4 outs needed to prevent run?

R1, R3, 1 out.
Flyball to OF -- caught. (2nd out)
R1 left too soon. They throw to 1B for the out. (3rd out)
Meanwhile, R3 has tagged and arrives at home before that out at 1B is made.
But R3 misses home plate.
Defense tags him -- run doesn't count.


Or similarly ... if R3 had also left too soon, and after getting the out at 1B, they throw to 3B for the appealed out. (4th out -- required in order to void the run)

Doesn't happen very often -- but it could.

Runner on second, two outs -

Clean hit to the outfield, runner on second base rounds third, but misses the base. He scores right before the batter/runner is thrown out at second for the third out.

Defense appeals the missed base at third - bingo, advantageous fourth out and no run scores.

quote:

Originally posted by RPD:
R1, R3, 1 out.
Flyball to OF -- caught. (2nd out)
R1 left too soon. They throw to 1B for the out. (3rd out)
Meanwhile, R3 has tagged and arrives at home before that out at 1B is made.
But R3 misses home plate.
Defense tags him -- run doesn't count.


Or similarly ... if R3 had also left too soon, and after getting the out at 1B, they throw to 3B for the appealed out. (4th out -- required in order to void the run)

Doesn't happen very often -- but it could.

Can't they just appeal the R3 missing home, run doesn't count, yet the man was never actually called out. Or if the 3rd out is made at first and the home plate ump sees that the runner never touched home, cant he rule that since the 3rd out was effected prior to the runner touching home, the run doesn't count. I don't think since the third out had already been effected before home was touched by R3 a tag or an appeal would be needed.

quote:

Can't they just appeal the R3 missing home, run doesn't count, yet the man was never actually called out. Or if the 3rd out is made at first and the home plate ump sees that the runner never touched home, cant he rule that since the 3rd out was effected prior to the runner touching home, the run doesn't count. I don't think since the third out had already been effected before home was touched by R3 a tag or an appeal would be needed.

Let's break this into parts:
Your 1st sentence: Yes, they could have done that. But in this scenario they initially noticed R1 and played on him first.

The rest: I think you have a valid point there. So let's just go with CB's scenario (or my 2nd scenario). Those are a lot clearner.

Just FYI, here's OBR 7.10(d)

"If the violation occurs during a play which ends a half inning, the appeal must be made before the defensive team leaves the field." ...

"Appeal plays may require an umpire to recognize an apparent "fourth out." If the third out is made during a play in which an appeal play is sustained on another runner, the appeal play decision takes precedence in determining the out. If there is more than one appeal during a play that ends a half inning, the defense may elect to take the out that gives it the advantage. For the purpose of this rule, the defensive team has "left the field" when the pitcher and all infielders have left fair territory on their way to the bench or clubhouse."

quote:

Originally posted by RPD:

quote:

Can't they just appeal the R3 missing home, run doesn't count, yet the man was never actually called out. Or if the 3rd out is made at first and the home plate ump sees that the runner never touched home, cant he rule that since the 3rd out was effected prior to the runner touching home, the run doesn't count. I don't think since the third out had already been effected before home was touched by R3 a tag or an appeal would be needed.

Let's break this into parts:
Your 1st sentence: Yes, they could have done that. But in this scenario they initially noticed R1 and played on him first.

The rest: I think you have a valid point there. So let's just go with CB's scenario (or my 2nd scenario). Those are a lot clearner.

Just FYI, here's OBR 7.10(d)

"If the violation occurs during a play which ends a half inning, the appeal must be made before the defensive team leaves the field." ...

"Appeal plays may require an umpire to recognize an apparent "fourth out." If the third out is made during a play in which an appeal play is sustained on another runner, the appeal play decision takes precedence in determining the out. If there is more than one appeal during a play that ends a half inning, the defense may elect to take the out that gives it the advantage. For the purpose of this rule, the defensive team has "left the field" when the pitcher and all infielders have left fair territory on their way to the bench or clubhouse."

I don’t' like that ruling, if the umpire sees that the runner didn't tag up and then the 3rd out was effected, I don't think you should have to appeal that. The 3rd out was effected, the runner never returned to 3rd to tag up prior to the last out being made, so the run doesn't count, because he didn't tag up. Not sure why you would have to appeal it when the last out had already been effected prior to the runner tagging up (which he never did) and crossing home. But hey that's just me.

Missing a base and failing to return to a base (tag up) are always appeal plays. The umpire will never call them unless they are properly appealed.

quote:

cccsdad

Dash is exactly right. Leaving early and missed bases are always appeals. You have no ability to disallow a run even if you see it without an appeal by the defense. Most of the time they are so hung up watching the play in the field, they don't notice what the runner does.

Runner coming home and misses the plate but defense doesn't notice it - what do you do?

We had a scrimmage game last week and the other team had a runner coming home and I felt he missed home plate. I looked immediately at the ump to see if he was watching and he was. Before I could do anything the ump points at the plate after he crossed. To me he was saying that he touched the plate and the run counts - if I am correct this is the way you are suppossed to do it. Since he pointed I didn't ask for an appeal because in is actions he told me he saw the runner touch the plate.

But what do you do if the runner misses and the defense doesn't appeal?

I can't see how you allow the run because he didn't physically touch the plate BUT do you call the out and bail out the defense for not paying attention and use the "out of the baseline" defense (or something close)?

PU should not point to the plate, ever. In the situation you described, he should not have signaled anything. The runner is considered to have acquired the plate when he passed it. He is still subject to being called out on proper appeal. If there is no appeal, the run scores.

In the play you referenced, there probably would have been no downside to appealing it anyway -- then finding out what his pointing to the plate meant.

Following up on Dash's statement -- "Missing a base and failing to return to a base (tag up) are always appeal plays. The umpire will never call them unless they are properly appealed."

OBR 7.10 says: "Any runner shall be called out, on appeal, when ... (d) He fails to touch home base and makes no attempt to return to that base, and home base is tagged. Any appeal under this rule must be made before the next pitch, or any play or attempted play.

So if you don't appeal it before the next pitch, the run (by default) has to count(even if the runner missed home plate).

I didn't know about the point thing and everything else makes sense.

Thanks

Let me add one exception:

If it is a force play, and the runner beats the throw but misses the base, he should be signaled safe. He's still subject to being banged out on proper appeal, but there are no accidental appeals in FED. It has to be an obvious appeal. If the runner IMMEDIATELY returns in an attempt to touch the base, he must be tagged out. If not, and the fielder must chase him, the appeal can be made by touching the base and appealing the miss to the umpire.

Dash,

Thanks for posting here. Your answers are always enlightening. Let me go back to a scenario mentioned earlier in the thread:
- batted ball
- 2 outs
- R3 comes home but misses plate
- 3rd out is made elsewhere during the play -- but made AFTER R3 passes home plate.
- defensive team leaves the field without appealing the R3 situation

Which is true?
A. Run counts, since R3 passed home plate before the 3rd out was made (and no appeal was made).
B. Run doesn't count, since he never touched home before the 3rd out was made.

Here's the reason for my question. You had stated:

quote:

The runner is considered to have acquired the plate when he passed it

Just wondering if that was a rule, an interpretation, or something else.

Here are the parts of OBR that apply to this situation. (caps are mine)

7.01 “A runner acquires the right to an unoccupied base when he TOUCHES it before he is out.”

2.00 A BASE is one of four points which must be TOUCHED by a runner in order to score a run; more usually applied to the canvas bags AND THE RUBBER PLATE which mark the base points.

4.09 “HOW A TEAM SCORES. (a) One run shall be scored each time a runner legally advances to and TOUCHES first, second, third and home base before three men are put out to end the inning.” Exceptions .. force out, etc.

7/10 “Any runner shall be called out, ON APPEAL, when ... (d) He fails to touch home base and makes no attempt to return to that base, and home base is tagged. Any appeal under this rule must be made before the next pitch, or any play or attempted play.”

I'm guessing that most experienced umps would rule that the run counts ... but there do seem to be parts of OBR that justify it not counting, since he never actualy touched home plate. Can you clear this one up?

Thanks!

If the defense leaves the field in this case without aan appeal then the run scores. His paaing the plate is the same as tagging unless they do appeal. The tricky part is when he misses, the third out is made and then he tries to retouch. In this case the retouch would not count.

MST -- thank you for the clarification. Have you ever had this actually happen in one of your games?

RPD, in your sitch, Mike is correct - the run would count. Any miss of a base must be appealed for the runner to be called out.

In Mike's sitch (runner corrects his baserunning error after the 3rd out is made), there are 2 schools of thought, each from veteran major league umpires, at 180 degrees to each other, with neither supported by written rule.

One says that when the runner comes back to touch the plate, he changes the time the run scored from when he passed it to when he touched it - take the run off WITHOUT an appeal.

The second says that the runner acquired the base when he passed it, and his retouch is merely correcting a baserunning error, which CAN be done after the 3rd out, and which precludes an appeal for the miss.

I'm in school #2.

Dash is correct about the two camp thing. I find myself in the former not the latter. I can't remember which MLB umps made the different rulings but I would suspect Evans and Roder. Rick isn't a major league ump but does do many of their interps.

Wendelstedt is the other major leaguer.

So if you're the baserunner wouldn't it be best to NOT go back and touch the plate if you miss?

Reason I say that is in the first case, the run will be taken off. In the second case, you're likely to tip off the defense which would give them reason to appeal.

Right?

Yes, but in the second case, the appeal must be made before the runner touches the plate, or the appeal is denied.