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The High School league my son will play in this yr made a change in their scheduling. Last year they generally had 2 games a week against different schools. They were generally on tuesdays and thursdays.

This yr they will play the same team 3 times in a row Mondays, Wednesdays, and Thursdays with makeups on Saturdays. Last year if you had 2 or 3 good pitchers you could get by. Now the coach feels he'll need at least 5 guys he can count on to pitch.

What kind of scheduling do your sons have?
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The season starts next week and runs through the end of May. Most weeks are 3 games (Tuesday, Friday & Saturday), there are two weeks that have 5-6 games (spring tournaments) and 2 weeks that have only 2 games.

When they get to playoff's the league tournament is 3 consecutive days and the section tournament has 2 games a week.

Everywhere is different but around here three games a week is fairly standard.
Our school in Washington State has gone to 3 games a week too against the same team, Home, away, home or away, home, away. Last year the coach went with only 3 pitchers when it was two games a week. This year we only have 3 pitchers due to the senior level kids quitting like they do every year and only 6 good players returning from last years JV and varsity. Fortunately my kid has a rubber arm but maybe unfortunately as inevitably he will throw too many innings. Anyone know offhand what the high school rule is for innings pitched in a week.
something has changed, I am not sure what.
** From a scheduling standpoint it makes since on paper but what if you have a bad week of weather and that make-up day is rained out. It seems like there could be a nightmare backup of games with a limited schedule.

** It will be interesting to see how coaches use their available pitching within the ip rules. It could be guys having more appearances but throwing as many innings. What about rest over the coarse of a season?

** Teams deep in pitching already had an advantage, this will even be more so.

** Sounds like a lot of slugfests
We definitely have a lot of rainouts in Oregon.

I'm new to the HS level do they have rules about innings per week? I guess I assumed it was up to the coaches to take care of the kids. It will be nice if they have guidelines to follow.

There are definitely going to be some slugfests. My sons team was already short of quality pitchers. The coach has already told my 5'4" freshman to expect to throw on varsity. Eek
quote:
Originally posted by smalltown:
Our school in Washington State has gone to 3 games a week too against the same team, Home, away, home or away, home, away. Last year the coach went with only 3 pitchers when it was two games a week. This year we only have 3 pitchers due to the senior level kids quitting like they do every year and only 6 good players returning from last years JV and varsity. Fortunately my kid has a rubber arm but maybe unfortunately as inevitably he will throw too many innings. Anyone know offhand what the high school rule is for innings pitched in a week.
something has changed, I am not sure what.


NFHS Rule 6-6-6 Each state association shall have a pitching restriction to afford pitchers a reasonable rest period between pitching appearances.

Here in Ca’s SJS section, its 10 innings per week max. You have to check with the assn in Wa to see what theirs is. You should be able to ask the VHC, or the AD and get the answer, but if I were you, I’d look it up for myself. ;-)

Here’s all I can do for ya!

Washington Interscholastic Activities Association
435 Main Ave S
Renton, WA 98055-2711
Phone: (425) 687-8585
Fax: (425) 747-9476
http://www.wiaa.com/
Last edited by FutureBack.Mom
This must be a left coast topic

I like the move to playing a three game series in one week against the same team. It means each team will face three different starters in the series - no more pitching your stud three times against your toughest league opponent. (Rainouts, of course, could change things.)

Unfortunately, our league has not gone to this system. We play three games a week, M/W/F.
2006-2007 WIAA handbook:

51.5.0 PITCHER LIMITATION - When a pitcher pitches four (4) innings or more in a contest which began and ended on
the same day or in a day, the pitcher shall not pitch again until two (2) calendar days have elapsed. The following
examples indicate when a pitcher could pitch: Monday-Thursday, Tuesday-Friday, Wednesday-Saturday,
Thursday-Monday, Friday-Monday, Saturday-Tuesday.
51.5.1 One (1) pitch constitutes an inning.
51.5.2 The same rule applies to play-offs as well as to regular season play, and to tied, suspended,
discontinued or protested games.

quote:
Originally posted by smalltown:
Our school in Washington State has gone to 3 games a week too against the same team, Home, away, home or away, home, away. Last year the coach went with only 3 pitchers when it was two games a week. This year we only have 3 pitchers due to the senior level kids quitting like they do every year and only 6 good players returning from last years JV and varsity. Fortunately my kid has a rubber arm but maybe unfortunately as inevitably he will throw too many innings. Anyone know offhand what the high school rule is for innings pitched in a week.
something has changed, I am not sure what.
We play three games a week. Once the conference schedule starts we play conference games on Tues and Friday with a non con game either on Weds or Thurs. I like the conference set up with playing the same team for three game series in the same week. This is a more true gauge of who has the better team in my opinion. We do not play series. We play each team twice but not in series. You have to have at least five pitchers when you play three games a week and sometimes that is not enough. Coaches in my opinion should use the non conf games as opportunities to develop other arms in their program and not over use the ones that they already have.
Our conference has two divisions, each with 7 teams. Once our conference schedule starts, we play 4 games per week with a 3 game conference series each week: DH on Saturday at one school, 3rd game on Tuesday at the other school (alternates each year), and a non conference game (usually against a school from the other division) on Thursday.

Make up games are played Mondays and Wednesdays if needed and I believe we would cancel the cross-division Thursday game if it came down to it.

I think we need 7 pitchers if we want to compete.

Mike F
In Virginia, teams are limited to 20 regular season games.
Our HS is in an 8 team district, we play each district team twice, which leaves for us 6 non-district games. This year 4 of those will be at a tourney in SC.

Bottom line our standard schedule is 2 games a week, Tuesdays and Fridays.
First game for us (non-district) is on March 14.

So you can go far with a great 1-2 combination.
Even our district and regional tourney are spaced out pretty good allowing you to advance pretty deep if you have 2 stud pitchers.

We just started tryouts this week.

(FYI.....many of the Northern VA schools have 1 true ace, and then have a significant drop off after that. One noteable exception in our district: Madison HS. They typically have AT LEAST 2-3 excellent pitchers and an overall deep staff).
Last edited by jbbaseball
quote:
Originally posted by Coach May:
I like the conference set up with playing the same team for three game series in the same week. This is a more true gauge of who has the better team in my opinion.
I like the 3 game series too. Our league used to play conf games H/A for each of the teams, then at the end of the year, another game against each to end the season.

The way it worked, your 2 games might be on a TH/Mon, and that would mean the same P could throw in both. Then, the 3rd game would be as much as 3 weeks away, so that same P might throw that one too. It made for some exciting games, but mostly it was all about who had the best stud in the pen.


Coaches in my opinion should use the non conf games as opportunities to develop other arms in their program and not over use the ones that they already have. I sure wish that was the case everywhere, but here, once the conf games start, there are no non-conf games other than maybe the Easter tourney. The result is often that the P’s from # 5 down seldom even get any mop up innings, and that’s a shame.
quote:
Originally posted by TRhit:
Towin the percentage will have to improve in terms of coaches developing arms===do not know what it is now but it will have to improve---The coaches I know who win consistently build pitching staffs every year
Its interesting that just about anyplace and any level, coaches who consistently have successful programs in terms of W/L, have something else pretty much in common. They have more ams ready to go than the other teams, and of the arms ready to go, they’re normally much more prepared too.

IOW, they’ve developed plenty of pitching, and that pitching is better than their opponents. Isn’t it funny how something so universally true is somehow lost on so many? Wink


We are talking the HS level of development
I was hoping someone would try to quantify those different levels possible at the HS level.

From my experience, there's the stud Ps who are just flat out better than just about everyone else in the league, and definitely better than everyone else on the team.

After that, there’s the good HS P’s. They’re not GREAT, but they go out and consistently give a solid performance, and win more often than they lose.

The next level to me are the kids who can pitch, but aren’t very “refined”. IOW, they have more potential, but need work to get to that next level. Because they aren’t refined, they also aren’t consistent. They might go out an shut out the best team in the league one game, and get pounded like a drum against the league chumps the next.

Past those 3 levels are the kids who really no one knows much about because they don’t get many opportunities in games, other than mop-ups. These kids are usually the young guys or the position players who aren’t 1st string but want more PT and are willing to try anything.

Because no one knows much about them, they might get in a game and look like Sandy Koufax or Sandi Koufax, and its not likely they’ll get a start this year, and maybe never.

quote:
Originally posted by smalltown:
thanks Baseball today, I looked on their site but no findee. I imagine my kid will throw Monday and Friday, hopefully not the full 7 each time, He knows enough to monitor himself and is a low pitchcount guy.


Just to be sure you don’t get all twisted up, quit looking at innings, and start using pitch counts to judge whether or not your boy is being overused!

There is a great stat the ML teams use to evaluate college pitchers called PAP or PAP cubed. PAP is Pitcher Abuse Points, and is a really simple stat to compute. For Adult pitchers, 100 is subtracted from the number of pitches, then that number is cubed.

When my son was back in HS, I thought I’d see what would happen if I tracked PAP cubed for HS pitchers. But hat I did to try to take into account that the HS game was 7 innings, was to use 85 instead of 100 pitches.

You can go to: http://infosports.net/scorekeeper/images/pap.pdf to see what that looked like for the 4 years my boy was pitching in HS. The 2001 and 2002 seasons were mixed between Fr and JV and a few V games at the end of the year, then the other 2 seasons were all V.

But pay very close attention to how the final numbers don’t always go along with what you’d expect for the number of innings thrown, and the pitches per inning really tells a lot.

I know you believe your son has enough sense to monitor himself, but don’t forget he’s still a kid! When the hormones and testosterone get flowin’ real good during the season, don’t be surprised if he doesn’t display the greatest common sense in the world!

Keep one thing in mind if nothing else, and this isn’t a knock on any coach or the boy. The kid’s health is your responsibility! He’s really nothing more than a pawn except to you.
quote:
Originally posted by smalltown:
Thanks scorekeeper, as a stat junkie I will try it out. I see your boy improved with age. Did you have to interfere on those weeks where he was obviously being used too much and if so how did you approach it.


If you really enjoy stats and would like to compare what’s goin on at your school with what I’m seeing at ours, you’re certainly welcome to peek at http://infosports.net/scorekeeper/

I’ll normally have the up-to-date stats there for the current season, and can easily upload stuff from past seasons.

But even though that PAP is a great way to keep tabs on P’s, there’s other things that need to be looked at too. FI, go to http://infosports.net/scorekeeper/images/pitall1.pdf

You’ll see page one is pretty much normal pitching stats, but I spend a lot of time looking at page 2.

I don’t know that I HAD to interfere, but there certainly were times when I put down a not so subtle foot. But what happened with us definitely wasn’t normal. We had a war going on from the time my boy was getting ready to start his Fr season, until the day he threw his last game.

My boy and most of the others did everything they were asked to do and more, but the V coach we had was one of those strange guys who would grudgingly give credit when he was forced to, but most of the time everything that went right was because of him, and everything that went wrong was the fault of the players, and he never hesitated to let people know.

But like I said, our relationship to the coach was very strange indeed. He was basically a bully and a huge proponent of negative re-enforcement and punishment. Although I’ve always recognized how important baseball can be, nothing about it has ever been life or death to me, and I’ve always tried to keep in mind that the players are literally kids. Not a good combination.

For the most part, I let the boy do what he wanted as far as pitching went, and in retrospect, that was very wrong! He’d go out there if he was dying and never complain. One day he was throwing and it was one of those “meaningful games”. He was doing well, but the game was close and I could see he was laboring.

After the 4th I asked him if he was ok and he said yes. I asked him after the 5th, and after the 6th when I saw his fielders have to help him off the field, I told him he needed to shut it down, but he insisted he was ok. He went out and threw the 7th, won the game, then collapsed after the last pitch because he couldn’t stand up. His back hurt him so bad, he had to be carried off the field, and it ended up that he couldn’t walk right for 2 days.

Of course a week later he said he was fine and ready to throw again, and like a jackass I let him, but I’ve kicked myself many a time because I was just flat out wrong. I was so intent on seeing him succeed, I didn’t remember that he was still my child and I wasn’t supposed to let him put himself in that kind of harm’s way.

But the thing that I think people should find really frightening is, my son was THE MAN, and yet he was still doing stupid things to keep himself on the field. The kids who weren’t so lucky, would really do stupid things! I saw players out there playing literally with tape keeping them from bleeding like stuck pigs. One boy played 2 weeks with 3 broken fingers, another played 2 games with a fractured leg, and let me tell you, that there wasn’t a game or a practice where at least 2 of our regular P’s had arms so sore they’d have tears in their eyes when they were throwing.

No matter what people think, kids that age seldom are able to process things in the same way an adult does, and the guy who you count on to keep them out of trouble, the coach, sometimes can’t do it because the kids don’t tell them what’s goin’ on for fear they’ll loss a start or a spot.
Wow Scorekeeper that is a real eye opener. I see myself in some of that, I made the mistake of letting my kid pitch the state legion championship game last summer after he had thrown the maximum allowable innings in each of the previous 5 days, I still kick myself for that bit of stupidity, I talked him into it no less. After reading the various threads on this great site I can see I need to realize my kid is just 16 and I need to have his best interests always at the front.
I see too that knucklehead coaches aren't all that rare, I thought we had a special case, my kid had the guts to say no when the coach said "to pitch varsity for me you have to throw the curveball" He told him "fine, I am not doing it" and threw JV all season. He figures he is done growing and has a 12-6 he will throw this year, but not to excess. There is a kid on his team with a toasted arm because the coaches all loved his bender. However I need to be the adult and rely on him to make the correct decision, he wants to win too badly.
quote:
Originally posted by smalltown:
Wow Scorekeeper that is a real eye opener. I see myself in some of that, I made the mistake of letting my kid pitch the state legion championship game last summer after he had thrown the maximum allowable innings in each of the previous 5 days, I still kick myself for that bit of stupidity, I talked him into it no less. After reading the various threads on this great site I can see I need to realize my kid is just 16 and I need to have his best interests always at the front.
Ordinarily I wouldn’t beat up on people for being proud parents and ignorant about what goes on, but on this one you get a big SHAME ON YOU!

OK, that’s enough. I’d really get upset except for one thing, everyone having anything to do with youth sports, including parents, coaches, fans, administrators, sponsors, and the players, get bombarded with sports dogma from day one, and sports dogma is a cruel taskmaster.

From the time the kiddies start swatting the mobiles hanging over the crib or throwing their first NERF ball, us parents begin to see signs of the little ones going on to the fame and glory of ticker tape parades, multimillion dollar contracts, plaques in the various HOFs, and later life spent talking about how the different games should be played.

We can’t help it! This isn’t the old days where there were only a newspaper kids actually had to read, or the radio where kids had to actually use their brain to imagine what was going on. Now we’re pelted with not only the wisdom of the ages to help us understand the games much better so they can be coached and played better! We also get to see in vivid detail, those heroes display their feet of clay.

But through it all, the dogma remains. Think about how confusing this is to an immature mind. the very heroes we encourage out kids to emulate, show up on ESPN, news channels, talk shows, video games, and what not, breaking every written and moral law imaginable, then begging our pardon because they were “only human”.

And all the time we’re deluged by wonderful dogmatic utterances such as, [No pain, no gain, If ya ain’t cheatin’ ya ain’t tryin’, If ya aren’t givin’ 110%, you need to quit and leave the game to someone who does, …![/I]

Heck, we’ve all fallen into the trap at least a little bit. Its part of the competitive spirit everyone hopes to instill into their kids. The trouble is, not too many people really understand what’s goin’ on until its way too late, if they understand it at all.


I see too that knucklehead coaches aren't all that rare, I thought we had a special case, my kid had the guts to say no when the coach said "to pitch varsity for me you have to throw the curveball" He told him "fine, I am not doing it" and threw JV all season. He figures he is done growing and has a 12-6 he will throw this year, but not to excess. There is a kid on his team with a toasted arm because the coaches all loved his bender. However I need to be the adult and rely on him to make the correct decision, he wants to win too badly. There’s 300,000,000 people in this country. Assuming that only the brilliant ones will gravitate to sports is being pretty silly isn’t it? Wink

But your kid is lucky. Evidently he wasn’t willing to risk his heatlh for a chance to gain glory, but what percentage of kids that age do you figger will make the same decision?
Heck, the 1st thing that’ll happen is, all the curve ball apologists will come out of the woodwork screaming and hollering that it isn’t the curve ball that hurts pitchers, its an improperly thrown one that’s also used indiscriminately that’s the trouble.

Then there’s the folks who get all upset about things like pitch counts for little kids, safety rules, and Lord knows what else. And how about those wonderful folks who equate having MPR to raising a bunch of sissies who’ll likely turn out being ***? Those are some of the same people who will pay the $495 per team to travel who knows how far to have their kids do this. http://www.okusssabaseball.com/6%20&%20Under%20Tball%20Nationals.html

Everything for the athletes has to be more, sooner, better, higher level, and more competitive! The bottom line is, athletics have become a very deep pit that can and do often trap many a participant. It doesn’t have to be that way, and for many it isn’t, but it takes a great deal of vigilance and good decision making.

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