2-seam fastball

Even though a 4 seamer can be thrown a bit harder the relative lack of movement makes it generally more hittable than a 2 seamer. The 2 seamer is usually the primary fastball thrown and then the 4 seamer becomes effective because it is a bit of a change in speed. The slider and 12-6 provide change in speed and movement from either the 4 seamer or the 2 seamer just as well. Interestingly, a tight slider has a spin more similar to a 2 seamer than a 4 seamer and can be more difficult to pick up after a 2 seamer.

A better way to ask your question might be, Is the 4 seamer at only a couple mph faster than a 2 seamer worth throwing?

CADad - Yes, they both have different speeds and movements. The 4 seamer is meant to be thrown high, while the 2 seamer is thrown low.

Ah Ha, The old 2-seam fastball myth. The two and four seam fastballs "today" are the same speed, because all pitches are clocked out of the hand. Years ago when most every scout used the Decatur Ray Gun, it got the pitches as they crossed the plate, and the good sinker (2-seam) would be 2-3 mph slower than a 4-seam. The other thing that used to happen was that a high fastball would get a slower reading than a low fastball.........why? Well, the fastball down in the zone would be blocked out by the Ump and the catcher, and the last time the gun would see the ball was about halfway to the plate. The gun would see the high fastball all the way into the catchers glove.

Now, as far as a fastball sinking........a 2-seamer will sink, only if you release the ball with your hand and wrist rotating right to left. You have to create the spin on the ball, as it wont just sink because you grip it with the 2-seams. A sinker is just the same as a screwball, only it does not break quite as much as a screwball, and the 2-seam grip makes it easier to throw and release the pitch.

CADad,

O.K. but.....the 4-seam is the only pitch that "hops" or moves up in the strike zone. I realize this is only for those pitchers that can pitch above 95 mph -("the equilibrium speed of a baseball free falling", according to The Physics of Baseball, by Adair). All the other pitches move downward, i.e. curve, slider, change-up, 2-seam. Of course, for most everybody the 4-seam moves downward too, but, less downward than a 2-seam. Just talking here..... Do you follow my logic. The reason for my asking this, is that although my kids find it alot of fun learning all the pitches, the actual pitching/batter set-up needs to be taught. So, you can see where I am going with this......

For a righty at the plate, a crisply delivered two-seamer is a bat-shatterer (wood of course). Great pitch and not difficult to learn (but more difficult to 'master').

I don't know about Smokey Joe Wood, but Palmer did not throw sinkers, and Lee was a junk baller. 4-seam fastballs don't hop either. If we are to teach our kids the various fastballs and grips, we should do it the right way, and not with old wives tales. I have seen hundreds of young pitchers throw 2-seam fastballs that are straight as strings. To make a ball move, you have to do it, as it won't happen just because you grip it with the seams.

Yeh, your probably right about Smoltz and Koufax's fastballs (they don't rise do they). Of course, your right and everyone else is wrong. Also, the tape I have of the Spaceman explaining his 2-seamer, well, I can't explain that either.

Savannah,



My understanding is that a ball thrown at 90 mph, with perfect backspin, will rise 5 inches because of the lift developed. Like an airplane wing. I know that studies have shown this. The real question is can a pitcher throw a ball with perfect backspin? "The Head Game", by Roger Kahn is where I got my information.

The following is a quote from that book. "Adair calculates that a fb gripped across the stitches and thrown at 90+ mph hops about 5 inches in the last 15 feet of flight. The high hard one is not only hard, it hops almost half a foot. How can a baseball move upward against gravity? Another question suggests the answer to that one. How can an airplane fly? The fb leaves a pitchers hand with very strong backspin, and the backspin imparted to the stitches creats lift. Broadly speaking, the stitches are the fb's wings. Further models show that sinkers truly sink and split finger fb's drop abruptly."

Some of those quoting Adair need to look at Figure 3-3 in his book and read more carefully.

The ball is on a downward arc all the way to the plate. The four seam just has less downward arc. It does not rise relative to the ground.

And from p. 38 "If the baseball fast ball falls nearly 3 feet on its way from pitcher to plate, how can thoughtful, intelligent players possibly believe it might rise? Here we have a matter of perception. ... Part of the reason for the misunderstanding among players about the "rising fast ball" stems from the foreshortened view of the ball trajectory from the pitcher's mound, the catcher's box, and the batter's box. If the player were to watch the fast ball from the on-deck circle, he would see it fall a lot (about 1 foot in 8) as it crosses the batter at the waist. The falling trajectory of the fast ball can also be seen occasionally on TV when the cameraman chooses to show the ball crossing the plate as seen by a camera at right angles to the line from pitcher to plate."

The four seam does not rise relative to the ground. It just drops less.

A properly thrown two seam will tail inside (as thrown by a RHP to a RH batter).

Not all pitchers get good movement on pitches, as BBScout mentions. And some that do get good movement don't really know how they accomplish that. Probably has something to do with finger pressure. And often the threequarter arm slot seems to provide more movement.

The two seam can be a great pitch. It is one grip. Several fastball grips should be used to be able to show different movement to the batter, thus aiding in deception and keeping them off balance.

To get more tail downward, take a two seam grip. Then rotate the ball back toward the palm until the fingers are in the middle of the bare leather. It looks like a two seam but is a little slower (and thus tails down more) because the fingertips don't engage the seams at release.

Texas, I agree. Of course it doesn't actually rise. However, if a batter gets used to a certain perception of a ball falling at a certain rate and then the 4 seam is thrown, it will drop less relative to the average fastball.(Provided the grip and backspin are correct.) That is why someone with a good 4 seam has a lot of people swing under the high 4 seam fb. The physics still apply. That is why the appearance of a hop.

A 2 seam fb that only tails in is not nearly as good as one that sinks and dives. A fb that tails only will be less effective against batters that one that does both. That is the problem with Lowe of Boston. When he gets sink and tail, he is untouchable. He gets hammered when it only tails. Too many balls that tail only will come back over the plate to righties when thrown out side and gets hit pretty hard.

A pitcher that can have both is very effective. Especially when the release point is the same.

I think that if a pitcher is just looking for tail on the fastball then a close to sidearm fastball with a 4 seam grip will give them the most tail. I'm guessing that Randy Johnson throws a few of these.

Texan has given a good explanation of the "rising fastball".

I don't believe a pitcher has to be able to throw 95 mph to throw an effective high fastball although it certainly helps. Jarrod Washburn tends to be a fly ball pitcher staying up in the zone and he maxes out at about 91 or 92. When he manages to change speeds on his fastball well he can be very effective up in the zone.

Some pitchers manage to get more spin on the ball whatever the grip even at lower speeds.

I also agree with bbscout. Just holding the ball along the seams will not result in significant movement, although the ball will tend to drop a bit more than a 4 seamer if thrown overhand. You can get some movement by having one finger on a seam and the other off a seam. However, the most effective moving fastball in baseball is probably Rivera's cutter and if you look at clips of his release it looks very close to a hard slider release.

Most younger pitchers (pre-HS) need to start with a 4 seamer and once they get command of that start to experiment with 2 seam grips to see what works for them.

Texan, Thank you for explaining about the 4-seam fastball.

Yes. No one disputes that from the mound to the catchers glove, the ball's overall trajectory will fall or arc down. The hop or rise is from the magnus effect creating the air flow pattern which makes the ball fall less at the end of the flight verse every other thrown ball. Adair addresses this. I am not sure why people have such a hard time with this, yet, they are willing to accept that a 12-6 curveball will arc down more once the magnus effect creates the flow pattern from it's top spin at the end of the flight.

In regards to the 95 mph figure. That is the speed at which a dropped ball, no matter how high, will not exceed. Thus it is possible, for the magnus effect to actually cause a rise against gravity. As long as the back spin and speed remain constant above 95 mph (taking into account 14.7 psi at 70 F).

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Originally posted by Savannah:
In regards to the 95 mph figure. That is the speed at which a dropped ball, no matter how high, will not exceed. Thus it is possible, for the magnus effect to actually cause a rise against gravity. As long as the back spin and speed remain constant above 95 mph (taking into account 14.7 psi at 70 F).

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Of course, a 95mph fastball or a fastball at whatever speed does not maintain the velocity on its way to home plate.......it starts slowing down.Illusion of a rise or hop?...maybe, but by the time it reaches home plate it is not rising or hopping, it is going down.

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Originally posted by Savannah:
Yes. No one disputes that from the mound to the catchers glove, the ball's overall trajectory will fall or arc down. The hop or rise is from the magnus effect creating the air flow pattern which makes the ball fall less at the end of the flight verse every other thrown ball. Adair addresses this. I am not sure why people have such a hard time with this, yet, they are willing to accept that a 12-6 curveball will arc down more once the magnus effect creates the flow pattern from it's top spin at the end of the flight.

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So what is the problem here? I don't understand.

Savannah,
When a baseball is dropping at 95 mph it reaches it's terminal velocity where the drag on the ball cancels out the acceleration due to gravity.

When a pitcher throws a pitch at 95 mph the drag is acting opposite to the path of the ball while the gravity is acting down. The force acting upward is the differential pressure due to the spin on the ball. Two different things. The ball does not rise because it is going 95 mph. The ball could potentially rise if it was spinning fast enough but no pitcher can put that much spin on the ball. Two effects happen as a pitcher throws the ball faster. 1. The ball has less time to drop. 2. The harder the ball is thrown, the more drag there is so that the differential pressure due to a given amount of spin is greater. However, there is nothing magical about 95 mph other than the drag curve starting to level out so that it gets harder and harder to throw the ball faster than 95 mph.

bbscout,
That's the first time I've ever heard that the speed difference between a 2 seam and 4 seam fastball might be a product of the measurement rather than an actual speed difference.

It would be interesting to see a large set of pitchers throwing 2 seam and 4 seam fastballs and measuring the speeds of the pitches. Sounds like a good 8th grade science project for my son.

What is the speed threshold where the ball develops the thin boundary layer of turbulance that actually reduces drag?

Whatever that threshold is, I'd think that once crossed, a ball would tend to loose less velocity over the 60' to home plate than a pitch thrown under that thresold, i.e., once a player can throw hard enough to get over that threshold, his fastball would seems to carry more 'pop' to home plate as it decelerates less due to drag.

pbonesteele,
The drag coefficient for a baseball begins to drop off relative to a smooth ball at about 55 mph. That is where I'd say it goes turbulent. The drop in drag coefficient is the steepest from about 65 mph to 75 mph then it begins to very gradually level out but is still pretty steep. It starts to level out more quickly at 85 mph and is levelling out pretty rapidly by 95 mph.

The drag is a function of the drag coefficient and the velocity squared. Interestingly, from 65 mph to about 85 or 90 mph the drop off in drag coefficient roughly makes up for the increase in the velocity squared term. As you start to get above 90 mph the velocity squared term begins to dominate and it gets harder and harder for a pitcher to throw much faster.

It is interesting to note that where the drag curve first starts to get shallower is near where your typical, average ability HS pitcher maxes out. Where the drop in drag coefficient starts shallowing out even more is where your typical college pitcher maxes out and where it starts getting really shallow is where most major league pitchers max out.

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Originally posted by CADad:
bbscout,
That's the first time I've ever heard that the speed difference between a 2 seam and 4 seam fastball might be a product of the measurement rather than an actual speed difference.

It would be interesting to see a large set of pitchers throwing 2 seam and 4 seam fastballs and measuring the speeds of the pitches. Sounds like a good 8th grade science project for my son.

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CADad, I have done it many times with pitchers in the bullpen. Have them get loose and then alternate throwing 2 and 4 seam fastballs. There is no difference in the velocity, as the gun is reading the pitch out of the hand (or very close to it). When we use the ray reading (over the plate) then the difference is from 4 to 7 mph slower.

This was done with guys throwing between 84 and 91 mph out of the hand.

bbscout,
Thanks. Good info. My son could use the gun at the cages and also put a speedchek unit behind the plate to see the differences on each pitch. His 6th grade project was on using weighted balls. It was good enough to get him invited to the county science fair.

From: http://theory.uwinnipeg.ca/mod_tech/node68.html

Another example of Bernoulli's principle at work is in the lift of aircraft wings and the motion of ``curve balls'' in baseball. In both cases the design is such as to create a speed differential of the flowing air past the object on the top and the bottom - for aircraft wings this comes from the movement of the flaps, and for the baseball it is the presence of ridges. Such a speed differential leads to a pressure difference between the top and bottom of the object, resulting in a net force being exerted, either upwards or downwards.

The air flow over the top of a thrown baseball is faster than the airflow underneath due to the spin and turbulence of the ridges created by the baseballs movement through the air. This pressure difference can cause the baseball to rise if there is a complementary airflow to assist the ball to overcome the effects of drag as it pushes the air out in front which acts as a negative component to the speed.

So to say the ball rises is not incorrect.

However, the 2-seam and 4-seam pitches are both learned with a baseball which is painted one-half black. This exercise is necessary to make sure that the shoulder, elbow and wrist are being maintained at the exact perpendicularity to a 90 degree plane which is a requirement for velocity and maximum movement.

The sinking effect is achieved by moving the thumb from underneath the ball to the side of the baseball. Secondly all movement is achieved by regulating the amount of pressure of index finger and the middle finger of the throwing hand at and during the time of release.

In no instance is the wrist or elbow involved in the rotation of the ball as they are both maintained in the 90 degree perpendicularity plane...and only the natural release of the ball is allowed at the end of the throw to alleviate any pressure to the elbow called "pronation".

PiC,
To say that the ball rises is incorrect. The ball doesn't get enough lift from the spin to overcome the acceleration due to gravity.

Currently, I am waiting for all of my guys throwing 75-76 to be able to get those balls to drop. J/K Can I ask something? I saw the one spot during the series or maybe the playoffs where they were showing pitches and they showed the sinker. Didn't they show the pitcher gripping the ball off of the seams? At least, that is what we are having our kids do. Maybe I'm messing up!

Coach....

Some pitchers throw the 2-seamer with their fingers on the seams, others with fingers to the left or right of the seams.....and some vary their 2-seam grips. I always try to encourage pitchers to experiment with grips.

As for the physics that y'all are discussing, I'll leave that for the rest of you. I want pitchers who can vary speed and movement on fastballs and hit their spots.

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Originally posted by CADad:
PiC,
To say that the ball rises is incorrect. The ball doesn't get enough lift from the spin to overcome the acceleration due to gravity.

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I won't argue the case for Bernoulli's principle since the scientific methods in their discovery of the mathematics and physics of a thrown baseball are explained for anyone to read and understand. Statements to the contrary of the results create a burden of proof of the contrarian.

PiC,
Since you profess to understand Bernoulli's principle so well please tell us just how much lift is generated by a spinning baseball. Let's say a baseball moving at 90 mph and rotating 6 to 12 at 600 rpm.

Rising Fastball

From "Does a curve ball really curve?"
" A ball can be made to curve in a vertical plane as well. In fact, the trajectory of any thrown pitch has a natural downward curvature due to the force of gravity. However, by changing the spin direction, a pitcher can increase or decrease the curvature. For example, when a ball is thrown with a topspin, the Magnus force will act toward the ground, causing it to curve more sharply. If the ball is thrown with a backspin, the Magnus force will point away from the ground, causing the ball to curve less. The latter pitch produces what is often called a rising fastball. However, the laws of aerodynamics tell us that for a baseball to physically rise (that is, curve upward) as it approaches the batter, the Magnus force would have to be greater than the weight of the ball, and the rate of spin required to generate this much force is far beyond the ability of any pitcher. Thus, the rising fastball is an optical illusion. The baseball simply falls less than the batter expects it to. "

The following article shows that the maximum lift that can be achieved by pitchers approaches half the weight of the ball. In other words a pitcher with a good "rising" fastball can get the ball to drop half as much as it would solely due to gravity.

Spinning Balls

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Originally posted by CoachB25:
Currently, I am waiting for all of my guys throwing 75-76 to be able to get those balls to drop. J/K Can I ask something? I saw the one spot during the series or maybe the playoffs where they were showing pitches and they showed the sinker. Didn't they show the pitcher gripping the ball off of the seams? At least, that is what we are having our kids do. Maybe I'm messing up!

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The secret to the sinker is the ability to create accelerated downward movement by changing the rotational plane using the rotation of the ridges of the baseball.

The 2-seam sinker is achieved by gripping the baseball with the index and middle finger absolutely together on top of the baseball. However, the ball must be toed, like an airplane that is flying somewhat crabbing into the wind in order to maintain a flight path against a breach. This toed affect is achieved by turning the baseball about 1/4th of an inch inwardly so that the horizontal plane is rotated more toward the thumb location on the lower side of the baseball. This will automatically seat the ball so that the middle finger is at the very top of the outer ridge and the index finger is somewhat, slightly elevated off the ball.

The ball is thrown like a FB in a 12 to 6 plane (elbow at the ear level) and the hand is maintained at an absolutely 90 degree perpendicular plane to the ground. The ball will release automatically with the seams biting in a slightly toed and downward movement. Depending on the velocity 80+ the break can be very late which is the desired effect that the pitcher wants.

The only thing needed is to have position players that can field ground balls...and that is where the crux of the total success of a ground ball pitcher is determined.

Coach B25,
I almost always gripped the ball along the seams and threw a heavy fastball but nobody ever told me I was throwing a sinker.

I'd recommend trying a few different grips for yourself and then letting the kids try them to see what works. My son and I played with the one finger on a seam and one finger off. We were able get a bit of tail in either direction using that approach. Both fingers off the seams might work the best to get sink. It is something the kids have to play with and then perfect over time.

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Originally posted by CADad:
PiC,
Since you profess to understand Bernoulli's principle so well please tell us just how much lift is generated by a spinning baseball. Let's say a baseball moving at 90 mph and rotating 6 to 12 at 600 rpm.

http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Rising%20fastball

From "Does a curve ball really curve?"
" A ball can be made to curve in a vertical plane as well. In fact, the trajectory of any thrown pitch has a natural downward curvature due to the force of gravity. However, by changing the spin direction, a pitcher can increase or decrease the curvature. For example, when a ball is thrown with a topspin, the Magnus force will act toward the ground, causing it to curve more sharply. If the ball is thrown with a backspin, the Magnus force will point away from the ground, causing the ball to curve less. The latter pitch produces what is often called a rising fastball. However, the laws of aerodynamics tell us that for a baseball to physically rise (that is, curve upward) as it approaches the batter, the Magnus force would have to be greater than the weight of the ball, and the rate of spin required to generate this much force is far beyond the ability of any pitcher. Thus, the rising fastball is an optical illusion. The baseball simply falls less than the batter expects it to. "

The following article shows that the maximum lift that can be achieved by pitchers approaches half the weight of the ball. In other words a pitcher with a good "rising" fastball can get the ball to drop half as much as it would solely due to gravity.

http://carini.physics.indiana.edu/E105/spinning-balls.html

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From:
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/pber.html

After reading the scientific work on Bernoulli go to Kutta's works on the air lift characteristics of a cylindrical object at:

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/fluids/kutta.html#c1

Like all aerodynamic lift, this seems a bit mysterious, but it can be looked at in terms of a redirection of the air motion. If the cylinder traps some air in a boundary layer at the cylinder surface and carries it around with it, shedding it downward, then it has given some of the air a downward momentum. That can act to give the cylinder an upward momentum in accordance with the principle of conservation of momentum. Another approach is to say that you have exerted a downward component of force on the air and by Newton's 3rd law there must be an upward force on the cylinder. Yet another approach is to say that the top of the cylinder is assisting the airstream, speeding up the flow on the top of the cylinder. Then by the Bernoulli equation, the pressure on the top of the cylinder is diminished, giving an effective lift.

No matter the plane the boundary layer opposite the side of turbulence which is truncated prematurely creates upward lift characteristics.

PiC, relative to the ground the fastball will not rise - regardless of the Magnus force and aerodynamic effects. Adair has a great analysis and discussion of this.

Some fastballs will not drop as much on the way to the plate. But they will not rise.

PiC,
I did my graduate work in Engineering Mechanics. I have designed aircraft and was a project scientist on the National Aerospace Plane working with some of the top aerodynamicists in the country. I understand how lift works. You might want to quit quoting things you don't understand.

When an airplane is descending in order to land the wings are still generating lift. They just aren't generating enough lift to overcome the weight of the plane. The same is true of a baseball. The spin generates lift and in the case of an overhand 4 seam fastball the force due to lift is less than half the weight (force due to gravity) of the ball. You don't seem to understand that generating lift does not mean that a ball is going to rise. Lift is a force. The force due to gravity, which is called weight is larger than the force due to lift so the ball goes down.

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Originally posted by CADad:
PiC,
I did my graduate work in Engineering Mechanics. I have designed aircraft and was a project scientist on the National Aerospace Plane working with some of the top aerodynamicists in the country. I understand how lift works. You might want to quit quoting things you don't understand.

When an airplane is descending in order to land the wings are still generating lift. They just aren't generating enough lift to overcome the weight of the plane. The same is true of a baseball. The spin generates lift and in the case of an overhand 4 seam fastball the force due to lift is less than half the weight (force due to gravity) of the ball. You don't seem to understand that generating lift does not mean that a ball is going to rise. Lift is a force. The force due to gravity, which is called weight is larger than the force due to lift so the ball goes down.

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Did R & D research in the development of the Bernoulli Disk Drive.

Don't assume I don't know what I'm talking about...

We were speaking in terms of lift...all objects are effected by gravity...da!

No. You were talking about lift and ignoring gravity. We were talking about a fastball rising or not rising. Determining that involves both lift and gravity. It is incorrect to say that a fastball rises.

Link to a Popular Mechanics article on the mechanics of the fastball. Includes a separate piece on "The Myth of the Rising Fastball" half-way down the page.

http://popularmechanics.com/science/sports/2004/5/mechanics_of_fastball/index2.phtml

Like CADad, I have a background in engineering. And PicC, either you are not expressing yourself with clarity or you lack an understanding of applied physics.

Texan & CaDad

As to clarity, the info I have stated and presented is backed by data from well known scientific websites.

All we have from you is your opinion as argument and some encyclopedia website which is nothing more than more opinion.

The information I have presented speaks for itself and the science on lift is well known to any first year physics student.

To argue further would be circular as I will simply present the same information which you choose to ignore...so be it.

To our resident scientists, how much would the dynamics change if the pitcher were throwing directly into a 30 mph wind?

It seems that if the pitcher could throw to a target at the same height as their release point, the dynamics would also change.

I remember as a hard throwing short stop, I used to like getting on top of the ball from deep short and throwing into the wind. If the ball didn’t actually rise, it certainly carried well and appeared to.