A change I'd like to see in college baseball

Amen

I hear you just baseball. Those 2 changes would make a heck of a lot of difference in the game. I have always disliked the crowding of the plate with metal bats from a pitching perspective. I think it looks bad also. If you take away one or the other it would make a big difference. Its hard to muscle a ball over the infield if you are left holding splinters.

I agree...but there were not nearly as many HBP this year compared to last in the CWS. You are probably right in that it is b/c since it is an offensive weapon, that pitchers now pitch away from it.

For me...I would like to see the umpires enforce the "one foot in the box" rule that was supposedly implemented a few years ago. Games are now running ridiculously long.

The only other change I'd like to see is our home fences moved in from 445 in CF and 400 in RCF to maybe 390 and 370 . Spoken by the father of a hitter

JT - I'll trade you the 445->390...AND...400->370 for removal of metal bats...AND...enforcement of the batters box!

quote:

Originally posted by justbaseball:
JT - I'll trade you the 445->390...AND...400->370 for removal of metal bats...AND...enforcement of the batters box!

Removal of metal bats will cost you...make it 320 down the line and 360 to the gaps and we may have a deal!

JBB,
Unless I was dreaming, the CWS announcers did mention something about umpires doing a better job this year of enforcing what you are speaking of. I agree with the away, away, stuff and I think that pitching away really prevents a college pitcher from learning to pitch inside and improve his game. Mine struggled in college frequently, the slider wasn't his best pitch, and he was constantly having to move hitters back.

I didn't see too many hitters trying to get a free ride, but I wasn't up close and personal like you were.

All umpires have to do is look at the stats of the teams they will be officiating, a player with many HBP should be a signal to watch carefully.

I do agree with you on the thing about hitters crowding the plate. But as far as the bats go, I think if it were changed to wood it would ruin the game of college baseball. You got to stick with metal, even though of some of the scores in this years CWS.

quote:

Originally posted by Wshopper4:
I do agree with you on the thing about hitters crowding the plate. But as far as the bats go, I think if it were changed to wood it would ruin the game of college baseball. You got to stick with metal, even though of some of the scores in this years CWS.

Ruin the game? Au contraire my friend. There are so many better uses for those metal aberrations.

mailbox stands
campfire spits
Festivus poles
lightning rods
mop handles
towel racks
tiki torch holders
rebar
hand rails
meat tenderizers
rolling pins
...

quote:

Originally posted by Wshopper4:
I do agree with you on the thing about hitters crowding the plate. But as far as the bats go, I think if it were changed to wood it would ruin the game of college baseball. You got to stick with metal, even though of some of the scores in this years CWS.

It would mean more 5-3 games rather than 10-8 games. I don't see anything wrong with this.

They made mention of the "armour" hitters are able to wear now. My dad suggested hitters be allowed to wear all the "armour" they want provided they have to wear it while they run the bases. I'll bet you'd see less of it real fast. Anyone else tired of the game stopping so the player can give something to the coach after the play?

Notice JBB didn't say anything about doing away with metal bats.

The college game is not about preparing players for proball. It's about a faster paced game and the long ball.
D1 will never allow wood, they don't have time for players to adjust.

JMO.

As long as they are using metal bats pitchers will live away , hitters will crowd the plate , the strike zone will be big away and hitters will continue to get hit more often. You have great hitters at the plate. All of them can hit the inside fastball. So they crowd the plate to take away the outside fastball on the black the best they can. So pitchers work away to stay away from the power and the umpires widen the zone because if not the scores would be 28 - 27. Hitters because they are all over the plate get hit more often when the pitchers do come inside.

The only way to fix these problems is to go to wood bats where the pitchers can actually work both sides of the plate effectively without having to worry about getting a 2 seamer yanked out on the handle of a metal bat. If they are not going to go to wood then get used to what you have right now. Its a great game I am not complaining. But the fact is if you have a tight legit strike zone where balls three to four inches off the plate are not called strikes the games might never end. How many times in the entire CWS did anyone see anyone get a fastball inside that was not ripped foul or fair? It is almost impossible for a pitcher to get a fb on the inside corner called a strike. The umpires are so conditioned to calling the outside part of the plate that they are caught off guard when a pitch is thrown inside and not hit.

Going to wood is the only thing that would fix these issues. I dont see that happening so I will continue to enjoy watching the game and understand that it is what it is. The same pitchers that can not come inside all year long will be sawing off the best of the best this summer and getting them out.

quote:

Other than getting rid of metal bats...the change I'd most like to see in college baseball would be for umpires to start enforcing the batters box.

I don't take that as a ringing pinging endorsement of metal.
Maybe, to give the pitchers back the inner half, they could give hitters a choice of wood bats or metal fungos.

Yup, I missed that one!

quote:

I didn't see too many hitters trying to get a free ride,

I am going to be bold and go out on a limb and suggest it had a lot to do with 2 particular west coast coaches not having teams in Omaha this year ...

quote:

D1 will never allow wood, they don't have time for players to adjust.

It used to be wood. Why can't there be a return to wood?

Easton, Louisville/TPX, and DeMarini pour in a lot of $$ into sponsorship and coaches stipends. That is why you may never see a return to wood.

quote:

Originally posted by justbaseball:
Thinking back about these past 4 years, I have a different perspective on college baseball. I see much more detail than I ever did before. Over time, I'd like to share some of those observations and get your thoughts.

Other than getting rid of metal bats.
Thoughts?

Wooden bats cost more and break more easily I believe. That's why they use metal.

quote:

Originally posted by JT:
Easton, Louisville/TPX, and DeMarini pour in a lot of $$ into sponsorship and coaches stipends. That is why you may never see a return to wood.

The "follow the money trail" explaination is one I can accept. I may not like it. But I realize it's how the world works.

While I'd like to see a return to wood, I understand that the bat companies are not going to let that happen.

So how about a change in the BESR? Make the metal bats less "hot". From a bat company point of view, this is a good thing because it forces all of the old bats out of the game. Yet it can bring back some of the balance in the game. If the BESR2 formula was -1.5 instead of -3, and if the exit speed were reduced, balls would carry less far and batters would have a harder time getting around on the inside pitch.

Of course, the way the BESR was supposed to work was to make metal bats and wood bats equal on the exist speed off of the bat - something which I believe worked at first but the engineers have since figured out how to shift the balance towards metal. With a perfect formula, you would still see kids picking wood bats rather than metal.

08

quote:

Originally posted by 08Dad:
Of course, the way the BESR was supposed to work was to make metal bats and wood bats equal on the exist speed off of the bat - something which I believe worked at first but the engineers have since figured out how to shift the balance towards metal. With a perfect formula, you would still see kids picking wood bats rather than metal.

Given the way metal bats are made today, there is no perfect formula. Wood bats and metal bats have fundamentally different characteristics.

A wood bat is made of a solid constant density material, which means that most of the weight of the bat is located at the barrel. Conversely, a metal bat is hollow, and has a thick wall near the handle, and a very thin wall in the region of the barrel. For bats of the same weight and length, it is much easier to swing the metal bat quickly (in technical terms, the metal bat has a lower moment of inertia about the handle), and the bat speed is higher. So the ball should come off the metal bat faster, except there is less mass behind the ball, and that more than compensates for the higher bat speed. On the other hand, the trampoline effect of a thin wall metal bat tends to make the ball exit speed higher.
So there are three competing effects--MOI, mass behind the ball, and trampoline. For the particular bat/ball collision velocity used in the BESR tests (which at first glance seem low, but are actually pretty close to college speeds) and for a ball hit on the sweet spot, a typical metal bat matches a good wood bat pretty well, now that lower limits have been placed on the MOI. But the match doesn't hold up as we vary the conditions: For a higher collision velocity, a metal bat tends to give a higher exit speed, because the trampoline effect dominates. Facing slow pitching, a wood bat may drive the ball farther. Or increase the size/strength of the batter enabling him to swing a heavier bat, and the advantage likely switches back to wood.

The point is that no formula will cause a metal bat to perfom identically to a wood bat, when we consider different lengths and weights of bats, different collision velocities, and a varielty of hitting capabilities.

If we required a metal (or any other material) bat to have the same weight distribution as a wood bat, and got rid of the trampoline effect, then the bat would perform just like a wood bat. For metal bats, that would require a very different type of construction, which would likely be fairly expensive. A metal skin covering a hex cell interior comes to mind (folks who were skiers in the 70s/80s may recall Hexcell skis). Or we could just laminate up a low density wood with plastic resin, and have a durable bat at a low price. A bamboo bat comes to mind.

I'm not so pessimistic about the resurgence of wood or wood-like bats. I wouldn't be surprised if in 10 years, metal bats were used only before high school, or in beer softball leagues. The NFHS, on a national or state level could drive that, and might do so for safety reasons. The NCAA could do the same on a national or conference basis. Sponsorship of college teams would still continue. Of course, a switch to wood-like bats would help professional baseball identify potential hitters better. Maybe they'd like to set up a bat fund for all the college teams!

wow, 3finger, great post.

I learned a lot. Thx.

Melt the metal bats!

I understand metal bats being used in softball...and in LL baseball when some players haven't quite mastered hitting a round ball with a round bat. But once they get to HS and have 18-yr-olds with stubble on their chins hitting against 15-yr-old pitchers, using metal bats is VERY questionable. At the college level, metal bats are ridiculous!

Okay, guess I should mention that comes from the mom of a pitcher...

Julie

I don’t see it as a problem --- but if it is I don’t think it can be fixed by rules and regulations. It's a challenge for a pitcher to come inside effectively and one few college pitchers have mastered. Another thing that contributes to this is the demand for high velocity pitchers at the D-1 level. I see a lot of effectively wild pitchers that were obviously recruited for their velocity and not their ability to hit their spots. If Josh Fields (the say he’s just a step away from MLB) were to attempt to come inside on a regular basis there would be a LARGE number of HBP. He is “effectively wild” and that doesn’t work well on the inside of the plate. I did think some of the better pitchers in the CWS used the inside effectively and it was nice to see that. I also saw at least one call where the umpire didn’t allow the HBP saying the batter made no effort to avoid being hit. Yes they crowd the plate but that can be fixed with good umpiring. Going to metal WILL change the nature of the game but obviously some will call it a “good change” and others will call it a “bad change”. I know it is a safety issue (not sure how big) but the driving force in the baseball world just being politically correct to attack the aluminum bad and praise the wood. It’s a heck of a game as it is --------- and to make changes would make it different but not sure it will make it “better”.
Fungo

quote:

Ruin the game? Au contraire my friend. There are so many better uses for those metal aberrations.

mailbox stands
campfire spits
Festivus poles
lightning rods
mop handles
towel racks
tiki torch holders
rebar
hand rails
meat tenderizers
rolling pins
...

...now THAT was funny!

I like MN-Mom's slogan of " Melt the Metal Bats ".
It has a nice ping ring to it!!

Metal bats need to say sianara at the highschool and college level.

We do not need metal in LL either----long before metal players were using wood in LL and it worked fine and we saw many great great hitters evolve over those years

I like the way you're thinking TR.

SSM, I thought you might enjoy some more alternate uses...

mailing tube
table legs
kite string winder
ketchup dispenser
flower vase
pooper scooper*
pyrotechnics launcher
cattle prod
whirligig
cockroach killer
boat oar*
potato masher
wagon wheel spoke
olympic practice torch



*requires attachment

This poll is 100% for wood bats.

Maybe the college players should "go on strike" until the colleges and high school switch to wood.

Several years ago, MLB offered wood bats to selected colleges, but the NCAA refused.

We have cancelled our association with the Japan HS Baseball Federation, because they refuse to use wood bats.

If one of Scott Boros clients is injured by a batted ball from a metal bat, you can believe there will be a "change".

Two years ago, when I was in Japan with our American team, we were informed that [2] Japan HS pitchers were killed with a batted ball.

The Australia State teams will not play the Japan HS teams, if they use metal bats.

Unfortunately the "money" involved with the bat manufactures for promotion is very difficult to combat.

"There will be a change" You can count on it.

I think it will begin with HS baseball.

Bob

there are some d2 conference' that use wood. aluminum in the regionals though. i haven't heard any complaints from the ncaa. i think there is an ncjaa region in the northwest that uses wood also.

quote:

As was the case in the previous meeting, the Capahas (14-4) swung wood bats while the Millers used aluminum.

This was in a summer league game, but how much sense does that make?

Just a little controversy to add to this discussion. I saw a metal bat ( will not say name it is under investigation) but high profile metal bat split into two the other day. The other iece went flying into the infiled hard and when we looked at the bat it was metal slices all exposed. we could not believe it could hapen. If it would of hit someone it would of been a serious injusry esp/ if the metal pierced their body. Unbelievable and probably doesnt happen very often, but it did.

In 1987 during my 1st year of operating the Area Code games, my Cubs team [12 future ML players]
played 30 games against teams using metal bats.

We used wood, won all the games and the left fielder miss judge several fly balls.

Can you tell me why!.

Bob Williams

If a hitter is "on" the plate and the pitch is on the inside corner then it is going to be a foul ball if hit on the barrel. That's a strike! Problem is if the pitcher misses inside he could hit the batter or if he misses a little away he could give up a bomb. Point is good pitchers can work inside all day long if batters are on the plate. Average pitchers will default to the outside. Especially if ump is giving a ball or two outside.

It also depends on righty vs lefty or righty righty etc..

TripleDad - I agree with most of your points.

The problem (as I see it) it twofold...1) when a hitter is already over/very near the plate it is much easier for him to dive into a pitch on the inner half and thus 2) many college pitching coaches are afraid of putting runners on base and therefore pitch away a lot (called pitches).

There are many more angles to this, but that is one that is common from my observation.

Bottom line IMO...umpires need to get tougher on hitters who get hit by pitch while leaning over the plate. That alone with improve the game and result in better pitching performances.

Consultant, good point! In summer ball we go back and forth between metal and wood tourneys and it is very noticable how the outfielders are mis-reading some balls.

What is really interesting is when a ball gets hit on the screws with a wooden bat, the outfielders usually error "in" and the ball goes over their head.

jb, agree, if guys are leaning over the plate to take one this shouldn't be allowed and enforced.

To me, if I want to take an inside pitch away from a pitcher I get off the plate. In that situation, I can drive the inside half of the plate and part of the other half. The outside 1/4 I go oppo. May have to get long if fooled outside but can get it in play. But if the ump is giving a ball or 2 outside thats tough to do. There are a million variables, but thats my thinking.

btw.. my oldest stays off the plate for the most part, much more than his peers. From my observation, he is most susceptable to the outside change up, or the outside 2-5 curve from a righty.
If a lefty tries outside and catches too much of outside the corner the ball might leave the yard.

lets keep that a secret

Not college, but I had the pleasure of seeing Lincecum pitch the other day and one of the things that I noted was that all of the hitters were way back and if there had been a box they wouldn't have been in it.

IMO, it is an advantage for the pitcher if they can work down in the zone and the umpire is good enough to call the pitch where it is when it crosses the plate.

quote:

Originally posted by CADad:


IMO, it is an advantage for the pitcher if they can work down in the zone and the umpire is good enough to call the pitch where it is when it crosses the plate.

Nothing is more frustrating than watching balls cross at the knees over and over and have them called balls by an umpire with poor depth perception. It forces the pitcher to get them up. Then they have less success. I have never understood why umpires don't get filmed from the side and rear to see how they are calling the knee high pitches. In hs and college, I see this problem everywhere.

I know we all want an umpire to be consistent. That is great when you get it. There is however an established strike zone in the rule book and I would like to see it adhered to and the ones who don't do it be taught how to do it. The umpiring community seems to really resist this view and you always here that "every umpire has his own zone."

The change I would like to see is umpires enforcing hitters to make an attempt to move away from being hit by a pitch.

nowadays, batters dont move a muscle. Did you see the one hitter in the CWS take a pitch to the cheek. He never batted an eyelash and that was so easy to move out of the way.

I dont know what happened that makes batters willing to get hit in head to get on base.