2way - how/when to choose

You could have just described our guy except he is a 2021. Two years ago he thought of himself as a SS that also pitched. I explained that next level selects many more pitchers.

He resisted advice until Jr year. Then took him to a PG showcase where he pitched 90 mph.

He agreed to change his PG and PBR to pitcher and then SS. He jumped from 20th in state to 4th and dedicated himself to being a pitcher (vs a SS that throws hard) .

D1 schools then looked at him as a pitcher who's is capable of being a 2 way. They promised him a chance.

I explained (per ADBONO advice) that  D1 P5 2 ways are unicorns. And there are not enough hours in the day to do it and graduate. I think he hears me but dreams die hard.

In the Fall he will get his chance and see how true D1 SS's can hit like crazy.

Then the coaches and reality will sort it.

In the meantime pitchers get recruited!!!

Chances are a travel coach will decide. If pitching decides championships he will become a pitcher only. In high school I played against one of the best hitters in the state. But he also was a good enough pitcher to spend six years in MLB. He never touched a bat once in college.

RJM good point. But we always make a deal with each travel coach. We will not PO. He will not play unless he gets AB's and some MIF time. They always agree. But not sure if that would work for most.

We also got an education playing on the Hitters travel team. Noah Miller is a SS going to Alabama. When he plays 50 MLB scouts are there. He is so good our guy is pushed to 2b.

Good to see a great one but also fun to turn a double play with him on ESPN!

@Good Knight posted:

He agreed to change his PG and PBR to pitcher and then SS. He jumped from 20th in state to 4th and dedicated himself to being a pitcher (vs a SS that throws hard) .

I always wondered about whether that would happen (ok, I know it doesn't matter in the grand scheme, but I did always wonder).

2021 parent here. My son was very worried about being pigeon-holed as a pitcher. He always hated pitching and very rarely pitched through his youth career. In the quarterfinal of WWBA, the local team he was playing for ran out of pitching and he pitched three scoreless innings, hitting 89 (and sitting upper 80s) in front of an ACC coach who was there watching one of his commits on our team (a LHP who just didn't have his stuff that day). PTWoodson did that, one inning here one inning there, over several PG events and hit the magic 90 at a PBR event heading into his junior year (ironically in front of a different ACC coach). Plus he LOOKS like a pitcher. Several high level schools recruited him as a two-way which he interpreted (probably correctly) as "we will tell you two way because we know you want to hit but we really want to turn you into a pitcher."  Those schools dropped to the bottom of his list of consideration and he focused on the schools that either only wanted him as a position player or who said "we are recruiting you as an outfielder. If we needed you on the bump every once in a while, would you consider it?" At this point, all the dust has settled and he is considered a hitter only. Moral of the story, your son still has time to let things figure themselves out as long as you are making arm care a priority.  And he does have a chance to influence the direction things go. I do agree with most posters that pitchers have a lot more opportunities to make it at the next level just from a numbers standpoint. Also, that it becomes three jobs in college (a pitcher, a position player and a student)--two of which happen concurrently.

P.S. We know two 2021 true two-ways. One is committed to Arkansas and the other to UNC. They both continue to do both very successfully in HS and on their travel teams. One sounds very much like your son. It will interesting to see which way they both go...or if they will become the next Ohtanis! Good luck!

Take this for what it's worth, but my 2021 was in a SIMILAR position (but likely not as good as your son).  Growing up, almost always was the #1 pitcher on his teams and played SS and led off.  But he's small.  Pushing 5'10" today but only with some help.  As a pitcher, he threw both hard and effectively and did so in big moments.  In February (pre-season) of 2020, he was sitting 82-84 with his FB, so had he pitched last summer and gotten into full pitching shape, I think sitting 84-86 would be pretty realistic for him.  Now, a year later, 90 wouldn't be unthinkable.  So he'd be flirting with that magic number, but only be 5'9"+.  That and $5 might get you a cup of coffee at Starbucks.  90 is pretty good, but not as good when you consider his whole product.  You don't hear the word "projectable" much for pitchers under 6 foot.

So my son decided that his strong arm stands a better chance at being healthy for a longer period of time as a position player.  Longevity is most important to my son.  He wants to play the game as long as he possibly can and we struggle ignoring that arm injuries seem to end the game for about 95% of pitchers.  Maybe it's not that high, but I don't hear many stories of pitchers who simply had enough of playing and walked away.  It seems like just about every former pitcher has a "story" the ends with an injury, surgery or both.  And I'd like a 6'5" pitcher's chances are recovery much better than a little squirt like my kid.  But man is it hard to ignore the recruiting value of being a pitcher today!  It's WAY en vogue these days.

Excellent advice...but remember what I said.

PTWoodson is a unicorn!!

@Good Knight posted:

RJM good point. But we always make a deal with each travel coach. We will not PO. He will not play unless he gets AB's and some MIF time. They always agree. But not sure if that would work for most.

My son worked it the other way. He offered to pitch in midweek local scout league games. But he requested to not be pitched in weekend national tournaments unless absolutely needed.

He had no plans to attend a college in the area. He didn’t want to be gunned at 90+ in a national tournament.

Herewego,

I think you answered your own question with excellent advice based on your son's desire not to be PO....let nature take its course...let the baseball gods decide.   My son's national travel team had a few 2-way players that helped  them to a 2008 WWBA 16U championship.   My son was a starting PO, and the travel coach would bring in his 2-ways to fill innings or close games when needed.   When my son pitched, he was expected to go very deep into 7 inning travel games.   It sounds to me like that is what your son's travel coach is doing with his pitchers then bringing your son into spot relief as needed.   

Honestly, I'd keep doing what he is doing.  Play the field, hit and spot relief when needed.  If he doesn't want to be a PO in college then keep the bat and glove skills sharp.   The baseball gods are  omniscient.  BTW...none of the 2-way players on my son's PG WWBA championship travel team played 2-way in college.  It takes a very, very special talent to do that.

Just my experiences...good luck!

Hit until the game tells you you can't hit. I honestly think that as long you do your pitching workouts the hitting won't hurt your pitching. I'm not a pitcher but it isn't that Hard, just chuck the ball over the plate (just kidding of course it is hard) and for example Jake de grom and Zack greinke were shortstops in HS.

I would say if you are a real pitching prospect focus most of your training on pitching but also do some hitting work and see how long that is enough to compete in the box.

Obviously you can't neglect your pitching training to work on your hitting but as long coach writes your name in the lineup and you are doing decently why not keep hitting?

Two way decision was made for him. He played as a two way for a top 10 travel team with 5 players drafted out of HS.

Prior to the round of 16 at the WWBA they were taking BP in the cages next to another team where some kid was hitting the ball so hard I thought it was going to break the net. His coach told him to lose the bat and he asked why. His coach told him because that's _______ and he's going to be a top 5 pick in next years draft, that's who you're pitching against if we win this game. So would you rather pitch against him after playing third for 2 hours or would you rather be fresh. Cleats came off, sandals went on and bag was packed in about 10 seconds.

They won and he ended up starting in the quarterfinals of the WWBA against the #1 team in the country in front of what I assume was every pro team and some very high level people within their organization. First pitch of the game was 91 and I knew his two way days were done.

He was offered the opportunity in college, but it wasn't a real opportunity nor was it one that he wanted to take on.

@RJM posted:

My son worked it the other way. He offered to pitch in midweek local scout league games. But he requested to not be pitched in weekend national tournaments unless absolutely needed.

He had no plans to attend a college in the area. He didn’t want to be gunned at 90+ in a national tournament.

my son's coach has worked it this way, too.  for reference, he was a catcher so his lens is catching>hitting>pitching and he thinks my son will be a catcher at the next level. 

two years ago, before he entered HS, the coach started pitching my son more and working with him on pitching stuff.  his reasoning: the hs coach will see his arm and put him on the mound so he may as well know what he's doing up there.

last year, during pandemic, the team played a ton of double header friendlies (btw, i'm loving this philosophy.  no or few tournaments and you can control your opponents).  i noticed that my son was pitching here and there and only against certain teams.  the coach explained that he wanted mysson to get his reps in but he didn't want to throw him against certain coaches with certain connections bc he didn't want him to be pigeonholed as a pitcher. 

i also have talked to a mlb scout in our area and he advised doing both for as long as possible bc, eventually, it will be chosen for you. 

You (and your son) can speculate all you want and express preferences until the cows come home. It’s all cannon fodder. What will determine the route he goes in college is how well he can hit college pitching. And nobody knows the answer to that yet. If he swings it well enough when he gets there he may get a chance to do some of both - especially if he plays D3, D2 or NAIA. Not near as likely in D1, especially in P5 conferences. Since his arm is more a known quantity he will get put on the mound for sure. The best thing about being a 2 way player in HS is that it gives you options going forward beyond HS. Even if the decision gets made for you there are 2 different ways you can make it.

In our area, all of the HS starting pitchers are also the best hitters and fielders, so in HS the best players all do both; I can't remember a top pitcher who was not also a hitter.  I agree, keep doing both as long as your teams let you, if you end up at D3 you might get to two-way and keep doing what you love.  Something to keep in mind:  if you are not insanely talented P5 prospects like those who have posted above, you will have more college opportunities if you focus your training on one side (probably pitching) and make it your strength.  But it depends what kind of college experience you want.

@adbono posted:

You (and your son) can speculate all you want and express preferences until the cows come home. It’s all cannon fodder. What will determine the route he goes in college is how well he can hit college pitching. And nobody knows the answer to that yet. If he swings it well enough when he gets there he may get a chance to do some of both - especially if he plays D3, D2 or NAIA. Not near as likely in D1, especially in P5 conferences. Since his arm is more a known quantity he will get put on the mound for sure. The best thing about being a 2 way player in HS is that it gives you options going forward beyond HS. Even if the decision gets made for you there are 2 different ways you can make it.

This ^^^^^^

Nothing is determined until you reach college.

There are no doubt 2 way guys at all levels. Sometimes it's because the player is exceptional and other times a team need.

At the D1 college level it's very difficult. I think that any coach that promises both is setting the player up for disappointment. And honestly, as mentioned, it's very, very difficult to practice hitting, pitching and go to school and maintain your GPA at the same time. We have 1, 2 way player who was just named conference All Academic.

The truth is that the coach will decide (not the player) what position the player will play. For a pitcher, it's how many hitters he can get out and for a batter it's how many times he can reach base at that level.

I was telling someone yesterday that son, who strictly pitched at a P5 in college, as a senior in HS, was named county utility player of the year.

But there was no question that he would be a pitcher only.

When i think of 2 way guys in college ball (P5)....I think or Will Crowe and Brendan McKay. Clemson has one now, Davis Sharpe. These guys were excellent pitchers and can rake. College will decide for him if he rides out the 2 way thing thru HS.

Mostly I have seen guys who are SP who can rake be DH. Or, position guys used as RP.

It's really tough to have good stats if you do both.

@TPM posted:

Mostly I have seen guys who are SP who can rake be DH. Or, position guys used as RP.

It's really tough to have good stats if you do both.

Very true, and the other stat that usually suffers is GPA

The player doesn’t choose.  Baseball chooses for them.  The coaches choose.

You don’t go to a College or Pro coach and say “I’m a 2 way”.  They’ll laugh you out of the room

Shoveit4Ks and TPM,

I was thinking along the same lines with Danny Hultzen (picked 2nd overall in 2011 draft).  He was definitely a unicorn.  Lefty SP as well as part time 1st baseman and DH.  He could rake and bring it on the mound with a variety of pitches.  Also, UVA had a CF a few years ago who would come in and close...can't remember his name but he had heat and a filthy slider.

Son played with a few 2-way players at his mid level HA D1. In particular, the starting first baseman was a "hitter who pitched." In college and summer NECBL he was a 1B (sometimes LF) and closer. Went to P5 school as grad student and was team's closer who led team in BA. Getting an extra "Covid year" he is now at another P5 somewhat as a setup with a sparingly AB. What's next on his ledger?  Olympics and Team Israel . A true unicorn who picked up 3 degrees along the way!

Son is still considered two-way but has not hit this year.  As a bullpen guy, it is very hard. Son worked hard to be one of the main bullpen guys and so many hitters this year.  Has swung in practice abd hits HRs both sides.  Had warmed up in games for right situations. HC just keeps saying don’t forget to swing occasionally just in case.  He is only switch hitter on team.  Very few can or will put time in to do both in college, especially P5.  

I love these personal stories. Reality needed! He’s also a switch hitter (and can switch pitch). He definitely puts more work in hitting than pitching. Just started Top Velocity. Wants FB 90 by fall (turns 16 in July). He loves to pitch but the thought of not playing every day is a huge deterrent. I changed his PG to RHP first and SS second and he immediately picked up on it and made me change it back.

son was recruited as a position player who might be able to pitch relief here and there. Once on campus was made into a PO due to the needs of the team. He is disappointed but in the long run I think its better for his GPA. 2 way is just so time consuming

@Herewego posted:

I love these personal stories. Reality needed! He’s also a switch hitter (and can switch pitch). He definitely puts more work in hitting than pitching. Just started Top Velocity. Wants FB 90 by fall (turns 16 in July). He loves to pitch but the thought of not playing every day is a huge deterrent. I changed his PG to RHP first and SS second and he immediately picked up on it and made me change it back.

Dad you got off easy. Warning to all, do not mess with kid's PG or PBR profile, unless you have one of those weird mutant teenage sons that are agreeable to parents.

@Herewego posted:

He absolutely does not want to PO.

What advice. He's told you.

@fenwaysouth posted:

Shoveit4Ks and TPM,

I was thinking along the same lines with Danny Hultzen (picked 2nd overall in 2011 draft).  He was definitely a unicorn.  Lefty SP as well as part time 1st baseman and DH.  He could rake and bring it on the mound with a variety of pitches.  Also, UVA had a CF a few years ago who would come in and close...can't remember his name but he had heat and a filthy slider.

Sean Dolittle UVA was a two way guy, drafted as pitcher and first baseman in the first round in 2007.

I remember Hultzen, didn't realize he was a two way guy.