90 miles per hour

It really depends.

If you ask players or parents, it happens all the time, especially in their family or with pitchers they have faced without success.

If you ask scouts and college coaches, not nearly as often.

We probably have somewhere in the neighborhood of a dozen HS players in AZ who have done it for real, which means independently verified with a Stalker.

Aleebaba - I think the answer is more or less in your post itself.

quote:

...but once he hit the 90 mark the D1 schools and pro scouts began to flock.

That kinda tells you all you need to know. 90 is a somewhat magic number and just isn't very common across the broad spectrum of players.

At the PG WWBA World Championship in Jupiter there were 160 HS players at or above 90 mph.

In any given HS baseball "league" I'd say you could almost always count the number of players who pitch or throw 90 or better on one hand.

And it's one thing to touch 90 or above, it's another to be able to sustain that velocity and this is really what the scouts are looking for.

From what I've observed, it looks like a great majority of the HS pitchers throw from the low to mid 80's.

quote:

Originally posted by Truman:
And it's one thing to touch 90 or above, it's another to be able to sustain that velocity

So true. However to add to the discussion, i had the pleasure of watching a 17YO touch 88 and an 18YO "touch" 91 (for the fist time) two nights ago. It is rare, but pretty cool when you see it. Both (along with a few others) were in front of scouts.

Truman - I promise I'm not trying to pick on you...I just have a different take on this topic.

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In any given HS baseball "league" I'd say you could almost always count the number of players who pitch or throw 90 or better on one hand.

My younger son's HS league...considered by some to be one of the top 2 or 3 HS baseball leagues on the West Coast...last year I would say there were ZERO pitchers who regularly pitched in the 90s. There were 1-3 (most likely 1) who could occasionally touch 90.

The year before, a year in which my son's team was ranked #1 in the nation by a couple of publications...there was 1 regular pitcher in the whole league (who was on my son's team) who regularly got into the 90s. There was a SS who sometimes closed that would pitch in the low 90s. He was not a primary pitcher on his team.

quote:

From what I've observed, it looks like a great majority of the HS pitchers throw from the low to mid 80's.

I think, with all leagues thrown into the mix, the average would be closer to 80 than to 85.

quote:

O However to add to the discussion, i had the pleasure of watching a 17YO touch 88 and an 18YO "touch" 91 (for the fist time) two nights ago. It is rare, but pretty cool when you see it. Both (along with a few others) were in front of scouts.

I agree. Watching this 15 year old kid hit 90+ for the first time during a scrimmage at a big time D1 college, with the coaches present, was awesome. I can't wait to see what this kid will do when he is 17-18.

When you actually see a kid throw in the 90's on a consistent basis you know it. Touching 90 is one thing. Sitting 92-94 (or greater) smooth and with no apparent effort, is a completely different feeling.

I can't belive this discussion. Holy cr a p when you are hitting 90 in HS, (consistent or touching or whatever) the phone is going to ring. Hang on baby the ride is going to be fine!

quote:

Originally posted by Groober:
At the PG WWBA World Championship in Jupiter there were 160 HS players at or above 90 mph.

Wow, that is striking.
Yeah, our area is same as others are stating - one guy out of the two leagues combined that sits 90 (touched 93). Nobody else really even close. He threw in the PG All-American game.

I decided to look up in PG the starting pitchers that 17 caught during his high school varsity career (over his 3 years - sophomore to senior year) with the following PG Stalker fastest recorded:

Juco - 90
D1/MiLB - 92
D1 - 92
D1/MiLB - 93
MiLB - 97.

Mind you they all sat at lower speeds.

Looking back on it now and reading all the posts it is rare and now does seem amazing to me.

I know on my son's team we have two guys pitching in the low 90's and our number one has touched 95. Not being from Texas but from my observation, particulary at the 5a level in our area of Texas it is not that uncommon. Don't get me wrong it is an incredible accomplishment and I may have become spoiled because of the talent level in this part of Texas. The thing that seperates these heat throwers is control, good secondary pitch and the ability to maintain the high velocity.

Hmmmm??? Sounds to me like you've said the same thing. . .only differently.

And be my guest and pick away. I like hearing what other have to say.

quote:

Originally posted by justbaseball:
Truman - I promise I'm not trying to pick on you...I just have a different take on this topic.

quote:

In any given HS baseball "league" I'd say you could almost always count the number of players who pitch or throw 90 or better on one hand.

My younger son's HS league...considered by some to be one of the top 2 or 3 HS baseball leagues on the West Coast...last year I would say there were ZERO pitchers who regularly pitched in the 90s. There were 1-3 (most likely 1) who could occasionally touch 90.

The year before, a year in which my son's team was ranked #1 in the nation by a couple of publications...there was 1 regular pitcher in the whole league (who was on my son's team) who regularly got into the 90s. There was a SS who sometimes closed that would pitch in the low 90s. He was not a primary pitcher on his team.

quote:

From what I've observed, it looks like a great majority of the HS pitchers throw from the low to mid 80's.

I think, with all leagues thrown into the mix, the average would be closer to 80 than to 85.

First - 90 for LHP is more than magic. 90 for RHP does open doors. 90 and pitching rather than throwing is pretty special. Top level D1's have their pick of 90+ RHPs. In those programs it is a door opener nothing more. For pro scouts 90 is a door opener - how exciting it is depends on your body type and how much more speed they project for you.

A month ago, I saw 2 pitchers on the same southern California team sit over 90. The rhp touched 98 and sat 95-6. The lhp touched 93 and sat 91-2.

I know because I gunned them. And, there were lots of scouts and a few gms in the stands watching the games.

A local pitching coach has a half-dozen local HS pitchers who touch or even sit 90.

Touching 90 opens lots of doors, no matter at what level you are at.

I have no doubt that in the warmer weather states you will find pitchers who are hitting 90+ and sitting there as well. It wasn't unusual here even years ago. Players are much better conditioned than they were years ago as well, so I would assume velo might be higher. If there are 7-800 attending PG tournaments is 160 touching 90 (which probably most are) and above that much?

How far will a HS pitcher throwing 98 be in a few years? That's the big question. Is the actual velocity recorded at the time or the projection more important?

Keep in mind that you can teach a pitcher how to pitch, but you can't teach velocity.

More amazing, if you think about it, is finding a HS pitcher in much colder climates throwing well or above 90, would you not agree?

When I hear about a High Schooler, especially an underclassman, throwing in the 90's I begin to wonder about longevity. Sometimes I think players are pushed too early simply for bragging rights.

quote:

Originally posted by mcmmccm:
When I hear about a High Schooler, especially an underclassman, throwing in the 90's I begin to wonder about longevity. Sometimes I think players are pushed too early simply for bragging rights.

Could be that much of what you speak of is true. My opinion is that when you see a 90+ pitcher getting attention, know that this might mean a big college scholarship or possible first round pick (which only happens to a select few), players may be pushing young bodies too hard or not correctly and this will lead to injury, which is often the case for hard hurlers.

Of course there is a difference in those that have projection and those that might be at max. A skinny lanky immature looking pitcher throwing 90+ may be more attractive to a coach or scout than the bearded 98 matured body guy in terms of investment.

JMO.

quote:

A month ago, I saw 2 pitchers on the same southern California team sit over 90. The rhp touched 98 and sat 95-6. The lhp touched 93 and sat 91-2.

I know because I gunned them. And, there were lots of scouts and a few gms in the stands watching the games.

Goosegg,

You might have been at the same game one of our scouts were at. Giolito and Fried The RHP we have ranked #1 and the LHP is #10 in the nation. Two first round pitchers on one high school team.

what is the teams record?

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:

quote:

A month ago, I saw 2 pitchers on the same southern California team sit over 90. The rhp touched 98 and sat 95-6. The lhp touched 93 and sat 91-2.

I know because I gunned them. And, there were lots of scouts and a few gms in the stands watching the games.

Goosegg,

You might have been at the same game one of our scouts were at. Giolito and Fried The RHP we have ranked #1 and the LHP is #10 in the nation. Two first round pitchers on one high school team.

My son's alma mater (HS) was participating in that tournament at SDSU...yes, it was Giolto and Fried. And I heard that there were a ton of scouts in attendance. What an impressive 1-2 punch that high school is carrying, and I heard they have a sophomore stud as well.

I can't say that my son's former HS has the same 1-2 punch, but they have a RHP that sits 89-92 and touches 94. I'm not subscribed to PG's scouting material anymore, but I'm sure he's ranked relatively high. They also have another young man RHP, that sits 87-88 and touches 90-91, and a junior RHP that sits 84-86 and touches 88. If the team hits a little, they should have a very successful season.

The high school for our area -- one high school, by itself -- has three pitchers who have been known to hit 90 or higher.

One is a LHP who runs 88-92 and is currently ranked as the # 60 player among 2012's by Perfect Game. They also list him # 131 among this year's draft prospects, though due to signability issues he may not be drafted that early.

Another 2012, a righty, has only touched 90 rarely and more commonly is in the 86-87 range.

Another righty, a 2013, has games where he can run 88-92. I have also seen him have days where he runs 84-88, so he's not a guy who throws 90 every time out. He's currently ranked # 116 among 2013's by PG.

The first two guys are signed with UVA. The third is the younger brother of a former UVA pitcher now in the pros.

Interestingly, none of those guys were the # 1 performer for that high school last year. That honor went to a 2012 LHP who runs 83-86 with command of three solid pitches and the heart of a lion. All State AAA in 2011, he's signed to Va. Tech.

I don't know why certain areas see strong concentrations of high velocity arms. But it happens in spots every year. I would speculate that when several of these guys share the same pitching coach, you might connect the dots.

But there's a lesson in the fact that if that team had one must-win game, at least for now, bachelor # 4 would get the ball. Velocity is a great tool and I am very much in favor of developing it as much as you can within your God-given limits, but as valuable as it is to pitching, it ain't all there is. And in high school, 85 is often plenty enough to throw it by guys as it is, especially if you can make them wonder if, on any given count, they might have to defend another pitch.

quote:

Originally posted by Groober:
At the PG WWBA World Championship in Jupiter there were 160 HS players at or above 90 mph.

Given the number of pitchers heading off to college baseball 160 isn't a large number. It means there are many pitchers throwing under 90 at PG who will head off to D1 ball.

quote:

Originally posted by Aleebaba:

quote:

O However to add to the discussion, i had the pleasure of watching a 17YO touch 88 and an 18YO "touch" 91 (for the fist time) two nights ago. It is rare, but pretty cool when you see it. Both (along with a few others) were in front of scouts.

I agree. Watching this 15 year old kid hit 90+ for the first time during a scrimmage at a big time D1 college, with the coaches present, was awesome. I can't wait to see what this kid will do when he is 17-18.

Before you get all worked up here's the minor league stats of a kid who hit 90 at fourteen. He's now played three years of A ball after three years of major college ball. I'm not knocking being able to throw 90. But it's not a guarantee of anything.

BA 14U player of the year

Given that Stock made the decision to pursue a career as a catcher, not as a pitcher, I'm not sure that proves your point.

Though I do think the point gets proved by many other examples.

One thing we do know is that a successful baseball career is a marathon and not a sprint. Out of all of those who do climb above 90, some will derail themselves through bad behavior and decisions. Others will be derailed by bad luck (specifically with injuries). Others will find that the Peter Principle applies to baseball players, and that once you're in pro ball, you're surrounded by 90+ guys and so to stand out at that level you must also master the other aspects of your craft.

When you throw 90+ in HS, you are probably able to just go out there and overpower people nearly all of the time. To succeed at the major league level, though, you will need to stand out among a host of 90+ peers. Justin Verlander got his opportunity by throwing 100, but it's the fact that he has 2 strong off-speed pitches that got him to Cy Young status. Nolan Ryan threw 100+, but without his tremendous curve his career could've mirrored, say, Mark Wohlers'.

90+ can keep you in the competition, give you the opportunity, but it's clearly not a guarantee of an MLB career. I suspect that may well be why Stock chose to pursue a different path for himself.

quote:

Originally posted by Groober:
At the PG WWBA World Championship in Jupiter there were 160 HS players at or above 90 mph.

I went to Jupiter in 2010, and we saw a lot of talent, but 160 in any year seems high. Maybe they round up if you hit 89!!!

quote:

Originally posted by MadDogPA:

quote:

Originally posted by Groober:
At the PG WWBA World Championship in Jupiter there were 160 HS players at or above 90 mph.

I went to Jupiter in 2010, and we saw a lot of talent, but 160 in any year seems high. Maybe they round up if you hit 89!!!

Wonder how many of them were firsts? Son first hit 90 in Jupiter, lots of scouts and coaches with radar guns behind the backstop can do that. He actually didn't start sitting in the 90's regularly until college.

Very good post by Midlo.

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:

quote:

Originally posted by Aleebaba:

quote:

O However to add to the discussion, i had the pleasure of watching a 17YO touch 88 and an 18YO "touch" 91 (for the fist time) two nights ago. It is rare, but pretty cool when you see it. Both (along with a few others) were in front of scouts.

I agree. Watching this 15 year old kid hit 90+ for the first time during a scrimmage at a big time D1 college, with the coaches present, was awesome. I can't wait to see what this kid will do when he is 17-18.

Before you get all worked up here's the minor league stats of a kid who hit 90 at fourteen. He's now played three years of A ball after three years of major college ball. I'm not knocking being able to throw 90. But it's not a guarantee of anything.

BA 14U player of the year

I know some oy you old timers may think it is ridiculous to be excited by these things, but us first timers will still get excited by the ride. Your first time to Disneyland only happens once.

Actually there were 158 pitchers at the WWBA Tournament in Jupiter last fall that topped out from 90 to 96 mph. It wasn’t even the best year for that statistic. No, the numbers are not rounded up. In fact, there were another 60 or more that topped out at 89. These numbers seem more amazing than they really are. There are 85 teams, most are loaded with very good prospects. There are lots of pitchers and some of the top teams are loaded with 90 mph guys.

Of the 158 90 mph guys only 64 were 92 or better. That means a lot of pitchers between 89 and 91. Then if you look at all the pitchers… 418 topped out between 84 and 88 mph. 138 topped out between 80 and 83 mph. So out of close to 800 pitchers in Jupiter, 158 topped at 90 mph or better.

When you look at it that way, it doesn’t seem so amazing.

As for the amount of high level talent, it is amazing. Everyone knows that it is rare for a player to make it quickly to the Big leagues. Many from the WWBA Jupiter tournament have made it quickly… Rick Porcello, Jason Heyward, Eric Hosmer, Mike Trout, Freddie Freeman, etc. However, a better idea of the talent involved is to look at past years. For example from Jupiter 2000 to Jupiter 2005 there are more that 330 players that ended up playing in the Major Leagues.

One more thing… All the 90 mph guys aren’t in Jupiter for the WWBA. Bottom line, there are a lot of kids that can throw 90 mph these days. Still it is very rare to see a 90 mph pitcher, let alone two of them on any high school team. In any given year you would be lucky to see more than two or three in our state. Obviously a lot more in some states.

Touching or cruising at 90 MPH certainly does not guarantee success above the high school level.

Touching or cruising at 90 does guarantee attracting a lot of attention college recruiters. Cruising at 90 will attract attention from ML scouts.

Of all the stats a high school player can attain, 90 MPH seems to be the biggest winner.

quote:

Originally posted by Aleebaba:

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:

quote:

Originally posted by Aleebaba:

quote:

O However to add to the discussion, i had the pleasure of watching a 17YO touch 88 and an 18YO "touch" 91 (for the fist time) two nights ago. It is rare, but pretty cool when you see it. Both (along with a few others) were in front of scouts.

I agree. Watching this 15 year old kid hit 90+ for the first time during a scrimmage at a big time D1 college, with the coaches present, was awesome. I can't wait to see what this kid will do when he is 17-18.

Before you get all worked up here's the minor league stats of a kid who hit 90 at fourteen. He's now played three years of A ball after three years of major college ball. I'm not knocking being able to throw 90. But it's not a guarantee of anything.

BA 14U player of the year

I know some oy you old timers may think it is ridiculous to be excited by these things, but us first timers will still get excited by the ride. Your first time to Disneyland only happens once.

I don't think it's ridiculous, we found it very exciting and again, it opened a lot of doors for son.
However, I know of a few others that hit that number and didn't get as much attention later on, and I know of some who didn't hit that number until later on and got LOTS of attention (in college).

What is exciting is hitting 90 with the POTENTIAL to hit higher, JMO.

Clocking a kid in high school at 90 mph is impressive for a scout, however as some of the previous posters indicated, it is not a measure of success. Pitching isn't just throwing as hard as you can, and scouts and college coaches understand this. It is a great mark to hit, but now there needs to be a concentration on getting better. TPM, I agree with your statement, if they have the potential to throw harder, then that is eye opening for a scout or coach.

quote:

Originally posted by Groober:
At the PG WWBA World Championship in Jupiter there were 160 HS players at or above 90 mph.

My son was at Jupiter this fall and only saw one pitcher throw over 90 during a game. I know there were others, I'm just saying I was at all his games and there was only one throwing over 90. You can see the gun so there's no doubt about it if you want to check it out.

It was easy to tell when there when there was a flamethrower pitching, as all the golf carts would be lined up at that field.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by PGStaff:
Actually there were 158 pitchers at the WWBA Tournament in Jupiter last fall that topped out from 90 to 96 mph.

Maybe I'm parsing words, but is "topping out" the same as throwing consistently? Or one pitch in one outing a pitcher hit 90 so he topped out at 90? It does seem plausible that there were a lot of pitchers who threw over 90 for a few pitches. These guys knew there were there to light up a gun.

My son did stand in against a pitcher who could throw 90 plus against more than one batter. He was quite something to watch, although he didn't hit 90 pitching against my son (I was watching the PG gun). Don't tell, though, as my son likes to tell everyone he faced a pitcher throwing over 90.

Topping Out = Highest recorded velocity or peak velocity. There are always some that throw consistently in the 90s. Those guys are not as common. Typically a pitcher will average about 2 or 3 mph less than his peak velocity. It is very rare for a pitcher who averages 85-86 to touch 90 mph. Sometimes you will see a pitcher reported as 88-90 fastball and 90 is the peak. This means he has thrown 90 several times. Sometimes you might see 88-90 fastball with top velocity being 91. This usually means he touched 91 once, maybe twice.

I'm in the #1 HS league in WA state, and we had an unbelievable amount of talent in the league last year. We had 7-8 90+ guys (11 team league).

IMHO, there isn't a tremendous amount of consistency in HS velocity. Once in a while you get a kid you will sit at 93 for 7 innings. I've seen exactly one and he was drafted in the third round, but went to college. He will probably be a first rounder this summer after his JR. year.

I've seen hard throwers top at 90 one night and a week later top at 86. I've seen pitch to pitch variations almost that large. I've had guys ask me "what did your kid just throw, that one didn't fit the pattern?". Heck if I know, ask him.

HS isn't like MLB where you see a pitcher sitting at his FB speed his entire appearance and repeating the same number in 30 starts. These kids are teen agers and there is a WHOLE BUNCH of difference between them and professionals.

Very true.

You may have a kid who runs 87-88 with his 4-seamer who occasionally nips 90. Then he may run 85-87 with his 2-seamer and peak on that pitch at 89. But kids are sometimes not so good at maintaining focus pitch to pitch. Sometimes they may be struggling with command and start to just lay it in there. You even get times when they are coming off the flu, just had a grueling midterm that day, or whatever, they are just not 100%. So that kid who everyone says throws 90 may toss up some 84's on any given day.

Son is a LHP who throws 86-87 effortlessly. 2 boys he played travel ball with hit 92-93, both rhp. Both have had reconstrutive surgery. I think the difference is they threw with everything they had. When son tries to hit 90, he can't find the plate!