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Have only one swing but let other factors such as the count, the quality of pitcher, the umpire zone, the score, etc. dictate the size of the zone you are covering.
SBK:
“Have only one swing but let other factors such as the count, the quality of pitcher, the umpire zone, the score, etc. dictate the size of the zone you are covering.”
Great statement. I totally agree with everything, especially “one (fundamental) swing”. I do not believe that shortening it constitutes a whole new swing since the exact same swing mechanics are used).
Sorry that I am short on time (Spring & Summer are my busy season with my “real job”).
The following is a copy of a reply that I made last December pertaining to a two-strike swing or approach. It was directed to a man named “Dmac” who claims to be a professional scout. And after reading 100 or so of his posts on various hitting topics, I believe him.
DMac:
I have great respect for your real world, knowledge of the game at the highest levels.
My thoughts pertaining to hitting with 2 strikes are as follows:
I teach the hitter that he must shorten his swing and expand his strike zone (even during 3-2). During fastball counts they should be trying to “loosen the stitches” or “hit the ball over the lights”, however when they get 2 strikes a new plate approach takes over. They should be aware of common “out pitches” and especially any that today’s pitcher and umpire have already shown/given.
This “shorter swing” for a middle or high schooler closely resembles that of a MLB hitter’s regular swing (short and tight). I also teach kids to use their “2 strike swing” if they need help executing a hit and run play or hitting behind the runner at 2b (I agree with you on the comments you made about hitting behind the runner, but for the sake of teaching and driving this point home for them (for their future coaches), I make them do it even with 1 out). I score it a "hit" in my score book if they move the runner and "two hits" if they also reach base.
Likewise I teach them to use their “2 strike swing” 100% of the time, “about once a month” when they face that dominating (MLB draftable), flame thrower who can also locate his off speed pitches. It seems to me that, this approach would also serve a lot of teams against Chinese Taipei in the Little League World Series each year. And my players still seem to hit a lot of home runs with 2 strikes.
As a baseball teacher, I made the decision to make this a true "fundamental" (mandatory) skill for EVERY 11-18 year old hitter I work with. Especially those high school power hitters who, during an 0-1 count would pull a ball 340 feet and 100 feet foul and then, like rql eluded to, miss the very next pitch-a curve in the dirt, or change up low and away, by 3 feet, because they expected to see another waist high, middle in, fast ball.
Lastly, I initially teach the following characteristics but allow each hitter the freedom to perform the over all skill his own way.
A. Crowd plate
B. Choke up
C. Open stance
D. More “quiet” stance
E. Shorten load
F. Shorten stride (or eliminate it)
G. Shorten swing
H. Think, “anything close (that’s low), must be put into play or at the very least, fouled off". Similar to Alex Cora’s 18 pitch at-bat last season.
THop
PS.
The only thing that I wanted to add to this is that with 2 strikes, a hitter is in a hole and he must hit the pitchers pitch (as long as it’s “close” and low). And he can still hit a home run, extra base hit or sac fly. But if he fails to do one of these, he can at least hit a grounder to the infield where 3 things can happen (2 of which are good).
1. Ground ball to an infielder
2. Ground ball that an infielder makes an error on
3. Ground ball that gets through the infield.
“Have only one swing but let other factors such as the count, the quality of pitcher, the umpire zone, the score, etc. dictate the size of the zone you are covering.”
Great statement. I totally agree with everything, especially “one (fundamental) swing”. I do not believe that shortening it constitutes a whole new swing since the exact same swing mechanics are used).
Sorry that I am short on time (Spring & Summer are my busy season with my “real job”).
The following is a copy of a reply that I made last December pertaining to a two-strike swing or approach. It was directed to a man named “Dmac” who claims to be a professional scout. And after reading 100 or so of his posts on various hitting topics, I believe him.
DMac:
I have great respect for your real world, knowledge of the game at the highest levels.
My thoughts pertaining to hitting with 2 strikes are as follows:
I teach the hitter that he must shorten his swing and expand his strike zone (even during 3-2). During fastball counts they should be trying to “loosen the stitches” or “hit the ball over the lights”, however when they get 2 strikes a new plate approach takes over. They should be aware of common “out pitches” and especially any that today’s pitcher and umpire have already shown/given.
This “shorter swing” for a middle or high schooler closely resembles that of a MLB hitter’s regular swing (short and tight). I also teach kids to use their “2 strike swing” if they need help executing a hit and run play or hitting behind the runner at 2b (I agree with you on the comments you made about hitting behind the runner, but for the sake of teaching and driving this point home for them (for their future coaches), I make them do it even with 1 out). I score it a "hit" in my score book if they move the runner and "two hits" if they also reach base.
Likewise I teach them to use their “2 strike swing” 100% of the time, “about once a month” when they face that dominating (MLB draftable), flame thrower who can also locate his off speed pitches. It seems to me that, this approach would also serve a lot of teams against Chinese Taipei in the Little League World Series each year. And my players still seem to hit a lot of home runs with 2 strikes.
As a baseball teacher, I made the decision to make this a true "fundamental" (mandatory) skill for EVERY 11-18 year old hitter I work with. Especially those high school power hitters who, during an 0-1 count would pull a ball 340 feet and 100 feet foul and then, like rql eluded to, miss the very next pitch-a curve in the dirt, or change up low and away, by 3 feet, because they expected to see another waist high, middle in, fast ball.
Lastly, I initially teach the following characteristics but allow each hitter the freedom to perform the over all skill his own way.
A. Crowd plate
B. Choke up
C. Open stance
D. More “quiet” stance
E. Shorten load
F. Shorten stride (or eliminate it)
G. Shorten swing
H. Think, “anything close (that’s low), must be put into play or at the very least, fouled off". Similar to Alex Cora’s 18 pitch at-bat last season.
THop
PS.
The only thing that I wanted to add to this is that with 2 strikes, a hitter is in a hole and he must hit the pitchers pitch (as long as it’s “close” and low). And he can still hit a home run, extra base hit or sac fly. But if he fails to do one of these, he can at least hit a grounder to the infield where 3 things can happen (2 of which are good).
1. Ground ball to an infielder
2. Ground ball that an infielder makes an error on
3. Ground ball that gets through the infield.
Why change anything?
The good hitters do not need to alter their swing just because of two strikes.
The batters approach as to where he wants to hit the ball will depend on circumstances--- score, number of outs, runners position etc.
The good hitters just tighten up their belt and and go for it
I still recall Reggie Jackson speaking on this topic and the fact he struck out so much--his answer was simple-- " better I strike out than hit into a double play--I will take my hacks -- If I strike out I only cost us one out--"
The good hitters do not need to alter their swing just because of two strikes.
The batters approach as to where he wants to hit the ball will depend on circumstances--- score, number of outs, runners position etc.
The good hitters just tighten up their belt and and go for it
I still recall Reggie Jackson speaking on this topic and the fact he struck out so much--his answer was simple-- " better I strike out than hit into a double play--I will take my hacks -- If I strike out I only cost us one out--"
Thop,
Good luck with your busy season. In my neighborhood they call it, “You got to make hay while the sun is shining”.
I will concede that Dmac’s advice is probably more effective for the vast majority of players. However for the minority of players that have the solid fundamentals that many of us here strive for such as Teach, Swing Buster, Blue Dog to name a few, they needn’t worry about changing their swing except for being aware of the current situation as I mentioned in my previous post.
Your friend Dmac even writes, “This “shorter swing” for a middle or high schooler closely resembles that of a MLB hitter’s regular swing (short and tight). Perhaps he should just teach his students this swing?
I do disagree with Dmacs stated philosophy, “During fastball counts they should be trying to “loosen the stitches” or “hit the ball over the lights”. While it may sound good in theory, telling a hitter this could problems. I would prefer they try to drive every pitch based on their controllable bat speed. If the location of the pitch and the timing of the batter dictate that the ball should be hit over the lights, then that's where it should go.
Perhaps if Dmac’s hitters wouldn’t be trying to do more than what they are capable of doing early in the count, they wouldn’t end up in his 2 strike defensive mode as often.
TR, writes, “Why change anything? The good hitters do not need to alter their swing just because of two strikes”. TR and I appear to see this exactly the same and that don’t always happen. Here’s to wishing a Happy Easter to TR and all on this most blessed weekend.
Good luck with your busy season. In my neighborhood they call it, “You got to make hay while the sun is shining”.
I will concede that Dmac’s advice is probably more effective for the vast majority of players. However for the minority of players that have the solid fundamentals that many of us here strive for such as Teach, Swing Buster, Blue Dog to name a few, they needn’t worry about changing their swing except for being aware of the current situation as I mentioned in my previous post.
Your friend Dmac even writes, “This “shorter swing” for a middle or high schooler closely resembles that of a MLB hitter’s regular swing (short and tight). Perhaps he should just teach his students this swing?
I do disagree with Dmacs stated philosophy, “During fastball counts they should be trying to “loosen the stitches” or “hit the ball over the lights”. While it may sound good in theory, telling a hitter this could problems. I would prefer they try to drive every pitch based on their controllable bat speed. If the location of the pitch and the timing of the batter dictate that the ball should be hit over the lights, then that's where it should go.
Perhaps if Dmac’s hitters wouldn’t be trying to do more than what they are capable of doing early in the count, they wouldn’t end up in his 2 strike defensive mode as often.
TR, writes, “Why change anything? The good hitters do not need to alter their swing just because of two strikes”. TR and I appear to see this exactly the same and that don’t always happen. Here’s to wishing a Happy Easter to TR and all on this most blessed weekend.
SBK, I agree completely........
SBK, The comments you are making are about THOPS statements, not Dmac's.I know that for sure 
SBK:
Thanks for the reply. For the record, I am not a friend of Dmac, as I have never met him. I only appreciate his knowledge of the game at the highest levels. And the quotes that you sighted were not made by Dmac but by me to him (I am truly challenged when it comes to typing and type settings).
I am truly here to serve and not be served and appreciate you and everyone else here who attempts to help today’s coaches and players. That’s my “agenda”.
Happy Easter Holidays as well, to you and yours.
THop
Thanks for the reply. For the record, I am not a friend of Dmac, as I have never met him. I only appreciate his knowledge of the game at the highest levels. And the quotes that you sighted were not made by Dmac but by me to him (I am truly challenged when it comes to typing and type settings).
I am truly here to serve and not be served and appreciate you and everyone else here who attempts to help today’s coaches and players. That’s my “agenda”.
Happy Easter Holidays as well, to you and yours.
THop
quote:Originally posted by bbscout:
SBK, The comments you are making are about THOPS statements, not Dmac's.I know that for sure
For darned sure!!
bbscout, thop, Teach & others,
Regarding attributing quotes to Dmac, I stand corrected. Thanks for clearing it up.
Regarding attributing quotes to Dmac, I stand corrected. Thanks for clearing it up.
I think that TR and others have made some great comments that really point out what many others are trying to get out of their players with a 2 strike count. "Take the correct swing." I know that when I explain to our hitters that we want to shorten up make solid contact in the zone that we are not changing our mechanics as much as trying to get them to understand the correct mindset of hitting with proper mechanics. Quick bat through the zone. Not taking the elongated long swing that usually accomplishes nothing. Most of our hitters learn that they hit the ball harder and more consistently with their "two strike" swing and actually learn that they should be swinging this way all of the time. Our goal is to limit movement be prepared to hit aggressively and to put the bat on the ball with authority. Otherwise known as "hitting". By the way, I am very glad to have found this site and enjoy all of the input that so many have to offer. I wish it hadn't taken me so long to find it!
Exact quote from Baseball Playbook by Ron Polk, pg 194.
"Be sure that emphasis is placed on the two strike prioroty which is not to strike out. Make the opponents make a play on the batter.
A. techniques are wide ranged here because it is important that swing or stance is not a drastic change from normal swing and stance. However, move closer to the plate, move up in the box, choke up or split grip, open the stance slightly, concentrate on solid contact with quick hands - do not overswing or power the ball, and think of driving the ball back up the middle.
B. A slight mental adjustment toward the size of the strike zone should be made. Widen the zone an inch and do not expect any sympathy on the cardinal sin of taking a called thrird strike.
C. Two strike swings should be practiced.
"Be sure that emphasis is placed on the two strike prioroty which is not to strike out. Make the opponents make a play on the batter.
A. techniques are wide ranged here because it is important that swing or stance is not a drastic change from normal swing and stance. However, move closer to the plate, move up in the box, choke up or split grip, open the stance slightly, concentrate on solid contact with quick hands - do not overswing or power the ball, and think of driving the ball back up the middle.
B. A slight mental adjustment toward the size of the strike zone should be made. Widen the zone an inch and do not expect any sympathy on the cardinal sin of taking a called thrird strike.
C. Two strike swings should be practiced.
Exact quote out of Teacherman's Book.
"Don't pay attention to stupid even if it's written down and published."
"Don't pay attention to stupid even if it's written down and published."
The swing is the swing.....One strike, two strikes, or fifteen strikes......Swing with your swing....Not one that is fabricated......Don't change anything.....Just hit the ball....... 
Matters not two strikes or one strike or no strikes---if you are a hitter you hit-- nothing changes
And, always stay as far back in the box as you can.....MLB hitters rub out the back chalk line for a reason......
Never open the stance......If you do, the advantage goes to the pitcher...... 
Teacherman:
"Exact quote out of Teacherman's Book. Don't pay attention to stupid even if it's written down and published."
Not trying to get the last word here, but would Ron Polk have an easier time coaching your team (and your hitting students) than you would coaching his?
He is respected by 95% of high school, college and professional coaches as being a legend in his “time”. Not 5% of the baseball internet and a legend in his own “mind”.
“For darned sure”. You need to stick to criticizing me, and not people like Ron Polk.
THop
"Exact quote out of Teacherman's Book. Don't pay attention to stupid even if it's written down and published."
Not trying to get the last word here, but would Ron Polk have an easier time coaching your team (and your hitting students) than you would coaching his?
He is respected by 95% of high school, college and professional coaches as being a legend in his “time”. Not 5% of the baseball internet and a legend in his own “mind”.
“For darned sure”. You need to stick to criticizing me, and not people like Ron Polk.
THop
quote:Originally posted by BlueDog:
Never open the stance......If you do, the advantage goes to the pitcher......
Even if you always hit with an open stance?
I don't like hitting with an open stance....Not before stride or after stride.....
Why would you?
Why would you?
Why would you hit with no stride?
This is why first pitch hitting can be so important--it may keep the hitter from worrying about what to do with two strikes on him
Blue Dog:
1. “The swing is the swing.....One strike, two strikes, or fifteen strikes......Swing with your swing....Not one that is fabricated......Don't change anything.....Just hit the ball.......”
These statements are just too convenient for me to use as an instructor. Similar to “just throw strikes” or “just hit the ball hard”.
2. “And, always stay as far back in the box as you can.....MLB hitters rub out the back chalk line for a reason......”
Are you saying that where a batter sets up in the batter’s box is “fundamental” and not “style”?
3. “Never open the stance......If you do, the advantage goes to the pitcher......”
Are you saying that the stance a batter chooses is “fundamental” and not “style”?
For the record, I believe (and teach) that a “fundamental” is what 95% of professional players do 95% of the time (under pressure). This applies to not just hitting, but base running, pitching and infield/outfield play as well.
And I believe (and teach) that “style” is what is most comfortable and works best for each individual player. This also applies to not just hitting, but base running, pitching and infield/outfield play as well.
For the record, could you please clarify where you stand on positioning in the batter’s box, stance, stride and two-strike swing/approach?
Thanks,
THop
1. “The swing is the swing.....One strike, two strikes, or fifteen strikes......Swing with your swing....Not one that is fabricated......Don't change anything.....Just hit the ball.......”
These statements are just too convenient for me to use as an instructor. Similar to “just throw strikes” or “just hit the ball hard”.
2. “And, always stay as far back in the box as you can.....MLB hitters rub out the back chalk line for a reason......”
Are you saying that where a batter sets up in the batter’s box is “fundamental” and not “style”?
3. “Never open the stance......If you do, the advantage goes to the pitcher......”
Are you saying that the stance a batter chooses is “fundamental” and not “style”?
For the record, I believe (and teach) that a “fundamental” is what 95% of professional players do 95% of the time (under pressure). This applies to not just hitting, but base running, pitching and infield/outfield play as well.
And I believe (and teach) that “style” is what is most comfortable and works best for each individual player. This also applies to not just hitting, but base running, pitching and infield/outfield play as well.
For the record, could you please clarify where you stand on positioning in the batter’s box, stance, stride and two-strike swing/approach?
Thanks,
THop
THop, I used to believe in style, also......"Style" was an excellent way of covering up, or explaining away, a portion of hitting I wasn't too sure about.....Just pass it off as style......However, I have come to realize the stance is important....Where a hitter puts his hands and feet in the stance means alot.....A whole lot......
As for where to stand in the box.....Can you show me a clip of a MLB hitter standing anywhere but as far back as possible?
As for where to stand in the box.....Can you show me a clip of a MLB hitter standing anywhere but as far back as possible?
As a player (many moons ago), I would just try to put the ball in play with two strikes. Figured my speed and high school infielders would help me get to 1B. I did 4 things to help me hit with 2 strikes.
1. Crowded the plate.
2. Opened my stance a little.
3. Choked up about 2 inches.
4. Flattened the plane of my bat.
In hind sight, don't know that I would recommend this approach for every hitter. I hit at the top of the order and was responsible for getting on base, however I could. Groundballs to the left side were my bread and butter with 2 strikes. Wasn't afraid to bunt with 2 strikes either, but I was a really good bunter.
1. Crowded the plate.
2. Opened my stance a little.
3. Choked up about 2 inches.
4. Flattened the plane of my bat.
In hind sight, don't know that I would recommend this approach for every hitter. I hit at the top of the order and was responsible for getting on base, however I could. Groundballs to the left side were my bread and butter with 2 strikes. Wasn't afraid to bunt with 2 strikes either, but I was a really good bunter.
Blue Dog:
To me “style” is the individual way a player chooses to perform a fundamental skill. To me, movement in a hitter’s stance would be a prime example. Movement is fundamental, how a hitter performs it is style. No two MLB hitters do it the exact same way.
I don’t have any clips of MLB hitters. And even if I did, I lack the computer savvy to post them. But if I did, I would compare Gary Sheffield to Chipper Jones.
THop
To me “style” is the individual way a player chooses to perform a fundamental skill. To me, movement in a hitter’s stance would be a prime example. Movement is fundamental, how a hitter performs it is style. No two MLB hitters do it the exact same way.
I don’t have any clips of MLB hitters. And even if I did, I lack the computer savvy to post them. But if I did, I would compare Gary Sheffield to Chipper Jones.
THop
THop, I understand the computer savvy thing.....I'm right there with you......Or, behind you..... 
As long as style doesn't interfere with function, it's O.K.....Problem is, it often does.....
As long as style doesn't interfere with function, it's O.K.....Problem is, it often does.....
Hey.
Read THOP response, he is telling you all you need to know..
Read THOP response, he is telling you all you need to know..
like TRHIT said that's why its important to drive the first pitch if its a good one. I hate hitting with 2 strikes, so If I see a first pitch fastball down the middle or wherever you like it, then you have to drive it.
Can I add...don't panic and don't be EARLY on your swing as it will cause your mechanics to break down. Swinging scared ( fear of the strike out) gets most HS hitters.
Relax ..you have two strikes...big deal...it happens. If your way against the count your likely to see some marginal pitches and yes you could get rung up. As TRHIT says after the at bat decide how you got there.
Think about hitting back through the box or oppo. Most pitchers way ahead won't risk coming inside hitting you giving you a free ticket. Look away and if you get the CB don't rush and try to pull it as you will be ahead of it and over it.
Relax ..you have two strikes...big deal...it happens. If your way against the count your likely to see some marginal pitches and yes you could get rung up. As TRHIT says after the at bat decide how you got there.
Think about hitting back through the box or oppo. Most pitchers way ahead won't risk coming inside hitting you giving you a free ticket. Look away and if you get the CB don't rush and try to pull it as you will be ahead of it and over it.
Two Questions:
1) On a full count, should a batter take a marginal strike? Reasoning being a 50/50 pitch theoretically results in a .500 on base percentage, which is higher than what would be expected from swinging.
2) Is there any reason not to stand in the back of the box?
1) On a full count, should a batter take a marginal strike? Reasoning being a 50/50 pitch theoretically results in a .500 on base percentage, which is higher than what would be expected from swinging.
2) Is there any reason not to stand in the back of the box?
Standing and watching a potential third strike accomplishes nothing. Put the ball in play. Move baserunners, put pressure on the defense to make a play, get a hit. Sounds like a better solution in my book.
swingbuster that was an outstanding post. You are absolutely correct. Most guys panick when they have two strikes. Relax and just hit. The only thing I want my guys to do with two strikes differently is expand their strike zone a bit. Leave it in your hands not blues. Sometimes kids do everything they should do and get in a two strike situation. Pitcher starts them with a good curveball and paints the outer half. Pitcher comes back with a fb on the outside corner low and away. It happens. Just relax and hit and dont ever panick. Sometimes you go after that good first pitch fastball and you foul it straight back then you get a good curveball for a strike. So what, it happens. Getting down two strikes does not mean that you have done anything wrong everytime. And even if you have, so what. You still have control over your ab. Mental toughness at the plate can not be overstated. Relax and be confident and know that it only takes one. Not to k but to reach.
Coach May Writes
After the CB call strike first pitch..we look for this FB pitch down and away as we feel like ( as you pointed out) that is the pitch of choice. We know its hard pitch to hit but if we guess right here then it is not as hard. We would rather try it here at 0-1 than 0-2 so we look down and away to swing if we can get the bat barrel on it solidly. You need two chances ( swings) when you start out 0-1. Players that get confused and over selective and go 0-2 have very poor odds at that at bat.
Coaches would be surprised how many hits can be gotten on this pitcher's pitch if the batter will trust his swing and drive through this pitch location.
If the pitcher gets his first CB for a call strike you are already in a compromised situation...look for a FB down in or out and get off your best swing two more times. The next at bat he will likely miss his first pitch attempt and you can get the upper hand.
quote:Pitcher comes back with a fb on the outside corner low and away.
After the CB call strike first pitch..we look for this FB pitch down and away as we feel like ( as you pointed out) that is the pitch of choice. We know its hard pitch to hit but if we guess right here then it is not as hard. We would rather try it here at 0-1 than 0-2 so we look down and away to swing if we can get the bat barrel on it solidly. You need two chances ( swings) when you start out 0-1. Players that get confused and over selective and go 0-2 have very poor odds at that at bat.
Coaches would be surprised how many hits can be gotten on this pitcher's pitch if the batter will trust his swing and drive through this pitch location.
If the pitcher gets his first CB for a call strike you are already in a compromised situation...look for a FB down in or out and get off your best swing two more times. The next at bat he will likely miss his first pitch attempt and you can get the upper hand.
Whatever happened to the art of fouling off a third strike if you don't like it?
At the HS level you never want to take a marginal pitch--the umpiring at the HS level won't help you
At the HS level you never want to take a marginal pitch--the umpiring at the HS level won't help you
Its a figment of your imagination.
At some stage, I teach the old tyme
"Shi^house or Castle Swing"
(TM pending, all rights reserved,
patent pending # 1474562897BF8):
regards
Bear
"Shi^house or Castle Swing"
(TM pending, all rights reserved,
patent pending # 1474562897BF8):
regards
Bear
Very informative Teacherman
My 2 cents worth:
These are just some thoughts. Great discussion has already been posted on this topic. Thanks!
- As a coach, you had better gear a portion of your BP towards counts and naturally, this would include hitting with two strikes.
- We are not big advocates of using machines. However, we do use machines if we do not have a game the next day and typically set those machines (ATEC Rookie (2) and Jugs Curveball on those "black" portions of the plate. One inside, one outside for the Rookies and the Curve away.
- I can remember being so focused once in my playing career that I could "foul pitches off." However, I don't think that that is the norm for my players. Therefore, I MIGHT have 2 players out of 20 that can do this consistently.
- When throwing live BP, we have a portion of our round where the batter swings at anything close. This is to practice those borderline balls. Now, if the batter doesn't swing in this portion of BP, I get upset.
- I have never understood why a person would change where they stand at the plate if it isn't where they practice. We allow our hitters to adjust the width of their feet. Anything more than this, in my opinion, is doing something in a game that you don't practice.
- We do choke up on the bat (2 inches at most.) but then again, when we do our situational hitting, we do this in practice.
- Thinking is one of the worst things a hitter can do in this situation. We tell our hitters take a deep breath, and step in and hit the ball. The sun will come up tomorrow either way.
- One other thing that hasn't been added to this conversations is a long shot but then again, some umps in our area have a reputation for not ringing up hitters. Due to the limited number of umps in our area, our kids from high school and legion ball know most of these umps.
- We tell our kids that we will never, "Go quietly into the night." If we error and are aggressive and K then great, you gave it a shot and failed. However, you will get another shot! If you backward K then ...
These are just some thoughts. Great discussion has already been posted on this topic. Thanks!
