Our son will be applying to a college - that if he did not have baseball - he would most likely not get accepted. The coach likes him, wants him to play, and will put him on his list of admits.
quote:I know human resource guys who generally stay away from prestige grads. Something about arrogant and aloof.
BHD - You tend to beat this point to death. So I'm going to respond (again).
We are a research lab. We recruit from all over. On average, we get the best results from the "prestige schools." Of course, there are exceptions in both directions. But we do get the very best results from schools regarded as the best...on average. Given that I did not go to a "prestige school" myself, I do wish it were not this way, but it is.
This, I think, is why parents try to help their kids get into the best schools that they can...beginning in grade school, continuing through HS and on into college. If you live in a weak school district and you have the means, you will probably opt for the private school with the better reputation and results. Same deal for college...if your kid can get into the "prestige schools" and you can afford it, you'll probably do it.
I'm not stating anything radical here.
Our human resources people don't stay away from the prestige schools at all. "Arrogant and aloof?" Sometimes. But to be honest about that, we kind of like "arrogant," or put another way, "confident" or even "cocky." Like baseball players, they tend (on average) to be the best researchers too.
quote:Originally posted by justbaseball:quote:I know human resource guys who generally stay away from prestige grads. Something about arrogant and aloof.
Our human resources people don't stay away from the prestige schools at all. "Arrogant and aloof?" Sometimes. But to be honest about that, we kind of like "arrogant," or put another way, "confident" or even "cocky." Like baseball players, they tend (on average) to be the best researchers too.
Up until a little over a year ago, I worked for one of the ten largest software companies in the world - a company known as BEA Systems (until we were bought by Oracle).
For marketing jobs, our HR department only gave interviews to people who had graduated from a top 10 MBA program. Lesser schools or applicants without an MBA were never given interviews as a matter of policy.
For engineering jobs, unless you were personally referred by an existing employee, you had to have a degree from a top 20 computer science program.
Didn't hurt BEA at all - we had more than enough applicants to chose from - and we built the company from an initial investment of $65 million to $8 Billion dollars in 13 years - one of the most successful startups of all time.
Can you get a great education at a less than top 10 or 20 school? Of course you can - but there are employers who will not even look at your resume.
For what it is worth, I thought it was a bad policy and argued against it. The HR VP had a convincing argument however when one job opening had over 2500 applicants for it - some criteria was needed to filter through the resumes. Eventually, after a period of 4-5 years, the policy was changed.
I know dozens and dozens of very successful people in virtually any field who went to colleges that are not considered academically elite. (And some who never attended college at all.)
But to deny that a degree from an elite college is no advantage is, in my opinion, just ridiculous. It opens doors. It comes with an alumni network of highly placed and influential people who are biased in your favor.
There are all sorts of ways - both tangible and intangible, in which an degree from an academically elite college will benefit you.
Would I rather have a degree from Cal Tech, or Devry Tech?
It is obvious.
But to deny that a degree from an elite college is no advantage is, in my opinion, just ridiculous. It opens doors. It comes with an alumni network of highly placed and influential people who are biased in your favor.
There are all sorts of ways - both tangible and intangible, in which an degree from an academically elite college will benefit you.
Would I rather have a degree from Cal Tech, or Devry Tech?
It is obvious.
I'm reluctant to get into in these sorts of discussions because education is such an individual choice. It's what works right for you, right? Therefore, I think parents and kids need to be honest with themselves about a college where they can be successful. In other words, don't set your kid up for failure by pumping their minds full of how great an Ivy League or other 'elite' university may be only to see them fail there...
For some kids it could be a disaster for them to go to an 'elite' university. If my son is not the academic type (he isn't), but is fortunate enough to get good grades by working the system, what good will it do to see him accepted at a university that is way over his head and his chance of academic failure is high? I'm not judging that State U is less of a university than say, Harvard, because that is not how I measure success in life. I measure success in what a person can do with their life and not just what university they were fortunate enough to graduate from. Or, not graduate from...
I've seen too many people who think because they graduated from this so called great palace of learning called 'X' university that they should have some sort of extra working rights and societal status than the average Joe. Not all of them are like this of course, but enough to make one nauseated. Where I work, I am around them all the time...and you know what? None of them are my boss...
Directing one's kid to a university where he can succeed academically is more important to me than where he goes to get his education. Because I know from working in the real world for thirty years success is not measured by where you went to school, but by what you have accomplished with the tools God has given you.
For some kids it could be a disaster for them to go to an 'elite' university. If my son is not the academic type (he isn't), but is fortunate enough to get good grades by working the system, what good will it do to see him accepted at a university that is way over his head and his chance of academic failure is high? I'm not judging that State U is less of a university than say, Harvard, because that is not how I measure success in life. I measure success in what a person can do with their life and not just what university they were fortunate enough to graduate from. Or, not graduate from...
I've seen too many people who think because they graduated from this so called great palace of learning called 'X' university that they should have some sort of extra working rights and societal status than the average Joe. Not all of them are like this of course, but enough to make one nauseated. Where I work, I am around them all the time...and you know what? None of them are my boss...
Directing one's kid to a university where he can succeed academically is more important to me than where he goes to get his education. Because I know from working in the real world for thirty years success is not measured by where you went to school, but by what you have accomplished with the tools God has given you.
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Well said Sky Chief!
I'm thinking about going back to school and getting an additional degree. I've got my fingers crossed that Hamburger U. will accept me!
It's out in Oak Brook so I'll be able to commute on the PACE bus. And it looks like I'll have to bone up on my French.
I've heard through The Loire Valley Grapevine that there are some good positions opening up in Reykjavik!
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Well said Sky Chief!
I'm thinking about going back to school and getting an additional degree. I've got my fingers crossed that Hamburger U. will accept me!
It's out in Oak Brook so I'll be able to commute on the PACE bus. And it looks like I'll have to bone up on my French.
I've heard through The Loire Valley Grapevine that there are some good positions opening up in Reykjavik!
- "Aimeriez-vous frisez avec cela ?
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Coach W:
I could not agree more - go to a school where you will succeed.
I have seen many kids head off to the east coast to the big Ivy League name schools. Unfortunately, many of these students are on what is jokingly referred to around here by parents as a yo yo trip - the students go off and then they bounce right back home. Nothing to do with baseball or even athletics - just kids who had a bad fit academically or culturally.
What I posted above was simply a reaction to the notion that all schools are regarded equally by employers - simply isn't the case in my experience.
08
I could not agree more - go to a school where you will succeed.
I have seen many kids head off to the east coast to the big Ivy League name schools. Unfortunately, many of these students are on what is jokingly referred to around here by parents as a yo yo trip - the students go off and then they bounce right back home. Nothing to do with baseball or even athletics - just kids who had a bad fit academically or culturally.
What I posted above was simply a reaction to the notion that all schools are regarded equally by employers - simply isn't the case in my experience.
08
Post grad is a totally different situation. If you go to Law , Med or any specific discipline you go to the best school you can. Undergrad is a totally different animal. I believe that if you look at my posts I have said this many times.
I pretty much agree with the pistol packing coach from Mesa.
I pretty much agree with the pistol packing coach from Mesa.
GW,
Only in France would they have a college for hamburgers...only in France...
However, the Inspector Clouseau in the Pink Panther movie was so impresed with the American 'umbarger' he tried to smuggle some through the security checkpoint and got the dogs going after him...this is one of the funniest movie scenes I have ever seen in my life!
And yes, could you upgrade my fries to large?
Only in France would they have a college for hamburgers...only in France...
However, the Inspector Clouseau in the Pink Panther movie was so impresed with the American 'umbarger' he tried to smuggle some through the security checkpoint and got the dogs going after him...this is one of the funniest movie scenes I have ever seen in my life!
And yes, could you upgrade my fries to large?
quote:Originally posted by 08Dad:
What I posted above was simply a reaction to the notion that all schools are regarded equally by employers - simply isn't the case in my experience.
08
Understood...no slight intended...I've unfortunately seen this too...
quote:Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
Post grad is a totally different situation. If you go to Law , Med or any specific discipline you go to the best school you can. Undergrad is a totally different animal. I believe that if you look at my posts I have said this many times.
I pretty much agree with the pistol packing coach from Mesa.
I couldn't agree with you more...I should have clarified myself...undergraduate...
The students from the more prestigious academic undergrad institutions get their foot in the door first at these grad schools.quote:Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
Post grad is a totally different situation. If you go to Law , Med or any specific discipline you go to the best school you can. Undergrad is a totally different animal. I believe that if you look at my posts I have said this many times.
I pretty much agree with the pistol packing coach from Mesa.
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I think I can whittle a few 10 inchers outta' this one. Will that do Sky Chief?
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quote:Originally posted by Coach Waltrip:
And yes, could you upgrade my fries to large?
I think I can whittle a few 10 inchers outta' this one. Will that do Sky Chief?
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Here's the main campus in Illinoisquote:Originally posted by Coach Waltrip:
GW,
Only in France would they have a college for hamburgers...only in France...
However, the Inspector Clouseau in the Pink Panther movie was so impresed with the American 'umbarger' he tried to smuggle some through the security checkpoint and got the dogs going after him...this is one of the funniest movie scenes I have ever seen in my life!
And yes, could you upgrade my fries to large?
There's also a Burger King U in Miami. The Fight'n Whoppers are football rivals of the Big Macs.
Absolutely!!!!
You are the man Gotwood!
You are the man Gotwood!
quote:Originally posted by RJM:Here's the main campus in Illinoisquote:Originally posted by Coach Waltrip:
GW,
Only in France would they have a college for hamburgers...only in France...
However, the Inspector Clouseau in the Pink Panther movie was so impresed with the American 'umbarger' he tried to smuggle some through the security checkpoint and got the dogs going after him...this is one of the funniest movie scenes I have ever seen in my life!
And yes, could you upgrade my fries to large?
There ya go GW, just a short drive across town and you can be tossing them burgers with the best in the world...
Do you think I could get into Ham U. with a GED?
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If you're good at jimmying you can get in with a butterknife!
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If you're good at jimmying you can get in with a butterknife!
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quote:Originally posted by Coach Waltrip:
I've seen too many people who think because they graduated from this so called great palace of learning called 'X' university that they should have some sort of extra working rights and societal status than the average Joe. Not all of them are like this of course, but enough to make one nauseated. Where I work, I am around them all the time...and you know what? None of them are my boss...
Perhaps the fact that they aren't your boss might have more to do with who they are as people, rather than where they went to school.
An idiot doesn't need a sense of entitlement to be an idiot, and a smart guy realizes that the sense of entitlement is a turn off.
There's a lot of people out there that graduated from some very prestigious schools, that we'd never realize, unless we asked them.
quote:Originally posted by CPLZ:quote:Originally posted by Coach Waltrip:
I've seen too many people who think because they graduated from this so called great palace of learning called 'X' university that they should have some sort of extra working rights and societal status than the average Joe. Not all of them are like this of course, but enough to make one nauseated. Where I work, I am around them all the time...and you know what? None of them are my boss...
Perhaps the fact that they aren't your boss might have more to do with who they are as people, rather than where they went to school.
An idiot doesn't need a sense of entitlement to be an idiot, and a smart guy realizes that the sense of entitlement is a turn off.
There's a lot of people out there that graduated from some very prestigious schools, that we'd never realize, unless we asked them.
So true...and I may add that a person does not have to go to an elite school to act like an idiot...I have met some very excellent folks that went to prestigious schools...
My post was not meant as an insult to them and I apologize if my lack of grammatical skills did not convey that message correctly. I should have said 'none of these folks are currently my boss'. Anyway, I'm going to stick to baseball subjects...
IMO school reputation does matter for an undergraduate degree in many technical majors... Engineering... Biology... Physics... Chemistry. A Physics degree from Cal Tech is more valuable than a Physics degree from nearly anywhere else. An engineering degreee from Cal Poly-SLO is more valuable than one from any other Cal State school. Biology degrees from UCSD are gold, etc.
IMO it also is beneficial to surround yourself with other students that are striving to learn and succeed. Public Schools with higher entrance requirements tend to be populated with smart kids that are there to learn. Schools with lower entrance requirements tend to have a lot of students that have not put the effort into high school and may be attending college simply because the parents said they had to. I feel the odds of success are improved if you put yourself around others that want to succeed.
IMO it also is beneficial to surround yourself with other students that are striving to learn and succeed. Public Schools with higher entrance requirements tend to be populated with smart kids that are there to learn. Schools with lower entrance requirements tend to have a lot of students that have not put the effort into high school and may be attending college simply because the parents said they had to. I feel the odds of success are improved if you put yourself around others that want to succeed.
quote:Public Schools with higher entrance requirements tend to be populated with smart kids that are there to learn.
This is true for any school.
For nearly all top-10% HS students, its a big shock when they are suddenly surrounded in freshman calculus class by 14 other kids with equal or better grades and scores.
On a daily basis, this intense level of competition ups the ante.
quote:Originally posted by Blprkfrnks:
IMO school reputation does matter for an undergraduate degree in many technical majors... Engineering... Biology... Physics... Chemistry. A Physics degree from Cal Tech is more valuable than a Physics degree from nearly anywhere else. An engineering degreee from Cal Poly-SLO is more valuable than one from any other Cal State school. Biology degrees from UCSD are gold, etc.
Blpfrk.... Agreed.
Now from the schools that you have listed which one(s) would support a players choice to pursue Engineering, Biology, Physics or Chemistry? By suppport I mean allowing him to skip practices to take a labs necessary to pursue one of these majors and graduate... Maybe Cal Tech based on their past record.
After checking out a gazillion roster profiles from all types of schools, the percentage of players pursuing an above mentioned major and graduating is miniscule. With that in mind. I would absuolutley prefer to have the boy graduate from Harvard with a degree in History than State U. Primarily for the contacts.
These are your options by and large for the kid who plays baseball in college
1. Baseball & pursue a baseball major 97% / At D1 bump this up to 99.75%
2. Be admitted to school and then drop baseball upon admittance 2.80%
3. Play baseball and graduate with a major in Engineering, Chemistry, Physics, Biology 0.20%
quote:Post grad is a totally different situation. If you go to Law , Med or any specific discipline you go to the best school you can
BLP I believe those majors are covered by specific disciplines.
quote:But this was my sons choice to accept this challenge,I didnt tell him to go there,I actually tried to tell him to go to an easier school.Honest to God.But he wanted to give it a shot.And he has said "it is so hard".
Sometimes I get a little confused when parents say this. What is an easy school and what's not. How do you know if it is or isn't easy for the student. Because we as parents look at the school, we decide whether it is easier for them or not. If a student graduates high school with a B or C does this mean he/she couldn't handle the "hard" school, or if a student graduates with an A does this mean some schools would be too easy. As many have said, you get out of school what you put into it. You just might have to put in a little more into some than you do others.
quote:Sometimes I get a little confused when parents say this. What is an easy school and what's not. How do you know if it is or isn't easy for the student. Because we as parents look at the school, we decide whether it is easier for them or not.
Deleted my post as to not confuse anyone.
No we didnt decide.Son did.But considering that 25,000 students apply with only about 3,000 freshmen applicants a year getting in, would say something.Avg. GPA is well over 4.0.That would tell me that is a tough academic school.
If a student is a C student in HS, I would think unless he steps it up,it will be tough at any college to be honest.Especially when you add in baseball.Highschool is not that hard, unless your taking a lot of AP classes.
You do get what you put into it, I am at a state school and I have learned a ton.But kids that go to Harvard,Or Duke (like Rob kremer's son) Ask them what it is like.
And no, having an A in HS doent mean anything if you dont work hard in HS.But there are schools that are easier.
I am watching what my son is doing as a sophmore, and compared to what I am doing at a state school, no comparison,His is harder.
There is a difference in state school education in Ca. and a UC in Ca. look at the difficulty to get into the UC.It is competitive out there, and there are many kids I have classes with that cant write a cohesive paragraph.The professors demand more. Occasionally you can get a tought professor at a state school as well but its the work thats different.
What is assigned, what is expected.And I again agree you can get a great education at a state schol.My point was not to argue about which is a better education, but to tell parents not to force their kids into what is known to be a very tough academic school if it is not what they want.
quote:Originally posted by workinghard:
As many have said, you get out of school what you put into it. You just might have to put in a little more into some than you do others.
I honestly believe (as opposed to those times when I dishonestly believe
), that's not true. Junior chose a school that was over his head, never would have been admitted without a FB over 90. But, he believed he could get it done...and he has.
On the other hand, he knows plenty of guys there that are way further up the class rank...that never crack a book. They just have God given smarts, don't have to put the effort in, and cruise. I don't believe for a second that my son will over achieve these others in life simply because he put more into it.
From my understanding, what I was told, the difficulty of the classes can be based upon average SAT scores of those enrolled, not GPA.
So with that in mind, fanofgame brings up a good point, if your son scored 800,900 or even 1100 on his SAT and the average score is 1250, he may struggle with the course content.
This is what I was told many years ago from son's guidance counselor, which helped him to decide what schools may be more difficult for him. He was a good student, but no IVY leaguer, so he knew that those type of schools might not be in his best academic interest (besides being too cold
).
We hear good stories about how well our sons do in school, most of the time because they know in order to keep their scholarships, stay playing, they have to work very hard, so often times the average student becomes the above average student.
But you would be surprised, there are many baseball players that struggle semester after semester, they just got themselves over their head, poor time management and other interests get in the way. My son had some friends on the team that were frequently sent back to required study hall. I think that is why mine did well, he hated having to report there 5 nights a week for a whole semester.
So with that in mind, fanofgame brings up a good point, if your son scored 800,900 or even 1100 on his SAT and the average score is 1250, he may struggle with the course content.
This is what I was told many years ago from son's guidance counselor, which helped him to decide what schools may be more difficult for him. He was a good student, but no IVY leaguer, so he knew that those type of schools might not be in his best academic interest (besides being too cold
).We hear good stories about how well our sons do in school, most of the time because they know in order to keep their scholarships, stay playing, they have to work very hard, so often times the average student becomes the above average student.
But you would be surprised, there are many baseball players that struggle semester after semester, they just got themselves over their head, poor time management and other interests get in the way. My son had some friends on the team that were frequently sent back to required study hall. I think that is why mine did well, he hated having to report there 5 nights a week for a whole semester.
CPLZ-
I think you are misunderstanding what I'm saying.
I'm not talking about overachieving or doing better than others. What I'm saying is if you go in only putting in C attitude work ethics, then you're probably only gonna get a C at best. If you put in A efforts, you might pull out a B or possibly an A.
Some schools a C effort may only get you a D. That's what I mean by those schools you might have to put in a little more.
Just like baseball, or life for that matter, the more you put into it, the better the results.
I think you are misunderstanding what I'm saying.
I'm not talking about overachieving or doing better than others. What I'm saying is if you go in only putting in C attitude work ethics, then you're probably only gonna get a C at best. If you put in A efforts, you might pull out a B or possibly an A.
Some schools a C effort may only get you a D. That's what I mean by those schools you might have to put in a little more.
Just like baseball, or life for that matter, the more you put into it, the better the results.
quote:Junior chose a school that was over his head, never would have been admitted without a FB over 90. But, he believed he could get it done...and he has.
Is it possible it wasn't as tough as he imagined it was?
I found college no harder than HS but more interesting because of the courses I took.
A lot of the difficulty in college depends on the courses you Major in. Easy for us was picking courses that were know around campus to be easy compared to other options.
Hate to break it to you but you can pass almost any college course by buying and studying old exams.
quote:Hate to break it to you but you can pass almost any college course by buying and studying old exams.
That is probably as basic an honor code violation as you could find at the US Military Academy, and will have your son headed home with more than a fair amount of haste and distaste.
quote:That is probably as basic an honor code violation as you could find at the US Military Academy, and will have your son headed home with more than a fair amount of haste and distaste.
Really ?
Coles publication made a fortune selling questions from old exams.
quote:Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
Hate to break it to you but you can pass almost any college course by buying and studying old exams.
That's called cheating and can't one lose their scholarship for that?
On another note, most baseball players do take the easy way out by taking easier courses of study.
quote:That's called cheating and can't one lose their scholarships for that?
Even profs used to advise that you study old exams.
Is "used to" the key word here?
I don't remember any of my profs telling me that.
Bad advice.
I don't remember any of my profs telling me that.
Bad advice.
Actually profs recommend it because if you study old papers you will see what is important in the course. If you study old papers you will understand the key elements of the course. Sound intelligent to me. Its not just about passing an exam. Its about understanding what you are learning. Kills 2 birds with one stone.
Maybe using Bell Curves is cheating to bring student marks up..
quote:Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
Maybe using Bell Curves is cheating to bring student marks up..
Ya just gotta keep the good test takers out of the class to keep that Bell in perspective!
The Bell Curve is a profs best friend.
It is very important that they have an acceptable pass rate in a class they teach. I have been in classes where only a few pass the actual test. The good old Bell Curve is used to create an acceptable range of marks and pass rates.
In college a prof who has unacceptable rates is on the cuff.
It is very important that they have an acceptable pass rate in a class they teach. I have been in classes where only a few pass the actual test. The good old Bell Curve is used to create an acceptable range of marks and pass rates.
In college a prof who has unacceptable rates is on the cuff.