A couple more balk questions

quote:

Originally posted by YHF:


(1) This time, on the quick move I notice he picked up his front foot first, then stepped off with the right foot to spin and make the throw to 1st.

Thanks.

I'm confused. Are you saying that while his left foot is in the air, he stepped off with his pivot foot? How?

Yes it is legal. He may step directly top first without disengaging. It may be a straight step or a spin move or a jab step. It sounds like a spin move is what you are seeing. Any of these three moves are considered from the rubber, so he has to throw. If he steps back with his pivot foot, he may feint to first because he is now an infielder.

Okay, I get it. He didn't "step off" while the other foot was in the air, he executed a jump turn or jab step in which he "jumped" with he front foot leaving the ground first. Legal.

Yes, you guys are right in what you're explaining. It was sort of a jump or spin move but by clearly picking up the front foot first he got the runners to bite on it, thinking he was going home.

I wasn't sure it was a balk when I saw it. At the very least, I thought it was some clever teaching by the pitcher's coaches. Seeing the runners' reactions it was clearly effective in getting them to move toward second.

Thanks.

It is a balk.....it is something that is taught.....slightly move the front foot first ie. lift the heel......then spin and throw.....it's a balk move right handers use and usually taught at higher levels and it pushing the envelope.....

it ain't cheating until you get caught.....hahahaha


Michael you are confused in YHF's explaination...

RHP's front (left) foot moves first with a runner on first only and he throws to first it is balk......

Spin move legal?...of course....but as close as you can get is both feet moving at the same time.....if the front foot clearly moves first and he throws to first it is a balk.....clearly is all relative.....

to teach this type of balk move you are basically buckling the front leg then spinning to pick to first....quite common at higher levels like I said before...

quote:

Originally posted by LOW337:
Michael you are confused in YHF's explaination...

I don't think so. The move in the OP is not what you have described.

quote:

Originally posted by Jimmy03:

quote:

Originally posted by LOW337:
Michael you are confused in YHF's explaination...

I don't think so. The move in the OP is not what you have described.

YHF said:
couple batters later there's a runner on 1st again. Same series of moves by the pitcher. This time, on the quick move I notice he picked up his front foot first, then stepped off with the right foot to spin and make the throw to 1st. From a long/generic view it probably looked like it was all in one move.


Jimmy,
it says he picked up his front foot first

I know exactly what he is talking about....it is taught.....gotta be careful but it is taught...it is a balk move.....been around forever.....

Read the OP again......

and think about it.....

What commits a pitcher to the plate w/ a runner on first base only??????.......

As a runner, when that front heel lifts, he has to throw the ball to the plate......

He does not have to step off to throw to first....that is common knowledge....but if that front heel lifts that commits the pitcher to the plate.....

to teach that particular balk move you teach the pitcher (RHP obviously) to slightly lift the heel first/buckle the front knee then throw to first..... that can get the runner leaning if he is running and can possibly catch the inexperienced runner being antsy trying to get his secondary too quickly......all of which can turn into cheap outs ie. pickoffs......

many do not understand this rule. From the set position (one of the two legal pitching positions) he may throw directly towards a base as long as he first steps towrds the base he is throwing at before he delivers the ball. He may also do this same thing from the windup position- at least in pony league rules. A lot of coaches teach that when you see the front leg move first to take off because he now has to pitch home. This is obviously not the case as lefties step and throw from the set position all the time.

As far as moving the front leg first and then jump spinning- perfectly legal. The sound logic is always that there was no ill intent to decieve the runner. Any good coach will teach his players that on first with a rhp you do not get a big lead or run until the pitcher has moved his front leg into a position that then requires him to pitch home. The pitcher has to have some ability to legally try to pick off runners and be deceptive all the while being legal about it, otherwise the advantage would always go to the runner.

Tonight in our city game I had the opposing coach conitnually trying to sway the umpire into calling my pitcher for a balk- here was the situation- runner on second with two out. The runner is obviously trying to get as big as lead as possible so that he can score on any hit or mistake. My pitcher knowing this will after he has come set, look directly at the catcher and go into his windup only he will turn his back completely to the batter as if he is going to make a throw towards second. This is all done as he is raising his stride foot. At the top of his leg kick and with his back all the way turned towards the batter he will suddenly look at second freezing the runner or even causing him to dive back. But instead of throwing to second,, my pitcher will just complete his leg kick, look back towards home and fire a strike to the unsuspecting batter, which also catches the batter off guard. It is all done in one smooth sweeping motion with no hesitation or pause.

The opposing coach says that my pitcher can't do that because he hasnt pitched that way until a runner gets on second and he says that is decieving the runner and is a balk. My defense is that as long as he doesn't hesitate, jerk or pause unaturally he can change his leg kick and amount he turns his back to the batter as much or as little as he wants. The pitcher doesn't have to have the same exact pitching motion every time. A good pitcher could have 10 or more different motions in his delivery to try to keep runners close at second.

Sorry, Low337, the poster corrected his OP with:
"Yes, you guys are right in what you're explaining."

The pitcher apparently did not STEP, but jumped with both feet, the front foot leaving the ground a bit before the pivot foot. It was not a step with one foot, then after it is grounded, stepping with the other.

This is a legal jump turn or jab step.

What you are describing is definitely a balk, and not such a clever one. It is commonly called in my neighborhood.

RH F1: If the left foot as you say is lifted first, and "then he steps off" with the pivot foot, then I'll assume the left foot replants prior too the Rf coming off? Or this guys Hudini on helium.

What I'm picturing by the description, there's one of two things going on.

Either, F1 is moving the FF first with out simultaneously, in a smooth and continous motion, moving everything else? That sounds like a balk.

Or, the wrong read on first motion by F1. If the coaches and runners are focusing on the front foot only and intently, the near simutaneous movement of the PF might appear to be coming second. Definite HTBT.

But, FF moves first and by itself, better be going somewhere, except first.

in the OP the move he speaks of is an advaced move....you will not see kids doing this kind of move in HS very often at all.....

It is done at higher levels of baseball....the front foot moving slightly before the throw to first is slight.....you lift your heel a split second before you spin to throw.....

an explaination of the entire rule book of what is legal and what is not is definately not necessary....

quote:

Tonight in our city game I had the opposing coach conitnually trying to sway the umpire into calling my pitcher for a balk- here was the situation- runner on second with two out. The runner is obviously trying to get as big as lead as possible so that he can score on any hit or mistake. My pitcher knowing this will after he has come set, look directly at the catcher and go into his windup only he will turn his back completely to the batter as if he is going to make a throw towards second. This is all done as he is raising his stride foot. At the top of his leg kick and with his back all the way turned towards the batter he will suddenly look at second freezing the runner or even causing him to dive back. But instead of throwing to second,, my pitcher will just complete his leg kick, look back towards home and fire a strike to the unsuspecting batter, which also catches the batter off guard. It is all done in one smooth sweeping motion with no hesitation or pause.

Wouldn't this just be bad baserunning? If the pitcher is turning that far in his kick towards second this his leg is crossing his pivot leg. I thought once that the leg crosses the pitcher is committed to the plate - you see this (or hear it) when there is a lefty on the mound and runner on first. Wouldn't it still apply here?

If so the runner should just take off for third because the pitcher has to go to the plate.

Or am I wrong?

quote:

Originally posted by coach2709:

quote:

Tonight in our city game I had the opposing coach conitnually trying to sway the umpire into calling my pitcher for a balk- here was the situation- runner on second with two out. The runner is obviously trying to get as big as lead as possible so that he can score on any hit or mistake. My pitcher knowing this will after he has come set, look directly at the catcher and go into his windup only he will turn his back completely to the batter as if he is going to make a throw towards second. This is all done as he is raising his stride foot. At the top of his leg kick and with his back all the way turned towards the batter he will suddenly look at second freezing the runner or even causing him to dive back. But instead of throwing to second,, my pitcher will just complete his leg kick, look back towards home and fire a strike to the unsuspecting batter, which also catches the batter off guard. It is all done in one smooth sweeping motion with no hesitation or pause.

Wouldn't this just be bad baserunning? If the pitcher is turning that far in his kick towards second this his leg is crossing his pivot leg. I thought once that the leg crosses the pitcher is committed to the plate - you see this (or hear it) when there is a lefty on the mound and runner on first. Wouldn't it still apply here?

If so the runner should just take off for third because the pitcher has to go to the plate.

Or am I wrong?

Wouldn't suggest doing what was explained in the city game.....

runner on second pitcher can break the plane.....ie. use an inside move .....

inside moves are commonly used for the following:
* find out if hitter is bunting
* runner is not honoring the inside move..antsy baserunner (he gets his secondary as soon a pitcher kicks)
* you think he is running......


so w/ runner on second pitcher can break the plane and still throw to the plate.....

G'bread Man has it 100%. (A rules difference: FED does not allow a throw to a base from the windup position.)

As long as the free foot steps toward 1st before the throw, it doesn't matter what the pivot foot does.

What LOW337 describes (lifting the heel before stepping to 1st) is a balk. Some pitchers will buckle the knee to get the same effect. This is also a balk. The first movement must be a step toward 1st (or a legal jump-turn) to avoid the balk.

The jab step (pivot foot "jabs" toward 3rd just before the free foot steps toward 1st) is also legal in all codes. Some consider it a poorly-timed (but still legal) jump-turn.

Coach - If the free foot goes behind the rubber, it commits F1 to the plate OR 2nd base (although he is not required to throw to 2nd).

YHF - As long as F1 doesn't take the ball out of the glove (or his hand off the ball) and doesn't move his arm(s), he is OK. He is allowed to adjust his grip on the ball. Some pitchers will "tap" the ball on the inside of the glove. This is also OK as long as the arms don't move.

Thanks for all the replies guys. I try my best to describe what I see but as is often the case you probably HTBT.

I think many coaches teach their kids to read the feet/heels of the RHP. I suspect when they saw the front foot coming up first (or knee bending...whichever way you want to say it) with the rear foot still on the rubber, it looks like the pitcher's going home.

I initially thought it was a balk watching the game. But later wasn't sure since the pitcher did continue into a spin move from there, even though the front foot moved first.

quote:

But later wasn't sure since the pitcher did continue into a spin move from there, even though the front foot moved first.

That is the idea.....front heel up/buckle knee ....gets runner to bite....pitcher throws to first....it's kinda cheating

It is literally a balk.....but i guess it is not a balk until the umpire says so.....

quote:

Coach - If the free foot goes behind the rubber, it commits F1 to the plate OR 2nd base (although he is not required to throw to 2nd).

I'm stupid - I should have (and actually do) know this.

I just sounded like an idiot.

quote:

Originally posted by LOW337:
That is the idea.....front heel up/buckle knee ....gets runner to bite....pitcher throws to first....it's kinda cheating

It is literally a balk.....but i guess it is not a balk until the umpire says so.....

It's a balk, and a good move, all in one, depending on how many umps you have. We teach our better kids this and the ones who do it well are filthy good at it.

quote:

Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
Tonight in our city game I had the opposing coach conitnually trying to sway the umpire into calling my pitcher for a balk- here was the situation- runner on second with two out. The runner is obviously trying to get as big as lead as possible so that he can score on any hit or mistake. My pitcher knowing this will after he has come set, look directly at the catcher and go into his windup only he will turn his back completely to the batter as if he is going to make a throw towards second. This is all done as he is raising his stride foot. At the top of his leg kick and with his back all the way turned towards the batter he will suddenly look at second freezing the runner or even causing him to dive back. But instead of throwing to second,, my pitcher will just complete his leg kick, look back towards home and fire a strike to the unsuspecting batter, which also catches the batter off guard. It is all done in one smooth sweeping motion with no hesitation or pause.

No offense but this sounds like bad baseball all the way around. The baserunner sounds overmatched, I always wanted our pitcher picking up the target rather than jacking with the runner at second, and if a batter is caught off guard by what you described he needs to try playing s****r.

Yes i think it is pretty bad baseball- at least offensively for their team. they obviously haven't been instructed well enough on what to watch for in the pitchers motions. I personally believe a rhp best move to second is where he puts himself in position where he can in the middle of his windup either throw to second or bring the leg forward quickly and fire a strike to home. The nice part is if he brings the leg kick back far and rather slowly and the runner breaks he can just continue the leg kick backwards and step towards second base and then with ball in hand run the runner down and tag him out in a run down.

Low is right. What you describe is 100% balk all the way. With a runner on only first base, if the front foot moves (don't use the lefty argument with a right-handed pitcher; whole different set of rules apply because they are lefties) at all before back foot moves, the pitcher has committed to throw home. Period.

quote:

Originally posted by isaacvanwart:
Low is right. What you describe is 100% balk all the way. With a runner on only first base, if the front foot moves (don't use the lefty argument with a right-handed pitcher; whole different set of rules apply because they are lefties) at all before back foot moves, the pitcher has committed to throw home. Period.

First, I can't find a different set of rules in my copies of the OBR, FED rulebook or NCAA rulebook for RHPs and LHPs.

Second, your statement that "if the front foot moves at all before the back foot move, the pitcher has committed to throw home" is incorrect.

From the rubber, a pitcher may deliver a pitch, step and throw to a base, or disengage.

Not if he lifts the front foot first (this assumes he is throwing to first base--I agree he can throw to third or second either to throw out a runner or force him back to the original base--but if he is in his stretch, back foot in contact with the rubber, and lifts his front foot, he cannot from that position throw to first (my view is that he can make the traditional move to second base from that position, but not to first)).

Jimmy03 is right, the rules apply equally between right and left handers. If the pitcher is lifting the heal and setting it back or is knee popping, it is a balk. Saying if he lifts his front foot he is committed to the plate is wrong. From the strtch he can do several things not just pitch.
Left handers do have a couple of more options simply because they are facing first. They don't have different rules, just a little advantage in that they don't have spin.

I certainly agree the pitcher has options generally. However, this thread addresses a right-handed pitcher's options, with a runner on first, when he is in the stretch with his back foot in contact with the rubber. From that position, once he lifts that front foot, he has two options (most people would say one): (1) he can go home; or, (2) and this one is controversial, he can wheel and throw to second base to throw out a stealing runner or force him back to first.

quote:

Originally posted by isaacvanwart:
I certainly agree the pitcher has options generally. However, this thread addresses a right-handed pitcher's options, with a runner on first, when he is in the stretch with his back foot in contact with the rubber. From that position, once he lifts that front foot, he has two options (most people would say one): (1) he can go home; or, (2) and this one is controversial, he can wheel and throw to second base to throw out a stealing runner or force him back to first.

This perpetuates the myth that a right handed pitcher in set position cannot step and throw to first.

By rule and historical practice, this is simply wrong.

Admittedly, the move is fraught with danger (primarily from untrained umpires), but it can be done legally.

Jimmy is again correct. Depending on where the runners are, the pitcher can go to any base without breaking the rubber. He must throw to first, he can feint to the others.

He can, Jimmy, provided he lifts his back foot first.

As long as he steps to 1st with the free foot ahead of the throw, he's fine. There is no requirement to step off with the pivot foot.

quote:

Originally posted by isaacvanwart:
He can, Jimmy, provided he lifts his back foot first.

I'm sorry, but this is wrong. There is nothing in the rules or historical practice that requires a RHP to disengage prior to stepping towards first. On the contrary, the rulebooks (all codes) and all supportive interpretive guides, (JEA, J/R, BRD) explicity state that any pitcher may step and throw to a base without disengaging.