Quick observation on what I saw in last night's WS game. Last batter of the game - Holliday. Feliz pitching to him. Runners on 1st and 2nd, 3-2 count. Holliday fouled off several 2 strike pitches. Feliz NEVER threw to the middle of the plate. Every pitch was on the outside part of the plate or off the plate. Holliday was protecting, so Feliz got away with a couple of pitches that would have walked Holliday, but he never challenged Holliday with a FB down the middle. I guess Texas felt it was better to walk Holliday and load the bases than give up a big hit to him by throwing down the middle. Just an observation.
Hate to put you on the spot Fred, but I never miss an opportunity to learn something. Please don’t mention names or even teams or conferences, but would you say that every college program from the biggest DI’s to the smallest JUCO’s have coaches who understand what you’re trying to get across here? Then please go one step further and estimate the percentage of HS programs that have someone coaching pitchers who fully grasp what you’re saying.
My point is, just from the little bit I’ve seen you post, you’re far far above what I see the average college player, and for sure HS player getting for a coach. The way you conceptualize the act of pitching is much more like some grizzled old **** like Dave Duncan or Leo Mazzone, than the run-of-the-mill coaches young players today are exposed to.
My point is, just from the little bit I’ve seen you post, you’re far far above what I see the average college player, and for sure HS player getting for a coach. The way you conceptualize the act of pitching is much more like some grizzled old **** like Dave Duncan or Leo Mazzone, than the run-of-the-mill coaches young players today are exposed to.
quote:Originally posted by bballman:
Quick observation on what I saw in last night's WS game. Last batter of the game - Holliday. Feliz pitching to him. Runners on 1st and 2nd, 3-2 count. Holliday fouled off several 2 strike pitches. Feliz NEVER threw to the middle of the plate. Every pitch was on the outside part of the plate or off the plate. Holliday was protecting, so Feliz got away with a couple of pitches that would have walked Holliday, but he never challenged Holliday with a FB down the middle. I guess Texas felt it was better to walk Holliday and load the bases than give up a big hit to him by throwing down the middle. Just an observation.
That is crazy talk. A 3-run homer in that situation is the exact same as a walk. The Rangers were up 4.
quote:Originally posted by bballman:
Quick observation on what I saw in last night's WS game. Last batter of the game - Holliday. Feliz pitching to him. Runners on 1st and 2nd, 3-2 count. Holliday fouled off several 2 strike pitches. Feliz NEVER threw to the middle of the plate. Every pitch was on the outside part of the plate or off the plate. Holliday was protecting, so Feliz got away with a couple of pitches that would have walked Holliday, but he never challenged Holliday with a FB down the middle. I guess Texas felt it was better to walk Holliday and load the bases than give up a big hit to him by throwing down the middle. Just an observation.
Either that, or that try as he might, Feliz couldn’t throw a ball down the middle if he tried? As far as I know, he’s not know for his high degree of accuracy.
Well, he sure did a good job of living right on the outside edge of the plate for around 5 or so pitches. If his command was that bad, I think he would have put one over the middle or enough outside to walk Holliday. I thought it was pretty impressive and really made me think about this thread as I watched him stay outside all that time. Also, the catcher set up outside on every pitch. Never in the 3-2 count series did I see the catcher set up down the middle. Outside corner every pitch.
Like I said, just food for thought.
Like I said, just food for thought.
quote:Originally posted by realteamcoach:quote:Originally posted by bballman:
Quick observation on what I saw in last night's WS game. Last batter of the game - Holliday. Feliz pitching to him. Runners on 1st and 2nd, 3-2 count. Holliday fouled off several 2 strike pitches. Feliz NEVER threw to the middle of the plate. Every pitch was on the outside part of the plate or off the plate. Holliday was protecting, so Feliz got away with a couple of pitches that would have walked Holliday, but he never challenged Holliday with a FB down the middle. I guess Texas felt it was better to walk Holliday and load the bases than give up a big hit to him by throwing down the middle. Just an observation.
That is crazy talk. A 3-run homer in that situation is the exact same as a walk. The Rangers were up 4.
Not really, a 3 run homer makes it a 1 run game. A walk keeps it a 4 run game with bases loaded and another oportunity to get the one out they need with the next guy - Berkman.
Personally, I would rather have bases loaded with 2 outs and a 4 run lead with the opportunity to get the last out than a 1 run game with 2 outs. Obviously, the Rangers felt the same way.
quote:Originally posted by bballman:
Well, he sure did a good job of living right on the outside edge of the plate for around 5 or so pitches. If his command was that bad, I think he would have put one over the middle or enough outside to walk Holliday. I thought it was pretty impressive and really made me think about this thread as I watched him stay outside all that time. Also, the catcher set up outside on every pitch. Never in the 3-2 count series did I see the catcher set up down the middle. Outside corner every pitch.
Like I said, just food for thought.
Oh, its interesting as all get out, and I think its great that more people are actually looking at these things rather than just putting out standard clichés or what other people THINK has happened. And really, its all in one’s perspective. I’ve watched Feliz pitch all through the playoffs, and to me the guy is wild as Hell. Not for a hard thrower, but for a “pitcher”.
But when you job is to get 3 guys out and hold a lead, you can afford to go 110%, because you don’t need anything in the tank for next inning, so “style” has a lot to do with it. Chamberlin for the Yankees is a good example of the same thing. When they made him a starter, he just couldn’t dial it back so he could stay consistently effective for more than a few innings.
One of the things I’m having my program do that I find interesting, is tell me whether the strikes and balls are being thrown when the count is even, or when the pitcher is ahead or behind. I don’t know for sure yet, but it sure looks like it’s a better indication of how a pitcher’s doing than either strike or 1st pitch strike percentage. But, it looks as though those kinds of analysis will only work well for starters, or when comparing a lot of closers, not the just 1 or two I can do right now. IOW, in order for the analysis, what the pitcher’s job is has a lot to do with it.
But its all good with me because we’re playin’ with numbers!
quote:Originally posted by Stats4Gnats:
...
But when you job is to get 3 guys out and hold a lead, you can afford to go 110%, because you don’t need anything in the tank for next inning, so “style” has a lot to do with it.
...
IOW, in order for the analysis, what the pitcher’s job is has a lot to do with it.
These two statements could have a lot to do with everything. A lot of strategy depends on the situation, the pitcher, the batter, the score, runners on base, who's up next, etc...
This has been brought up, I believe by Fred when he talked about having his power pitcher on the mound with a weak hitter up. This translates into more FB's down the middle. Maybe in this particular circumstance, Feliz was in a position where command was more important than blazing stuff (or going 110% as you put it). I haven't followed the Rangers all season, so I'm not that familiar with Feliz. However, maybe his command is better than he lets on when he comes in in the 9th with no one on and no outs. Maybe in that case, he is just going 110% with not as much concern about pinpoint command. Maybe in this particular situation, keeping Holliday from hitting a 3 run HR was more important, so he toned it down a little and commanded the pitches he was throwing.
I know you're a numbers guy stats, but perhaps the numbers don't always tell the whole story. Perhaps there are situations that dictate the numbers or make it hard to acurately analyze the numbers because the situation dictates something that the numbers had not indicated from previous outings or situations.
I don't know. Starting to sound like gobble-dee-gook. Hopefully you get what I'm saying.
quote:Originally posted by Stats4Gnats:
Hate to put you on the spot Fred, but I never miss an opportunity to learn something. Please don’t mention names or even teams or conferences, but would you say that every college program from the biggest DI’s to the smallest JUCO’s have coaches who understand what you’re trying to get across here? Then please go one step further and estimate the percentage of HS programs that have someone coaching pitchers who fully grasp what you’re saying.
My point is, just from the little bit I’ve seen you post, you’re far far above what I see the average college player, and for sure HS player getting for a coach. The way you conceptualize the act of pitching is much more like some grizzled old **** like Dave Duncan or Leo Mazzone, than the run-of-the-mill coaches young players today are exposed to.
I am not always in agreement with your replies but I have to admit I agree with the above.
All I know is that I asked a few simple questions and I never got answers, and the stuff that was posted, well, this is a website for parents, players and mostly HS coaches and I respect those that keep it simple. That would be best when someone is posting to That's why I like Jerry Weinstein, Jerry Ford, Coach May, professionals (in one capacity or another in the game) posting in such a manner that is easy and concise to understand (remember you have all types of people reading here).
Stats is correct, most short relievers, closers ARE so because they throw hard and only do for a short period and can afford to "miss". And I can tell you that they try VERY hard not to let it sail through the heart of the plate.
quote:Originally posted by Stats4Gnats:
Hate to put you on the spot Fred, but I never miss an opportunity to learn something. Please don’t mention names or even teams or conferences, but would you say that every college program from the biggest DI’s to the smallest JUCO’s have coaches who understand what you’re trying to get across here? Then please go one step further and estimate the percentage of HS programs that have someone coaching pitchers who fully grasp what you’re saying.
My point is, just from the little bit I’ve seen you post, you’re far far above what I see the average college player, and for sure HS player getting for a coach. The way you conceptualize the act of pitching is much more like some grizzled old **** like Dave Duncan or Leo Mazzone, than the run-of-the-mill coaches young players today are exposed to.
I have a network of about thirty pitching guys out there that know what I try to convey and have helped in the thought process of conveying it. Ranging from high school, Junior college, top D1 college, Minor leagues, and minor league pitching coordinators to now even big league coaches. I think that covers alot. That number is the amount of guys that I regularly communicate with.
I guess it is even broader than that when you consider the fact that I will share my information or talk pitching with anybody. One thing I have learned from coaching at all levels on coaching, people won't share for two reasons: they don't want you to know what they know, or they don't want you to know that they don't know. I share because I want to know what others can add or convince me to discard. Ego is not a big thing with me any longer. I believe ego is a natural thing for a young guy because they are out to "re-invent the wheel". As I get older in this pitching gig, I am convinced that everything happens in cycles. What goes around comes around. I believe that simplicity is the key.
Common sense is not what "fools call intellegence" as I have been told by science guys. Common sense brings about understanding. We look at simple things and say no way can it be that easy. There has to be a tougher way, a right of passage to all this, things have to be earned. All those are true. My thoughts are that when you have done the work, the next step is to see the simplicity of it and trust the process.
I know I am rambing here but an example of how we complicate things can be seen in the thread of "player confidence" in the Mental Game section. The young player says that he shakes in game situations and doesn't produce. Why would he have a problem with shaking or why is shaking a problem? He has been told that this is brought about by either a confidence problem or fear. By labeling this as both, negative results find there way in.
I would and have instructed my daughter, who has the same problem, that she needs to welcome those feeling and shakes. The reason is that her body is trying to elevate itself to meet the task at hand. Our body is an incredible thing, it is meant to survive and it does so without our asking it to. (ie. white blood cells swarm a cut or scrap to start the healing process and form a scab) The body knows what you want to accomplish because of your desire to do so. It starts firing neurons left and right making the shakes happen. Are they bad? or are they just a sign that your body wants to work faster than it ever has? I told my daughter that if she thinks of it as the later, she will have confidence. Fear will be eliminated. Like I placed in the other post, some will call this your "fight or flight" mechanism. With what I conveyed to my daughter, she can call it her "FIGHT" mechanism.
I believe everybody knows what I am trying to convey. They are just so clouded by all the difficult things to believe that simple is ok.
Sorry about the length, I cannot make a call on the percentage of HS coaches that know this. My thought process would hope that it is alot. Simply for the fact that it is easy. It's like hitting coaches that say they can't coach pitching or visa versa. The simplicity is that if you can do one, you can do the other, there is not much difference in understanding, only action.
quote:Originally posted by TPM:
All I know is that I asked a few simple questions and I never got answers
I hope I have answered your questions. If not, which ones have I missed?
quote:Originally posted by Fred Corral:quote:Originally posted by TPM:
All I know is that I asked a few simple questions and I never got answers
I hope I have answered your questions. If not, which ones have I missed?
It really doesn't matter anymore, does it?
Pitching IMO, is a difficult job, as I stated if it were that easy, everyone would be pitching.
The problem I see is that when some (whether it be coaches, or those coach dads) begin to make it sound complicated, it gets complicated.
I guess that is why Sully always used to tell our pitcher, stay on top of the ball, trust your stuff and your defense.
Well, we all know it's not just that simple, but he had a way of keeping it that way, I guess that is why his pitchers do so well.
quote:Originally posted by TPM:
It really doesn't matter anymore, does it?
Pitching IMO, is a difficult job, as I stated if it were that easy, everyone would be pitching.
Is the end of the world coming or something? If it didn't matter to me, I wouldn't have asked.
Pitching being difficult is not just your opinion. Everyone would and should like to pitch. The reason they don't is that it is difficult.
I will take this opportunity to share with you my thoughts on what it takes to be a pitcher.
You have to be worthy of being a King to be a pitcher.
Reasons for the above statement.
1. The mound is elevated. Like thrones it is so because the King never sat at the level of peasants.
2. The pitcher dictates the pace of the game. All Kings dictate.
3. Great pitchers are weighed on games won to games lost. All Kings are judged on battles won or lost.
4. Great pitchers lead. Kings...so on and so on.
Sully knows what he is talking about, that is for sure. Your son was fortunate to have had him.
Which leads me to ask again. How many years has your son been knocking on the big door? Has he had an opportunity yet?
Coach, I asked a few questions earlier, that were never directly answered, as I said on page one you didn't have to answer, so it doesn't matter.
I am not sure what set off the above (about comparing kings to pitchers) but here's my thought on that.
Most kings are born into a life of priveledge and honor, most don't know what it like to have to work their butts off to get anything in life. Pretty much things are handed to them on "silver platters".
Being elevated on the mound doesn't or shouldn't make you better than any of the other 8 guys (peasants) on the field with you. You are out their doing your job and in this case that job is the pitcher and you are just one of many. You have to work really hard for years, have great accomplishments others don't share and put in lots of time to earn the priveledge of what possibly may be considered in that sense (king). Isn't that why there is a BB HOF?
If my player had the attitude that he was more worthy of anyone, he'd be in big trouble. And that wouldn't have been or be with just us, but his HS coaches, his colleges coache (epecially Jack Leggett), and the organization he plays for.
Pitcher son has had 3 surgeries since drafted. This is his first off season fall NOT rehabbing. He has worked his butt off to remain in the game. Baseball is extremely humbling, no feeling of being worthy of a kng or better than his teammates stuff for him.
Perhaps someday his hard work will pay off.
BTW, for everyone, here is a great article on the current King hitter. Make note of what is says about what happens when you "grove pitches over the middle of the plate".
http://joeposnanski.si.com/201.../pujols-and-respect/
For those that missed it, Albert swung on a 3-0 pitch.
I am not sure what set off the above (about comparing kings to pitchers) but here's my thought on that.
Most kings are born into a life of priveledge and honor, most don't know what it like to have to work their butts off to get anything in life. Pretty much things are handed to them on "silver platters".
Being elevated on the mound doesn't or shouldn't make you better than any of the other 8 guys (peasants) on the field with you. You are out their doing your job and in this case that job is the pitcher and you are just one of many. You have to work really hard for years, have great accomplishments others don't share and put in lots of time to earn the priveledge of what possibly may be considered in that sense (king). Isn't that why there is a BB HOF?
If my player had the attitude that he was more worthy of anyone, he'd be in big trouble. And that wouldn't have been or be with just us, but his HS coaches, his colleges coache (epecially Jack Leggett), and the organization he plays for.
Pitcher son has had 3 surgeries since drafted. This is his first off season fall NOT rehabbing. He has worked his butt off to remain in the game. Baseball is extremely humbling, no feeling of being worthy of a kng or better than his teammates stuff for him.
Perhaps someday his hard work will pay off.
BTW, for everyone, here is a great article on the current King hitter. Make note of what is says about what happens when you "grove pitches over the middle of the plate".
http://joeposnanski.si.com/201.../pujols-and-respect/
For those that missed it, Albert swung on a 3-0 pitch.
quote:Originally posted by TPM:
Coach, I asked a few questions earlier, that were never directly answered, as I said on page one you didn't have to answer, so it doesn't matter.
I am not sure what set off the above (about comparing kings to pitchers) but here's my thought on that.
Most kings are born into a life of priveledge and honor, most don't know what it like to have to work their butts off to get anything in life. Pretty much things are handed to them on "silver platters".
Being elevated on the mound doesn't or shouldn't make you better than any of the other 8 guys (peasants) on the field with you. You are out their doing your job and in this case that job is the pitcher and you are just one of many. You have to work really hard for years, have great accomplishments others don't share and put in lots of time to earn the priveledge of what possibly may be considered in that sense (king). Isn't that why there is a BB HOF?
If my player had the attitude that he was more worthy of anyone, he'd be in big trouble. And that wouldn't have been or be with just us, but his HS coaches, his colleges coache (epecially Jack Leggett), and the organization he plays for.
Pitcher son has had 3 surgeries since drafted. This is his first off season fall NOT rehabbing. He has worked his butt off to remain in the game. Baseball is extremely humbling, no feeling of being worthy of a kng or better than his teammates stuff for him.
Perhaps someday his hard work will pay off.
BTW, for everyone, here is a great article on the current King hitter. Make note of what is says about what happens when you "grove pitches over the middle of the plate".
http://joeposnanski.si.com/201.../pujols-and-respect/
For those that missed it, Albert swung on a 3-0 pitch.
My king comparison was a joke TPM. (hence the smiley faces.
) You need a beer, a hug or something? I have never seen anybody get so defensive on this site in all the time I have been on it. Which has been since 2003. I will cease to respond to your posts.I wish your son the best of luck and health there is. If he needs a place to work out in Memphis, he is more than welcome. Jason Motte does. Have a great evening.
For your son, TPM.(and others who are moving toward their calling and having to deal with some speed bumps.)
"The Scroll Marked III" from "The Greatest Salesman in the World" by Og Mandino
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lnhervaGOg
"The Scroll Marked III" from "The Greatest Salesman in the World" by Og Mandino
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lnhervaGOg
In the game that Holland pitched, in Albert's last at bat the count got to 3-1 and the catcher set up in the general middle, perhaps just off center. the pitch was pretty close to it's spot, Albert swung and hit into an out. He didn't hit that hot in that particular game.
I was looking at the pitch f/x again tonigh on where pitchers throw when they do pitch to him and it really looks no different than any other batter. In a lot of peoples minds, they may envision this black hole area "down the middle" perhaps where pitchers never pitch to Pujols down the middle. They envision some particular model in their imaginations that pitchers throw the majority of pitches to Pujols on the corners or out of the zone creating this magical miss spot "down the middle". But this fantasy just isn't true. The data doesn't lie. Pitchers do in fact throw a considerable amount of pitches over the heart of the plate to Pujols. Yes he is a better hitter than most. But how much better? Let's crunch some numbers-
In 579 at bats Pujols hit 37 home runs. That works out to about 6% of the at bats he will hit a homer. game 3 was not normal by any standards with him hitting 3 homers in a row. His chances of ever repeating that feat are about 1,000,000 to 1. Not saying he isn't great ( I belive him to be the worlds best all around hitter) but rather sometimes it's better to be lucky than good
His batting average is only 10% better than the league average. How does this translate? Imagine that out of 100 at-bats, an average MLB hitter is going to get an avaerage of 26-27 base hits. Pujols average over that same amount will be 29-30. In simple terms, Pujols only gets on average, 3 more base hits out of every 100 at-bats than the average every day hitter in the MLB.
Looking at the stats in this manner really puts things in perspective for me. It tells me that although Pujols is really good at hitting, the numbers show that he really isn't that more dangerous than the average every day player. What does this really mean? It means that we shouldn't discount all the "average" MLB hitters. They are all good or they wouldn't be there. So in reality, Pujols, is in retrospect, just a wee bit better than others, but not astronomically higher or in any great league beyond the average MLB hitter.
Why is he feared though? Mostly hype in my opinion. We treat him as if he hits a HR every other at bat when in reality he only hits one at the tune of 6% of every at bat. That basically translates to getting a single HR on average to every 17 at-bats.
I was looking at the pitch f/x again tonigh on where pitchers throw when they do pitch to him and it really looks no different than any other batter. In a lot of peoples minds, they may envision this black hole area "down the middle" perhaps where pitchers never pitch to Pujols down the middle. They envision some particular model in their imaginations that pitchers throw the majority of pitches to Pujols on the corners or out of the zone creating this magical miss spot "down the middle". But this fantasy just isn't true. The data doesn't lie. Pitchers do in fact throw a considerable amount of pitches over the heart of the plate to Pujols. Yes he is a better hitter than most. But how much better? Let's crunch some numbers-
In 579 at bats Pujols hit 37 home runs. That works out to about 6% of the at bats he will hit a homer. game 3 was not normal by any standards with him hitting 3 homers in a row. His chances of ever repeating that feat are about 1,000,000 to 1. Not saying he isn't great ( I belive him to be the worlds best all around hitter) but rather sometimes it's better to be lucky than good
His batting average is only 10% better than the league average. How does this translate? Imagine that out of 100 at-bats, an average MLB hitter is going to get an avaerage of 26-27 base hits. Pujols average over that same amount will be 29-30. In simple terms, Pujols only gets on average, 3 more base hits out of every 100 at-bats than the average every day hitter in the MLB.
Looking at the stats in this manner really puts things in perspective for me. It tells me that although Pujols is really good at hitting, the numbers show that he really isn't that more dangerous than the average every day player. What does this really mean? It means that we shouldn't discount all the "average" MLB hitters. They are all good or they wouldn't be there. So in reality, Pujols, is in retrospect, just a wee bit better than others, but not astronomically higher or in any great league beyond the average MLB hitter.
Why is he feared though? Mostly hype in my opinion. We treat him as if he hits a HR every other at bat when in reality he only hits one at the tune of 6% of every at bat. That basically translates to getting a single HR on average to every 17 at-bats.
quote:Originally posted by Fred Corral:quote:Originally posted by TPM:
Coach, I asked a few questions earlier, that were never directly answered, as I said on page one you didn't have to answer, so it doesn't matter.
I am not sure what set off the above (about comparing kings to pitchers) but here's my thought on that.
Most kings are born into a life of priveledge and honor, most don't know what it like to have to work their butts off to get anything in life. Pretty much things are handed to them on "silver platters".
Being elevated on the mound doesn't or shouldn't make you better than any of the other 8 guys (peasants) on the field with you. You are out their doing your job and in this case that job is the pitcher and you are just one of many. You have to work really hard for years, have great accomplishments others don't share and put in lots of time to earn the priveledge of what possibly may be considered in that sense (king). Isn't that why there is a BB HOF?
If my player had the attitude that he was more worthy of anyone, he'd be in big trouble. And that wouldn't have been or be with just us, but his HS coaches, his colleges coache (epecially Jack Leggett), and the organization he plays for.
Pitcher son has had 3 surgeries since drafted. This is his first off season fall NOT rehabbing. He has worked his butt off to remain in the game. Baseball is extremely humbling, no feeling of being worthy of a kng or better than his teammates stuff for him.
Perhaps someday his hard work will pay off.
BTW, for everyone, here is a great article on the current King hitter. Make note of what is says about what happens when you "grove pitches over the middle of the plate".
http://joeposnanski.si.com/201.../pujols-and-respect/
For those that missed it, Albert swung on a 3-0 pitch.
My king comparison was a joke TPM. (hence the smiley faces.
I wish your son the best of luck and health there is. If he needs a place to work out in Memphis, he is more than welcome. Jason Motte does. Have a great evening.
Actually, for those that know me I have a really good sense of humor. FWIW, I take this site pretty seriuously. I take the game seriously too. Seems like that you don't like poeple questioning you (I still have not gotten answers to questions asked). Maybe my questions were too simple for you.
Why do you feel the need to suggest reading material for son? He is surrounded by many wonderful people who are and have been his support system for years.
In AA my son's pitching coach (and still a mentor) is Dennis Martinez. Dennis doesn't express himself with the english language very well, but when it comes to pitching and the game, it's been more educational and meaningful than reading any book. He keeps it very simple, how it should be (again that is why Jerry Weinstein's stuff is so good). I mean tell me how you would try to explain your last drill to 13,14 year old or a player from the dominican who can't speak english?
BTW, why would you feel that my player needs a place to work out?
I think that you don't feel the need to respond to me because there is no gushy OMG this is great stuff here. I happen to agree with lots of what you say, maybe it's just how you say it.
Keep posting, I'm reading and I will respond.
quote:In the game that Holland pitched, in Albert's last at bat the count got to 3-1 and the catcher set up in the general middle, perhaps just off center. the pitch was pretty close to it's spot, Albert swung and hit into an out. He didn't hit that hot in that particular game.
GBM,
Now this is really
Pitchf/x shows Holland didn't throw a single pitch in the strike zone in that Pujols AB.
The groundout, according to pitchf/x, was on a pitch up...and out of the strike zone, not near the "general middle."
http://www.brooksbaseball.net/...3_slnmlb_texmlb_1%2F
quote:Originally posted by TPM:
I take this site pretty seriuously. I take the game seriously too.
You're not unique in that.
quote:Seems like that you don't like poeple questioning you
You seem to be the only one to suggest this.
quote:(I still have not gotten answers to questions asked). Maybe my questions were too simple for you.
Again I will ask. Which ones have I missed?
quote:Why do you feel the need to suggest reading material for son? He is surrounded by many wonderful people who are and have been his support system for years.
It wasn't just for your son, but why? I am a coach. It's what I do. It has helped others. I don't believe I ever mentioned your son was misinformed or not supported. I think I tried to be one of them. The supported side that is.
quote:In AA my son's pitching coach (and still a mentor) is Dennis Martinez. Dennis doesn't express himself with the english language very well, but when it comes to pitching and the game, it's been more educational and meaningful than reading any book. He keeps it very simple,
I heard the same thing anout Coach Martinez.
quote:why Jerry Weinstein's stuff is so good
It's good because it is right. No debate there. JW is the best for me. Golden. Thats why I named my son after him. The best part of me (if there is any)is Coach Weinstein and Pat Doyle.
quote:I mean tell me how you would try to explain your last drill to 13,14 year old or a player from the dominican who can't speak english?
I have with both, Boys ages 8 and up that I instructed while an assistant doing lessons for my income back in the early to late 90's. With Latin and Asian players that I coached in the minor leagues with the Expos and the Dodgers.
quote:BTW, why would you feel that my player needs a place to work out?
Because I have a great facility here at Memphis and as an attempted supporter of your son, who I don't know, it was an offer. Jason Motte could work out anywhere he probably wanted to as do many professional athletes and over here we do not charge a dime. Just an offer.
quote:]I think that you don't feel the need to respond to me because there is no gushy OMG this is great stuff here.
Hardly the case I can promise you. I would prefer the other. It brings about re-evaluation. Like I mentioned before, my glass is not full. There is alot of room in there. Always will be.
quote:Keep posting,
I will.
quote:I'm reading
I am sure you will.
quote:and I will respond.
I won't to this type stuff again.
TPM,
I don't know why I didn't do this before but I viewed your profile and I did not realize you where a mom. I apologize that I have not read "Women are from Venus, Men are from Mars" to understand what indeed got you so peaved in all this. I started a thread because the other was cluttered with "pitching down the middle" why or why not? You were the one that decided to bring it into this thread. When I tried to mention it wasn't about throwing to the middle of the plate, but to the middle of the catcher, you went somewhere I didn't understand and still don't.
I can give my thoughts on all those things but the thread was about "How you hit your target" and "Location". My post was to share how to simplify the process. For me. Just a thought. Just something to help. Coaching, interacting, learning but more importantly, trying. Sorry it wasn't to your liking. But that is the whole key to helping out. "It's a buffet, take what you want." -JW
There is a Greg Maddux interview on Youtube in which he says essentially the same thing. The reporter asks him about his reputation as the Professor and his alleged encylclopedic knowledge of pitchers and he basically shakes his head and says something to the effect of "all I ever tried to do was make the best pitch I possibly could on every single pitch."
quote:Originally posted by Fred Corral:
Thanks for your thoughts. I too, believe mechanics are very important, but in the aspect of hitting your target it definitely takes a back seat or in the "trunk", to the priority of focus and intent to "make this pitch". For me. This fact will eventually come about to those that look for a pitch or mechanical adjustment to get them through to the next start..it will be what brings about the inconsistencies of going from good to struggling and then repeating the cycle over and over. In "making a pitch" you are doing the only thing you can truly control. You can make a great pitch and get lit up and you can make a poor pitch and roll up a GB out. When you head to the mound to start a game, you can't say your going to win...there are too many variables. You can however say that you are going to "make every pitch you possibly can". This is no revelation, just extremely overlooked by the need to constantly fix and refix.
Personally, I like your approach Fred.
One of the worst experiences in baseball is sitting next to a pitcher's dad when his son is getting rocked and having to listen to the dad explain the mechanical reasons behind his lack of effectiveness. "If he had only done X,Y and Z differently, things would be fine."
FWIW, I dont buy the mechanical argument for the most part and think pitchers would be better off simplifying things as much as possible and focusing on execution not mechanics.
One of the worst experiences in baseball is sitting next to a pitcher's dad when his son is getting rocked and having to listen to the dad explain the mechanical reasons behind his lack of effectiveness. "If he had only done X,Y and Z differently, things would be fine."
FWIW, I dont buy the mechanical argument for the most part and think pitchers would be better off simplifying things as much as possible and focusing on execution not mechanics.
Well, I am no where near the expert that Fred is, or any other pitching coach for that matter, but I will say that while pitching should be simple, there are mechanical things that need to be worked on in order to minimize the chances of injury and maximize the potential velocity.
Now, while you are on the mound in a game, you really should not be thinking about these things. That is the worst thing I think you could do. However, when you are doing bullpens or working with your pitching coach, there are things you should be working on.
Back to the topic of this thread - Locating. Are there not techniques you can work on to locate better? I think so. Fred's thoughts of imagining a line from the pitching mound to each corner of the plate and down the middle is a good one. As I stated on a different thread, my son has always been taught to adjust his stride slightly to the side of the plate he is throwing to. Fred says to adjust the heel of the push off foot, which will essentially do the same thing, make you stride slightly towards the side of the plate you are throwing to. There are many other mechanical things pitchers work on. But they work on them in bullpens and while doing flat ground work.
I agree with TPM in that when you are on the mound, pitching in a game, the best thing to do is keep it simple and just get up there and throw the ball. The work you did prior to getting there should all be muscle memory and is what will get you throwing the ball where you want it to go without actually thinking about it.
JMHO.
Now, while you are on the mound in a game, you really should not be thinking about these things. That is the worst thing I think you could do. However, when you are doing bullpens or working with your pitching coach, there are things you should be working on.
Back to the topic of this thread - Locating. Are there not techniques you can work on to locate better? I think so. Fred's thoughts of imagining a line from the pitching mound to each corner of the plate and down the middle is a good one. As I stated on a different thread, my son has always been taught to adjust his stride slightly to the side of the plate he is throwing to. Fred says to adjust the heel of the push off foot, which will essentially do the same thing, make you stride slightly towards the side of the plate you are throwing to. There are many other mechanical things pitchers work on. But they work on them in bullpens and while doing flat ground work.
I agree with TPM in that when you are on the mound, pitching in a game, the best thing to do is keep it simple and just get up there and throw the ball. The work you did prior to getting there should all be muscle memory and is what will get you throwing the ball where you want it to go without actually thinking about it.
JMHO.
quote:Originally posted by Fred Corral:
TPM,
I don't know why I didn't do this before but I viewed your profile and I did not realize you where a mom.
I don't really see why that should make a difference.
quote:Originally posted by Fred Corral:
Pitcher's do throw pitches right down the middle as well. Not everybody is Albert Pujols. (Thankfully)
I do beleive that this comment may be what brought that topic alive again.
All I said was the I didn't agree with some points that you made and that is my choice, sorry if that offended you.
quote:Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
Why is he feared though? Mostly hype in my opinion. We treat him as if he hits a HR every other at bat when in reality he only hits one at the tune of 6% of every at bat. That basically translates to getting a single HR on average to every 17 at-bats.
His lifetime career BA is .366. Is that average? What are his statistics with men in scoring position and is that league average? What about his OBP, extra base hits? How does he compare in relation to others? Maybe that is the reason why he is feared, not necessarily HR.
quote:Originally posted by TPM:quote:Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
Why is he feared though? Mostly hype in my opinion. We treat him as if he hits a HR every other at bat when in reality he only hits one at the tune of 6% of every at bat. That basically translates to getting a single HR on average to every 17 at-bats.
His lifetime career BA is .366. Is that average? What are his statistics with men in scoring position and is that league average? What about his OBP, extra base hits? How does he compare in relation to others? Maybe that is the reason why he is feared, not necessarily HR.
He batted .299 this season. That was what i was basing my stats off of. His all time batting average is .328 according to MLB.com
I cherish those who dare to pitch to him. He isn't a Goliath up there- he can be slain by an average pitcher. The hype is that most won't pitch to him out of either respect or to get to a hitter not as good.
Sorry, you are correct his career average is 328.
Keep in mind that Albert was injured, I saw him in spring training and I beleive he had some issues then but people just don't talk about him. What amazes me is his consistancy, that's what makes players stand out from the others. I have seen him hit multiple HR in a game, would you know that statistic? I saw him hit multiple in spring training. I think that to appreciate him you have to see him in person. But to refer to him as hype, I just don't get that.
Keep in mind that Albert was injured, I saw him in spring training and I beleive he had some issues then but people just don't talk about him. What amazes me is his consistancy, that's what makes players stand out from the others. I have seen him hit multiple HR in a game, would you know that statistic? I saw him hit multiple in spring training. I think that to appreciate him you have to see him in person. But to refer to him as hype, I just don't get that.
quote:Originally posted by TPM:
Sorry, you are correct his career average is 328.
Keep in mind that Albert was injured, I saw him in spring training and I beleive he had some issues then but people just don't talk about him. What amazes me is his consistancy, that's what makes players stand out from the others. I have seen him hit multiple HR in a game, would you know that statistic? I saw him hit multiple in spring training. I think that to appreciate him you have to see him in person. But to refer to him as hype, I just don't get that.
I don't believe one has to see anyone in person to appreciate him. Maybe you haven't noticed the language I use in recognizing his talent. I have continually said he is, in my opinion, the best hitter in the world! My point with the hype is that when one gets this hype going they become larger than life, and it is at that point everyone starts to fear them rather than try to go to battle with them. Reminds me of the famous olympic story when USA beat Russia for the gold medal Hockey title. Team USA battled, didn't back down or play tot he hype and let it instill fear in them. No, they attacked, did battle and slayed the supposed larger than life giant. What they found in the end is that no one is larger than life- larger than what is real and can be achieved.
When I see everyone back off Pujols it kind of bothers me and I feel like calling them all chicken. Yeah, sure, you have times where an intentional walk is just what the doctor ordered- to set up a double play, to get to the pitcher. It is a game of strategy. But I think it can be strongly argued that we place too much hype into Pujols and because of that we play "chicken" and run like a scared dog with our tails between our legs. I say- pitch to him. I see the better pitchers wanting to pitch to him- to battle and hopefully become victorious. If we understand that he isn't larger than life- that he can be beat, then we face our fears and find out in the end that he isn't really that much different than others in his profession. I sit there with my son and son says- "If I was pitching I would be mad if my coach wanted me to intentionally walk him". This has nothing to do with respect, this has to do with having a competetive attitude and one that faces fear with unshaken faith and belief that no one is larger than life.
quote:Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
But I think it can be strongly argued that we place too much hype into Pujols and because of that we play "chicken" and run like a scared dog with our tails between our legs. I say- pitch to him.
He's only been intentionally walked 15 times this year, most likely in strategic situations, so how can you say that pitchers don't pitch to him?
But how many unintentional/intentional walks did he get?
quote:Originally posted by TPM:quote:Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
But I think it can be strongly argued that we place too much hype into Pujols and because of that we play "chicken" and run like a scared dog with our tails between our legs. I say- pitch to him.
He's only been intentionally walked 15 times this year, most likely in strategic situations, so how can you say that pitchers don't pitch to him?
I would like to publicly thank Fred for his help. In my conversations with Fred and the information he made available I have seen an immediate difference between the last bullpen session I had thrown with my players and the ones that were thrown yesterday. His charting system makes it very easy to see where they are missing. His self talk suggestions seemed to make the players focus and changing the direction of their foot allowed for kids to throw to the corners a lot better. I compared the charts from the previous week and found that the players hit their corner locations with a lot more efficiency.
THANKS FRED!!!
THANKS FRED!!!
quote:Originally posted by MTH:
But how many unintentional/intentional walks did he get?quote:Originally posted by TPM:quote:Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
But I think it can be strongly argued that we place too much hype into Pujols and because of that we play "chicken" and run like a scared dog with our tails between our legs. I say- pitch to him.
Sorry again, early am post when in a hurry not good! He was intentionally walked 15 times.
He's only been intentionally walked 15 times this year, most likely in strategic situations, so how can you say that pitchers don't pitch to him?
Fred,
I agree that down is better than up most of the time for most pitchers, but there are a few who can work a fairly high percentage of the time up in the zone.
Personally, I'd rather have Halladay, but even so there are a few who can work up pretty effectively.
I agree that down is better than up most of the time for most pitchers, but there are a few who can work a fairly high percentage of the time up in the zone.
Personally, I'd rather have Halladay, but even so there are a few who can work up pretty effectively.
CADad,
I agree. Great point. I can still see Helton, swing under Papelbon's heater as I type this.
On Halladay as well, Would love to have him.
I agree. Great point. I can still see Helton, swing under Papelbon's heater as I type this.
On Halladay as well, Would love to have him.
Strangely enough I was thinking of Washburn in his early days. Somehow he managed to work up in the zone with a 90ish fastball.
CADad- I think of current guys like Jered Weaver (89.2 avg mph) and CJ Wilson (90.8 avg mph) who are able to do the same. I think it's often times relatable to deception and repertoire: Weaver at 6'7", Wilson being lefty, the ability to throw multiple pitches in multiple locations. The fastball up becomes part of the package being that a hitter may have to make yet another adjustment in this particular situation.
Then there's guys like Verlander or Clemens back in the day. It becomes a bit easier to add a high fastball to your consistent repertoire when you're mid-upper 90's throughout a game.
Then there's guys like Verlander or Clemens back in the day. It becomes a bit easier to add a high fastball to your consistent repertoire when you're mid-upper 90's throughout a game.
quote:Originally posted by Fred Corral:
I have a network of about thirty … in understanding, only action.
OK, I think I get the general meaning, if not all the intricacies.
So please allow me to ask another question. Do you feel there’s too much coaching going on generally in the game today, and do you think it’s the same at every level? The reasons I ask are, my experience as a player coupled with my son’s experience as a player, and now my experience as a bystander, all show very different things. My experience was in the mid 50s to mid 60s, and we were expected to understand and do a lot more than in my son’s experience from 95 thru 05. But even his experience sure seems to pale in comparison with how little players today are expected to understand about the game, or do anything other than act like little chess pieces.
I can’t believe the amount of control that is common among coaches today. One of the things I found so enjoyable about the game, was that it gave me a chance to be in some control of my environment. Perhaps time has eroded the true memories, but I sure remember being expected to make decisions and take actions on my own that the current crop of players is just not familiar with.
Bet you remember Johnny U calling his own plays too. ;-) Me too. Sadly, those days are gone.
quote:Originally posted by Stats4Gnats:
I can’t believe the amount of control that is common among coaches today. One of the things I found so enjoyable about the game, was that it gave me a chance to be in some control of my environment. Perhaps time has eroded the true memories, but I sure remember being expected to make decisions and take actions on my own that the current crop of players is just not familiar with.
