A couple of questions

On the balk the ump was wrong. In no case do you have to throw to second. As long as he makes a continuous spin he is fine to go either direction.
As for the tag up, you are correct, the PU has the tag. Depending on which direction the RF was diving he may or may not have the catch. Either way he still needs to watch the tag at third. Now, if the ball is near the line, he has Fair/foul, catch/no catch, and the tag at third. If anything gets missed it has to be the tag. If he doesn't see it he simply says he didn't so he is safe.
In no case does aking the wrong ump blow your appeal. Most coaches don't even know who's call it is so they can't be expected to have to guess which to ask. Dang, the ump didn't even know.

redbird5,

Michael accurately answered your questions above.

I would add that these rulings (balk call and tag coverage) issued by the umpires in this game are so far off the mark that I believe you need to contact the person/group who assigned them and discuss the matter; especially the umpire baiting you as you returned to the coaches box. ("You really blew that one, coach.") Unfortunately you took the bait and responded.

If someone in their association doesn't address this type of behavior and lack of rules knowledge with them the problem will continue.

quote:

Originally posted by pilsner:
redbird5,

Michael accurately answered your questions above.

I would add that these rulings (balk call and tag coverage) issued by the umpires in this game are so far off the mark that I believe you need to contact the person/group who assigned them and discuss the matter; especially the umpire baiting you as you returned to the coaches box. ("You really blew that one, coach.") Unfortunately you took the bait and responded.

If someone in their association doesn't address this type of behavior and lack of rules knowledge with them the problem will continue.

I thought the "bait" was a simple discussion. Prior to getting ejected, I didn't raise my voice to him. After getting tossed, I said what was on my mind with a loud voice.

Luckily, the tourney director was standing right there. After an ejection, coaches are to sit out the next game as well. The tourney director waived that and allowed me to coach this morning. He also apologized for the ump's action last night.

I also forgot to mention that the home plate umpire talked trash to me as I was walking to the parking lot.

I do not mind poor judgement, but not knowing the rules is inexcusable. Their association was notified this morning.

Wow! You probably (I hope) got a couple inexperienced, authorative figured rookies, that are probably just getting their feet wet with fall assignments. Notify assignor.

Correct, coach nor players do not need to go to the correct umpire. Nor should they try.
EX:
My partner and I had a onery coach, nothing bad enough to toss him, just one of those grumpy type coaches, that snips and quips all day. I'm BU in A, B hits a flare right down the RF line, I go out, fair and uncaught by inches, BR winds up on 2nd. BR now at 2nd requests time and gets it by HPU, who's right on top of the base. While time is out, D coach has a visit to the mound, as I'm sweeping off 2nd base and setting up in C, I see coach looking my way, and clearly giving directions to the pitcher and INF's. I'm thinking "sheesh coach, wish I could play some poker with you".

As play commences F1 steps off, turns to me and says "I'm appealing the BR missed 1B". Jogs over and tags now R2, I turn to my partner and state,loudly "appeal of BR missing 1B". He steps out from behind HP and signals loudly, "safe". I echo and signal his "safe call".

Coach instantly fly's out of the dugout, (only a 1/2 step I'll add to his credit), and says "that's not your call, you were in RF."

Ah, the silence was golden. We all just stared at him for a second or 2 or 5 or 10, until he realized that, he was the only one in attendence that didn't know what was going on. Priceless..

Yes, someone needs to know about this performance.

You say you'd forfeit if you had them again, well, do your team a favor and play on anyway.

Make notification to the assignor quickly, and in writing if possible.

Give your team the benefit. They can win regardless of a couple bad calls, which unfortunatley they may, some day, see again.

jjk,

I wish they were rookies. If so, they are getting a late start in life as they were both in their 50's.

This umpire was also trying to convince me that a fastball could hit the dirt between home and a properly positioned catcher and still be a strike on my 5-10" hitter. After I politely disagreed with him, he changed his tune to say the ball never hit the ground. At that point a player on the other team said "Yes, sir, it bounced. It doesn't help us either for him to call stuff like that."

Believe me...there were plenty of others. Neither of these guys new the rules...IMO, that is what they are paid for.

As for giving my team the benefit of the doubt, I have all the confidence in the world in my team. We will play anyone...anywhere. We have been very successful in our age group as well as playing up an age group. Always have...always will. That does not change because of a few bozos. My problem is that it absolutely detroys all of the teaching we do with regard to strike zone awareness, properly playing the game, etc.

quote:

This umpire was also trying to convince me that a fastball could hit the dirt between home and a properly positioned catcher and still be a strike

Wow = you had a bad day. I know you dont believe this now but you will laugh about this one day.

Redbird - You really got hosed this weekend.

Sorry to see that happen. But on both calls the umps truely blew them.

you were 'sweeping off 2B?"

Wow.....these guys take the cake....

no rules knowledge.
no mechanics knowledege
bad attitudes....

sounds like 3 strikes to me.....

quote:

you were 'sweeping off 2B?"

Well yeah, but only when it's dirty.

I'm a clean freak, any sliding play, sweep em off, at the end of a 1/2, hit the mound, or any bases you didn't get too. I get bored out there on the bases, keeps me moving too.
We have a running deal going within our association, BU cleans HP prior to plate conference, then say's, "that's all the help I'm giving you today"..

quote:

Originally posted by catcher09:

quote:

This umpire was also trying to convince me that a fastball could hit the dirt between home and a properly positioned catcher and still be a strike

Wow = you had a bad day. I know you dont believe this now but you will laugh about this one day.

I laughed about it that night. It wasn't personal...they were just incompetant.

Now that I think about it, I was laughing when he threw me out because then I could say what was really on my mind. I had some great one liners.

gee, I'd agree that the outcome was a little rough on ya Red, but -
when you coach/teach (as working on picks) I presume that you have an understanding of the rules that apply as you seem to - so after the botched calls & explanation, why not just pull the Fed rules or Case book out of your back pocket and politely point out their rules mis-application? esp with the tourny dir right there - even if they won't change a bad call on a mis-applied rule, maybe the rub will give em cause to study some

the balk call can be tricky tho, as they often will just say
"it's a balk coach - I'm not out here to give you a rules clinic",
but if you CAN get an explanation you have a shot

soon they'll be second guessing themselves every time you scratch your hip or adjust your belt


.

quote:

Originally posted by Bee>:
gee, I'd agree that the outcome was a little rough on ya Red, but -
when you coach/teach (as working on picks) I presume that you have an understanding of the rules that apply as you seem to - so after the botched calls & explanation, why not just pull the Fed rules or Case book out of your back pocket and politely point out their rules mis-application? esp with the tourny dir right there - even if they won't change a bad call on a mis-applied rule, maybe the rub will give em cause to study some


.

After he told me to learn the rules, I pulled out the rule book and politely asked which rule he was quoting. I was threatened with ejection. This was in the 2nd inning. I figured I could last a little bit longer. After that call, I sent one of my parents to get the site director. He showed up in the 6th inning. lol

quote:

I pulled out the rule book and politely asked which rule he was quoting.

I feel your pain, but you have more traction if you approach them with the page, rule# & section#

quote:

soon they'll be second guessing themselves every time you scratch your hip or adjust your belt

.

You don't have any 'traction' when you pull a rule book out while on the field. Almost always an automatic trip to the parking lot. There's almost no way to pull a rulebook on the field that does not show up the umpire (s), regardless of their incompetence (and I agree your umpires were incompetent).

You might get away with it if you research the issue in the dugout, and get the PU to come to the dugout on a pretext to 'discuss' it more-or-less out of view.

Otherwise, nuh-uh, see ya. Proper procedure is, if you are certain of your righteousness, is to formally protest the game (if its a rule application error) and move on with the game.

Redbird, I know you know the game, and I have umped several of your games in the past. But the fastest way to the parking lot is to bring out a rule book.

If it is a rules interpretation, and exspecailly in a tournament format. PROTEST. If it is a judgement call, you are going to have to live with it.

It just seems these guys were plain awful. I hope you were planning out-of-town.

We struck the hitter out so I didn't file a protest. I didn't push the issue and didn't question him publicly after I pulled out the rule book. It was done after the inning and he walked toward the 1B line. The only person who saw me with the rule book was my assistant coach.

JJK...

I can understand Lonblue's thoughts on your cleaning off 2nd base....

In the many associations, I have belonged to over the years, all of them actively discourage any base cleaning other than a passing kick to dislodge a mound of dirt....nor do you clean the pitching rubber either......and you most certainly do not carry a plate brush or wear a ball bag while on the bases....

All of those things are pretty universally considered taboo or screams "ROOKIE" and I am suprised your association allows it....I know that the old SAL league umpire who trained me said "you are the umpire, not the grounds crew".....

There is a list of do's and donts for base umpires...some practical and some traditional and some just old school..but cleaning the bases and pitching rubber is one of the ones most universally panned....

quote:

There's almost no way to pull a rulebook on the field that does not show up the umpire(s)

so how is a protest filed & resolved?? guess at the rule before the next pitch?
most tourny postest MUST be resolved right then & there


.

quote:

so how is a protest filed & resolved??

When you think a umpire has mis-applied a rule, call time and ask what his ruling is. If you don't agree explain your understanding of it. At that point you get to have a brief discusion on the merits. If you still don't agree then tell him you are protesting the game. He should get together with the other umps and try to solve it or stay with the call. He may even go to the book to solve the difference. If the orginal call stands then he marks the book and you finish the game. The protest committee will give you a ruling. The may involve replaying from the protest. In a tournament situation they may make the ruling on the spot.

quote:

Originally posted by Bee>:
[QUOTE] so how is a protest filed & resolved?? guess at the rule before the next pitch?
most tourny postest MUST be resolved right then & there.

Every tournament posts its protest procedure prior to the event. Since you correctly state that most must be resolved on the spot, then you know of this. So why the question?

I said, if its a rules application issue and the coach is SURE he is right, put the $$$ where the mouth is.....if you are 'guessing' at the rule, how can you be so sure the umpire is wrong?

Talk is cheap. Protests cost money, just to avoid frivolous-ness.

if guessing, keep your wallet in your pocket and play ball.

LonBlue67

I agree with you completely.

I have never thrown out a coach or player becasue I did not know the rule. I have have thrown out many a coach and player because they did not know the rule.

As far as Redbird's situation he had some bad umps.

quote:

if its a rules application issue and the coach is SURE he is right, put the $$$ where the mouth is..Talk is cheap

this ENTIRE thread discussed ONLY mis-applied rule(s)


fyi, a $50 bill is always tucked inside the front cover of "the book" - they come out together after time is out and the scorekeeper is notified

now - blue is stuck on the field while the game is delayed for 15 minutes or so being ridden hard by 1/2 the fans ... until the protest is upheld ... at which time the other 1/2 join in for the remainder of the game ... prolly a couple dogs barking too


gee, a quiet conference with the coach down the baseline re a rule may have been a better choice


.

gee, I better dig out my old book$$ ...
oops, I think my brother in law took em all - but surely he would have said something

.

quote:

My problem is that it absolutely detroys all of the teaching we do with regard to strike zone awareness, properly playing the game, etc.

Well don't let it. Take it for what it's worth,
a couple blown calls. When coaching or playing I always considered it just that, he blew it.
He needs to know, but he's not changing his pee mind, play on or: as mentioned above Protest his misapplication of the rule/s. Every tourny I've played, coached or umpired in, there's a protest process in place. You ask the TD and or UIC for a ruling, what ever it is, play on.

Perhaps you just don't come back to this venue.

That's why the importance of notifying the association, then you'll also know the outcome.
If they are agreeing with these two, you probably wanna, play some where,, make that, anywhere else.

Cleaning the bases! I wouldn't hesitate to clean a base nore a mound.
Certainly after a ground plowing slide at 2nd or 3rd, after several plays at 1st. I like white bases, fair fall calls just seem to stand out better. That nice cut of the runner off the inside corner I like to see that.. F3 cleat on the bag, not on a pile of dirt 3 inches away, that only the runner and base coach can see.
About the 4th inning, another slide into 2nd now has the side facing second 2 inches off the ground, nah, sorry, not in my pasture..
I don't like kicking at em, messes up my shoes..and I think it makes one look lazy, like ya can't bend over. Just don't like it, especially kicking at the plate, aaah!

First time I see a pitcher on the mound, I like to see contrast between feet and mound. Even been known to check a ball now and then.

I carry the broom hidden in my back pocket right under my sweat rag. I really can't remember an umpire NOT sweeping the bags nor the mound. I'll certainly watch closer now, and ask some of the ole veterans around here. Maybe it's a NW thing, ya don't want dirt on anything cause, it'll most likely be turning to mud any minute.
I agree; do what your association does, I'd just hope, they didn't fine/fire me.

OBR and all disciplines:
1.05
Home base shall be marked by a five-sided slab of whitened rubber.

1.06
First, second and third bases shall be marked by white canvas bags,

1.07
The pitcher’s plate shall be a rectangular slab of whitened rubber,

Do as you like. In my association they would laugh you right off the field if you took a broom to the bases. I'll make a note not to ever try to work games in the NW, then.

Just screams, "lil boy ball" to everyone in sight.

JMO.

Bee-

You better hope you protest before you bring out the rule book. If not, you are going to have to hand over your 50 bucks to a coach, because your are "outta here!"

quote:

you are going to have to hand over your 50 bucks to a coach, because your are "outta here!"

P-fan ... I've had quiet discussions with guys like M Taylor, and - left others (like you aparently) whose method was to intimidate and threaten out in the hot sun wiping egg off their face ... I've only been ejected twice in 12 yrs .. * once at my request (hey I got no beef - but toss me or I'll give ya reason too []), the other I went out to get tossed (had a beef) - - both had the intended effect .. come from behind victories

of the 4-5 protests, never lost a fee



.

I thought I would put me two cents in about base cleaning. We don't do it here either. My personal exception is I kick off first base before every inning. It's my personal superstition. Whever I don't something blows up. For the bases getting covered on slides, I simply tell the runner to give me the bag back. I let him clean it. He got it dirty so he gets to clean it off.
On the other hand every softball umpire I know cleans bases and pitching plates on a regular basis. I TD many softball tournaments and see it all the time.

"Just screams, "lil boy ball" to everyone in sight."

IMO
I think it's only umpires that would even give it a second thought. And I could really care less what anybody but, the customer thinks.

I've heard "thanks blue" many more times..than "can you believe that bozo's wiping bags, and look, look, he's got a brush."

I carry the razor thin base brush (that's what I call it) about as thick as a comb, plastic, very fine brushes, and brace yourselves, it's got the mud squeegee on one end...

Please, please, don't try this alone.

quote:

On the other hand every softball umpire I know cleans bases and pitching plates on a regular basis. I TD many softball tournaments and see it all the time.

Couldn't have said it better myself. Thanks.


As I said, you should do what you feel is appropriate for your customers, level of ball, what gets you that "Thanks, Blue", and so on and so forth.

quote:

I think it's only umpires that would even give it a second thought. And I could really care less what anybody but, the customer thinks.

I guess this is where we would have to respectfully agree to disagree...

For those of us who work in levels of baseball where your advancement into higher baseball or assignment to post season play involves being evaluated these types of things are critical....

In an Umpires evaluation and eventual ranking the doing the things that impress your "customer" could possibly knock you down the list for advancement or post season play....

Evaluations of your mechanics, dress, deportment and game management many times hinge on the accepted norms that are set by Umpires and not coaches, players or fans...

now, we do agree on the fact that you should do whatever it is that your association requires or allows....

Just my .02....

quote:

Evaluations of your mechanics, dress, deportment and game management many times hinge on the accepted norms that are set by Umpires and not coaches, players or fans...

Whew, I can still be saved then.

Hey, thanks for the candor on the matter. And I'll admit, I like the idea,("give me the base") and will try it out.

As a former player and current coach, I now see why many umpires are viewed the way they are.

Not only do many of you think you know the rules better than anyone else, you think you are better than anyone else. To belittle a fellow umpire because he brushes off the bases is rediculous.

Coaches, parents, volunteers and players all work very hard to make their parks safe, playable and appealing. I have seen bases become so dirty you could not see them from the dugout, so I would be very appreciative for an ump to care about the game enough to keep the bases clean. Seems like most of you could care less about that.And to tell a player to hand you the bag because he got it dirty, unbelievable. I hope I don't get you for any of my games.

As a coach who was "run" for asking the ump to clean off the plate after a play at the plate, I have absolutely no time or patience for such arrogance!

And if you ALL knew ALL of the rules, there would be no need to bring a rule book onto the field. Again, arrogance and a misplaced feeling of superiority ALWAYS creates issues. You are there to officiate. Just like the players who show too many of the hotdog antics from watching Sportscenter, today's amateur umpires think they will get "better evaluation and eventual ranking the doing the things that impress your "customer" could possibly knock you down the list for advancement or post season play...." by imitating the MLB "chip on the shoulder," "trying to be the show" schlocks in blue/gray.

Goldglove, you said:
Not only do many of you think you know the rules better than anyone else, you think you are better than anyone else. To belittle a fellow umpire because he brushes off the bases is rediculous.
There are several on this list that feel they know the rules better than most because we study and discuss rules all the time. PIAA and I are both instructors and rules interpreters for our areas. Plus there are others that spend quite a bit of their time making sure they know the rules very well. I DID NOT belittle him for doing brushing bases. I did say most upper level guys don't but to do what his area does normally.

Coaches, parents, volunteers and players all work very hard to make their parks safe, playable and appealing. I have seen bases become so dirty you could not see them from the dugout, so I would be very appreciative for an ump to care about the game enough to keep the bases clean. Seems like most of you could care less about that.And to tell a player to hand you the bag because he got it dirty, unbelievable. I hope I don't get you for any of my games.
I don't think we are doing anything wrong in having the runner clean the base. I never had a player or coach question the practice. I do it from LL to D1 NCAA and semi-pro. I also like clean bases, it makes it easier to call touches and slides but I get the runner to do it. The term is "Give me the bag." It means make it so I can see it.

As a coach who was "run" for asking the ump to clean off the plate after a play at the plate, I have absolutely no time or patience for such arrogance!
I don't know the circumstances but I suspect there is more to the story and I would love to hear it. It is quite possible the ump was wrong but it's also very likely you may have been a contibuting factor.

And if you ALL knew ALL of the rules, there would be no need to bring a rule book onto the field. Again, arrogance and a misplaced feeling of superiority ALWAYS creates issues. You are there to officiate. Just like the players who show too many of the hotdog antics from watching Sportscenter, today's amateur umpires think they will get "better evaluation and eventual ranking the doing the things that impress your "customer" could possibly knock you down the list for advancement or post season play...." by imitating the MLB "chip on the shoulder," "trying to be the show" schlocks in blue/gray
I think the chip problem may be on your shoulder as well. As an umpire we will toss a coach who tries to show us up. Coming out and questioning a rule interp is fine. Then if we can't agree then protest. Coming out of the dugout yelling and/or waving a rulebook will get you gone in most leagues. I don't think most guys on this board are the type of ump you discribe. In general you seem to have a very jaded veiw of officials which may cause you to bring the bad side out of many blues.
I am a very experienced and approachable umpire. I also am very even keeled on the boards.I don't go out of my way to create problems but I will take care of business if needed.

MST-Very fair responses. I agree with you on 98% of what you say. Sometimes there can also be a number of ways to interpret what is being written on this board. I have been playing from LL to DII to Amateur ball and coached 8-22 year olds and I have never seen nor heard "give me the bag." Doesn't mean it isn't there, I just have never heard of it. I was just amazed at umpires calling each other "rookies and softball umpires" because of bagcleaning.

I understand not wanting to show up an ump, but when they do not know the rules...well not just throw away the rule book if they refuse to look at it. JOMO. And running on the field waving it does deserve the thumb.

The story of being run...play at the plate, no cleaning of the plate. Up until this time I thought he was doing fine, close game, no controversy. After 1 pitch, I ask the ump to clean the plate. He ignores me. I ask again, nothing. I tell my catcher, (12 yrs old.) to clean the plate. "If he touches the plate, he is out of here" were HPU's exact words. I call time out, he will not give it to me. I ask a parent to get the TD. (Loud enough for him to hear me) He tells me if I say one more word I am gone. The TD comes and I speak to him and he asks HPU to clean the plate and he still will not do it. Next the UIC is called over and he discusses it with the HPU. Finally the HPU cleans the plate. I say thank you from the dugout and ....you got it....gone.

I learned long ago from an ump who called games back in the old Triple I league. "Treat the coaches and players the way you want to be treated." I use the same philosophy with umpires. It's when they show the chip, are arrogant, that I tend to lose my cool.

This will be my first year watching and not coaching in a long time. I am looking forward to the break. But I know i will miss the action!

Umpires are just like coaches and players... Some are better than others!

When it comes to the rules, I've always been very disappointed with an umpire who doesn't know the rules better than I do.

The rules can not cover every conceivable play that could happen. Is that a true statement?

quote:

The story of being run...play at the plate, no cleaning of the plate. Up until this time I thought he was doing fine, close game, no controversy. After 1 pitch, I ask the ump to clean the plate. He ignores me. I ask again, nothing. I tell my catcher, (12 yrs old.) to clean the plate. "If he touches the plate, he is out of here" were HPU's exact words. I call time out, he will not give it to me. I ask a parent to get the TD. (Loud enough for him to hear me) He tells me if I say one more word I am gone. The TD comes and I speak to him and he asks HPU to clean the plate and he still will not do it. Next the UIC is called over and he discusses it with the HPU. Finally the HPU cleans the plate. I say thank you from the dugout and ....you got it....gone.

This sounds like a guy that has no business umpiring. Anytime you hear an ump say "Not another word" you can tell he is either untrained or trying to throw his weight around. Either way he needs not be out there.
I used to work with a guy in youth ball that was horrible. He said many times that he hated baseball but loved to umpire. This was his way of saying he just wanted to be the man in charge and order others around. You could see it in the way he made calls and handled coaches. He got booted from several leagues for making problems and he finally got the hint and quit.
I would run a coach for pulling a book on me in most cases, not all. However, I have no problem with him questioning a rule interp. I will explain it to him breifly. If we can't agree I will ask if would like to protest. I teach in my clinics to both umps and coaches that there is no problem with a protest. Take it, mark the book and get the game going. When the protest committee makes their ruling somebody is going to learn something. Either the calling ump or the coach. Somebody is coming away with new knowledge.
I have enjoyed the discussion. I think we aren't that far apart, just looking at it from different sides of the equation.

I use to hire the Umpires assoc. for more than a few years at our locsl league and if we hosted tourney's. The best umpires are the ones no one notices. I was fortunate to have a umpire in one assoc that had made it to the MLB. Why he wasn't still there wasn't my business, but he lived in town and joined a umpires assoc. He was by far the best that I have seen. Both coaching (20 years) and supervising. He handled a game very professionally and had very few problems. He wasn't on a power trip and had the respect of all coaches, mostly because he respected the game. Don't get me wrong it is the umpires field, but if a ump shows a little respect they will ten times that. Things he said early on are things I have told fellow coaches that coached for me or that were taking teams. Learn your umpires names, everyone introduces themselve at the plate meeting. Have the courtesy to listen to their name. When addressing them call them by their name as opposed to blue. Wait for them to give you time out before you come out on the field . Talk don't yell, if you address without trying to show him up you will get much more cooperation. Let them ask for the book, or let them tell you to show them. I never pulled a book out on a ump, it's the coaches job to know the rule. However it just shows insecurity when someone throws you out for presenting a book with the rule marked. It is my belief everyone wants the call to be correct. Once again it's not about the coach or the ump its about getting the rule correct. That's as bad as a ump that wont ask for help from his fellow ump on a close or questionable play. I know there are umpires who think they are bigger than the game and they no longer belong in the game. The best ump is the who goes un noticed.
Just a question: sometimes a charge is applied to protest. If the coach wins the protest and the game is continued another day should it be fair the same umpires do the continued game free as I am sure they were paid in full the first time.