Have you guys noticed that when R1 is stealing second without a take sign, even your best batters are more likely to be tentative--laying off pitches they ordinarily would swing at, or putting less than their best swing on the ball?
Original Post
Replies sorted oldest to newest
I have not, because for us, if the batter wants to swing, it just turns into a Hit & Run. If I want the bag stolen and don't want the batter to swing, we will give the take sign. Very good question.
Nicholas25,
I'm thinking you meant to say it turns into a run-and-hit. Same with us--the batter in this situation is, in theory, oblivious of the baserunner.
My point is, when a batter hears "GOING!" and detects the runner breaking out of the corner of his eye, it can unintentionally alter the batter's normal reaction when things happen at the plate less than a second later.
Not saying it SHOULD happen. Just saying it does (often) happen. Can't prove it. It's an observation that dawned on me gradually over a number of years.
I'm thinking you meant to say it turns into a run-and-hit. Same with us--the batter in this situation is, in theory, oblivious of the baserunner.
My point is, when a batter hears "GOING!" and detects the runner breaking out of the corner of his eye, it can unintentionally alter the batter's normal reaction when things happen at the plate less than a second later.
Not saying it SHOULD happen. Just saying it does (often) happen. Can't prove it. It's an observation that dawned on me gradually over a number of years.
I'm sure I'm not going to say this nicely enough, but here goes. If this is a problem for your "best" batters you have bigger problems on your team than the 'run and hit'. Your best batters should have the greatest discipline and concentration skills. With a runner on they would be looking to advance the runner any chance they can, unless the coach has given a take sign, in which case they will just be sitting back. I think you would be better off working on the 'advance the runner' concept and coach them to bear down during such situations and in fact practice the "going" shout during BP.
I found something in the archives from CoachB25 a few years back--
"While we work on the hit and run, we are not big proponents of it. We'd rather run and hit. In this scenerio, the hitter hits! The runner is stealing. We count on our speed assuring us of a successful steal and we allow the batter to hit strikes. Why then give this signal? Often, when runners steal, the batter is tentative and won't swing. We are very aggressive. We are telling the hitter, we don't care if that runner has a stolen base, HIT THE BALL! It removes any second guessing on their part and puts the "blame" on us. BTW, we also work on this during BP."
Did I read this right? Have a separate run-and-hit
sign so the batter gets in an aggressive state of mind (on strikes) ? I could be talked into that.
CoachB25: When you flash run-and-hit, is your goal that your hitter be more aggressive than usual on strikes, or just maintain his usual hitting approach (that is, don't be tentative)?
"While we work on the hit and run, we are not big proponents of it. We'd rather run and hit. In this scenerio, the hitter hits! The runner is stealing. We count on our speed assuring us of a successful steal and we allow the batter to hit strikes. Why then give this signal? Often, when runners steal, the batter is tentative and won't swing. We are very aggressive. We are telling the hitter, we don't care if that runner has a stolen base, HIT THE BALL! It removes any second guessing on their part and puts the "blame" on us. BTW, we also work on this during BP."
Did I read this right? Have a separate run-and-hit
sign so the batter gets in an aggressive state of mind (on strikes) ? I could be talked into that.
CoachB25: When you flash run-and-hit, is your goal that your hitter be more aggressive than usual on strikes, or just maintain his usual hitting approach (that is, don't be tentative)?
quote:Originally posted by RedSoxFan21:
I'm sure I'm not going to say this nicely enough, but here goes. If this is a problem for your "best" batters you have bigger problems on your team than the 'run and hit'. Your best batters should have the greatest discipline and concentration skills.
And pitchers SHOULD keep the ball down. Etc.
Even at the MLB level, it's recognized that an itchy basestealer can impair the concentration of the batter at the plate--separate and irrespective of him being asked to take a pitch.
freddy77, I meant hit and run in regards to how the runner plays it. He was given the steal sign, but must find the baseball when he hears the crack of the bat. I do understand however, what you mean by run and hit.
I haven't seen that but I have always taught my hitters to look for a pitch in a zone when the runner is stealing. If my runner gets a HUGE jump, my on deck hitter will yell "TAKE TAKE TAKE". If that occurs, we will take a pitch to get the easy SB.
Freddy, what we are doing is telling each that they are on their own. Our hitters knows the counts, the tendencies of the pitcher/program we are playing and knows that the runner is stealing. Each does their job. On the hit and run, the hitter has to swing no matter what. On the run and hit, the hitter doesn't have to swing.
Freddy, thanks for dredging that old quote up. I must have known something at one point in my coaching caree because I thought that sounded good. LOL!
Freddy, thanks for dredging that old quote up. I must have known something at one point in my coaching caree because I thought that sounded good. LOL!
Guys,
Most premium ML base stealers run on their own. If you are hitting behind a base stealer( i.e Pierre, Reyes, Crawford, etc.) you have to be willing to take pitches early in the count to allow them to run. If you happen to be a middle of the line up run producer, the ground rules may be such that you will swing at balls that you can elevate the ball in the gaps( hanging breaking balls & fastballs in your hard contact zone).The manager will set the guidelines before the fact to put you in a run & hit environment.The goal here is to produce an extra base hit in order to score the runner.
For me the hit an run is used with no outs & is basically an aggressive sacrifice. You are asking the batter to hit the ball on the ground out of the middle. It is a waste of an out when you have a + runner(75% or better success rate stealing) running, especially with no outs. Use the out to advance the runner from 2nd to 3rd with no outs.
When you are stealing & have predetermined that the hitter will be taking, start the hitter deeper in the box to push the catcher back.Two other technique will also help your base stealer by keeping the catcher back. #1 If the hitter is deep in the box & on the plate & shows bunt ( on the later side), carries his back elbow higher(parallel to the ground) & tries to cover the ball with his bat until the last second,the ball will jump up on the catcher & reduce his ability to get early momentum. #2 A check swing & draging the bat back towards the catcher without interfering will acccomplish much the same thing as the bunt "shade. When the bat starts forward, the catcher starts momentum into the pitch.When the bats starts back, the catcher has to stop his momentum which negatively affect his throwing rhythm.This must be practiced so that you do not get called for interference.
JW
Most premium ML base stealers run on their own. If you are hitting behind a base stealer( i.e Pierre, Reyes, Crawford, etc.) you have to be willing to take pitches early in the count to allow them to run. If you happen to be a middle of the line up run producer, the ground rules may be such that you will swing at balls that you can elevate the ball in the gaps( hanging breaking balls & fastballs in your hard contact zone).The manager will set the guidelines before the fact to put you in a run & hit environment.The goal here is to produce an extra base hit in order to score the runner.
For me the hit an run is used with no outs & is basically an aggressive sacrifice. You are asking the batter to hit the ball on the ground out of the middle. It is a waste of an out when you have a + runner(75% or better success rate stealing) running, especially with no outs. Use the out to advance the runner from 2nd to 3rd with no outs.
When you are stealing & have predetermined that the hitter will be taking, start the hitter deeper in the box to push the catcher back.Two other technique will also help your base stealer by keeping the catcher back. #1 If the hitter is deep in the box & on the plate & shows bunt ( on the later side), carries his back elbow higher(parallel to the ground) & tries to cover the ball with his bat until the last second,the ball will jump up on the catcher & reduce his ability to get early momentum. #2 A check swing & draging the bat back towards the catcher without interfering will acccomplish much the same thing as the bunt "shade. When the bat starts forward, the catcher starts momentum into the pitch.When the bats starts back, the catcher has to stop his momentum which negatively affect his throwing rhythm.This must be practiced so that you do not get called for interference.
JW
I do not look at a Hit & Run as an aggressive sactifice. I am looking to go from 1st to 3rd or score from 1st. An advantage is the fact that it often breaks up the double play and gives you more holes in the infield. I compare it to a fastbreak in basketball or a hurry up offense in football. It's a gamble, but it's one we enjoy taking with the right hitter and runner combination.
My mindset is that H and R is an aggressive sacrifice.
That mindset guides my decision-making regarding when to call for it, and when I do call for it, that mindset "manages my expectations" regarding its degree of success.
In my pessimistic moments, I'd define H and R "requiring a runner with average footspeed to attempt stealing second with a bad jump with the hope that the batter doesn't swing through the pitch or double him up with a bloop popfly, etc."
That mindset guides my decision-making regarding when to call for it, and when I do call for it, that mindset "manages my expectations" regarding its degree of success.
In my pessimistic moments, I'd define H and R "requiring a runner with average footspeed to attempt stealing second with a bad jump with the hope that the batter doesn't swing through the pitch or double him up with a bloop popfly, etc."
Freddy, you are actually getting at something real important not only to baserunning and hitting but on playing all aspects of the game. When you write about a pesimistic player or thought process, personally, I can't stand that. When I commented on run and hit, as a hitter, you don't have to hit but you had darn well better not take a strike. In coaching, I believe that you have to practice any skill you expect your players to demonstrate on the field. So, for me, I played aggressive players. Don't you think that players take on the personality of the coach? I do! I had one young man that just was timid but had so much ability. I took him to the side one time and told him that he was driving me crazy. I asked him hom many times I "yelled" at someone who failed when being aggressive. The answer was never. Then, I told him to change or lose his position. Thank goodness he believed that I would support him in failure if aggressive and so he changed. Freddy, there is some good stuff here in this thread by posters.
quote:Originally posted by CoachB25:
Freddy, you are actually getting at something real important not only to baserunning and hitting but on playing all aspects of the game. When you write about a pesimistic player or thought process, personally, I can't stand that. When I commented on run and hit, as a hitter, you don't have to hit but you had darn well better not take a strike. In coaching, I believe that you have to practice any skill you expect your players to demonstrate on the field. So, for me, I played aggressive players. Don't you think that players take on the personality of the coach? I do! I had one young man that just was timid but had so much ability. I took him to the side one time and told him that he was driving me crazy. I asked him hom many times I "yelled" at someone who failed when being aggressive. The answer was never. Then, I told him to change or lose his position. Thank goodness he believed that I would support him in failure if aggressive and so he changed. Freddy, there is some good stuff here in this thread by posters.
B25,
Possibly, my reservations about the risk/reward of H and R are giving you a totally wrong impression about my temperament and approach as a baseball coach. Externally to my players, I'm irrepressibly positive and optimistic (while stubbornly demanding HARD WORK). Internally, my decision-making in the 3B coaching box is tempered by realism.
YES, players take on the personality of the coach! Pardon my bragging, but that's a main reason I've successfully coached more Cinderella teams than anybody around here.
There is some good stuff in this thread, no doubt.
Regarding hit-and-run: In recent years, I've moved away from instructing "never get picked off on a H and R" because obedient players therefore often err on the side of taking too short a lead and getting an overly delayed jump.
I now instruct that R1's mindset should be to get a normal (for that R1) stealing lead and a normal jump. Pickoffs are rare, whereas batters swinging through a pitch are not rare, and I'd prefer that my average-speed R1 has a prayer of copping the bag if that batter doesn't make contact.
The exception to the above is in a first-and-third H and R, where my R1 has to see full committment to the plate to avoid being picked on a 3-1 move.
Feddy, not at all. In fact, I got your point. I think I worded my compliment wrong. I think this is a great topic to be discussed and was attempting to say that this is a great thread. 
I've always felt there are 3 components to a H&R:
1) At least an average runner at 1B
2) A pitcher who is around the plate
3) A hitter who can handle the bat
If I don't have these 3 things, the H&R is usually ineffective.
1) At least an average runner at 1B
2) A pitcher who is around the plate
3) A hitter who can handle the bat
If I don't have these 3 things, the H&R is usually ineffective.
The hit and run is an aggressive move. It should taken with the mindset of your players as an aggressive move. The goal of a hit and run is not to move a runner to second base its to move a runner from first to third. If I simply want to move a runner from first to second I will sac. If I want to aggressively move a runner from first to second I will drag or straight steal.
I am not a huge fan of the hit and run because I believe there are more things that can go wrong than can go right. So if I use it its because I have the right guy on first and more importantly the right guy at the plate. And the quality of the pitcher / how he is performing that day / score / inning / etc / will all come into play.
Its an aggressive play and one that can lead to a big inning or a blown inning. A first and third for you or a double play. But the runner on first on a hit and run is going to third unless he is stopped. Second base is not the goal if it was just sac him over or straight steal.
I am not a huge fan of the hit and run because I believe there are more things that can go wrong than can go right. So if I use it its because I have the right guy on first and more importantly the right guy at the plate. And the quality of the pitcher / how he is performing that day / score / inning / etc / will all come into play.
Its an aggressive play and one that can lead to a big inning or a blown inning. A first and third for you or a double play. But the runner on first on a hit and run is going to third unless he is stopped. Second base is not the goal if it was just sac him over or straight steal.
Dang, Coach_May, didn't I say pretty much the same thing in my post above. 
Great job, Coach.
Great job, Coach.
I have a bad habit of not reading all the posts above when I post. If you said pretty much the same thing I did then I guess we pretty much feel the same way.
I agree ..good topic.
Lots of things to consider. R1's speed. Does my hitter fit the hit and run profile. Count and am I likely to get a fb middle /away. I guess thats why I don't do it much.
Lots of things to consider. R1's speed. Does my hitter fit the hit and run profile. Count and am I likely to get a fb middle /away. I guess thats why I don't do it much.
The most important thing as a coach is knowing your personnel. Don't ask a plowmule to win the Kentucky Derby and don't ask a thoroughbred to pull a plow. Sometimes you have fast guys that are terrible baserunners and average speed guys who are great baserunners. At the HS level and under, I like to steal and hit-and-run every inning. Put pressure on the other team to get you out (like nonstop blitzing in football). I think most teams/defense will crack due to the pressure. Even the good ones will eventually crack. My belief is kinda like Sciossia's with the Angels, we're going to put pressure on you from every angle, every inning, almost every at-bat. If you stop us, you might win. Just because you stop us in the first couple innings doesn't mean you will stop us in the last couple innings. Just my philosophy.
