A very sad situation

I'm aware of a few other schools that play hardball with their recruits as well. One of these days, their tactics are gonna come back and bite them.

Lets get real folks---baseball at the college level is a business---the kid gets hurt playing football and you expect the baseball coach to be cool about it---LOL--he now has scholarship money out there being wasted---folks there is a real world out there not a dream world !!!1

The reality is this: Even if he gives up his scholarship, he could be cut next year.

I would keep my scholarship for this year and know that I at least got one year out of them.

The rest of it can be addressed if/when they refuse to renew him next spring.

This is yet another example of why the one-year sit-out rule being applied to baseball is a travesty. This kid should be able to transfer without penalty.

The one thing I don't know that might change my mind is this: If he gives up his scholarship and transfers right now, would he be eligible at his next school in 2010? Because I learned, in another context, that OSU is on the quarter system and fall classes there have not even started yet.

If that option were available to him, he'd have a tough decision to make. It might depend on whether he thinks he'll ultimately recover well enough to be his old self on the field again.

quote:

Originally posted by Midlo Dad:
Because I learned, in another context, that OSU is on the quarter system and fall classes there have not even started yet.

If that option were available to him, he'd have a tough decision to make. It might depend on whether he thinks he'll ultimately recover well enough to be his old self on the field again.

There is a 14 day rule of attending classes that excludes that semester from counting toward residency, that meaning "part of the one year in waiting"

Since he probably may have just started classes, he would be eligible Fall 2009, all healed up and ready to compete.

I agree that the NLI was given to a healthy player and that he put it at risk playing HS football. I am surprised there isn't an opt out clause ere injuries prior to attending.
I have seen scholarships pulled on guys who got injured at college. One guy was going into his JR year and they didn't renew.

Even MLB has clauses about getting injured doing an activity that puts you at risk.

TR - my problem with what OSU did is not just that they asked him to give up his scholly, but about WHEN they did it.

It wasn't til it late this summer, so he had almost no chance of finding another 4 year school. I spoke to his parents two weeks ago, and at that point he still wasn't sure whether he was going to enroll at OSU or not (yes he did give up the scholly.) I don't know what he decided.

They basically ran roughshod over his future. In his parents' view they showed very little concern about his interests.

Sure, it's a business, fine. So the college coach isn't supposed to look out for the kid's interests.

That's just not a college coach I would want my kid playing for.

It is an unfortunate situation kind of goes with the other thread about playing other sports.

I know very highly ranked players who have gotten hurt their senior year in football or even baseball who the school has honored their NLI, one of which who would be a senior who has never thrown a pitch and has had several surgeries in the process, but on the other hand also know of other players who got hurt before entering school and others who got hurt playing on the team where the school has taken the monies away and roster spots.

College baseball is a business and if the coaches don’t win, they are out, OSU did not do well last year, but I agree that they also should work with the player to balance the business with compassion.

This player has the benefit of having options at this point before school starts, go to OSU and take what little money they are offering him and sit out the freshman year and get cut the sophomore year or go to another school and take his chances, most likely not many if any 4 year schools will have monies at the late summer point or even a roster spot for a player who is questionable, did OSU do this to keep him from getting other options or did they try to put off until they actually knew who was going to show up in their early work and if they had a roster spot to hold, they may never know.

If money is an issue, even though he does not want to go the JC route, that may be his best option to find a quality four year program in the future, if he goes to a four year school now it is a two year commitment at the D1 level, does he want to chance that.

If they are looking for advice, I would cut his losses, go to a JC to rehab and see if he is back at full strength and get to another PAC 10 school after a year if he is qualified and prove to OSU that they made a mistake vs being somewhere he is not wanted.

While it is probably too late for this player, another option to consider would be grey shirting at a Juco- enrolling at less than full time for the fall term and then making the decision about full time enrollment when he sees how his injury progresses. If it needs more time - he stays at part time for the spring. If he can play, then he goes Full time for the spring semester.

Gray shirting allows a student to start school and gain college units while NOT starting the 5 years to play 4 clock.

I know you said he didn't want to go to a JC, but I like the idea of going to a JC as it will give the kid a lot more options. (he should talk to the OSU compliance officer about his options)

Another option might be to transfer at the end of the fall quarter from OSU to a JC, that way he gets units and has an opportunity to survey the JCs to pick one that will fit his needs/personality. If he was good enough to get a scholarship offer from OSU, I am sure their will be many coaches waiting to see him play at a JC.

I think you should be careful advising a guy to go to JC. I know several people who went that route and were not happy. I know there are lots who are but the common complaint is non transferable credits. I sat with a parent who's son went JC for 2 years and then to a 4 year D2 for 2 . He has a ton of credits that weren't accepted. He was a LHP who was on the bubble for signing a ML deal. That route is not for everyone and could do more harm than good.

BBH is correct, you really need to be on top of the progression requirements when you go the JC route, I also know of some players who did not take or did not get good advice from the JC on what classes to take and could not get into what would be considered not very difficult schools to get into academically, because they did not take the right classes, it is even worst trying to get considered for more academically challenging schools.

quote:

I know very highly ranked players who have gotten hurt their senior year in football or even baseball who the school has honored their NLI, one of which who would be a senior who has never thrown a pitch and has had several surgeries in the process, but on the other hand also know of other players who got hurt before entering school and others who got hurt playing on the team where the school has taken the monies away and roster spots.

I know of both sides too. One player at our son's school originally had a scholarship at another Pac-10 school. When he got hurt early in his senior year in HS, the other school pulled the scholarship. Still having lots of time, they contacted our son's school who gave him a scholarship even though they knew he wouldn't play for a year.

We all need to have our eyes open when we get into this thing. It isn't unique to one particular school nor one particular aspect to baseball beyond HS. All of these types of issues come up with colleges, pro ball, agents/advisors, travel teams, etc...

Its always best to find someone (if you can) you can talk too who has played at a school, used a particular advisor, played on a particular travel team, etc...

And even then, it still might be worth the 'risk' you perceive. There is no situation that is perfect. Like all of us...these folks all have their own scars and warts. Just have your eyes open.

quote:

(Also, bringing in 50+ guys in the fall leaves a bad taste in my mouth.)

They have 39 listed on their fall roster

quote:

Originally posted by Homerun04:
BBH is correct, you really need to be on top of the progression requirements when you go the JC route, I also know of some players who did not take or did not get good advice from the JC on what classes to take and could not get into what would be considered not very difficult schools to get into academically, because they did not take the right classes, it is even worst trying to get considered for more academically challenging schools.

College is only as good as you make it. If you don't show enough interest in your own major to know the requirments and which classes will count/transfer you will have problems no matter how good your conseler/coach is

I think the issue is that many going to a JC don't know what their interest are, they get caught up with playing baseball and don't have the structure of high school where you need to take a specific set of courses because they don't know what they want to major in. To get enough units to play, they load up on certain types of courses, say PE or some other fun courses, and find out they are not transferable to the college of their choice and for the major they need to declare.

This issue is not unique to JC’s, some schools have specific courses that are required for their school and when they transfer to another type of school (such as a public to a private school); they may have several units that don’t correspond to the new school.

But that is getting off the subject, but if not addressed, it could make this player's situation worst.

One player went 2 years at a JC with good grades, then 2 years at a 4 year. He didn't have enough to graduate but his 4 years was up. He is starting in year 2 here in Ontario. Hardly any credits transfered. He had to fight to get 5 credits. His dad lamented all those years of BB and studying and he only got 5 credits. Not to mention the money.
Most colleges like to make you do enough to put their stamp on your degree.

I know this is not the popular opinion, but don't kida owe something back to that college, in trying to report as at least the player that signed with the college. It's one thing to sustain an injury from baseball where your trying to improve your game or even weight lifting where you're trying to upgrade physically, but football, motorcycle racing skateboarding, etc. are great risks. That college is investing thousands of dollars in your ability to play. I feel strongly about this as my sons are both extremely fast, one the fastest in his school and were constantly begged to play football by coaches and other parents but baseball was a possible future not football. They wanted to stick to track and baseball and when my oldest graduates this year, his college will not get damaged goods because of any of the activities I mentioned. If he is injured in just day to day stuff or baseball then that is another thing. Then I expect the college to honor the NLI. I feel the real problem was how late Oregon State waited to let him know their displeasure. Unfortunately in the real world if you can't honor your end of the deal due to taking part in dangerous activities you can suffer unwanted consequences. I still feel for the kid but I'm not surprised this happened.

One other thing the family and player found out was very valuable; that OSU was not the place for them, as whatever the coaching staff said in recruiting (i.e., we'll take care of your son, don't worry about a thing) was only if he didn't get hurt.

Why couldn't OSU have promised to offer the scholarship the subsequent year after rehab? The player could have attended a local JC, rehabbed, and then started at OSU.

College sports is in fact a business, but we cannot forget it is also about education and kids lives. Good luck to this player, and stick it to OSU when you play them.

Here in Ca. the JCs are pretty good with transferrable claases. They have IGETSE sheet that tells you what transfers to the UC and state schools and just about most others would fit in(maybe not IVIES)If a player just sees his counselor and stays on track they are just fine. You have to take 12 units of transferrable credit each semester as a qualifier (48 to transfer)
Gen ed is gen ed , no matter where you take it.English 1A and 1B are the same everywhere, science with a lab, history, humanities, social sciences, my son is at a JC with 14 solid transferrable units. Unless the kid is taking a bunch of bogus classes then there should be no problem.you have to follow a list of what you need. SOME do not do this and they are the ones who end up in trouble. sad about the NLI with OSU, but nothing surprises me with recruiting and baseball. Also if you get hurt playing football then thats a chance you took. its too bad but its the way it is at the next level.

quote:

Originally posted by brod:
One other thing the family and player found out was very valuable; that OSU was not the place for them, as whatever the coaching staff said in recruiting (i.e., we'll take care of your son, don't worry about a thing) was only if he didn't get hurt.

Why couldn't OSU have promised to offer the scholarship the subsequent year after rehab? The player could have attended a local JC, rehabbed, and then started at OSU.

College sports is in fact a business, but we cannot forget it is also about education and kids lives. Good luck to this player, and stick it to OSU when you play them.

I actually like the staff at Oregon State U, they are a hard working staff with opportunities that some passed up to stay with the players. We don't know all of what they told the recruit, but it is a high expectation program with its recent success and it is drawing top players who want to play there where they did not a few years ago.

Obviously those within the program will have a different feeling toward the coaching staff than those who could not get into the program or in this case almost in the program. With the changes in the NCAA roster limit rules, it impacts the programs more to keep players as redshirts.

I am confused. They did him a favor, if he began this year and got cut next spring he would have to sit out for a transfer. He has a good option go play at JUCO, try to get better and then have an opportunity to find his way for another scholarship in a few years. What good would sitting on the bench do? Coaches give scholarships for players to play. You are talking major labrum surgery, who would have given him a scholarship?

Does it really matter when they told him, any coach with limited roster and money would not have taken on a player who has had a major injury. Did he think that someone else would give him a chance? He obviously hasn't played much in the past year.

Again I agree with TR, this is business, and for a team that has won 2 championships it becomes bigger business as the expectations are HUGE.

I understand it stinks, but put yurself in the coaches shoes. Was the coach informed all along about the seriousness of the situation? Maybe if it had been a baseball injury the coach would have been more passionate? He has to answer to his boss, would an AD be happy that he was using a scholarship for baseball for a player who might not be able to play playing football? This is why I do beleive that once someone gives something to you, you owe it to them to make sure you remain healthy, even if that means not playing another sport in HS. Seems to me that the player wanted his cake and to eat it to, he didn't think twice about the implications that may follow when he signed up for football? That is THE chance you take and that responsisbility lies on the player.

Rob, you are such a nice person, I understand your compassion, but once your son goes off to play baseball at Duke, you will understand that business is much greater than the game. And it's big business in the ACC as well.
Give KM a hug...

After reading over this thread a couple of things came to mind.
First of all, the coach has to do what is best for his program and the other members of the team. It sounds cold hearted and unfortunate, but unfortunetly that's how it is in college baseball.

A coach told me once that it's so frustrating to spend time recruiting then the players come to school injured, but he also knows that this is how it is in baseball, it's very tough to remain healthy in this game, especially for pitchers. But again this was not a baseball injury.

The player obviously might not have been able to play. He would still be on the roster and not given a redshirt, one year gone. If he transfered and had to sit(which he was told they wouldn't renew his scholarship), two years of eligibility gone. The coach actually saved him from losing eligibility.

Could the coach have kept him for a year? The coach is down one player. Perhaps he now has a few other players, already on the roster, who have injuries and may not play, down a couple more players. These days with shortened schedules, with so many injuries that occur during season, the coach needs to be able to have enough players to get through the season. It's a difficult situation.

One thing though, I do know that OSU brings in more than they need in the fall, so in reality, he may have been looking to cut someone anyway.

It seems as if the player in question qualifies for a medical hardship waiver (medical redshirt) --- Would this not allow him to receive his promised scholarship and at the same time eliminate his scholarship from counting against the 11.7?
Fungo

Fungo - I don't know what the rules are on medical redshirt.

I did talk to the father of Friday. His current situation: he is enrolled at OSU but only part time, which he says means he can transfer without having to sit out a year. So he's looking for another opportunity.

TPM - I do understand the realities of the college baseball world. But I still think OSU mishandled the situation from the start.

First, they had no problem with him playing football. (Lots of kids in Oregon play both sports, partly no doubt because there just isn't much competitive baseball in the fall here. Mike Stutes played both for four years at our HS, and he worked out pretty well for OSU.)

Also, the player might be back to full strength in the spring, and be perfectly able to contribute to a baseball program. He is definite D1 quality - 6-3 lefty firstbaseman. OSU just wasn't willing to take the risk.

OK Fine, but again - the timing DOES matter, and that is my main beef here. If they didn't string him along all summer he would have had time to find a program - maybe even a D3 - to play for. As it is, he was too late to even apply to these schools.

And he just doesn't want to go to a Juco. He wants to be at a 4 year school.

I'm sure this will all work itself out. The reason I brought it up was just say in my view, the program at OSU seems to have changed some in attitude since their success. I know a lot of kids/parents on the team, and I know for a fact that the chemistry last year was not good at all.

That is usually traced back to coaching, in my opinion, and how they treat the players.

quote:

but once your son goes off to play baseball at Duke, you will understand that business is much greater than the game.

TPM - I consider you a friend, but did you intend this to sound as condescending as it does?

Fungo,
While I am pretty sure a redshirt may not count into the 11.7, it counts for the max roster.
Medical hardships are often not given for injuries that take place off of the field, or if a player comes injured. The reason being, now the player gets 5 years and most programs can't afford to hold a player for 5 years anymore.
As far as playing another sport, that's ok, it just is an example of how things do happen and how they can change the course of your future. It's just something to think about. The blame, IMO, shouldn't be placed solely upon the coach.

You may be correct on how coaches change once they begin to have success. They now can pick and choose who comes to play for them, where in the past they had to work real hard for recruiting. Again the realities of college baseball. And yes, they should have let him known sooner, but maybe OSU late fall start time had a lot to do with it. Most of the academic world doesn't run on the quarter system. But then teh player would have had to scramble for another opportunity to play and when we do things hastily it often times doesn't work out. This may, in the end, work out for the best.

I wish the player luck, shoulder injuries are difficult and it takes a long time to get it right.

quote:

Originally posted by Rob Kremer:

quote:

but once your son goes off to play baseball at Duke, you will understand that business is much greater than the game.

TPM - I consider you a friend, but did you intend this to sound as condescending as it does?

Rob,
Sorry, I didn't mean it the way it sounds.
One thing that struck me when son went off to school was about how business driven college baseball has become. We, as parents sometimes don't understand why coaches do what they do for their programs. Once your son becomes involved, you become more involved on a personal level you seem to understand it somewhat more, and it isn't always what we feel is fair.
I remember in 2006 when we went to Omaha, our "ace" put in no time in the super regionals or in Omaha on the mound. Everyone was kind of dumb founded, he played an integral part of why we were there. However, late in the season he began to falter, tired, bad blister on finger that had healed and became unpredictable. No one could believe they didn't put him in, even for short relief. We lost that game, why didn't you put in a guy who worked so hard for 5 years and not let him have the Omaha opportunity? But you learn that is just the way it is, sounds so cold hearted, but the coaches made that decision, as to what they felt was the right one for the team, it didn't matter whether we felt it was the right one or not.

When your sons go off to play anywhere, you most likely will see things done you don't understand, sometimes it even involves our players. Sometimes your son will give you his inside explanations of why it happens, sometimes it makes sense and sometimes it doesn't. Whatever the reason, it's usually done for the team and program, doesn't matter who as a player got the raw end of the deal.

I hope that explains it.

It's a business and you handle it like an adult. No time to feel sorry for anyone. Things are what they are so you either deal with it or not.

quote:

And he just doesn't want to go to a Juco. He wants to be at a 4 year school.

My son was the same way until he transferred to a JC and then wished he'd done it sooner There is nothing wrong with playing or going to a JC, people who sneer or make snide comments about it are just uninformed/ignorant.

Transferring in the spring to another 4 year school seems kind of risky at this point, as most of those schools are working on their rosters with the players in front of them. THis is not to say that he couldn't find the right school, however I could easily see making another mistake by doing this. In my own mind if I weren't going to take the JC option I'd seriously consider sticking at OSU part time thru the spring and trying to make something happen in summer league --- I'd also ask OSU or a friendly pro scout to help place me in a decent summer league ASAP. Summer league is a great way to find out about other schools, and for other schools to find out about him.

While my heart goes out to this kid - obviously a hard worker and has talent - the reality of the situation is that he did get injured and that does limit his choices. He wanted to play football in high school, he wanted to play bb for a 4 year school, he wanted DI, he wanted a top-tier very competitive program. They did not get to that level without making these hard decisions. It stinks for this kid, but part of growing up is realizing that sometimes things happen that are unfortunate and that stink and that we can't control and thus, we don't always get what we want. This kid didn't choose to get hurt, but he did get hurt. So, he may have to go JC or he may have to choose a program that is less competitive where the coaches are ok with risking money on an injured kid. It makes me really mad when these programs over-recruit, but I don't see that in this situation the coach had any other choice. I wish this kid luck and hope that in the end he will have a successful bb college experience in just the right place.

I removed my own post above. On second thought, all I really wanted to say was there are two sides to every story.

Ok so I deleted my last one because I made reference to what you said, which was pretty fair. But it would have looked stupid on my part agreeing but nothing to agree about anymore.

Are we getting silly now?

quote:

Originally posted by Fungo:
It seems as if the player in question qualifies for a medical hardship waiver (medical redshirt) --- Would this not allow him to receive his promised scholarship and at the same time eliminate his scholarship from counting against the 11.7?
Fungo

I spent some time looking through the D1 Manual, and as near as I can see, there is almost no connection between redshirting (medical or otherwise) and a player's status as a counter. An ordinary redshirt simply avoids consuming one of his 4 seasons of eligibility for competition, while a medical redshirt additionally may (but not necessarily or even typically) be permitted 6 years instead of 5 in which to compete the 4 seasons.

Perhaps you are thinking of the provision regarding a student who has suffered an injury or condition so serious that he will never again be able to compete in any sport in college. Such a student can receive aid without being a counter. The only other provision I can see is one to allow aid to a student who has exhausted his eligibility or has became permanently ineligible due to some infraction. Such a student isn't a counter, but also is ineligible to play or practice.

In the case Rob brings up, the player did play baseball as a high school senior, well enough to have his exploits mentioned in the local press. So he presumably isn't a candidate for a medical redshirt anyway.


Rob,

In past years, it would have been fairly easy for OSU to simply keep the player through his freshman year. The only cost to the program was the equivalency and scholarship dollars. Now, any counter must be on the 35 man roster, and only players who are on the roster may practice. So the injured player would keep some walk on from practicing with the team. Given the nature of shoulder injuries, it is probable that the walk on can better help the team over the next years.

From the player's baseball point of view, the only way that he can benefit by keeping the scholarship is to recover enough to make the team in his sophomore year. If he doesn't make the team, but is good enough to play at some other D1, he'll lose a season of eligibility. It's not favorable odds.

So when is the best time to make the decision? I think the coach delayed as long as possible, perhaps in the hope that the player would recover before school started.

quote:

When your sons go off to play anywhere, you most likely will see things done you don't understand, sometimes it even involves our players. Sometimes your son will give you his inside explanations of why it happens, sometimes it makes sense and sometimes it doesn't. Whatever the reason, it's usually done for the team and program, doesn't matter who as a player got the raw end of the deal.

This is very, very true!

But I also kind of look at it slightly differently now. I found I was noticing things I had never noticed before (much more about how pitchers were being used! ). I found I began to be able to predict exacly when a pitcher would be pulled (most especially my son! ). I'm not sure I'll ever view the game in quite the same, naive ways as before.

But geez it was fun!

There's a lot of talk in the thread about stepping up and facing reality as an 'adult.' Fundamentally, I agree. But knowing how very hard it was to 'face reality' when my son didn't pitch in a given weekend or was yanked from a game...it is very hard for me to not feel bad for a family when I read these types of stories. This one is not unique, but again, does this much 'reality' need to come at such a young age?!?! It makes me sad for this family. Its gotta hurt an awful lot.

When Ron Polk spoke to me he made it very clear that if he offered a scholly to a 2 sport athlete tht he did it knowing there was a risk of injury. That made it his responsibility, as the coach, to offer knowing that an injury might happen. He also made it clear that he, the coach, had a responsibility to honor the scholly if he made the offering while knowing the player participated in two sports.

My only point is that the coaches should have a moral obligation own their own part in what happened to the player in regards to playing hardball. If they knew this could happen and did not tell the player that he would lose his opportunity if he got injured, then they are wrong. It amazes me how hard it is for people to do the right thing and how they rationalize poor behavior by telling people welcome to the real world. That does not excuse poor behavior. jmo

quote:

I found I began to be able to predict exacly when a pitcher would be pulled (most especially my son!

JBB: Everybody could predict when ED would be pulled this year: after the 27th out!

Great comment Bighit15. I know of a kid that's being recruited for baseball but is currently playing football for his high school & the coaches that are recruiting him for baseball come scout him in football just to see his athletic ability. During their telephone conversations, the coaches usual reply to him playing two sports is that they incourage it because it keeps them active & out of trouble.

Interesting ! Now it;s the coaches fault.
Anyone who doesn't realize that injury put your scholly at risk is kidding themseves.
If the coach loses his job due to poor success, who is going to stap up and pay his bills ? Every level you reach is a new reality.