter if the batter/runner is forced out at 1st base.
The OP starts with Two Outs
POLOGREEN posted:The OP starts with Two Outs
You seemed to be laying out your own scenario by stating runner on 3rd and batter hits a single. It was not clear you were assuming all of the conditions within the OP as you restated all but the number of outs and had the ball put in play.
Sorry
Forget the man on 3rd for a moment … in any situation, can a batter/runner be put out when walked before he touches 1st base?
Reading all of rule 8 and putting some things together...
8.1.1 When a batter becomes a runner...
c. an intentional base on balls is awarded or a 4th ball is called by the umpire
8.2
1. an advancing runner must touch 1 2 3 H in order ...
5. If a runner who misses any base ... desires to return to touch the base must do so immediately
Penalty: For failure to touch a base (advancing or returning) ... the runner may be called out if an appeal is made by the defensive team ... on the last play of the game an appeal can be made until the umpire(s) leave the field of play.
So … In this case the batter / runner coud be called out on appeal. The question is ... is that a force play?
8.2.6.k
… With 2 out, if the base missed was the first to which the batter or runner was forced to advance no runs would score. …
Crazy - but now I think if appealed, the batter / runner would be out - run would not score.
Then all hell breaks loose.
Yes, taking the man off 3rd base simplifies the logic.
So what happens if the first batter of the game takes Ball 4, high-fives all his teammates, rips his shirt off, and goes to the locker room for a beer shower? Is he declared out? When?
Under appeal procedures 8.2.6.d.2
A runner may not return to touch a missed base if … he has left the field of play.
So I am going to say … when he crosses the boundary to dead ball territory.
NewUmpire posted:Under appeal procedures 8.2.6.d.2
A runner may not return to touch a missed base if … he has left the field of play.
So I am going to say … when he crosses the boundary to dead ball territory.
That's some tortured logic, but I can see the path you took to get there via your post before this one. How could celebrating on the field be deemed leaving the field of play? The rule also says that an appeal can happen up to the point the umpires leave "the field of play". So has the umpire left the field of play when they all cross into "dead ball territory"? I think logically you would define leaving the field of play as going through a gate, entirely off the field, not just into foul territory. So if the umpire is still in the field of play, the celebrating player would be also, at least in the OP scenario of celebrating on the field.
Further, an appeal would assume the umpire made the call that the run scored and the game was over. In that case, would he call any runner out that left to celebrate after he called the game? No, he would install them back onto their respective base to correct his mistake. One would have to assume that if he called the game when the run scored, causing the winning team to launch a celebration, that he would then correct his mistake completely.
Agreed. So back up a step?
What if he takes ball 4, does a Joey Bautista bat-flip, and sits down on the foul line? Everyone will try to make him go to 1B, but what if he refuses? Offensive coach should have authority to enter a sub to go to first base, and all is well. But what if it's a 23 inning game and he has no available subs and Joey is still sitting on the foul line watching Haley Cruse Tik-Toks? How long then before he's declared out?
So - back to the OP...
IF the defensive team is quick enough to make an appeal before the umpires leave the field, the umpires should just direct the batter-runner to touch 1B. IF the batter-runner is already in the dugout at time of appeal, 3rd Out, No Run Play On.
Problem solved.
T_Thomas posted:Agreed. So back up a step?
What if he takes ball 4, does a Joey Bautista bat-flip, and sits down on the foul line? Everyone will try to make him go to 1B, but what if he refuses? Offensive coach should have authority to enter a sub to go to first base, and all is well. But what if it's a 23 inning game and he has no available subs and Joey is still sitting on the foul line watching Haley Cruse Tik-Toks? How long then before he's declared out?
So - back to the OP...
IF the defensive team is quick enough to make an appeal before the umpires leave the field, the umpires should just direct the batter-runner to touch 1B. IF the batter-runner is already in the dugout at time of appeal, 3rd Out, No Run Play On.
Problem solved.
Agreed The rule is if the B/R does not touch first but enters the dugout....HE IS OUT!!!!
NewUmpire posted:Forget the man on 3rd for a moment … in any situation, can a batter/runner be put out when walked before he touches 1st base?
Reading all of rule 8 and putting some things together...
8.1.1 When a batter becomes a runner...
c. an intentional base on balls is awarded or a 4th ball is called by the umpire
8.2
1. an advancing runner must touch 1 2 3 H in order ...
5. If a runner who misses any base ... desires to return to touch the base must do so immediately
Penalty: For failure to touch a base (advancing or returning) ... the runner may be called out if an appeal is made by the defensive team ... on the last play of the game an appeal can be made until the umpire(s) leave the field of play.
So … In this case the batter / runner coud be called out on appeal. The question is ... is that a force play?
8.2.6.k
… With 2 out, if the base missed was the first to which the batter or runner was forced to advance no runs would score. …
Crazy - but now I think if appealed, the batter / runner would be out - run would not score.
Then all hell breaks loose.
I Absolutely agree!!!!
Of course all of this conjecture assumes that a coach has read the various parts of the rule and case books (and doesn't follow the logic in this posting). ... Hopefully I never, ever, have to hold that end of the "muddy" stick.
OK, so Pologreen, is this something that actually happened? If so, how did it play out, what was your role, etc.?
Just a hypothetical, have to think baseball
