A couple of Juco questions

D-mac I am going to address your last comment about transfer credits....since this is what I deal with for a living.  It can get tricky but if you plan,  most classes will transfer......at least that is how my States legislature has set up our post secondary system.        The problem is a player doesn't know exactly where he will end up after the two years of playing baseball......in the same state or in another state.  If another state then there is a chance that some courses wont transfer.  Let me give you an example......Biology......we have a "non" majors biology that many business majors take to get their science component completed.  This course will transfer to all of our state schools.   But maybe a school in TN wont accept??  To be safe I will have my son take the "majors" biology which WILL transfer to any school as a science component for his major.....even if he is a business major.  Here is another example in MY state.  The SEC school up the street will accept the non majors biology for their elementary ed majors.  The  SunBelt school an hour and a half away wants the majors bio for their elementary ed majors.    

D-Mac as you can imagine....when my son went to orientation and registration at his D1 JUCO last week (not the one I work at),  he was well prepared for the classes he needed to take.     I sent him off and he came back with a great schedule, in class most days at 8 a.m.and done by 2 p.m. (practice starts at 2:30 or so each day).  

I am JUCO biased since I attended a JUCO, and several of my close friends attended a JUCO.  We turned out pretty successful  (lawyer, college professor, and a doctor), and without any student debt.  

d-mac posted:

For a 2020, if he commits to a Juco but then has a velocity jump his Senior year, will D1's still recruit him since he is committed to a Juco?

For a projectable kid do you think the Juco route or D1 redshirt route is the best way to develop?  I also know of some people who are taking the walk on route at high D1's with the thought that they will be more sought after as an SEC/ACC transfer than if they had gone to Juco.  With the new rule, walk ons can transfer without sitting out. 

For those that went the Juco route, how successful were you in transferring credits?  A D2 coach told me to expect about 48 out of 60 credits that will transfer.  Is that accurate?   

Wow, there's a loaded set of questions.

If he has a velo jump to a number that is something a decent D1 would typically offer on, I think he will still get that attention and I don't think the Juco would have a huge issue with it.  They are usually last in the food chain and accustomed to players headed to greener pastures, particularly if a D1 scholy offer is attached.  In fact, JC's in this part of the country are VERY competitive, yet still don't really count on true commitments until the player shows up in the Fall.  (I have learned here that isn't the case everywhere in the country, but still... ).

The walk on route is your easiest question to answer.  Unless assured a Spring roster spot (or redshirt status, I suppose), there is a good chance the walk on player going to an SEC or ACC school doesn't make it through the Fall, thus negating much of the clout that comes with being associated with a P5 program in a transfer scenario.  Performing well at a highly competitive JC has a great deal of merit but there are also some limitations with which schools recruit from the JC ranks.

Juco transfer of credits (and 4-yr transfer credits) can be a huge issue.  Generally, IMO, you can count on at least an extra semester, probably an extra year of school due to lost credits.  As Stayfocused mentions, much of this is dependent on which school you transfer to.  In reality, though, it is rare that the school that turns out a good baseball fit also happens to be a school that matches up well with regard to maximum allowance of transfer classes.  Mine have had issues with transfer credits even with the most basic of general courses and within the same state JC and 4-yr school system.   Of course, this is somewhat offset by the reduced tuition.  But the student athlete still potentially loses a year of career earnings on the back end.

I think the 48 of 60 estimate is reasonable but there are many variables and it can definitely be worse.  Another factor comes into play for those that are focused more on baseball than academics and/or don't have a clear career path in mind or change course as so many do.  At some point, a student has to take x number of classes toward a declared major.  If the student changes his major along the way, there is further additional schooling and/or less transferable classes to factor in.

D-Mac I am going to address the point you raised in the second paragraph of your post. IMO, in terms of advancing a baseball career, there is much more value in going to a JuCo on scholarship and playing as opposed to walking on at a D1 and not playing.  Most JuCos are not interested in walk on cast offs. They are interested in scholarship guys that don’t work out at D1s for whatever reason. Any kid that walks away from a Juco scholarship to walk on at a D1 is almost always making a baseball mistake. 

Honest answer. No. D1s most likely won't recruit him even with a big velo jump. Barring some unforeseen draft changes it is not going to happen. And that is assuming he's good enough to head to a school where they have excess draft talent. The schools with draft talent usually have more guys coming in than money to dish out anyway. Plus they are full come November. 

Either way. You don't pass up D1 baseball for JUCO unless it is a money thing, a maturity thing, a grades thing, or a draft thing. Unless you're heading to San Jacinto, Chipola or the likes you're going to have better facilities at the D1s, better coaching, better competition and teammates, etc. 

As for the walk on transfer situation. I don't know if you mean preferred walk-ons (aka recruited with no money) or true show up to a tryout walk-on but there is a massive difference. I would assume a kid who is being recruited as a preferred walk on at a P5 school can very well get money at another D1 school. Still, 35 guys on the roster, 27 on scholarship. That leaves 8 spots and most are used up by in state guys who qualify academically for merit awards or heavily discounted tuition. I would also say that a kid who walks on to an SEC school and gets playing time really has no reason to leave. 

I don't know if this is a JUCO player dreaming or he is expected to be D1 caliber but don't forget that coaches also recruit based on projection. They probably never saw it to begin with or determined it was too much of a project. I think his best bet is going to a place where he will be a good fit. 

You really can’t generalize about JuCos. It is very much a regional thing. It seems that many assume that a decent high school player is good enough to play JuCo baseball. In some parts of the country (Sun Belt states in particular) that just isn’t true. The level of play in some areas is very good. The starters in good JuCo are stud ballplayers and regularly advance to good D1, D2, and NAIA programs. 

Dmac can you share some measurables both on the field and off?   All of my son's highschool teammates that went D1 committed the summer before their senior year.  All of the JUCO commits committed  winter/spring of their senior year and a few late into the spring season.....that is when the JUCOs would come and watch high school games.  My son was contacted by the JUCO he committed to after pitching at a PG tournament in ATL at the end of the summer before senior year.   He had D2 offers and a few D1s talking with him but he did not want to head off to Middle State U in the mountains of two states away to play D2 baseball (if it were me I would have in a heartbeat but he had no interest).  In my opinion.....kids who grow up in a big college P5 town are a little jaded when it comes to what they envision college to be like.  He grew up watching National championships in several sports, attending the games, tailgating since he was baby, etc.... In his mind it was either dream school down the street or trying plan B at the not too far away JUCO to maybe have a chance to play there in the future (or to become just a student at that school). 

adbono posted:

You really can’t generalize about JuCos. It is very much a regional thing. It seems that many assume that a decent high school player is good enough to play JuCo baseball. In some parts of the country (Sun Belt states in particular) that just isn’t true. The level of play in some areas is very good. The starters in good JuCo are stud ballplayers and regularly advance to good D1, D2, and NAIA programs. 

No doubt. Not denying that JUCO baseball is good in certain regions, but the facilities, coaching, and so on will almost always be better at D1s. More funding, larger student bodies, etc. 

That being said, there are still a ton of D1s in the area you're referencing. You would think one of them would have noticed at some point. Don't forget, ACC and SEC schools are being mentioned. Once you get passed that first tier of JUCO baseball it can do downhill real quick. I don't know if we're talking about the JC powers or if we're talking about the average one a few miles down the road. 

Good stuff so far, thanks for the replies.

PA, I am talking about a recruited walk on, not a kid that just shows up.  The new transfer portal has changed the recruiting game a bit.  As far as turning down D1's, what if your goal is play high D1 verses lower level D1?  Is that a bad reason to attend a Juco?  And I am genuinely asking because our heads are spinning. 

PABaseball posted:

adbono posted:

You really can’t generalize about JuCos. It is very much a regional thing. It seems that many assume that a decent high school player is good enough to play JuCo baseball. In some parts of the country (Sun Belt states in particular) that just isn’t true. The level of play in some areas is very good. The starters in good JuCo are stud ballplayers and regularly advance to good D1, D2, and NAIA programs. 

No doubt. Not denying that JUCO baseball is good in certain regions, but the facilities, coaching, and so on will almost always be better at D1s. More funding, larger student bodies, etc. 

That being said, there are still a ton of D1s in the area you're referencing. You would think one of them would have noticed at some point. Don't forget, ACC and SEC schools are being mentioned. Once you get passed that first tier of JUCO baseball it can do downhill real quick. I don't know if we're talking about the JC powers or if we're talking about the average one a few miles down the road. 

This is a Juco power with other options at top Juco's. 

OK, more info adds to the equation... 

Sounds like the kid may be projected as a late bloomer who is particularly projectable?  

IF, the JC is a power and IF the D1 preferred walk on comes with particular identification and specific dialog of patience with the kid as a late bloomer, I could see serious consideration to the D1 scenario... strong JC's are looking for guys who can contribute now.   I can see why the head spin... but a good problem.

cabbagedad posted:

OK, more info adds to the equation... 

Sounds like the kid may be projected as a late bloomer who is particularly projectable?  

IF, the JC is a power and IF the D1 preferred walk on comes with particular identification and specific dialog of patience with the kid as a late bloomer, I could see serious consideration to the D1 scenario... strong JC's are looking for guys who can contribute now.   I can see why the head spin... but a good problem.

6'5" pitcher that also plays QB.  Football has taken a lot of time away from baseball development.  The goal is to play high D1 baseball one day.  Being a preferred walk on at a high D1 with a redshirt year would be ideal, imo.  But, I don't know if that will be an option. 

"As far as turning down D1's, what if your goal is play high D1 verses lower level D1?  Is that a bad reason to attend a Juco?"

So the best way to answer this is to go to the roster history of the high D1 schools he prefers and sees what they have done in terms of adding Jucos to their roster.  The best D1 schools out west, UCLA and Oregon State, have few or no Juco players on their roster.  Even a lower tier school like LMU who gave UCLA a heck of a run in the regional only has two Jucos.  And SoCal has some of the best Juco players around to recruit from.  The D2 programs in the state are loaded with Jucos, and no doubt many of those players had dreams of D1. It is just hard to break into the high D1s from Juco.  Some make it to the lower tier of D1 but that does not sound like his goal. 

Not sure if it is the same with the SEC and ACC teams, but trying to break into the high D1 ranks through Juco is not a road that many kids have successfully navigated.  The roster history can tell you if there is much of a chance at his preferred schools.

d-mac posted:

cabbagedad posted:

OK, more info adds to the equation... 

Sounds like the kid may be projected as a late bloomer who is particularly projectable?  

IF, the JC is a power and IF the D1 preferred walk on comes with particular identification and specific dialog of patience with the kid as a late bloomer, I could see serious consideration to the D1 scenario... strong JC's are looking for guys who can contribute now.   I can see why the head spin... but a good problem.

6'5" pitcher that also plays QB.  Football has taken a lot of time away from baseball development.  The goal is to play high D1 baseball one day.  Being a preferred walk on at a high D1 with a redshirt year would be ideal, imo.  But, I don't know if that will be an option. 

IMO you are making a bad assumption in saying coaching would be better if he was a preferred walk on at a D1 vs being a scholarship guy at a power JuCo. Again, a little unfair to generalize but as a rule coaches focus on their scholarship guys. You don’t want a year that is wasted due to no coaching and no mound time at a D1. And that would be my prediction based on the limited info you have provided.  I will be very specific if you want to send me a PM with names of schools involved. 

adbono posted:

d-mac posted:

cabbagedad posted:

OK, more info adds to the equation... 

Sounds like the kid may be projected as a late bloomer who is particularly projectable?  

IF, the JC is a power and IF the D1 preferred walk on comes with particular identification and specific dialog of patience with the kid as a late bloomer, I could see serious consideration to the D1 scenario... strong JC's are looking for guys who can contribute now.   I can see why the head spin... but a good problem.

6'5" pitcher that also plays QB.  Football has taken a lot of time away from baseball development.  The goal is to play high D1 baseball one day.  Being a preferred walk on at a high D1 with a redshirt year would be ideal, imo.  But, I don't know if that will be an option. 

IMO you are making a bad assumption in saying coaching would be better if he was a preferred walk on at a D1 vs being a scholarship guy at a power JuCo. Again, a little unfair to generalize but as a rule coaches focus on their scholarship guys. You don’t want a year that is wasted due to no coaching and no mound time at a D1. And that would be my prediction based on the limited info you have provided.  I will be very specific if you want to send me a PM with names of schools involved. 

I’ve never said that on the coaching.  When I say ideal I mean in regards to getting an extra year to develop and not worrying about credits transferring.  One of the Juco’s has been adamant that they will develop players better because they get more time with the players.

I have said this before on this site and I stand by it : hardly any 18 year old freshman baseball players are ready (mentally, physically, or emotionally) to impact a decent D1 program.  They all think they are, and lots of parents think so too, but they are not.  You don’t get better sitting on a bench and not getting coached

MidAtlanticDad posted:

Back to Topic 1: If there's any doubt about the decision, I wouldn't think committing to a juco before January of senior year is a good idea. Juco D1 can award 24 full scholarships. Maybe you commit early to secure your deal if the school has limited funds? But, I've never seen a juco that couldn't find a scholarship for the stud who falls in their lap at the last minute. And to answer the question, D1s would treat him like any other high school senior who hasn't committed to an NCAA school.

 

A minor comment about Topic 2: Yes, most NCAA D1 transfers are now eligible to compete without sitting a year, but not at mid-year. You can't walk on to SEC/ACC in the fall, transfer to another D1 for the spring, and play that spring.

 

Regarding the difficult choices, do you think he'd benefit more next year from game action, or coaching and training? That might inform your decision.

 

Lastly, on losing credits while transferring, normally those juco credits will be much less expensive than 4-year college credits if that softens the blow at all.

Since he plays football, I don’t see how anything changes in the Fall.  It will be late February/March before he is pitching in games after this weekend. 

IMO, he would be better off training than game action.  He can pitch, he just needs more velocity. 

With credits it’s more about time than money.  At a 4 year with a redshirt year he could have his masters completed if everything worked out.  He will go into college with about 12 hours.  He’s almost a semester ahead right now and I don’t want him to come out of Juco a semester behind. 

On the 24 scholarships, we have learned that every school is different. Some don’t fund 24 and a lot of them have restrictions on what they can offer such as tuition books housing but no meal plan. Others give full rides plus a housing stipend to stay in nearby apartments.  I haven’t seen an offer that’s the same yet. 

Remember that the term "preferred walk-on" means only whatever that coaching staff wants it to mean.  At one university it might actually mean that a "preferred walk-on" is assured a spot on the 35-man roster. 

At another university, it might only mean that the athlete doesn't have to go through a "cattle call" type tryout to participate in Fall practices.  At a program such as Arkansas that typically has more than 40 games on the Fall roster, I wonder how many of them were told they were a "preferred walk-on?"