A New Pitching Technique?

.............no. Just no. I don't remember when it was but you tried to peddle this on here before. It didn't go anywhere. Probably not going to again.

I am sorry but what? What am I peddling?
An idea that maybe there is another way/style/ technique to throw / pitch?
Maybe there is a way to train and condition and athletes body so that surgery on the elbow and shoulder is never even needed or even considered.
Are you telling me you are happy with the "status Quo" of baseball and all the injuries at all levels and the acceptance that surgery is just to be expected? There is no other option? No other avenue worth explorinig? Really?

Ok so you want us to believe that a guy who doesn't throw a baseball has found a new way that is going to alleviate injuries??? Come on now - get serious. What's the difference between you and Mike Marshall (have you even heard of him)?

The best evidence is that MLB teams spend millions of dollars on pitchers every year and find the absolute best way to throw to minimize injuries. They are not going to waste money on guys who could throw in a bbetter way. If there was a better way to throw I'm sure it would have already been discovered by now.

Injuries are caused because of

1. Poor mechanics
2. Overuse
3. Pure bad luck

Roald,

You seem like a fit and intelligent individual. I watched your videos and they are impressive. I'd like to hear your opinion on exactly what this new method is. I saw it, but I would like to hear what your thoughts are and what you see are the keys.

As for the videos, I will say I am very skeptical of the whizzing golf ball. An average PGA player has a 100mph club speed which translates to 130-140mph off the tee. As is well publicized, Tiger Woods is in the 125mph range with his club speed (160mph velocity). I've seen him play up close and his ball doesn't "whizz" off the tee. You can't seriously expect me to believe you throw the ball harder than Tiger hits it.

Interesting. If you were throwing a baseball at 100 MPH at 23 you could have made a lot more money doing that then throwing those sticks around...

Already discussed, back in 2009. Here is a link.

http://hsbaseballweb.com/eve/f...91034941/m/373104342

quote:

Originally posted by coach2709:
Ok so you want us to believe that a guy who doesn't throw a baseball has found a new way that is going to alleviate injuries??? Come on now - get serious. What's the difference between you and Mike Marshall (have you even heard of him)?

The best evidence is that MLB teams spend millions of dollars on pitchers every year and find the absolute best way to throw to minimize injuries. They are not going to waste money on guys who could throw in a bbetter way. If there was a better way to throw I'm sure it would have already been discovered by now.

Injuries are caused because of

1. Poor mechanics
2. Overuse
3. Pure bad luck

I contacted Mike Marshall last year. I believe it was you that suggested it?
You can believe what you want. I know I am only one person, a sample of one if you will, so it not very scientific but there has to be something that I am doing in my training and the way that I throw that allows me to keep going at a high level at my advanced age and still being competitive with athletes 30 years younger than me. No?
Am I just a freak of nature, come on, really?
I admit I am an outsider to the world of baseball but it seems to me as you say there a lot of money being spent on pitchers every year to prevent injuries and there seem to be more then ever. Is that just me? Am I wrong?
As far as what you list as causing injuries: I would agree with the three you list although they are not weigheted the same. Bad luck is always a possible factor but the chance of "bad luck" striking - little pun - can be greatly reduced with careful planning.
I would add to your list the following:
4. Bad training habits - insufficient warm up / cool down ,
5. Lack of body awareness - not knowing when to back off, stop, or change something
6. Improper conditioning programs - some of the training programs I have seen for pitchers are well surprisely basic - justyour average run of the mill fitness condition programs.
7. Not throwing year round - yes I know this goes against everything I have heard about baseball - but I believe this is a huge mistake. And to clarify I not talking about throwing hard year round but throwing constantly and consistantly.

I have pitched every year of my life since I was in 1st grade. I take that back in 3rd grade our town got a pitching machine and I got to be a left handed catcher I am 38 still pitching never had an arm injury through college, senior league, or after multiple days in a row of 300 plus batting practice pitches. I had my shoulder subluxed (partial dislocation) in basketball after college and it took a few years to get back (never will be what it was) but I can still pitch and get guys out. I do not come on and offer a new theory, or product. It is pretty simple. Have solid mechanics, take care of yourself, and after years of coaching I have learned that throwing BP type pitches are great therapy. I am glad that you are a successful athlete that can still compete. Best of luck in those competitions. Just please be cautious when thinking that a complete overhaul of mechanics is the answer. Mine were normal as well as many others that pitched much more successfully than me for many, many years.

Roald,

quote:

“An idea that maybe there is another way/style/ technique to throw / pitch?

Keep up the good fight, as you see there are many who would not want to even look at your information as in all scientific endeavors in the past, you are one of those pioneers that have to pull arrows out of your back before you can live peacefully with the rest.
This thing has come along way in just 10 years many MLB pitchers now have the information and are taking advantage of it even though professionals will be secretive about advantages. Dr Marshall wrote a very detailed and positive critique on Tim Lincecum who attains the highest arm vector and posts up his front leg like you are talking about but does not attain the rotation Dr.Marshall wants to see because of his cross-over stride and excessive length that helps him none (will lead to hip , knee and back injuries) but does use his Latissimus Dorsi (unlike all others) as the primary mover instead of his pech because of his high humeral vector that allows him to throw from close to “inside of vertical" instead of centripetal (injurious) the way throwing and pitching are taught still today to baseball children that gives them the forearm flyout supinated imperative that causes elbow injuries. Have no fear though this thing is rolling and will be implemented more and more as time goes on.

quote:

“Maybe there is a way to train and condition and athletes body so that surgery on the elbow and shoulder is never even needed or even considered.”

There is!!! The sport specific overload resistance training that Dr.Marshall insists on and why you are so bullet proof.

quote:

“Are you telling me you are happy with the "status Quo" of baseball and all the injuries at all levels and the acceptance that surgery is just to be expected? There is no other option? No other avenue worth explorinig? Really?”

Seems to be the case with some but not all, there are some that are curious enough to change tradition but they must first go through the period of scorn and ridicule just like Dick Fosbury who stood the athletic word on it’s ear before being accepted but again it’s coming on fast now!

quote:

“I contacted Mike Marshall last year. I believe it was you that suggested it?”

Thanks Roald, that exchange was very positive and led to some great e-mails between you and Dr.Marshall who actually made some great mechanical diagnosis’s of different javelin techniques to which he made some recommendations after critiquing them.
I believe Dominic sent those videos.

quote:

“Am I just a freak of nature, come on, really?”

That’s what they called “Iron Mike”! They do not want to train every day of the year like him. He even trained for an hour and a half the mornings of games. Go figure.

quote:

“Am I wrong?”

You are absolutely right and that ain’t wrong!

Coach2709,

quote:

“It didn't go anywhere. Probably not going to again”

Oh I would say it went plenty of places and the word got out to those here that are curious! We will see? I know of many MLB players with Dr.Marshall’s DVD now which means many at all levels also have it, time marches on.
To bad you did not learn anything then, maybe your attitude will change this time and you will look into it for at least the youth players that you run into?

quote:

“Ok so you want us to believe that a guy who doesn't throw a baseball has found a new way that is going to alleviate injuries???”

It’s not new, it’s a tenet in all the sport physiological and Kinesiological texts! It’s just not used by baseball throwers and pitchers. It’s called “Sport specific overload resistance training” but baseball players are still taught that a clean and squat is the way, LOL

quote:

“The best evidence is that MLB teams spend millions of dollars on pitchers every year and find the absolute best way to throw to minimize injuries.”

Who’s best evidence is that? They treat them all like glass snowflakes and none of these so called experts have credentials to make the change anyways. Until baseball quits hiring their drinking buddies to train them and understand mechanics this will not change and I just love their training and diagnostic expenditures, NOT.

quote:

“They are not going to waste money on guys who could throw in a bbetter way.”

Nobody will let youth players throw a different way, catch22 and you look like one of the catchers.

quote:

“If there was a better way to throw I'm sure it would have already been discovered by now.”

It has you just will not look in to it and keep badmouthing people who do!
When will you learn instead of fight something you have no experience in.

quote:

”Injuries are caused because of”

Mechanics, poor non specific conditioning by way of the good old boy system brought on by common ignorance.

I know, what I don't know. Without debating who is right and who is wrong, it's very disturbing how closed the rank and file in baseball are concerning pitching arm/shoulder injuries.

To an outsider, it appears MLB views pitchers as "perishable assets" to be replaced regularly after their inevitable breakdown. Pitching Coaches seem to teach what they believe made others successful, even though they themselves typically were not a success during their own careers.

Anybody remember the "Fosbury Flop?" I seem to remember it was a 100% dramatic technique change for the high jump and nobody thought it would catch on.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Yardbird:

It’s not new, it’s a tenet in all the sport physiological and Kinesiological texts! It’s just not used by baseball throwers and pitchers. It’s called “Sport specific overload resistance training” but baseball players are still taught that a clean and squat is the way, LOL
[QUOTE]

Good point, most likely most HS gyms across america you will find pitchers training the same as other athletes.

I also got to go with roald62's #4,5,6,7 and BOF's reply that too bad if he was throwing 100 (probably not from the mound) he's be a rich guy today!

Pitchers definetly are perishable assets amd you do not always find the best pitching coaches among the pro ranks. Can't argue with that!

I do want to add to my earlier post that I do love the idea of looking to improve the mechanics of pitching and hitting. Holding a degree in kinesiology, I love to read and hear about ideas that I can examine. I just look very cautiously at small sample sizes. I would hesitate to say that because the way I throw has kept my arm healthy for 21 seasons, that everyone should do it. I do think it is good to look at these ideas to develop ways to improve mechanical efficiency. I also would never put down players that played the game and might not have a scientific background. Being there and doing it has more to offer than many realize. It is important not to over look these players as just "drinking buddies". We also have to remember that many scientists believed the curveball did not curve for years. I think we need to listen to everyone's valid points and examine them.

Thank you

hsballcoach,
There's also a drawback to ignoring a small sample size. You have to be very careful in analyzing data regarding athletic endeavors. For example, let's say you have a technique that you test on a large sample of players. Some improve, some stay the same, and some regress. The large group study would probably show that the particular technique had no statistically significant advantage. Yet there's the possibility that it helped a significant number of athletes. At that point one would have to do further research to find out why it helped some and didn't help others.

Not everybody responds the same to techniques, training, etc.

quote:

Not everybody responds the same to techniques, training, etc.

I agree with this 100%. This is why I do not like approaches that state here is THE way to pitch because I believe it to be so. (not saying this is what is happening here, is it?) I feel that some variety is what makes a staff effective. CAdad, I agree with you about being cautious about sample size. But the larger te sample the more true the picture. If something is truly effective, then it should demonstrate that on a large scale. If a number of subjects regress, those are the ones that need to be examined as well because they would disprove a theory. Understand that I approach my own information with skepticism. If I can prove something I am doing wrong, I stop doing it. The less I am able to find flaws in something I do, the more I examine it on a serious level and keep it.

I would be curious to see some video, slow motion if possible, of roald62 throwing a baseball with some radar gun readings to actually see real time with some factual data on how hard he can throw a baseball. (or someone else he has trained) Throwing golf balls and Javelins are interesting, however they are not baseballs and not really that relevant. It is interesting to see other techniques, but someone has to have the desire to move a new approach forward. He might be on to something or he might not, but someone has to run with the ball so to speak. After demonstrating some real success in throwing a baseball at high velocities using his techniques, they would also have to be adapted to real game situations and demonstrate success against an actual batter.

I get the old boy network that baseball has and its resistance to change. Alan Jaeger has shown, quite successfully, that the old ways of throwing a baseball 120 feet were wrong. He has worked at it, took a lot of arrows in the back, but now has a large statistical sample verifying his methods are successful. He also now has a large reference base of professional baseball players who follow his methods. Dr Marshall has done the same thing and has been championing a new and different method for quite some time, but he has not demonstrated the same success level. That is not to say all of his techniques are wrong, and in particular I think he has been a leader in highlighting the issue of genetic age in youth pitchers, along with the potential damage that can be done to them throwing too much too young and he should be given a lot of credit for this. This is an area that I think more people should recognize him for his contributions.

I should also mention that Ron Wolforth has championed new and different cross training techniques in the area of conditioning and is building up a very successful reference base also. Many thought he was a nut 10 years ago and suddenly he is not so nutty.

So new and different approaches can and should be embraced, but in each case someone has to have the desire, vision, and willing to take the risk of taking a new approach. So if roald62 or someone else wants to try to demonstrate a new approach, more power to him, however he, or someone who has the passion, is going to have to try to demonstrate that his approach can be viable by getting a baseball, a radar gun and a video camera and show the skeptics that his approach is viable as a first step. Minus this it is just another interesting you tube video that we can look at and forget about in a few days.

I believe at the Wolforth facility they've had players throw the underweight balls, which are probably significantly heavier than a golf ball well over 100 mph. They also use drills which allow a player to throw a few mph faster than they can off the mound. It may help the players throw faster in the long run but those techniques don't directly transfer to higher velocity off the mound. Wolforth has had some demonstrated success in increasing velocity off the mound.

I don't know if this so called technique from roald can result in higher velocities off the mound or not. Show me.

BTW, I don't see anything particularly different about the technique. There's a lot of counter rotation but he doesn't stay closed as well as for instance Aroldis Chapman. Counter rotation has the potential to add velocity but more often than not it impacts control or requires a bandaid such as striding closed.

Even if it worked, how would it result in location? A pitcher needs to see his target and this video shows that is not possible with this technique.

Bum,

At the risk of sounding stupid, I've always thought "seeing" the target is somewhat over rated. In fact, for some with mechanical flaws it can be an actual problem. The eyes allow for adjustment when perfect mechanics (if there is such a thing) shouldn't need adjustment. Now if the mechanics are solid, the eyes are more helpful.

We would take pitchers and have them throw blind folded. This way the eyes would not dominate what they were doing. The feel alone is what would get them around the strike zone.

I once watched an old guy shoot and make free throws (lots of them) blind folded. When asked how, he said, I shoot them the same exact way every time. Granted pitching is much more complicated, but you would be surprised by how accurate a blind pitcher can be.

PG,
There are certainly pitchers who allow their heads to pull off at release yet can still throw strikes. There are also pitchers whose heads are "perfectly" still who struggle to throw strikes. Like almost everything else it isn't an absolute.

However, most pitchers have more trouble repeating when the head is not facing the target at release. Being blindfolded, or just closing their eyes is a great drill for lots of pitchers because it does force them to maintain their balance and repeat their delivery.

Personally, I like to have the nose facing the target at release and don't really care if the head is moving a bit as long as it isn't pulling the pitcher off balance in doing so. JMO.

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
We would take pitchers and have them throw blind folded. This way the eyes would not dominate what they were doing. The feel alone is what would get them around the strike zone.

I once watched an old guy shoot and make free throws (lots of them) blind folded. When asked how, he said, I shoot them the same exact way every time. Granted pitching is much more complicated, but you would be surprised by how accurate a blind pitcher can be.

I still wouldn't want to hit against one

Yes, the nose should point to the plate just as the belly button should point to the plate (at release).

I was just referring to vision. As great as it is to be able to see, eye sight can be an enemy.

Example (running), Good athletes will turn and see the target (ie. 2B) that vision takes them to the base. If they are off balance slightly they will compensate and get on line. This adjustment is hardly felt, if at all, by the runner. Then again, it does cost efficiency and time any time that an adjustment needs to be made. So the best way to steal 2B would be to use perfect technique. We used to blind fold runners too.

So often pitching mechanics are discussed when talking about velocity or injury prevention. Obviously good mechanics will help increase velocity and might lessen injury, but good mechanics also help with accuracy.

To me perfect mechanics differ from one pitcher to the next. Lots of similarities, some that would be considered necessary, but "feel" has to be considered. No one except the pitcher himself can identify "feel". No one taught Bob Feller and many other great pitchers how to pitch. He threw the ball the way his body told him he could throw it best. We should be glad that no one ever changed him.

PG, we'll have to disagree on this one. I don't think it is so much about "vision" to the target as it is about direction to the target. A pitcher who counter-rotates, or winds around to the target, may have difficulty in applying directional force to the target. This doesn't necessary result in loss of velocity but it's hard to convince me a pitcher can be equally effective locating when he picks up the target only upon or after release. That just doesn't make sense to me.

Bum,

Based on your last post, I'm not sure we disagree all that much. I do believe it's about direction to the target.

Agree with you BUM.

My son did a tune up at the Jaeger camp this week and Alan was talking about the importance of focus as a pitcher and he teaches his guys to not only focus on the glove but to actually pick out a spot on the glove. (like the "R" or something)