9 year old/2 Questions

I think that's definitely too many innings for a 9 year old to pitch. To me, there is nothing wrong with him throwing as much as he wants (including working in some long toss). But this is too much mound time. The coach basically wants him to pitch a minimum of 9 innings and maximum of 11 innings in six days. I'm not sure exactly where the cutoff point should be, but I think that's too much.

I think this way of coaching leads to a couple of things...I think it burns some kids out on pitching (even if it doesn't hurt them physically). Also, I think it robs other kids of the opportunity to pitch. In my opinion, at that age the coach should be offering everyone the same pitching instruction and reps in practice, and everyone that looks remotely competent on the mound should get some chance to pitch in games. I would rather develop a few more pitchers than win a 9U championship. That's just my opinion.

WAY too much!! First of all cocdawg, cudos to you for having the coach pull him. More parents should do this. Once the pitcher starts to fatigue is when the greatest chance for injury occurs. My belief is that a parent who works with their kid knows before anyone else and should make that call. Good for you for standing up to both the coach and your son.

Secondly, I would not let him pitch on Monday after pitching on Saturday. Thursday should be OK. I would make sure he has between 4 and 5 days rest between outings, especially when he pitches to fatigue. He needs time for his body to recuperate. This early in the year, you really need to be watching what he does. Not even HS kids will go that quickly after an outing.

Thirdly, I would have him take off the day after pitching, but throw flat ground as much as you like. Long toss distances will be much shorter for a 9 yr. old than a 16 yr. old, but he should be able to throw everyday. However, just like on the mound, monitor how he is doing. Go out to where he is comfortable throwing on a line and when he starts struggling, start to come back in. JMHO.

Something you guys could do that my son and I did growing up and was a lot of fun, is make a game out of it. We would get probably 90-100 feet from each other and play a game where if one of us had to move more than one foot to reach the ball, it was a point for the other person. And I don't mean literally one foot, I mean one foot is the plant foot and you can move one foot to reach the ball. After a while, we counted how many throws each of us could make without having to move a foot and see who could go the longest without making the other person move. I think one time we went to 150 throws without losing and we just called it a tie. I think this is one of the reasons his control is so good now. Just an idea.

Anyway, to summarize. I would not let him pitch on Monday. Even if you have to tell the coach he is still sore. Thursday is good. Go ahead and throw as much as you want (not pitch), just keep an eye on him and make sure he is not killing himself. If the coach wants him to pitch that often, he must be good. You don't want to over do it have him hurt before it gets to where things count ie. high school.

Good luck to you guys. Keep up the good work of staying in charge of your son!!

Just thought I would give you the anti-long-toss view.

What are you trying to accomplish with long-toss? Certainly not accuracy/location (which should be your #1 priority). Is it velocity (why)? The mechanics are not even close to being the same as on the mound.

Why not throw from a mound every day (or every other day), say 30-40 pitches at 80-90% effort? Of course, don't throw on the same day as pitching in a game, or the day after pitching over 50 or so pitches, and don't throw if you're sore.

You can build a "mound" for your back yard with just a wheelbarrow load of dirt.

BTW, throwing 2-3 times a week for 2-3 innings each is normal based on my experience. Most 10U rec teams have only 2 real pitchers - allstar teams will have 4-6. I probably would not have pitched any kid for 4 innings on the 1st day out.

quote:

Originally posted by SultanofSwat:

Just thought I would give you the anti-long-toss view.

What are you trying to accomplish with long-toss? Certainly not accuracy/location (which should be your #1 priority). Is it velocity (why)? The mechanics are not even close to being the same as on the mound.

Arm strength.

quote:

Originally posted by SultanofSwat:

Why not throw from a mound every day (or every other day), say 30-40 pitches at 80-90% effort? Of course, don't throw on the same day as pitching in a game, or the day after pitching over 50 or so pitches, and don't throw if you're sore.

You can build a "mound" for your back yard with just a wheelbarrow load of dirt.

It is generally known that throwing from a mound puts more stress on your arm than from flat ground. Speifically the decelerator muscles. Throwing 80-90% max effort is a lot. A starting pitcher will probably only throw 90-95% of max effort in order to last longer. Might as well be pitching in a game.

quote:

Originally posted by SultanofSwat:

BTW, throwing 2-3 times a week for 2-3 innings each is normal based on my experience. Most 10U rec teams have only 2 real pitchers - allstar teams will have 4-6. I probably would not have pitched any kid for 4 innings on the 1st day out.

Just because it is normal does not mean it is good. That is part of why there are so many arm problems with younger pitchers now a days. Take your days of rest cocdawg. 2-3 times per week on the bump in a game is too much.

When I was 9 I worried about waving to my mom in the stands when I played the field and what kind of ice cream I'd be eating after the game. I didn't start thinking about pitching until I was 11. I am now pitching in college.

Let the kid play the game and have fun

quote:

Originally posted by SultanofSwat:
Just thought I would give you the anti-long-toss view.

What are you trying to accomplish with long-toss? Certainly not accuracy/location (which should be your #1 priority). Is it velocity (why)? The mechanics are not even close to being the same as on the mound.

Why not throw from a mound every day (or every other day), say 30-40 pitches at 80-90% effort?

Well, as you know, am a huge PRO long toss guy. But certainly NOT for a 9 year old. Wait until he's 11-12, that's when Bum, Jr. started. As for throwing off a mound every other day.. at 9 years old??? Are you serious??? 9-y.o.s don't have the repeatable, correct mechanics which would help them. In fact, it would ruin their arms by reinforcing bad habits. IMHO at 9 y.o. they should be playing baseball for fun!

When the time comes.. long-toss builds a repeatable arm slot, arm speed, and promotes arm health. It is pure NONSENSE to suggest it detracts from accuracy, location and velocity. Just the opposite!

BTW, I actually don't think most 9 year olds have the the velocity which would come close to hurting their arms. Too much of anything is not good, of course, but dad.. I'd be more concerned about overuse once he gets in the 11-12 age range.

What could be more fun for a 9yo than hitting dad in the shin (or worse), or pretending to strike out Jeter in the 9th inning of the World Series, from a "mound" in the back yard?

quote:

Originally posted by SultanofSwat:
What could be more fun for a 9yo than hitting dad in the shin (or worse), or pretending to strike out Jeter in the 9th inning of the World Series, from a "mound" in the back yard?

Nothing - as long as he's doing it in a responsible way so he doesn't hurt his arm so he can be healthy enough to face Jeter or someone in the World Series years from now.

I'm sure every kid (and parent) fantasizes about that!!

Great question! One that should be asked more often. I think Little League organizations need to go by pitch count not innnings pitched. In Little League there are many cases where pitchers can throw 50 pitches in one inning due to many things including errors etc. 75 pitches a week is plenty for a pitcher this age.
A throwing regimen is also important. On a 5 day rotation, which doesn't exist in Little League but should give you an idea, a pitcher shouldn't throw much the day after he pitches or the day before he pitches. They need rest (depending on the pitcher)
here is an example you could follow: hopefully you will find it useful.
Day 1 Pitch
Day 2 Flat Ground Throwing / Take a day off
Days 3&4 Throw off a mound (30 pitches 70% of max)
Day 5 Flat Ground Throwing / Take a day off
Day 6 Pitch
You don't want to baby your arm, in many cases kids won't throw enough and don't do enough skill work to improve their mechanics. I would recommend not allowing any student to throw just to throw. they should throw with a purpose; always working on mechanics, location etc.
Good luck

OK, I have a 9 year son who pitches, and I am his coach. We had our first tournament last weekend andf first game last night. He pitched 3 1/3 innings over the weekend and 3 innings last night. TOO MANY PITCHES!!!
The thing about 9/10 yr olds is that there are sooo many strike-outs. In his 6 1/3 innings only 1 out came from something other than a K. That is 57 pitches if you don't throw any balls. Last night he went 3 innings and walked a few batters and gave up 1 hit...but was in constant 2 and 2 or 3 and 2 counts...add some foul balls in there and he threw 80 pitches...I had no idea until after the game and was EXTREMELY mad at myself for letting him go that long. He WILL NOT throw again for at least a week.
Long toss - I love long toss and he likes long toss. It build velocity, he loves catching the long toss from me and at this age it doesnt take much...just 5 minutes or so.
Side Note - most leagues have a pitch rule or inning rule (ours is 6 innings a week). Your coach will most likely go well over that threshhold if he pitches that much...putting any win at risk to being challenged if he overused a pitcher to get the win.

Cocdawg,

quote:

“9 year old son pitched 4 innings opening day (Sat.)”

Have you determined his Biological age? He could biologically 8 or 10.
This should be a huge consideration on your part here to get it figured out for now and future training considerations.

quote:

“before I asked the head coach to pull him”

This should be set in advance dictated by the parents with no exceptions!
If the coach cannot stick to this you need to stop him from pitching with this coach, what is going to happen if you cannot be there?

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I could tell he was loosing "it"

This means his mechanics were inflaming and injuring him with every ballistic attempt.
What people read as fatigue is really accumulative injurious effect.

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“let some other parent see their son pitch”

Yes, spread the injurious effect with many so that they all have a chance to go to the next level, preferably you would use 3 pitchers a game.

quote:

Coach has said he wants to open with him for 2-3 innings today and then use him 3-4 on Thursday.

Coach needs to understand the effects of ballistic injurious activity on developing bone.
Show him an X-ray of your Childs epicondile at the end of his humerus, he will notice it does not even show up with any parts hardened yet.

quote:

“How much is too much for this age?’

Competitive ballistic adrenalin effort is bone deforming with any mechanic at this biological age and injurious at many aspects with your particular traditional mechanical Performance. Any amount is injurious but if you keep it to fewer than 40 pitches once a week for only the spring months he will be much better off than doing much more like now.

quote:

“Son has been throwing 2-3 X's a week since Dec.”

This means he is in very good shape and can destroy himself even faster with his injurious mechanics.

quote:

Do you use some kind of throwing program at this age?

Yes, he needs a motor skill program first that will teach him how to manipulate pronated drives and releases of 4 pitches and produce early humeral rotations from as far back as he can by also learning to stay as straight to the field driveline as his leg lift will allow.

quote:

“ My thoughts is let him be a kid and enjoy but there's a college assistant coach who has a kid on my son's team and says he likes his mechanics and says I should start long toss program with him.”

All College, High school and pro coaches like the injurious traditional mechanics but things are changing faster now.
This College coach does not understand what is going on here with a developing elbow by bringing in training elements that his biologically mature athletes can perform with their fully fused elbows to capture the ballistic portion of their interval training program.
Children do not need this training and any gains that athletes get from it if discontinued (detrain) for more than 2 days all goes out the door anyways.
Long toss does not produce functional strength, you can not gain muscle mass from a 5.5 oz. object nor advancement in physiological response but it does produce a faster neural response.
To much stress at this biological age.

quote:

“Son has seen our local college team and high school team long toss and has begged me to let him but I haven't.”

Good for you, you are the boss! No one else and if you can’t do it? Let your wife take over! I have found out that most men are incapable of protecting their boys with regards to this issue.
Wait until he is biologically 16 for this activity it will not make any difference other than less wear. If he wants to throw it far a few times go ahead and have some fun a few times after a vigorous warm up but do not train this way.

Different kids can throw the same count of pitches and have drastically different effects with soreness. When my son was 10 he played on a team where they threw him 6 innings during the week and then on a different team on the weekends where they threw him another 5-7 innings. He basically threw an average of 12 innings per week with an average of 12-15 pitches per inning. Another kid on the same weekday team only threw 4 innings per week on average and constantly was in elbow pain. He was always asking my son if his arm ever hurt like his.

The reason they made pitch count rules for little league is to protect the worst of the worst mechanical throwers. At that age- 9-10, most kids haven't developed good enough mechanics for throwing with their body.

Every kid is different. Some can pitch a lot with little to no pain while others can't throw at all without some pain.

Rather than using inning or pitch counts, use the fatigue and pain factor to gauge how much he should throw. For some, 2-3 innings per week is too much while for others that number could be more than triple than that. It really all comes down to mechanics and how much effort they are throwing with. Some pitch on "cruise control" (easy) while others pitch all out every pitch.

Wow, some really interesting thoughts here.

First off, the idea that you can tell a 9-year-old's "biological age" and that some kids are bred to handle more than others is a bunch of bunk made up to excuse overuse of a kid. You can't look inside that kid and see what's going on with his growth plates or soft tissue. Sure, some of us are probably genetically predisposed to be more durable than others, but if you think you can tell which are which by looking at them, you are kidding yourself. The only appropriate way to approach this is to be cautious. And, as the parent here suggests, to recognize that it's only 9-year-old rec ball and why not let someone else pitch some, too.

Second, the notion that there is no such thing as fatigue, only bad mechanics, is also bunk.

You don't mention what the boy's pitch count was, but to throw someone that young into a 4th inning at an age when pitch counts typically run 20+/inning, especially his first outing of the spring, was irresponsible in and of itself. To ask him to come back with only one day off was a second offense. To then suggest he would throw again in only three days makes three.

Someone needs to pull that coach aside and get him set straight before one of his supposed biological wonders gets hurt.

First off, having a kid throw off the mound every day is absolutely absurd. This is terrible advice to give someone, especially a 9 year old. Now my personal opinion, is with your son being 9, when you do have him on the mound, have him throwing from the stretch. Why? There are fewer movable parts, which in turn can help him develop sound, repeatable mechanics. When a child is young, and does start to fatigue, there body reverts back to old, bad habits thus in turn possibly leading to injury.

Now your son is only 9 so I would not focus on velocity with him, rather focus on mechanics, and building arm strength. The velocity will come in time, but with bad mechanics, and lack of arm strength, the velocity will not come, and whatever velocity he does have can be disrupted by poor mechanics.

Have him work flat ground, spotting drills, etc..

Now when you are playing catch with him, do not teach him to like so many coaches say, "Hit me in the chest". As a pitcher, you are never taught to throw the ball on a flat plane, and always want to throw on a downward angle.

So I would emphasize:

Mechanics
Arm Strength
Locating
Downward Plane

You do not have to get to technical with him at such a young age.

Also teach him about arm care. Rest/Recovery. Heating/Icing etc..

quote:

Originally posted by Yardbird:
Wait until he is biologically 16 for this activity it will not make any difference other than less wear. If he wants to throw it far a few times go ahead and have some fun a few times after a vigorous warm up but do not train this way.

This is your comment about long-toss. Bum, Jr. began seriously long-tossing at about 12-13. What it did was create a faster arm, a consistent arm slot, and promote arm health. He has never had arm issues. He is now hitting low-90's, cruising near 90, and is a sub-6ft LHP.

Credit long-toss. But NOT at age 9. I will add this.. pitching at age 9 may HARM a kid's chances at an older age (not always) but it will never HURT a kid's chances. Bum, Jr. never pitched until he was 12.

quote:

Originally posted by Bum:
Bum, Jr. began seriously long-tossing at about 12-13. What it did was create a faster arm, a consistent arm slot, and promote arm health. He has never had arm issues. He is now hitting low-90's, cruising near 90, and is a sub-6ft LHP.

Credit long-toss.

If this is true, then players that did not use long toss, could not have these attributes. 4 players on LittleSultan's travel team never used long toss, never had any serious injuries, and they throw low 80s at 15 - how can this be possible?

Credit lack of overuse. They usually pitched 3 innings per game (max 4).

Long toss is just a tool. Like other tools you use to help you train and improve your skills.

Does it work? I feel that it does.

Is it the only way (tool) to help increase velocity? No.

Is it the only thing that promotes arm health? No.

So if you look at it that way, just another tool in the training tool box, then I think you have your answer.

My .02

My son started pitching when he was 9 and is now 14. I am of the belief that it doesn't matter if they start pitching at 9 or 12 or even 16 as long as you always do the right things to promote a strong and healthy body and arm for throwing. I am also of the belief that it is a personal preference if one chooses to long toss or not. My son has never really done long toss and when compared with other kids who have, I see no difference in velocity or control.

Bum

quote:

“This is your comment about long-toss”

Yes, your ballistic portion of an interval training program especially if is performed
centrifugally (like a leg lifted traditional pitcher-Jaeger pogo hop or from the mound) will be very injurious to your elbows Ligament, tendon, muscle and bone before it has a chance to mature and fuse, biologically 16 and below.
If you long toss in the correct crowstep motion you remove some of the ligament, tendon and muscle injuries because you transition earlier but still attain bone deformation. Yet this same non-injurious motion is never brought to the mound!
I suspect Bum Jr. performed long toss correctly and only had bone deformative stress?
I’m not against proper long toss for your ballistic requirement! But believe pitchers should do it off the mound (catcher not necessary) to replicate and train sport specifically.
This type of training of attaining your fast twitch recruitment below biological age 16 is worthless because if you do not maintain the regimen the benefits soon disappear (atrophy, detrain) and will have no effect on his future velocity. Adults (Biologically 19 yo males) should perform their ballistic portion every day of the year along with their motor skill and sport specific interval-training regimen.
Long toss does not stimulate a physiological response to build muscle mass but does build Neural response allowing you to throw quicker = more velocity.

quote:

“Bum, Jr. began seriously long-tossing at about 12-13”

Were you aware of his exact biological age at the time and subsequently by having x-rays from both arms for comparison? I have and (checked it from an injury at 45, I’m 56 now) and started pitching at 8 chronological years old and my Humerus on my pitching arm is ¾ of an inch shorter than my glove arm and my range of motion is shortened by 12 degrees in flexion and extension of my elbow! I never injured myself pitching, yet I am deformed!

quote:

“What it did was create a faster arm, a consistent arm slot, and promote arm health”

What you did was correct but premature in appropriate ballistic training timeline.
Better to start aggressive training after biologically 16 yo when all the elbow growth centers have fused!

quote:

“He is now hitting low-90's, cruising near 90, and is a sub-6ft LHP.”

He is a genetically gifted fast twitcher and would have attained this speed even if he had started long toss at 19 biological years old!!
Size has nothing what so ever to do with velocity, this is an anecdotal, non-scientific baseball establishment yard myth and needs to be eliminated from their thinking!
The fastest pitcher that ever lived (Steve Dalkowski) stood 5’ 7 “ tall and hucked it up their at 106 MPH according to reports from people like Ted Williams.
I’m not too fond of anybody using height as an excuse or claim of performance or projectability with pitching fast, especially you Bum! I’m 6’5” tall and never got above 85 mph’s no matter what I did and I tried everything!

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”Credit long-toss”

Credit you and or his mother and your heredity; this is the only difference in well-trained pitchers.

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“pitching at age 9 may HARM a kid's chances at an older age (not always) but it will never HURT a kid's chances”

It will always perturb growth potential, this is a fact and there are many more injurious possibilities with this pre 16 BYO age group and gets worse the younger they are!
To me this hurts many of their future chances.

quote:

quote:
“pitching at age 9 may HARM a kid's chances at an older age (not always) but it will never HURT a kid's chances”

It will not hurt a kids chances unless they are not being monitored closely by there coaches. More and more these days you see younger kids getting arm surgery, because they are standing in the outfield spinning off curveballs without proper training causing damage to their arms at a young age. My belief, can you throw to much no. Can you pitch to much, Yes.

On the first question, I think you have to monitor both total and per-inning pitching volume in youth ptichers. The movement toward pitch counts in youth baseball is a positive one. But like the limitations with old "innings-pitched" guidelines and limitations, total pitches per appearance only tells a portion of the story. A 50-pitch appearance spread over five innings is not the same as a 10-pitch inning followed by a 40-pitch inning. The latter will have different implications for fatigue and recovery, and by relation, cumulative arm health.

I watch our 11 and 12 year olds very closely when they start reaching 15+ pitches in an inning and will pull a kid if he has a long inning, regardless of the total pitch count goal we set for him that day. I haven't allowed one of our boys to throw more than 22 pitches in an inning yet this year.

As for long throwing, I'm a proponent, but we only started our kids this year when the youngest of them hit 11. And we only throw up to 110-120 feet.

I understand the arguments of the no-long-toss crowd, but I disagree with the idea that long throwing doesn't help with location. We have our boys strive to throw shoulder to shoulder (ie, side to side at their partner's shoulders). I find that if an 11 year old kid can go shoulder to shoulder at 100 feet, he'll be far more comfortable with- and capable of going inside/outside from 48 or 54 feet. While I've hardly applied anything approaching an experimental design to bear the idea out, our anecdotal experience is that this practice is really helping kids discern a feel for location while developing a bit of arm speed and strength.

Gingerbreadman,

quote:

“use the fatigue and pain factor to gauge how much he should throw”

Try eliminating that pain factor and you will find out there is little fatigue factor.

Midlodad,

quote:

“the idea that you can tell a 9-year-old's "biological age" “

This is very easy to do, just tale x-rays of both sides shoulder to mid forearm, posterior and anterior once a year on his chronological birthday to determine the Biological age of the athlete. This is very important to know if you want to plan out the best strategy for training progression. For example if you have a 17 year old chronologically and you found out he was a biologically advanced maturer by 2 years you can then decide to train him like an adult, every day. There are hundreds of these types of scenarios to consider that will help in making decisions with youth pitchers.

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“some kids are bred to handle more than others”

You have made an argument where none exists; this has nothing to do with durability to withstand the stress of an already known injurious mechanic.

quote:

“made up to excuse overuse of a kid.”

You have this backwards! It was said to put a stop to the over use of all youth pitchers
because of bone deformation that occurs with even non injurious to other body parts type mechanics. They are all susceptible to this growth disturbance.

quote:

“You can't look inside that kid and see what's going on with his growth plates or soft tissue”

Actually this is done every day to determine medical procedure decisions.
You can actually see when the bone at the end of the humerus that does not show up in an x-ray with a biologically aged 9 yo’s then show up as a dime sized white hard spot at biologically aged 10 yo’s then a nickel sized white hard spot at biologically aged 11 yo’s then a quarter sized white hardened spot at biologically aged 12 yo’s then the whole of the Epicondile (the distal end of the Humerus) turns into hardened bone at biological aged 13 yo’s. It is at this point when it is safe to proceed with beginning appropriate training.
Now we can go into the beneficial growth plate info if you wish but I believe there is a better source by studying Dr.Marshalls info.

quote:

“Sure, some of us are probably genetically predisposed to be more durable than others,”

Again this is not the argument, all tissues with everybody have the same properties

quote:

” the notion that there is no such thing as fatigue, only bad mechanics, is also bunk.”

No such notion was offered, capacity in humans is very high even when the work to rest interval is short like a couple of seconds but they get a 30 second rest between each pitch making fatigue as debilitating is way off.
This along with pitch counts (in adults) gives the believers in their particular type of centrifugal mechanics an excuse for their inability to continue other than the real culprit mechanics.

quote:

”Someone needs to pull that coach aside and get him set straight before one of his supposed biological wonders gets hurt.”

Right on, traditional centripetal mechanics has hurt 100’s of thousands all ready.
If people are going to keep teaching these destructive mechanics then at least spread the workload to minimize misery.

NIC15,

quote:

“More and more these days you see younger kids getting arm surgery”

The increase is only due to the advent of year round baseball!
Club ball youth pitchers decrease their chances of being able to pitch or play in the future at later levels, which is ironically why they are pitching year round. The field players get all the benefits of this extra 8 months of playing. The biggest increase has been in an the lowering of the age in which pitchers produce UCL injuries that were not prevalent in pre 16 byo 20 years ago.

quote:

“because they are standing in the outfield spinning off curveballs without proper training”

What proper training? This only exists under certain conditions and special training!
Any supinated curve crashes your bones together ballistically and all curves thrown outside (forearm outside of elbow thumb up) of vertical are supinated.
There are only 2 pronated curves that I know of and both are thrown inside (forearm inside of elbow thumb down) of vertical and I’ve never seen any traditional pitcher throw one of these.

Which one do you teach, throw or know?

quote:

“causing damage to their arms at a young age”

This mechanic destroys all bone at any bodies age even matured hardened bone that after the affliction then builds back deposit and your bone gets larger and larger until you cannot flex or extent your arm well anymore.

quote:

“When a child is young, and does start to fatigue, there body reverts back to old, bad habits thus in turn possibly leading to injury”

How can an already injurious mechanic lead you into an injurious mechanic?

Tres_arboles,

quote:

“The movement toward pitch counts in youth baseball is a positive one”

Yes, even if they have it wrong! But they do not use the biological age difference calculation to determine correct counts making the studies that produced their recommendation scientifically worthless.
These kids are pitching competitively way too much!

quote:

A 50-pitch appearance spread over five innings is not the same as a 10-pitch inning followed by a 40-pitch inning.

Exactly! The kid who did not have to re-warm up 5 times with inadequate warm up time
(8 pitches) were at lower risk than the kids who warmed up inadequately then threw 10 pitches with more energy and stress from his injurious form of mechanics

quote:

“fatigue and recovery”

Lack of capacity not so much, injurious recovery many mucho’s.
Fatigue (lack of energy) if this is what you mean will give you much less stress with an already injurious mechanic! Fatigue is an excuse that people use to mask the real culprit of injurious accumulation from known injurious mechanics.

quote:

”As for long throwing, I'm a proponent”

Are you one of the high parabolic arc practitioners?

quote:

“I disagree with the idea that long throwing doesn't help with location”

The problem is you do not use the same Humeral timing when you long toss as when you use the traditional leg lift pitching motion making this targeting specific for position players but not specific for pitchers.
While long toss gives you some great (but not distance specific) targeting factors in the horizontal adjustment it give you very bad vertical learning! Now add in long distance throwing atmospheric conditions and ball axis presentation air grab where you might do well to have a spotter and a Gilly suit on to perform great parabolic targeting. Not specific by far, NPI.

quote:

“I understand the arguments of the no-long-toss crowd”

Have you considered these the main athletic training tenet ”sport specific “ arguments?

Yard Bird you seem to have all of the answers for everyones post. I am curious to know what Tom House Books did you pick up. Or are you reading Dick Mills. I am guessing with all of the tecnical talk it is a Tom House book.

I will provide you some answers to your questions.

Quote: The increase is only due to the advent of year round baseball!

So you mean to tell me that California, AZ, TX, and Florida are the only states that are having these issues with arms?

Quote: What proper training? This only exists under certain conditions and special training!

I should have stated it more clearly, proper monitoring in their overall throwing program. 9 Yr old kids should not be throwing curveballs.

What kind do I teach? I don't teach 9 year olds curveball, I do not teach kids a curveball until they are sophomores in High School. Of course I do not coach at the High School level I coach at the Professional Level so I have not really had to worry about this in a long time, although generally that is my rule.

Quote: How can an already injurious mechanic lead you into an injurious mechanic?

1st I am not sure what you are even saying there. My statement was that when kids start to fatigue, their body reverts back to old habits, ie. improper mechanics.


Last tidbit of advice for you:
The true wise man does not have all the answers, he poses the right question. We can be knowledgeable with other men's knowledge, but we can not be wise with other men's wisdom. Just something to think about.

Wow... Pretty deep stuf for a question about a 9 yr old. Yard Bird is all over it.

I don't know about, nor do I understand 1/2 of what he said, but as for the long toss question good or bad, all I know is my son has played long toss for as long as I can remember. He does it almost daily now as a HS Sr and the last time I looked over the shoulder of a scout at his radar gun, he was consistantly in the mid 90's. Did long toss help get him there? I don't know but I'm guessing it didn't hurt...

We always tried to limit the # of pitches per outing to around 5 per year (9 yr old = 45 pitches, 10 yr old = 50 pitches, etc.)... It worked, no arm issues.

yardbird do you realize that when you post in terminology that others can not understand it does not assist them? You may have a lot to offer on this site. Even though some will disagree no matter what you post because change is always met with resistance. Unless you can post in a manner that those that are reading can understand and relate to in some way, it is pointless.

Its akin to the doctor who walks in the emergency room and spouts off technical medical terminology for what is wrong with the patient. He may be absolutely right in his diagnosis but those that he is trying to get the information across to have no idea what the heck he is talking about. He feels fine with it because he has passed on the information. The only problem is the patient and those that care still have no idea what the heck is going on.

quote:

Originally posted by Yardbird:
I’m not too fond of anybody using height as an excuse or claim of performance or projectability with pitching fast, especially you Bum!

I agree with you! I was only pointing out the possibilities that exist if you work hard. Unfortunately, as hard as he has worked, he just hasn't had much of a chance (no doubt due to his size). All I know, put him against WOOD and he does great! Credit the fastball.