7-8 hole hitters

Why do you think those batters should have an approach that’s any different from the other hitters in the lineup?

Don’t you think the situation has a lot more to do with batting approach than what position a batter has in the lineup? FI, would you want the #7 batter’s approach to be the same if the 1^st time he came up the bases were loaded with no outs and already ahead by 2 runs, or with 2 outs, no one on and already down 4 runs?

Get a good pitch to hit and hit it hard somewhere! Amazing! I am agreeing completely with Stats on this one!

2Bag;

1. What is the BA of your #7 and #8 hitters? What are their RBI average per time at bat?

2. What are their "on base" %?

3. Is the opposing coach calling the pitches?

4. Are you creative?

5. Who is the opposing coach? Do you know this coach?

Bob

Santa Rosa, California

I know there are lots of ways to load a line up, some alternate power down the line, some load up their best up front and tail off down low.  In general, my view is that 7 should have either power or speed, but won't be as talented as those 1-6.  8 is a parking spot for my least talented offensive player who is in the starting line up.  From there, the situation and the talent dictate the approach.

Agree with Stats. Every hitter in the line ups AB should to be determined on the game situation present. 

I want my 7/8 hitters to be contact hitters.  Power is nice, but not necessary in those two spots.  I usually reserve the 7/8 hole for solid defensive players that are also getting the ball in play but may need a little more work or fine tuning at the plate.  I agree with Stats, the mental approach should never change.  Regardless of where they are in the lineup, all hitters should have a plan when they step into the box.  A lot of that will depend on base runners, number of outs, fielders positions, etc. 

Originally Posted by Consultant:

2Bag;

1. What is the BA of your #7 and #8 hitters? What are their RBI average per time at bat?

2. What are their "on base" %?

…

I don’t understand what the numbers from those particular stats have to do with how a coach would want a player to approach an at bat.

I’ve been the statistician for our team for a good number of years and I’ve seen players with the same numbers get them in very different ways, which would mean they likely take very different approaches and have very different skills.

FI, a player who has an OBP of 1.000 might get it from having 20 walks and 5 hit or 20 hits and 5 walks in 25 PAs. A player who gets 1 hit and walks 9 times in 10 PAs has the same BA as another who gets 10 hits in 10 ABs. A player who gets 1 RBI in 10 PAs because he walked with the bases loaded has the same RBI per AB as the player who got 1 RBI in 10 PAs by hitting a HR.

What I’m trying to say here is, this is the kind of use of stats that turns a lot of people off of using stats. IMHO, a player’s BABIP or MRU% are much better ways to judge how he should approach any particular PA.v

On our Santa Rosa Legion team in the 1980's, we played El Cerrito, Oakland, Lafayette, San Mateo,Danville, Antioch and Carson City, NV.

In the 6 years, there were 40 players from this league, who later reach the MLB.

The coaches later became pro scouts or College Coaches.

We learned from each other.

To determine a "line up" in this strong competition, I wanted my successful RBI hitters hitting #3, #4 #5 and #6, because over a period of time these position have runners on base. The on base % and BA determines who hits #7 and #8. #9 is my "double lead off" and I would rotate the lead off hitter to #9 every 4th game.

Since most coaches have a "take" sign, then use it to guide the #7 and #8 hitters.

PS: our Santa Rosa Legion team selected players from 5 High Schools in Sonoma County and all our games attracted the pro scouts and college coaches.

The pro scouts selected a "All Star" team from this league to travel to Japan and Korea to play the National Team of each Country.

Bob

I generally don't ask my hitters to change their approach.  IMO a hitter's approach is innate and personal-- dyed in the wool--and very closely linked to their confidence-level.

Often, our worst hitter bats 8th.  Verbally asking my worst hitter to change his approach risks getting into his head and making him worser.

As mentioned, the take sign allows us to guide their at-bats--without getting into their heads the way it can if we verbally ask them  to change their approach to fit the situation.

The above doesn't necessarily apply to a star-studded lineup where everybody is a very competent hitter (though of course some are better than others.)  But IMO it applies to the typical HS team, where there can be a large difference in competence between the better hitters and the worser ones.

I like an 8-hole guy that can hit a fastball, cuz he's going to see a lot of them. If he can grind a pitcher a little that is a nice plus because we all know a walk to an 8-hole can lead to the undoing of a pitcher and the frustration of a coach. The biggest reason he is in the 8 spot is that he isn't better than the 7 guys ahead of him... 9 hole might be able to run or slap it around a little.

I don't think i answered your question but I did ramble a little and practice doesn't start for 13 days so i gotta do something.

Originally Posted by trojan-skipper:

I like an 8-hole guy that can hit a fastball, cuz he's going to see a lot of them.

This is something I’ve wondered about for a looooong time, but have no way to verify because I don’t chart pitches, nor do I have access to anyone’s data who does so. My PERCEPTION isn’t that its true, but I’ve never concentrated on trying to count the pitch types, let alone break it down by batting position. If someone has such data, I’d really like to see it. If you only have it in paper form and can get me electronic copies, I see if I can get it input into a program to see what I can come up with.

If he can grind a pitcher a little that is a nice plus because we all know a walk to an 8-hole can lead to the undoing of a pitcher and the frustration of a coach.

Could you define “grind a pitcher” and “undoing”? If I could get good definitions of that, I should be able to use my data to check it out.

The biggest reason he is in the 8 spot is that he isn't better than the 7 guys ahead of him... 9 hole might be able to run or slap it around a little.

Now this one I know I can do something about if I can get a definition of what makes one hitter “better” than another. I’ve always tracked a lot of what what goes on by batting position and player, so I can pretty much say whether one player is “better” than another player.

In the attachment, there’s an example, but I can break things down in many other ways as well.

The 1^st 2 pages list all of the players who’ve batted on our team since 2007. Its sorted by OBP. The 3^rd page is all PAs for all players, but broken down by batting position. The final pages are broken down so the players in those batting position can be seen and evaluated.

Grind the pitcher:  make him work hard, take some pitches, if you can foul some stuff off and really battle and get a walk or an HBP... a 7 pitch AB feels like a win sometimes, even if he ends up making an out because he gave the rest of your team a great look at the guy.

Undoing:  For a lot of pitchers, walking the 8 hole is like missing an easy layup. it can really mess with your head, the coach might start chirping...

I didn't look at the attachments.. but usually I would guess my 8 hole guy is not going to have a very high OPS.  But if he does have a better one than my 5 hole, say, lets remember, my 5 hole is not getting the same pitches that the 8th guy is... plus, small sample...  but as a rule, my 8th hitter is not as good as the first 7... if my numbers or your numbers show that to be wrong, maybe we better re-work our lineup.

13 days and I'm hitting fungos and throwing BP

Stats - at a glance, the info you provided shows historically your 7/8 hitters have the ability to hit, but not as well as others (1-6 &9) and they also historically have the lowest OPS of all others listed. I agree with whoever is writing your lineups since 2007.

bballdad2016,

I sure wish I could say I had something to do with it, but all I do is write down what happens and show it.

Since you obviously looked at the attachment, have you seen the numbers in that kind of format before? I.e. broken down by BPOS? I’ve never seen HS data presented that way, but I keep lookin’.

Grind the pitcher:  make him work hard, take some pitches, if you can foul some stuff off and really battle and get a walk or an HBP... a 7 pitch AB feels like a win sometimes, even if he ends up making an out because he gave the rest of your team a great look at the guy.

That’s pretty much what I thought you meant, but when I’m gonna try to show something, I like to be sure what it is I want to show. See the grind1.pdf attachment below.

Undoing:  For a lot of pitchers, walking the 8 hole is like missing an easy layup. it can really mess with your head, the coach might start chirping...

While I agree, it really gets under my skin when I hear anyone “chirping” for that. Its really an ignorant thing to do, because it assumes the pitcher didn’t care or wasn’t trying very hard.

I didn't look at the attachments.. but usually I would guess my 8 hole guy is not going to have a very high OPS.  But if he does have a better one than my 5 hole, say, lets remember, my 5 hole is not getting the same pitches that the 8th guy is... plus, small sample...  but as a rule, my 8th hitter is not as good as the first 7... if my numbers or your numbers show that to be wrong, maybe we better re-work our lineup.

Well, all I can say is, you’d better not look at my numbers then because while our last 3 aren’t as good as our 1^st 3, they certainly ain’t bad. Depending on the mix of the players, those last 3 can vary a great deal. That 1^st attachment was combined 2007-2012. This one is 2012 alone, and that team won a very tough league championship. See the runprod5.pdf attachment.

You didn't specify what level.  There is a difference in how you would handle a 9-inning college or pro game vs. a 7-inning HS game.  Assuming typical HS game...

I don't like the idea of taking pitches to build pitch count and/or hope for a BB.  You are taking a relatively weak hitter and lowering his chances even more by risking putting him behind in the count before he is even allowed to swing.  I'd rather build that hitter's confidence and encourage him to be aggressive and attack fastball strikes which, as someone else mentioned, he should get lots of.  If P is really struggling with control, different story.  If you have a deep hitting lineup, that may change things as well.  Then you may be able to put a grinder/battler in that 7,8 spot.

Someone mentioned they put worst hitter in 8 hole.  That's fine for longer games but in the short HS game, I hate to have the game end with a weaker 8 hole hitter making the last out and a better 9 hitter left on deck.  The lineup just doesn't turn over enough in seven innings.  In fact, depending on the makeup of the team, I'm not opposed to canning the traditional speedy leadoff/contact #2/best hitter #3/power #4 strategy and just going best hitter first, next best second, etc., etc.

I can't get the attachments to open at home... I will look at them tomorrow from school computer.

Thanks for the info stats

I got em open, interesting stuff. 1 other note with re-entry a lot of times those 7-8-9 guys can be pinch hit for...

Totally agree with ya Cabbage on the short game theory.

BTW, a neighboring HS uses the opposite approach with the bottom part of the line-up, often not allowing kids to swing until they have two strikes.  The program is usually successful with wins and losses but many of the players don't enjoy the team experience.

On the other side of the coin, there are kids who pride themselves in working the count and maximizing on-base percentage, whether BB, HBP or a hit.  Different players flourish with different types of approaches.  Find out what that is for each player and let them run with it until adjustments are necessary.

So, 2bag, what is the reason for your question anyway?

t-s,

You touched on something that’s more often than not glossed over in HS and below discussions. Combined with only 7 innings, re-entry allows a lot of things to happen that aren’t present in the game above that level. Speed-up rules like running for the pitcher or catcher also have an effect on the game as well.

Originally Posted by cabbagedad:

…BTW, a neighboring HS uses the opposite approach with the bottom part of the line-up, often not allowing kids to swing until they have two strikes. …

I hear that somewhat often, but have found with closer inspection that it doesn’t happen nearly to the degree implied.

Stats - I did take a look at it and it is impressive.  I have never seen anything like that for HS teams.  Nice work. 

Stats,

I like the batting avg.(etc.) by position stats that you posted.

Definitely food for thought.

thanks.

I suppose that could be true but not the case here... I have coached boys from this program in travel, am friends with a few of the coaches and coach directly against the V team from time to time.  My statement is based on first hand info on many levels.

Hi Coach;

In my recent post I mentioned the word "creative" for coaches.

Because the majority of coaches pitch a hitter according to his position in the "line-up.

To change the "norm", a few times I placed my hitters 1-2-3; 1-2-3; 1-2-3.

My lead off style hitters- hit 1st, 4th and 7th.

My RF field hitters hit - 2nd, 5th and 8th.

My strong RBI hitters- hit 3rd, 6th and 9th.

Who received the "fast ball"?

What do you think? The game is "fun".

Bob

I agree with Cabbage. 

The 7/8 hitter is in that spot because he's either struggling, or because he's just not as good as the top of the line up. His head is already FULL of thoughts about the scrappy Sophomore challenging him for his spot, his Dad and hitting coach's concerns about what's going on with his swing, his last at-bat, the impact that the square-root-of-the-phase-of-the-moon might be having on his swing...

Why in the world would you try to get him to "grind out at-bats" and work deep into the count if he doesn't naturally do that?  He's going to end up staring at an inch-off-the-plate outside wasted pitch, getting a raw-deal call from an ump who has no sympathy for a low-order looker, and walking back to the bench thinking about his .200 BA.  Meanwhile, you're one more out closer to the end of the 3rd inning with the #5 hitter standing on second, getting more frustrated with his teammate for not doing something with his awesome double.

IMO, you let those two hitters take their most comfortable approach at the plate, and take what you can get out of them.   Send in the tricky stuff to the 9,1,& 2 guys.

For those of you who like to see things by batting position, here’s some others I put int the stats package.

Cabbage,

I never doubted it happens. All I was saying was, more often than not things like that get exaggerated in the translation. But it does go to show that there are many many different ways to both succeed and fail. Its areal shame when whatever philosophy is followed doesn’t make the players and their enjoyment of the experience the 1^st priority. After all , its their game, not the coach’s.

Consultant,

Do you chart pitches? I’d really love to see any proof of how pitches are thrown in relation to batting order.

wraggArm,

Do you really believe umpires are not only aware of what batting position is up, but that they’d consciously treat them any differently than any other batting position? Here’s why I ask. I’ve been an SK for a pretty substantial number of years now, and while I’m generally aware of what BPOS our guys are in, unless there’s some reason to have known it earlier, I have to look at the book to see the BPOS of the other team’s batters. So, its hard for me to believe an umpire who typically isn’t very familiar with all the players on both teams, knows who’s up and what BPOS they occupy.

"getting a raw-deal call from an ump who has no sympathy for a low-order looker"

Stats,

This is a rock solid fact in HS and below.

If umps have the impression--for whatever reason--that you're a looker, the zone gets bigger.

The reasons usually include one or more of the following: player is small and/or unmuscular; batting low in order; body language in the batter's box and/or when they take a pitch.

I coach my hitters accordingly.

You don't need stats to justify common sense.  A good catcher will know the batting order as well as prior performance in the game and will call for pitches in accordance with both those factors.  An 8 hitter in HS or below will get better pitches to swing at because he is less likely to hit them.

And therefore to the point of the OP, these hitters should be more aggressive in getting their bats out there and making contact rather than hope for a walk.

freddy77,

I’m sorry, but your “rock solid fact” hasn’t been apparent to me, and when I’ve asked similar questions on official’s boards I’ve been almost universally criticized as not understanding how umpires call games. It may happen, but I don’t believe it happens all the time or even most of the time. What you saying in effect is, umpires make a conscious decision how they’re going to call pitches based on a batters appearance and that’s just not something I’ve personally seen.

Originally Posted by RedSoxFan21:

You don't need stats to justify common sense. 

Oh no? I’ve proved many a time that what many people take as “common sense” just ain’t true. That’s why I like to look and see what the truth of the matter is.

A good catcher will know the batting order as well as prior performance in the game and will call for pitches in accordance with both those factors. 

I agree that a good catch will do exactly as you say. Our HS program doesn’t allow catchers to call more than at most a dozen pitches in any game I’ve ever scored, and I’ve scored every game since 2007.

An 8 hitter in HS or below will get better pitches to swing at because he is less likely to hit them.

That sounds logical, but what’s the truth? I’m not saying it isn’t so, but I’d like to see if it is true by using facts. That’s why I asked if you had any proof of what you say. Some of the biggest problems with trying to use facts are, each and every pitch called should charted, as well as where every pitch was actually thrown, not to forget the result of the pitch, put in play or not.

A coach like ours would love a coach who called pitches more over the plate for his low lineup hitters because our hitters are aggressive for the most part.

Umpires are human. 

If they don't respect a batter, the marginal calls go against him.

Same thing if they don't respect a pitcher, though somewhat less because strikes and outs get the umpire home for dinner sooner.

"When in doubt, call him out."

Come on, Stats, this is basic stuff. 

freddy77,

I know that’s the accepted dogma at the ML level, but is it really what happens at all levels? Heck, we seldom see an umpire more than once a season, and there are literally hundreds of teams those umpires service. So what happens is quite different than in MLB where all the players are more or less celebrities, and there are only 30 teams with a small group of umpires servicing them. In that situation there’s much more of a personal interaction, but in a lot of cases of HSB, umpires haven’t got a clue who the players are, other than maybe the biggest stars.

So, assuming what you say does happen, how much does it really happen? I believe it happens a lot more infrequently than you’d believe.

Then we agree to disagree, because I think it happens multiple times per game in HS level baseball (I don't know about MLB, nor do I care.)

I coach accordingly.  For instance, I instruct my players that when they're taking a pitch,  they're more likely to get the borderline call if they take it aggressively rather than passively.  It's basic baseball:  The borderline pitch is called a "ball" more often when the ump senses that the batter is hitterish--irregardless of whether the umpire has a clue who the player is. 

Originally Posted by freddy77:

Then we agree to disagree, because I think it happens multiple times per game in HS level baseball (I don't know about MLB, nor do I care.)

I coach accordingly.  For instance, I instruct my players that when they're taking a pitch,  they're more likely to get the borderline call if they take it aggressively rather than passively.  It's basic baseball:  The borderline pitch is called a "ball" more often when the ump senses that the batter is hitterish--irregardless of whether the umpire has a clue who the player is.

Here’s a suggestion. Go to just about any forum where officials make up the majority of posters, and see how they feel about it. I’m not an umpire and can only go by what I see, and I don’t see umpires predetermining how they’re going to call pitches based on the player at the plate or pitcher on the mound. I’m sure it happens, but not to any degree that I would coach players because of it.

I see borderline pitches called for the pitchers when they’ve shown they have decent command, but haven’t noticed them called differently because of a batter, other than the vertical zone is changed because of a player’s height and stance.

Of course you’re welcome to your opinion, but I venture the guess that your vision of how pitches get called is very different from what’s actually taking place.

Stats,

The guys who post on umpire boards are the college professors of umpiring.

Of course they're going to say that umpires are robotically objective.

I live in the real world. I'm blue collar.  I hang with umpires and cops (same mentality).

Two 18 yr-olds are pulled over for rolling through a stop sign. A borderline call.   The super-respectful one gets a verbal warning.  The sullen-looking one gets a ticket.  It's not "predetermined".  It's about "likability factor", and it's about respect, which flows both ways. It's the same on a HS ballfield.  Let's keep it real.