2021 RHP Questions

Based on your post I am assuming he wants to play baseball in college. Sounds like you are on the right path.  

Will your son's summer team play at local events where he would want to play or at the WWBA for PG?  If so, and I am probably a contrarian on this topic, I don't see much need for him to showcase at this time. With his frame and current FB velocity I imagine he should continue  to develop and be seen as a prospect by most coaches.  Now if he garners an invite to a big national showcase that changes my opinion. 

Multiple sports in HS if he can continue to play and wants to I haven't seen it hinder many POs.  I have seen it hinder fringy D1 position players who needed the exposure  in fall vs playing football. 

My son is a pitcher in College. PO in the summer but hit all the way through for his HS team.  Let coaches worry about that stuff. The game will tell him when/if that comes. 

Good luck and enjoy those HS years

Welcome to the hsbaseballweb.  Background - I have two sons who pitched in the Pac12, the older one made it to the big leagues a few years ago before TJ surgery.  Older son ended season in triple-A, younger one in double-A.

Your son has the size and present velocity to get opportunities beyond HS.  Your job now is to protect his health and help him develop.

You asked for advice, so here it goes....

1. At his size and current velocity, he will not remain an "unknown."  He will be on the radar whether you take him to a showcase or not.   Your location is fine for that as well.  Even if not, there is time later to have him seen to a wider audience. IMO, next summer is a better time.

2. He!! yes!  Let him play basketball, football, whatever he wants!!  Many, MANY elite baseball players did multiple sports.  It is a good thing - it will help him in baseball, particularly with his athleticism.  Do it, do it....DO IT!!

3. Do not force him to PO.  Both of our sons, destined to be college/pro pitchers, played a position all the way through HS and had fun at it.  NO NEED to tamp that down now....at all.

4. Work on getting stronger, faster...better.  And keep it FUN!!  Number 1 thing I hear both of our sons say...as well as veteran MLBers at camps....KEEP IT FUN as long as you can.  DO NOT do anything to add pressure, restrict position....tamp down FUN....at any point through HS.

Fourseam, you ask some difficult questions.  Regarding your second question, there is a separate thread about football.  And many threads about playing multiple sports.  Apologies for over-simplifying, but most members here seem to favor playing multiple sports -- if that is your son's desire.  Three varsity sports will be challenging to say the least, but possible.  My 2019 settled into 2 varsity sports - baseball and basketball and that seems to be a lot, as all sports are now "year round" to a great extent.  Unfortunately, the HS baseball coach does not like baseball guys playing a winter sport, but that has not stopped him so far .  That could be a consideration though if the baseball coach discriminates against multi sport athletes.

For the first question -- my opinion only -- but I think you can wait until summer of Freshman year (i.e., summer after he completes freshman year of HS) at least, before doing the PBR kind of showcases.  You'll get different opinions on that question also.  Before doing a PBR or PG, perhaps you could take him to a "lesser" type showcase just for the experience and get the feel of it.  Nowadays we get a camp invite almost daily LOL so it shouldn't be too hard to find one.

PO is a tough and very personal question.  We are encouraging our 2019 to keep hitting - he is still good enough of a hitter to be valuable in HS and club, and he likes it, so why not?  Other boys seem to like specializing and are fine with the PO role.  Not sure there is a good answer other than, eventually, the game will decide for him.  If it hasn't decided yet, why not keep doing both?  Louisville had a 2 way player last year Brendan McKay (cue other posters to jump all over this as this is definitely the exception, not the rule LOL).

Sounds like he is well on his way.  A 2021 throwing 84 at 6'3" is in a good place.

I think you were extremely smart to have him take some time off the mound in 13U and 14U, no doubt coaches might've over pitched him in completely unnecessary tournaments.   I would think that waiting until summer for Perfect Game showcases will be completely fine.

Keep pushing the grades.  Great grades can make a huge difference.

The main advice I will give is to make sure he takes 2-3 consecutive months off from throwing every year over his high school career.

BackstopDad32 posted:

Based on your post I am assuming he wants to play baseball in college. Sounds like you are on the right path.  

Will your son's summer team play at local events where he would want to play or at the WWBA for PG?  If so, and I am probably a contrarian on this topic, I don't see much need for him to showcase at this time. With his frame and current FB velocity I imagine he should continue  to develop and be seen as a prospect by most coaches.  Now if he garners an invite to a big national showcase that changes my opinion. 

Multiple sports in HS if he can continue to play and wants to I haven't seen it hinder many POs.  I have seen it hinder fringy D1 position players who needed the exposure  in fall vs playing football. 

My son is a pitcher in College. PO in the summer but hit all the way through for his HS team.  Let coaches worry about that stuff. The game will tell him when/if that comes. 

Good luck and enjoy those HS years

Thank you for the feedback! The academy schedule for post-freshman year is about half local tournaments and half travel showcase events. I believe the showcase schedule ramps up each summer thereafter.

justbaseball posted:

Welcome to the hsbaseballweb.  Background - I have two sons who pitched in the Pac12, the older one made it to the big leagues a few years ago before TJ surgery.  Older son ended season in triple-A, younger one in double-A.

Your son has the size and present velocity to get opportunities beyond HS.  Your job now is to protect his health and help him develop.

You asked for advice, so here it goes....

1. At his size and current velocity, he will not remain an "unknown."  He will be on the radar whether you take him to a showcase or not.   Your location is fine for that as well.  Even if not, there is time later to have him seen to a wider audience. IMO, next summer is a better time.

2. He!! yes!  Let him play basketball, football, whatever he wants!!  Many, MANY elite baseball players did multiple sports.  It is a good thing - it will help him in baseball, particularly with his athleticism.  Do it, do it....DO IT!!

3. Do not force him to PO.  Both of our sons, destined to be college/pro pitchers, played a position all the way through HS and had fun at it.  NO NEED to tamp that down now....at all.

4. Work on getting stronger, faster...better.  And keep it FUN!!  Number 1 thing I hear both of our sons say...as well as veteran MLBers at camps....KEEP IT FUN as long as you can.  DO NOT do anything to add pressure, restrict position....tamp down FUN....at any point through HS.

Thank you for the reply. This is excellent information! We are aware that where he sits now is certainly promising but he also needs to take it one step at a time, put in the hard work and enjoy the process. I haven't encouraged the PO route at all but it has been suggested to me that it might be a good route to go when other sports commitments are involved. My feeling is that he should keep hitting and playing a position as well. Glad to see that verified by others that have been through it!

Qhead posted:

Fourseam, you ask some difficult questions.  Regarding your second question, there is a separate thread about football.  And many threads about playing multiple sports.  Apologies for over-simplifying, but most members here seem to favor playing multiple sports -- if that is your son's desire.  Three varsity sports will be challenging to say the least, but possible.  My 2019 settled into 2 varsity sports - baseball and basketball and that seems to be a lot, as all sports are now "year round" to a great extent.  Unfortunately, the HS baseball coach does not like baseball guys playing a winter sport, but that has not stopped him so far .  That could be a consideration though if the baseball coach discriminates against multi sport athletes.

For the first question -- my opinion only -- but I think you can wait until summer of Freshman year (i.e., summer after he completes freshman year of HS) at least, before doing the PBR kind of showcases.  You'll get different opinions on that question also.  Before doing a PBR or PG, perhaps you could take him to a "lesser" type showcase just for the experience and get the feel of it.  Nowadays we get a camp invite almost daily LOL so it shouldn't be too hard to find one.

PO is a tough and very personal question.  We are encouraging our 2019 to keep hitting - he is still good enough of a hitter to be valuable in HS and club, and he likes it, so why not?  Other boys seem to like specializing and are fine with the PO role.  Not sure there is a good answer other than, eventually, the game will decide for him.  If it hasn't decided yet, why not keep doing both?  Louisville had a 2 way player last year Brendan McKay (cue other posters to jump all over this as this is definitely the exception, not the rule LOL).

Thanks for the response as well. My wife and I were both basketball players and we know the benefit that sport can have on overall athleticism and conditioning. I believe the HS coaches in our district are pretty good about encouraging multiple sports but we have already to run into some conflicts with baseball training and voluntary basketball workouts. 

3and2Fastball posted:

Sounds like he is well on his way.  A 2021 throwing 84 at 6'3" is in a good place.

I think you were extremely smart to have him take some time off the mound in 13U and 14U, no doubt coaches might've over pitched him in completely unnecessary tournaments.   I would think that waiting until summer for Perfect Game showcases will be completely fine.

Keep pushing the grades.  Great grades can make a huge difference.

The main advice I will give is to make sure he takes 2-3 consecutive months off from throwing every year over his high school career.

It was hard on him not pitching the last two years. There is nothing in sports he would rather do than to compete on the mound. The plus to it is that he became a better hitter when that's all he had to work on!

We resisted the urge to have him join a travel team that was chasing trophies all over the country because we were very concerned about arm usage. Instead we kept him on a team with friends that played locally. It was still a good major level team and he got to do Cooperstown and some of the other big out of town tournaments, but we kept it in perspective. The coaches and other players and parents on the team were very understanding when we decided to shut down his pitching and we are quite thankful for that.

Welcome to the site! It look like you got some great advice, not surprised. Keep us in the loop on your son's progression.

I have a 2020 who just turned 15. Here are some of my takes on this.

1. Keep up the core strength and flexibility training, that seems to be the difference in many hurt kids I have seen.  If your body is strong and flexible it's less likely to break, it still can break, but it's less likely to.

2. All weight programs are not created equal.  Please research.  There are weighted ball programs where you mostly throw from your knees, and their are programs that have you stupidly long tossing with a weighted ball. Know what your kid is doing.

3. My son did Football and baseball his Freshman year.  This year he is doing Basketball and baseball.  The only limits I set on him for his activities pertain to my sanity, he can only do two.  Between High School Athletics and Travel ball and don't even get me started on my daughters cheerleading, I need a break.  However, his sports are his choice.  If he wanted to give up baseball and play lacrosse I'd go buy him a lacrosse stick.  You are only a kid once, and I want him to have great childhood memories, and for me that included sports.

4. Yes, being a two way player is hard.  For my son, he has always been in a power spot in the lineup and a valuable position player, but the older he gets the more his pitching ability is standing out. JV he had maybe 10 innings in the field and over 20 on the mound....Varsity coach came to talk to him about varsity or JV next year and ONLY talked about his velo and control on the mound. Eventually they just won't play him in anything but pitcher and that will be when he has to say he is a PO, but he's not saying it until they do, and that seems the correct path.

I was just at the PG Underclass event at Lakepoint in GA and it seemed that over 90% of the kids weren't committed.  There is not reason to throw a 9th grader out there, this summer or next summer are fine.  Keep in mind the kids that bloom early and get ranked, while it is cool for them, I would think it is a lot of pressure.  Once you get to the top there are people fighting to get better than YOU specifically, it's a lot less pressure on the path up, although it's nice to know you are on the path up :- )

My son goes to HS in the largest classification in GA, his HS baseball program is impressive, and last year 8 seniors went on to play in College.  Take it from me that you aren't behind anything or anyone, and that once the circus starts you can't put that genie back in the bottle.  HIDE for as long as you can!

roothog66 posted:

CaCO3Girl posted:

"and their are programs that have you stupidly long tossing with a weighted ball.

Off course a little, but why do you think this is "stupid?"

His kid just started 9th grade.  Most of the data on long tossing with a weighted ball is for older kids. Most of the data about younger kids long tossing with a weighted ball shows it leads to catastrophe.

Asking a 14 year old to long toss with a weighted ball is stupid, in my opinion, but there are many "trainers" that will train a 14 year old like they train a 20 year old and that's just not right.

As to the vast majority of 14yo's, I'd agree. I just read it as more categorical. 

roothog66 posted:

As to the vast majority of 14yo's, I'd agree. I just read it as more categorical. 

So who are our main authorities on arm/shoulder care?  For the purposes of this site I think we can all agree that Kyle Boddy and Eric Cressey are in the top ten list for most people.

Kyle: "Not a single pitcher showed increased stress when long tossing overload OR underload baseballs."

Cressey: "You should never throw a weighted baseball off a mound (arm stress is higher when elevated) or with long-toss.  We do all our weighted ball drills into a tarp/net from about 6-8 feet away."

Kyle has also done a great article on several ways a weighted ball program can go really wrong  https://www.drivelinebaseball....training-gone-wrong/

My personal opinion on older people long tossing with a weighted ball is that I hope my son is never asked to do it.  There is a pool of evidence, not the only pool but still it is there, that the increase in velocity is from the biological components of the arm/shoulder loosening/stretching, rather than the velo increase coming from a stronger arm.

Only time will tell, but for now I'm believing the old rumors.  My kid didn't lift until he was shaving, he didn't pitch until he was 12, he works on his core and flexibility to hopefully reduce injury, and he pitches well under 100 innings a year.  Add to that he will not be long tossing with a weighted ball while under my roof.  So far so good, we will see how it goes.

CaCO3Girl posted:

I have a 2020 who just turned 15. Here are some of my takes on this.

1. Keep up the core strength and flexibility training, that seems to be the difference in many hurt kids I have seen.  If your body is strong and flexible it's less likely to break, it still can break, but it's less likely to.

2. All weight programs are not created equal.  Please research.  There are weighted ball programs where you mostly throw from your knees, and their are programs that have you stupidly long tossing with a weighted ball. Know what your kid is doing.

3. My son did Football and baseball his Freshman year.  This year he is doing Basketball and baseball.  The only limits I set on him for his activities pertain to my sanity, he can only do two.  Between High School Athletics and Travel ball and don't even get me started on my daughters cheerleading, I need a break.  However, his sports are his choice.  If he wanted to give up baseball and play lacrosse I'd go buy him a lacrosse stick.  You are only a kid once, and I want him to have great childhood memories, and for me that included sports.

4. Yes, being a two way player is hard.  For my son, he has always been in a power spot in the lineup and a valuable position player, but the older he gets the more his pitching ability is standing out. JV he had maybe 10 innings in the field and over 20 on the mound....Varsity coach came to talk to him about varsity or JV next year and ONLY talked about his velo and control on the mound. Eventually they just won't play him in anything but pitcher and that will be when he has to say he is a PO, but he's not saying it until they do, and that seems the correct path.

I was just at the PG Underclass event at Lakepoint in GA and it seemed that over 90% of the kids weren't committed.  There is not reason to throw a 9th grader out there, this summer or next summer are fine.  Keep in mind the kids that bloom early and get ranked, while it is cool for them, I would think it is a lot of pressure.  Once you get to the top there are people fighting to get better than YOU specifically, it's a lot less pressure on the path up, although it's nice to know you are on the path up :- )

My son goes to HS in the largest classification in GA, his HS baseball program is impressive, and last year 8 seniors went on to play in College.  Take it from me that you aren't behind anything or anyone, and that once the circus starts you can't put that genie back in the bottle.  HIDE for as long as you can!

Thank you for the response and information. To clarify, my son is currently on a weight lifting program, not weighted balls. 

CaCO3Girl posted:

roothog66 posted:

As to the vast majority of 14yo's, I'd agree. I just read it as more categorical. 

So who are our main authorities on arm/shoulder care?  For the purposes of this site I think we can all agree that Kyle Boddy and Eric Cressey are in the top ten list for most people.

Kyle: "Not a single pitcher showed increased stress when long tossing overload OR underload baseballs."

Cressey: "You should never throw a weighted baseball off a mound (arm stress is higher when elevated) or with long-toss.  We do all our weighted ball drills into a tarp/net from about 6-8 feet away."

Kyle has also done a great article on several ways a weighted ball program can go really wrong  https://www.drivelinebaseball....training-gone-wrong/

My personal opinion on older people long tossing with a weighted ball is that I hope my son is never asked to do it.  There is a pool of evidence, not the only pool but still it is there, that the increase in velocity is from the biological components of the arm/shoulder loosening/stretching, rather than the velo increase coming from a stronger arm.

Only time will tell, but for now I'm believing the old rumors.  My kid didn't lift until he was shaving, he didn't pitch until he was 12, he works on his core and flexibility to hopefully reduce injury, and he pitches well under 100 innings a year.  Add to that he will not be long tossing with a weighted ball while under my roof.  So far so good, we will see how it goes.

How are you reading that Boddy quote as evidence AGAINST long tossing weighted balls? In fact, it contradicts the Cressey quote. Not to mention the Cressey quote comes from 2009 and a lot more work has been done in the field since then. I wouldn't bet on anyone's opinion from 2009 not having changed, especially with data coming from Driveline in recent years. Kyle's article is correct, but deals with ancillary actions taken or not taken apart from the actual mechanics of weighted balls. Further, his points are to be taken to heart as they concern any athletic training program, especially weight training. I've seen a lot more kids injured through weight training than with weighted balls (in fact, now going on five years of weighted ball use, I've never se en an injury).

 That being said, my son doesn't long toss at all because I believe it adds nothing and takes away time that could be used throwing with intent off the mound, but I do realize when he gets to college I (nor he) may have a say in the matter. However, your quote from Kyle should ease your mind that long tossing with a weighted ball is no more stressful than with a 5 oz. ball. Never say never as to your own son ever doing it. 

roothog66 posted:

CaCO3Girl posted:

roothog66 posted:

As to the vast majority of 14yo's, I'd agree. I just read it as more categorical. 

So who are our main authorities on arm/shoulder care?  For the purposes of this site I think we can all agree that Kyle Boddy and Eric Cressey are in the top ten list for most people.

Kyle: "Not a single pitcher showed increased stress when long tossing overload OR underload baseballs."

Cressey: "You should never throw a weighted baseball off a mound (arm stress is higher when elevated) or with long-toss.  We do all our weighted ball drills into a tarp/net from about 6-8 feet away."

Kyle has also done a great article on several ways a weighted ball program can go really wrong  https://www.drivelinebaseball....training-gone-wrong/

My personal opinion on older people long tossing with a weighted ball is that I hope my son is never asked to do it.  There is a pool of evidence, not the only pool but still it is there, that the increase in velocity is from the biological components of the arm/shoulder loosening/stretching, rather than the velo increase coming from a stronger arm.

Only time will tell, but for now I'm believing the old rumors.  My kid didn't lift until he was shaving, he didn't pitch until he was 12, he works on his core and flexibility to hopefully reduce injury, and he pitches well under 100 innings a year.  Add to that he will not be long tossing with a weighted ball while under my roof.  So far so good, we will see how it goes.

How are you reading that Boddy quote as evidence AGAINST long tossing weighted balls? In fact, it contradicts the Cressey quote. Not to mention the Cressey quote comes from 2009 and a lot more work has been done in the field since then. I wouldn't bet on anyone's opinion from 2009 not having changed, especially with data coming from Driveline in recent years. Kyle's article is correct, but deals with ancillary actions taken or not taken apart from the actual mechanics of weighted balls. Further, his points are to be taken to heart as they concern any athletic training program, especially weight training. I've seen a lot more kids injured through weight training than with weighted balls (in fact, now going on five years of weighted ball use, I've never se en an injury).

 That being said, my son doesn't long toss at all because I believe it adds nothing and takes away time that could be used throwing with intent off the mound, but I do realize when he gets to college I (nor he) may have a say in the matter. However, your quote from Kyle should ease your mind that long tossing with a weighted ball is no more stressful than with a 5 oz. ball. Never say never as to your own son ever doing it. 

Sorry, I forgot to say they disagree.  There are others on the internet (I know it's the internet) that make good cases against long tossing with a weighted ball.  And Kyle makes a good case for it can go wrong, quick.

While the stress on the elbow in kyles PRO study does show less stress they didn't look at the rotator cuff and that's a big oversight in my opinion.

Like I said the never comment is while he's under my roof.  What he does later isn't up to me.

I'll say this; I've been a pitching coach for over 25 years now and I used to teach so much stuff as a HS PC in the early 90's that I now find embarrassing to admit to. At the time, I was 100% convinced they were correct.

As to long toss, I agree with you, but I don't limit it to weighted balls - I have a hard time believing that an extra, say 3-4 ozs. can really make that kind of difference. I personally think the most beneficial factor to long toss is range of motion work, but I think that's something that can be done in other ways. However, I'm not totally closed off if I'm ever convinced otherwise.

I emailed Cressey to ask if he had changed his opinion on long tossing with weighted balls since 2009. He said "We still don't do it."