A question about grades...

I would consul for him to take the course work necessary that would present your son in the best position to score well on the ACT and/or SAT. Bear in mind most schools weight the AP courses. A 78 in an AP course would not be considered a C on the transcript.

My wife and I have required our son to take pre AP and now beginning in the AP classes. The busier they stay, the less trouble they get into.

I don't know the answer for all the colleges. But in my limited experience it is better to have the 98 in regular than 78 in AP.

We also discovered that your schools numbers and rankings(mainly % that attend a 4 year college) mean a lot.

quote:

Originally posted by Sandy:
I don't know the answer for all the colleges. But in my limited experience it is better to have the 98 in regular than 78 in AP.

We also discovered that your schools numbers and rankings(mainly % that attend a 4 year college) mean a lot.

Having taught Div 1 and 5A HS, ......a 98 in a regular class would be better than a 78 in an advanced class.

Call some university admissions offices and ask your questions, I did this when choosing courses for my child last fall. They will be happy to talk to you.

Also, Class Rank and SAT or ACT scores are more important than GPA, acording to the information I received.

GPA - FYI - Many universities only average in core classes, not electives, when looking at GPA, and they take the grade that is there, not the AP weighted value, like some high schools say.

Additionally, I believe he can remain academically eligible with a 60% grade or better in a Pre Ap or AP class with the school Principal's approval, not a 70% grade or better like in regular classes. Check with your school.

In our experience we found it depends on how your high school records your grade. My son was in AP classes. He would make an 88 for example and should have showed up as a 98, since at our school you get 10 extra points for AP, but when I checked the clearinghouse it showed up as a B instead of an A. When I questioned the clearinghouse they said the school should let them know but they never did. I think the higher the grade the better off you are! But at the same time you need to make sure you are prepared for ACT or SAT! I agree class rank is a big plus! At our school to rank in the top 10% you need to be in some AP classes! Good Luck!

AP classses are great and you do get Advanced Placement for them in college, if you make good grades score high enough on the test that is required at the end of the AP course to placement. The testing grade at the end is something like a B or better - 80%. You save time and money if you are successful in the AP class.

Check with your high school and prospective university on how they handle the AP/GPA points.... the the clearing house and ask how many shools report it as Ap points.
Good luck.

Mine is a soph and taking some advanced courses now, and we just completed his junior schedule this week. Not sure if this is the case with all districts but ours offers Honors and AP in core subjects.

I think the key is balance. The time requirements for baseball are only going to increase for him next year, so in general I would strongly advise against loading up on all honors or AP courses. Have him pick 2 core subjects he is most interested in or that seem to come easier to him, then take advanced levels of those.

IMO this way he can still play baseball and build a very solid academic record that will appeal to most colleges (and all coaches).

EDIT: One point about ACT/SAT......if he's taking advanced courses in science and/or history, that will payoff on the ACT as it has a science and social studies section. The SAT is strictly reading, math and writing.

There is no social studies section on the ACT. It includes an english, reading, math, science, and a writing section. The writing score is combined with the english mulitple choice score to give you the english section grade.

ACT-is out of 36
SAT-up to 2400

Some high schools provide an equalizer for taking AP courses. They will multiply the grade assigned from the teacher by 1.1 (e.g., 10% equalizer) or 1.15 (15%), and use this higher grade when figuring GPA and class rank.

Thus a 78 would go down as a 86 for purposes of GPA and class rank (assuming a 10% equalizer).

This is a good approach, as it avoids penalizing good students for taking tougher courses.

Find out if your son's school does this. Some do, some don't.

If they apply an equalizer, then he may want to consider taking the AP course. If not, the regular course may be better.

As far as what is most important - class rank, GPA, SAT's - that varies with the individual college. Many include all three in their criteria. Some do not consider class rank. Almost all of them do consider SAT's. Can't remember one that didn't look at GPA, but there may have been...

The above is based on the results of a pretty extensive college search.

quote:

Originally posted by pizzathehutt:
There is no social studies section on the ACT.

If so, son's counselor needs to brush up on her test content.

I haven't read every post, but the high school lists grades without them weighted. Meaning a 78 in an AP course is a 78 (on the transcript, calculating overall GPA is different). I question what AP courses a freshman can be taking. Will he be taking the AP tests in all these subjects?

Using myself as an example.
Last year I received an 89 in AP Spanish. That will go as a B on my official transcript sent to colleges. However, when factoring my cumulative GPA, it will go in as a 94.

I have taken the maximum amount of AP/Honors courses available through my time at Jesuit, it can be done, but the time commitment might mean Saturday and maybe even Friday nights are spent doing some academic fun.

Also, and I am less sure on this topic, I think the clearinghouse does a non-weighted grade. Meaning my 89 in AP Spanish goes in as B just like an 89 in regular spanish would. They also consider every pass/fail course as the lowest required grade to pass (a C I think). Most upper level universities that I was/am interested in do a non-weighted system. However, they tend to have a seperate category for course rigor.

Also, just to emphasize checking with colleges...
If a kid receives a 5 on the BC Calculus Test, Harvard will accept that calculus credit; however, Texas A&M will require that the student still take a similar calculus course and not take the credit at all.

quote:

Originally posted by Dtiger:
Using myself as an example.
Last year I received an 89 in AP Spanish. That will go as a B on my official transcript sent to colleges. However, when factoring my cumulative GPA, it will go in as a 94.

There will also be a notation next to that B on your transcript, however, which lets colleges know that a multiplier applies.

A lot of the top schools will look down on not having AP classes. I know for a fact that schools like Trinity and Rice will not admit you if you didn't take AP Classes and they were offered.

Texan, I hope you are right; however, on all the transcripts that I have seen, no multiplier exists (for Jesuit). I must also say that by the fact that I've seen them, it means they are not "official transcripts" that the colleges get, so maybe there is a difference? I can do some asking around. It might be a Jesuit thing?

My son is a senior at a college prep school. He shared the following:

"Sometimes it is easier to get a B in an AP class than an A in a regular class. Also, as long as you have a couple of AP classes then you will be fine for any college other than an Ivy League. Frankly one of my friends did not take any AP classes, made straight A's and did great on the ACT because the Science portion of the ACT does not really relate to anything you have learned-it is interpretation of graphs etc with all information provided. He got into U.T., A & M and even Trinity" Also, his Chemistry class was taught by the AP teacher-same labs etc; however he did not get the AP credit--he just had the great luck of taking a very difficult non AP class. My son said to take the class with the best teacher for Chemistry-you can read on your own in English but to have a poor Chemistry teacher means you will pay for tutorials.

It depends on how your school ranks your child. For example, some rank according to quartile where anything above a 90 is in the first quartile. In that case, you would be better off taking the regular class and making an A over the AP and making lower than an A. Every school my son applied to used the unweighted average and now he wishes he had taking a more balanced set of classes during high school...just our experience. Good Luck...

quote:

Originally posted by Dtiger:
Texan, I hope you are right; however, on all the transcripts that I have seen, no multiplier exists (for Jesuit). I must also say that by the fact that I've seen them, it means they are not "official transcripts" that the colleges get, so maybe there is a difference? I can do some asking around. It might be a Jesuit thing?

I have seen Texan Son's official transcripts. There is a designation next to the pre-AP and AP course names that have a multiplier. The individual course grade itself doesn't reflect the multiplier, although the overall GPA does.

What your private school does, I do not know.

bballlove- I can somewhat echo your son's feelings, possibly for other reasons. In my experience at Jesuit, taking the harder courses means a student is getting the best teachers. Teachers that have been there, teachers that are confident, etc. Some of the regular teachers are more defensive at Jesuit (not many... a few) and will often be harsher on a class or intentionally make it tough because the kids "must" (I say this in a sarcastic manor) not be as good of kids since they are in regulars. I speak with mainly two teachers in mind throughout my high school experience. Their status at my HS, I don't know.

I say push yourself to the limit where success can still be reached, because in time, that limit will become greater and greater.

Right on DTiger.... the answer to the question posed in this thread is you should take the most challenging courses offered. College admissions people want students who have been challenged and succeeded. It does no good, and in fact is counterproductive, to breeze through an easy course load with A's when you could have taken a more challenging route.

My son gained admission to three top schools - Wofford, Georgetown, and Richmond based largely on his AP courseload. GPA was high, but test scores were middle of the road for these schools. Coaches went to bat for him and they told us his AP courseload made the difference with admissions.

Challenge yourself and work hard - there is no tomorrow.

Heavy D,

While this board may be a place to get some initial (and varied) information, you really need to go to the source. Talk to some colleges that your son may apply to. It's often as easy as one phone call.

I will say that many of the schools my 09 son has looked at have cosistently stressed the importance of the level of the course he's taken. They've strongly urged taking AP classes. Again, this may vary from college to college.

The "98 vs 78" scenario makes for a farily easy call. When you get to considering something like 94 vs 84, that's when it's especially important to know what the college values more.

So bottom line, listen to all the posts here -- but talk to the colleges yourself. Best of luck to your son!

Perhaps heres a topic I can discuss without making a fool of myself:

I dont think I can stress how important AP course load is. Even if the grades suffer somewhat (and they should, the work is harder), they show college counselors that you challenged yourself throughout high school, and that is very important.

If you son is doing time consuming extra carriculars (like baseball), they will take this into consideration. I firmly believe that colleges will take a kid who has an 80 average in AP's with a ton of extra carriculars every day of the week over someone who took easy classes. It shows you have some depth and individuality.

Additionally, these classes prepare you for the ACT/SAT, and for the type workload you have in college. Someone who takes basic level classes will have a much larger ajustment period to college than a pre-ap/ap student.

Extra carriculars and SAT/ACT are just as important if not moreso than your gpa in my opinion.

Hope this helps!

Although AP classes may help prepare you, they can hurt when trying to get an athletic scholly. NCAA will only look at the unweighted grade or unweighted GPA in core classes. The other consideration is, can you score high enough on the AP test to receive actual credit? Some kids spend so much time and effort in an AP class and then do not receive a high enough score on the test to receive the highly touted reason for taking the AP class, which is to receive college credit. Also, one may want to check with their college choice, as many institutions will not honor AP scores at all.

quote:

Although AP classes may help prepare you, they can hurt when trying to get an athletic scholly

Having my son prepared is NO.1 priority, athletic scholly is a distant second.

Another view- I know a young man who took his share of AP classes and because of this his GPA was tops in his senior class. Not sure that all colleges would have used the weighted score BUT, this did prepare this individual as he still maintains an "A" in college and by finishing tops in his class it allowed him to go to any public Texas University Tuition free for the first year. This also brought other academic scholarships that helped pay for his education. The added bonus was he busted his butt as hard on the field as he did in the classroom and received an athletic scholarship as well. More now than ever, coaches seek out the "student athlete".

I agree 100% with Natural, it's about preparing your child.

I think when baseball becomes more important than your education (at any level) it becomes a problem.

Yes. Even though at Jesuit we use a 100 point scale, normally at a school with a 4.0 grading scale, there are certain "maximums" in points a student can receive in a class. From what I have heard from Ursuline (Jesuit's sister school and a school with a 4.0 grading scale), an A in a regular course gets a student a 4.0. However, an A in an AP courses gets a student a 4.6. There can be levels of an A and what number out of 4 a student receives--which add much confusion to the situation for me, but in general, there is an added bonus for taking AP courses.

Kids would benefit from AP classes in spelling.

Thanks PD, the post was done while catching up on the Supreme Court case Buckley v. Valeo...

Get a cup of coffee and bagel, this one is a bit long...sorry. It does tell a good story and makes a point about the AP class selection. Here goes...

Having 3 sons, when the oldest (ASU Grad)was a Sophmore, he 'sold' us on why he was going to be better off taking Regular than AP, as a Jr. He was making an 82 and an 85, in English and Math, respectively. We agreed, "to boost my GPA and class rank". His Jr year, he managed to get an 83 and 84, in English and Math 'regular' class. Went back to AP his Sr year, and got north of a 90 in each.

Just because Regular seems to be easier, there is a tendancy (I know, not among OUR kids) to take the regular class less seriously, and thereby actually hurting themselves in their prep for college.

My oldest finished 172 out of 530, not even top 25%, and was not only accepted to Texas, A&M, OU and Ariz State, but got a partial scholarship offer from OU and a full academic ride to ASU, BECAUSE of his rigorous schedule and SAT score.

rfc3 son #2 and #3 have no choice but to take Pre-AP/AP classes when available, and while they MAY have ranked higher by taking refular classes, both still maintain A averages, while playing baseball and football.

Not advocating one way or another, as all kids are different, simply one guys story.

Hopefully your coffee has not gotten cold while reading this...good luck to all at the ballfields this weekend.

ok, 'refular' is not a word, but 'regular' is...I was NOT an AP student...

The AP scale is weighted on a higher level depending on your schools grading system. However, NCAA does not accepted weighted scores. I am all for challenging oneself, but if you are not able to maintain good grades in AP classes and feel you can not pass the AP test, you may want to rethink and take concurrent college classes.

My son also attends Jesuit in Houston and has been fortunate enough to receive several merit based scholarships--every single scholarship which he has received is based on an unweighted average--maybe it differs from college to college and you would be smart to contact the specific colleges your son has interest in. In addition, every merit based scholarhip was based on his best ONE single standardized test score--not a combination of tests to come up with a super score...the colleges used the super score for admittance and the single "best" score for scholarship...He still has not heard from U.T. but his school does not rank--his friends from the local high school have received admittance already--

In terms of UT, the honors programs look at AP classes and your resume of activities but we've been told the regular admissions looks at class rank and standardized test scores for the first cut--regardless of how many AP or IB classes you've taken--

Tiger...

Push with all your might, but know when to back down

Tigerbalm your are exactly right. If the student struggles in AP classes he obviously would be better off not taking them.
You are also correct that different schools have different grading systems. In our case our school used the weighted system which in return rewarded our son for taking the more difficult class. It reflected in his class rank which most if not all colleges look at.
This allowed our son to get accepted to the schools he had an interest in going to.

AP classes are not for everyone, in our particular case, it prepared our son for college and time management.

Bottom line,

Academics first, athletics second.
Regardless if it's AP classes or regular classes, do your work, make good grades and everything else will take care of itself!

I had an 04 and now an 08. I have not seen any advantage to AP classes. The 04 took most of the AP course offered with good grades. She would have been much better off taking the dual credit courses instead.

The only disadvantage to duel credit classes are that many of the top universities do not accept the credit. You essentially waste your time.