3rd strike appeal mechanic

quote:

Originally posted by HawksCoach:
2 outs runner on third. check swing on a curveball in the dirt and ball gets away from the catcher. Runner on 3rd scores easily. After retrieving ball catcher asks PU to appeal swing and BU says he went. Batter still in batters box is tagged out - inning over and run does not score.
Options seem to be:
1.) Umpire timing is correct.
2.) PU should have immediately gone to BU not waiting for appeal request.
3.) PU should not have granted appeal.
4.) BU should call the swing before being asked.
5.) BU should have said no swing.
Thanks for the comments.

2, followed by 4 (after giving PU a brief opportunity for 2).

Regardless of the umps mechanics and what should have happened....am trying to figure out why the run from 3rd did not count as he scored before the tag. Does making a tag versus throwing to 1st change anything...(?????)am totally clueless and curious about this one.

quote:

Originally posted by S. Abrams:
Regardless of the umps mechanics and what should have happened....am trying to figure out why the run from 3rd did not count as he scored before the tag. Does making a tag versus throwing to 1st change anything...(?????)am totally clueless and curious about this one.

No run can score when third out is made by batter/runner before safely reaching first.

BU is putting PU in a real bind for calling a swing either in #2 or #4. I am all for getting it right but this would cause a major SNAFU for all concerned.

That being said......

That's exactly I was thinking but this was something I'd never seen or even heard about and was wondering if this came under some sort of timing play based on how things went down. Batter must have been deaf because I'm sure everybody and his brother were probably screaming "RUN". Can imagine the problem the batter had if PU initally ruled the pitch a ball and then BU overturned on appeal. Ouch...the kid is between a rock and hardplace.

Pretty alert play by the catcher...covered his butt on not blocking the wild pitch pretty well.

Dash has it exactly right. On a check swing on strike three, the PU should ask immediately. If he doesn't and the BU would rule a swing then he needs to go ahead and call it.

Since many readers here probably don't have access to the Major League Baseball Umpires Manual, which is the primary source of this mechanic:

8.7 "VOLUNTARY STRIKE"
In the situation where the third strike eludes the catcher on a half-swing and the batter-runner is entitled to run to first base, the appeal should be made to the base umpire instantly (without waiting for a request from the defense); but even if the appeal is not instant, the appropriate umpire should immediately and voluntarily make the call of strike IF the base umpire is going to reverse the plate umpire's call. This will give the batter the immediate opportunity to run.
[Capitalization and bolding verbatim from the MLBUM]

Note that this is very slightly different than #4 listed above, in that a voluntary call by the BU should only be made if he is going to rule a strike.

As far as I know, FED and NCAA haven't published any mechanic to be used in this situation, but IMO this should be applied in all codes.

quote:

As far as I know, FED and NCAA haven't published any mechanic to be used in this situation, but IMO this should be applied in all codes.

Yea, that's all well and good but what about reality? Do you really want to overturn the PU on this situation? If this is your first game of the season, summer, or ever with your partner are u going to open this can of worms? I'd be furious if my partner BU hits me with a reversal appeal on this situation. All it's going to do is cause some real problems all around.

I bring this up because at HS level, you generally don't work with the same people very much (at least in our chapter). Also, this has NEVER come up for discussion purposes during our chapter mtgs in my 10+ years with this chapter or any of the others I've worked with for that matter.

Comments?

quote:

Originally posted by therefump:

quote:

As far as I know, FED and NCAA haven't published any mechanic to be used in this situation, but IMO this should be applied in all codes.

Yea, that's all well and good but what about reality? Do you really want to overturn the PU on this situation? If this is your first game of the season, summer, or ever with your partner are u going to open this can of worms? I'd be furious if my partner BU hits me with a reversal appeal on this situation. All it's going to do is cause some real problems all around.

I bring this up because at HS level, you generally don't work with the same people very much (at least in our chapter). Also, this has NEVER come up for discussion purposes during our chapter mtgs in my 10+ years with this chapter or any of the others I've worked with for that matter.

Comments?

Just another little tidbit to add to your pregame conference with your partner....once covered no one will be mad or suprised if the BU comes out with the call...

I am fortunate to work a good amount of games with a regular partner....we have a set patter for our pregame...and this is the last one...

PU to BU: "If he goes on a check swing 3rd strike...call it out.."

quote:

Originally posted by therefump:
I'd be furious if my partner BU hits me with a reversal appeal on this situation.

Whatever for?

quote:

Originally posted by therefump:
BU is putting PU in a real bind for calling a swing either in #2 or #4. I am all for getting it right but this would cause a major SNAFU for all concerned.

That being said......

Again you show ignorance. Dash has explained the correct mechanic as prescribe by the PBUA, MLBUA, etc.

quote:

Originally posted by therefump:

Yea, that's all well and good but what about reality? Do you really want to overturn the PU on this situation?

As a BU at the amateur level, I would not ring up a batter for a swing without the plate umpire asking if you have not discussed it in pre-game. This is something that must be pre-gamed if it is not an official mechanic in your association.

That said, I think this mechanic should definitely be pre-gamed and used as needed!

quote:

Again you show ignorance. Dash has explained the correct mechanic as prescribe by the PBUA, MLBUA, etc.

Ignorance? I think not. I'm not opening up a can of sh*t at the lower levels. If you want to rule with an IRON fist and go exactly by the book (PBUC, etc.) I wouldn't work with you below HS Varsity. I've worked with those fellas who try and show how they're allegedly ML Umpires at the lower levels and it shows by the problems they get themselves into.....Stay up there and leave the kids alone.

BTW, when was this situation last called in MLB?

Ref,

If BU has a swing, you can bet your life the D is going to ask for an appeal. The pitch was called a ball. As far as the batter is concerned, there's no need to run to 1st base. He's entitled to know that the pitch is an uncaught 3rd strike and he has become a runner.

On the other hand, if the batter took off for 1st, the catcher is entitled to know if he should attempt to throw him out.

Both need this information right away. That is why BU comes up with the swing call if PU doesn't.

As far as your eloquent statement about refusing to open cans at the lower levels, don't you think you might be delivered a pre-opened can of something when the batter gets tagged out while still in the box?

Mr. Dash

First, let me admit that I've never thought about this situation until this thread came up. I believe I alluded to this by stating that my current Chapter and others I've belonged never talked about this situation or any techniques to deal with it.

Now, to answer your question about getting a pre-opened can of you-know-what.....let me reply with more questions of my own.

First, how many BUs are in your crew PU? Unless you're doing playoffs or doing Triple A ball I would assume there are 2 of you. Next, assuming you've only got a single BU, is he in the A or B or C position? Now, with a runner on 3rd, I would rule out "A". Correct?

Finally, do you mean to tell me that with 2 strikes on the batter, a pitch is thrown and the PU calls a BALL on a check swing that he called defacto you're going to overrule him from the B or C position?

Where am I missing the point? I know I'm dense. I'm a former pitcher.....therefore, I qualify for a mind bailout. Help me out on this.

Frankly, therefump, I am with you.

To make the automatic override from the B or C would be much more controversial than going with your partner's call.

I can just see that call on a right-handed batter made from the C position.

You might as well just call time, call the BR out and preemptively eject his coach.

Slightly off topic, but wanted to ask in a thread that's getting replies:

First day on here and reading some other threads I notice problems with catchers setting up deep.

Don't we have an actual catcher's box we can enforce?

For instance, on a pitch-out a catcher can't leave his box before the ball is released, so I know the box exists. I'm pretty sure it has a back end to it also. Why not draw it with our feet if needbe to save ourselves from the catcher who is 5 feet behind the dish?

quote:

Originally posted by therefump:
assuming you've only got a single BU, is he in the A or B or C position? Now, with a runner on 3rd, I would rule out "A". Correct?

Yes. BU would be in C.

quote:

Finally, do you mean to tell me that with 2 strikes on the batter, a pitch is thrown and the PU calls a BALL on a check swing that he called defacto you're going to overrule him from the B or C position?

If I'm sure it was a swing, yes.

quote:

Where am I missing the point? I know I'm dense. I'm a former pitcher.....therefore, I qualify for a mind bailout. Help me out on this.

You are assuming it is not possible for BU to see a swing from B or C. You can see a swing from any position. Is it more difficult from the middle of the infield? Sure, but if you see it, call it. Many times I have seen a PU miss an OBVIOUS swing because some J. Varitek wannabe stood up in front of him. If you KNOW it was a swing, you're not doing your job if you let it go.

quote:

Frankly, therefump, I am with you.

To make the automatic override from the B or C would be much more controversial than going with your partner's call.

I can just see that call on a right-handed batter made from the C position.

You might as well just call time, call the BR out and preemptively eject his coach.

Now, since I'm an umpire and have limited vocabulary I did not articulate my position on this subject very well. Renoump said it succinctly.

I'll state it again: this type of call should be made on 3,4 man crews in MiLB and above. Maybe I can see it in American Legion Playoffs, HS Varsity, but in a 2 man crew there's no way as PU I'm going to allow this call to happen. If I'm BU I'm not gonna call it. If I'm PU and BU shows me up like that we're going to have a serious conversation after the game if we didn't discuss it pre-game.

Lastly, I would tie this into another thread about being blacklisted from a league. If I start enforcing rules such as the above in LL, etc. you're **** right they'd blacklist me and I wouldn't blame them. They don't understand the nuances of the rules. I WOULD LOVE TO HEAR FROM COACHES ABOUT THIS (Did you know this is possible, etc.)

Alex, post your question in a new thread. Good question.

quote:

Originally posted by therefump:

quote:

Frankly, therefump, I am with you.

To make the automatic override from the B or C would be much more controversial than going with your partner's call.

I can just see that call on a right-handed batter made from the C position.

You might as well just call time, call the BR out and preemptively eject his coach.

Now, since I'm an umpire and have limited vocabulary I did not articulate my position on this subject very well. Renoump said it succinctly.

I'll state it again: this type of call should be made on 3,4 man crews in MiLB and above. Maybe I can see it in American Legion Playoffs, HS Varsity, but in a 2 man crew there's no way as PU I'm going to allow this call to happen. If I'm BU I'm not gonna call it. If I'm PU and BU shows me up like that we're going to have a serious conversation after the game if we didn't discuss it pre-game.

Lastly, I would tie this into another thread about being blacklisted from a league. If I start enforcing rules such as the above in LL, etc. you're **** right they'd blacklist me and I wouldn't blame them. They don't understand the nuances of the rules. I WOULD LOVE TO HEAR FROM COACHES ABOUT THIS (Did you know this is possible, etc.)

So when the D coach wants an appeal on the check swing, what are you going to tell him?

quote:

Originally posted by Alex7:
Slightly off topic, but wanted to ask in a thread that's getting replies:

First day on here and reading some other threads I notice problems with catchers setting up deep.

Don't we have an actual catcher's box we can enforce?

For instance, on a pitch-out a catcher can't leave his box before the ball is released, so I know the box exists. I'm pretty sure it has a back end to it also. Why not draw it with our feet if needbe to save ourselves from the catcher who is 5 feet behind the dish?

A catcher who sets up 5 feet behind the plate is well within the catcher's box. The back line is 8 feet from the point of the plate.

Alex,
If you read the history of baseball, a catcher used to set up anywhere from 10-20 feet behind the plate. Thus, foul tips, caught third strikes, and other weirdness in the rules were invented.

As a coach I want the right call to be made - the batter swung (IMO) so no issue there. This is not a winnable argument (there aren't many - lol) so my goal as the OC would be to create the impression I was owed a call. That might make me a rat but my team was jeopordized by a questionable (difficult no doubt) call.
Thanks to all who responded.

quote:

Originally posted by HawksCoach:
As a coach I want the right call to be made...
...my goal as the OC would be to create the impression I was owed a call.

Can't have both, coach. And there is no such thing as being "owed" a call.

Dash,
Again, a can of worms is opened. "No swing". As a PU I'm going to **** well sure that I've got a swing or not.
Also, I'm not going to anticpate a call.
Lastly, don't bait me. That call is a PITA to make and at the levels I'm talking I'm going to tell the coach "he didn't swing, I saw it coach". End of discussion.

Where do you coaches come up with that stuff? As my partner would say "I can't make this stuff up?". Owed you a call?
If we did that (and I would quit first) there would be all hell to pay.

I gotta admit I thought it was funny when I read it. Then I got a little perturbed. Then I got fine again. Just call me Cybil.

"Owed you a call". I can see it now. The police pull you over for speeding doing 150 mph in a 25 mph zone.

He writes you the ticket and you claim the car can't go anywhere near that fast. He then tells you "I owe you one".

quote:

Originally posted by therefump:
Where do you coaches come up with that stuff? As my partner would say "I can't make this stuff up?". Owed you a call?

Honestly? Most of us get it from terrible umps but there are some of us who think we should be owed a call but they are wrong. I have went out to discuss calls and the guy said "coach - I missed it. My bad and I will make it up to you later on." When they say that I lose all respect for them right there.

If I go out and an ump sticks by what he ruled (even if I am 100% sure he missed it) or admits that he missed it but will work harder next time to get it right I really have no problem. I'm still not happy but I respect those guys for doing the right thing or what they think is the right thing.

If there is an obscure rule that one team breaks but does not gain an advantage then let it go. For example - one year we were playing on a garbage field and the mound wasn't taken care of. There was a hole at the rubber and where the plant foot hits. My pitcher adjusted by moving to the side of the rubber. His right foot was on the rubber but his left foot was slightly off (windup). The field ump balked him on it. He said both feet must be within the rubber.

As for the swing / no swing situation described here - I teach my guys to take off on the check swing. If it's a ball they can be brought back and if it was a swing then they have a chance. It's up to the defense to know what's going on. You can't guarantee a field ump will know this rule or even make it.

Well said, coach. I have not recently worked with anyone who would say "I'll make it up". I had a "kid" rookie I was mentoring about 15 yrs ago say "I told the coach I'd make it up to him since I kicked the call". Between innings he tells me what he said to the coach. After telling him there's no way we do #%*%%#@ makeup calls I called the coach over and the three of us had a private session where I told the coach that it would never happen on my watch. He just smiled and walked away.

Hey, if we were computers the game wouldn't be half as interesting. Right?

quote:

Originally posted by therefump:
.
Lastly, don't bait me. That call is a PITA to make and at the levels I'm talking I'm going to tell the coach "he didn't swing, I saw it coach". End of discussion.

I guess inherein lies the difference in attitude and practice.

I do not do kiddy ball. I work with coaches who know that OBR requires me to check with my partner when requested by the defense on a check swing. So I can't just say "I saw, it, he didn't swing."

The mechanic of which Dash speaks is the one taught at all respectable schools, clinics and camps. I've been told that Western Region LL at San Bernadino also teaches this mechanic.

I don't understand the resistance to it. It's best for the players as well as the umpires.

quote:

I guess inherein lies the difference in attitude and practice.

I do not do kiddy ball. I work with coaches who know that OBR requires me to check with my partner when requested by the defense on a check swing. So I can't just say "I saw, it, he didn't swing."

The mechanic of which Dash speaks is the one taught at all respectable schools, clinics and camps. I've been told that Western Region LL at San Bernadino also teaches this mechanic.

I don't understand the resistance to it. It's best for the players as well as the umpires.

Well, good for you. I think it's proper if taught at the levels I do but it's not and the coaches in this area wouldn't have a clue (yes, even at HS). My comments were directed more at the lower age groups that I do once HS is done.

Having said that, I will bring it up at our final chapter meeting and see what our board says about it. Again, first I ever heard of this mechanic. Live and learn.

No issue that there is literally no such thing as being "owed" a call but why do you think coaches come out to argue? Calls are rarely - if ever - reversed.

.....now, if you folks from California (can't do the Arnold impersonation) can learn to manage your money at the state level you can come across the country and teach us baseball......

Coach,
Tradition? It's the only sport where non-players can come on the field to argue a call. More importantly, I think some coaches feel that you can plant a seed in our ear. Also, coaches argue with not knowing the rules. Coaches can PROTEST the game. That's important if we mis-interpret rules.
Hey, maybe they even learn a thing or two.

quote:

Originally posted by therefump:
.....now, if you folks from California (can't do the Arnold impersonation) can learn to manage your money at the state level you can come across the country and teach us baseball......

I don't know if that was directed at 3Finger or myself but I will say I don't like these morons running this state either.

I never said you have to use the mechanic, just that I think it is a good one and can work well if the umpires on the field are on the same page.

therefump - I wrote "create the impression I was owed a call". You responded "where do you coaches come up with that stuff?" then later say that a coach would argue "to plant a seed in our ear". That is what was meant in my first email. Aren't we saying the same thing?

To Welpe:

The comment about CA was directed at JIMMY03. He knows baseball. It was made as a tongue-in-cheek slam. We don't do the mechanic in PA and CA can't balance it's checkbook. Equi-slam I suppose.

Nothing personal. I think the mechanic could absolutely work and I already stated that it was not really thought about out here. We've got someone who was in our chapter until 6 yrs ago. He's now a reserve MLB Umpire. He taught one of our clinics here in January and it never came up. Trust me, it will be talked about here at some point.

As far as not using it, re-read my posts. I stand by them. If JIMMY03 doesn't want to lower himself to do the "kids" that's his issue. Why isn't he in MLB if he's so good.

BTW, it's extremely hard to joke on these boards because we all read them differently.

quote:

therefump - I wrote "create the impression I was owed a call". You responded "where do you coaches come up with that stuff?" then later say that a coach would argue "to plant a seed in our ear". That is what was meant in my first email. Aren't we saying the same thing?

Hey coach,
Sure we are. Please make sure you underline the TRY and plant the seed. Personally, you're not going to sway my calls in any direction. I try and get Alzheimer's disease after each play. Otherwise I would go insane. Now, what was that I was just commenting about......

The mechanic described by Dash is used in many groups, including mine, that has members that attend pro clinics. A coach that doesn't know thhe mechanic is of no concern of ours, they don't know a lot of our mechanics. It works, it is the best for the game and should be used. We didn't use the safe signal on a DTS for many yrs but most do now. This is just another mechanic born of a play that blew up. This saves confusion and shouldn't result in any type of ejection. It let's the catcher know he has to make a play and the BR know he has to run. What will get an ejection is calling a strike after the catcher has tagged the batter.

I've played a lot of ball starting in the 60's, I remember about 3 umpires calls or actions on the field from my playing days; one hit me in the head throwing a ball into play, I was F1. This was a HS game, our routine was on any new ball put back in play F2 threw a rocket to F5, F5 then gave the ball to F1, just a way we stayed in the game..did it since we started 90' bases. So as HP Ump runs out to check on me, luckily it was a pretty soft lob and it hit right on top a the coconut, it hurt but I was uninjured, all I could say was "give it to the catch please".. Any rate a well respected umpire who's now in our states HS Hall.

The other two, I saw one time; HS state play-off. I'm R1, pitch comes in high, B checks his swing, HPU springs staight up and out points to his partner did he go? I swear HPU didnt' even have "he" out of his throat when BU "Yes, rings him up". It impressed me greatly, these two were that tight.

So from the OP:
Options seem to be:
1.) Umpire timing is correct.
2.) PU should have immediately gone to BU not waiting for appeal request.
3.) PU should not have granted appeal.
4.) BU should call the swing before being asked.
5.) BU should have said no swing.

I'm picking 2-4 and 5.
2. Since the rules say you gotta ask anyway, and you want to communicate the right call asap, I've always asked with out prompting from the D.

4. I'm for it, think it's a great idea, for sure the timing is critical. I would hate to see the BU too quickly singal "no" just as HPU is ringing the B up, for ex. IMO BU free lancing out there should be reserved for DTS's.
I mean we see annoying coaches begging for this everytime a batter moves his bat as it is, imagine an annoying partner out there signaling on every pitch..

5. Only if it was the right call.


From OBR:
Rule 9.02(c) Comment: The manager or the catcher may request the plate umpire to ask his partner for help on a half swing when the plate umpire calls the pitch a ball, but not when the pitch is called a strike.
The manager may not complain that the umpire made an improper call, but only that he did not ask his partner for help. Field umpires must be alerted to the request from the plate umpire and quickly respond. Managers may not protest the call of a ball or strike on the pretense they are asking for information about a half swing.
Appeals on a half swing may be made only on the call of ball and when asked to appeal, the home plate umpire must refer to a base umpire for his judgment on the half swing. Should the base umpire call the pitch a strike, the strike call shall prevail.
Baserunners must be alert to the possibility that the base umpire on appeal from the plate umpire may reverse the call of a ball to the call of a strike, in which event the runner is in jeopardy of being out by the catcher’s throw. Also, a catcher must be alert in a base stealing situation if a ball call is reversed to a strike by the base umpire upon appeal from the plate umpire.
The ball is in play on appeal on a half swing.
On a half swing, if the manager comes out to argue with first or third base umpire and if after being warned he persists in arguing, he can be ejected as he is now arguing over a called ball or strike.