bb1,
So in transfering, you and your son think he is not going to face the same issues? If you think the coaches are bad, a better coach will not put up with that at all. What do you want them to refine that he already has? A 4 seam? A curve?
Seems apparant to me, your son wants to rely on what he thinks is best for him to throw in his comfort zone, it doesn't work that way as you get older and teh game gets faster, kids get bigger and better.
When my son went to college he really didn't have any defined curve or slider, it was a slurvey ball. It took a lot of hard work to break out of using that pitch that was successful to develop two distinct pitches. Lots of failure before success. He also had to change his slot, from where it was comfortable to where it would be more successful. That's just the way it is.
In pro ball when you have a weaker pitch, some games that's all you are allowed to throw, and you don't do well. Your sons coaches are using practice to try to make changes, he just wants practice to prove to them he is successful at what little he has to offer.
You have excuses as to why the coaches are not good (football guys, they want them all throwing the same pitch). The way I see it, your son just wants to do what he wants, and in the game of baseball, that doesn't work, for anyone. It inhibits his growth as a player.
Seems he has a choice, do it his way, he will remain as a JV player because he will not be able to face older faster, smarter hitters as a pitcher (not sure about him as a hitter) or take suggestions (get him some lessons) learn now before it's too late and never advance to play the college game. JMO.
quote:One of our better players didn't come out last year as a junior because he didn't like the coach.
Great reason. Is this kid in for a rude awakening. I am sure he will quit his job later on in life because he dont like his boss.
As far as ACE not going out Ask him why? He will give you an answer. ask him to think it over. If he does not come back. Move on
TPM
Tell me where is it written that all coaches are good? That they are not just there for the little extra cash they do get paid.
Where were they when he was doing his off season (since August) training with a San Diego Padres scout. Where were they when he was training with a current triple A pitcher? Where were they when he was doing long toss and lifting weights to get bigger, stronger faster? Where were they when he did his core training?
They have him a very short period of time through out the year. The rest of the time, he's the one driving himself to get better. He's the one who went on his own because other players on his team train very little or not at all during the off season. Which is fine if all you want to do is play in high school. Yet for this short period of time they do see him they try and make him be the same as everyone else. The same as those kids who don't train.
I didn't want to bring lessons into this but he does and continues to get pitching lessons. If he needed hitting he would get that too, so far it is not necessary.
While I know you have a lot of experience and background going through this with your son it is easy to say he is wrong. Believe me if I thought he was I would tell him. That is why I reach out to people like yourself for opinions and other ways of looking at things. Nobody is perfect including coaches and we all see things differently which is great.
He will play in college somewhere barring injury because he has the drive, PROPER training and the grades. Right now he throws harder then when his pitching coach signed with Xavier out of high school and he's a sophomore and left handed.
What level he plays at as a sophomore really doesn't matter and as a matter of fact I suggested he stay with his friends and have fun.
JV is fine for now. They'll come and get him when they need him.
Tell me where is it written that all coaches are good? That they are not just there for the little extra cash they do get paid.
Where were they when he was doing his off season (since August) training with a San Diego Padres scout. Where were they when he was training with a current triple A pitcher? Where were they when he was doing long toss and lifting weights to get bigger, stronger faster? Where were they when he did his core training?
They have him a very short period of time through out the year. The rest of the time, he's the one driving himself to get better. He's the one who went on his own because other players on his team train very little or not at all during the off season. Which is fine if all you want to do is play in high school. Yet for this short period of time they do see him they try and make him be the same as everyone else. The same as those kids who don't train.
I didn't want to bring lessons into this but he does and continues to get pitching lessons. If he needed hitting he would get that too, so far it is not necessary.
While I know you have a lot of experience and background going through this with your son it is easy to say he is wrong. Believe me if I thought he was I would tell him. That is why I reach out to people like yourself for opinions and other ways of looking at things. Nobody is perfect including coaches and we all see things differently which is great.
He will play in college somewhere barring injury because he has the drive, PROPER training and the grades. Right now he throws harder then when his pitching coach signed with Xavier out of high school and he's a sophomore and left handed.
What level he plays at as a sophomore really doesn't matter and as a matter of fact I suggested he stay with his friends and have fun.
JV is fine for now. They'll come and get him when they need him.
bb1,
Whatever. However, you just seem to have lots of issues as to why your son and you are unhappy, and you want sympathy, there's no crying in baseball.
Maybe I can't figure it out, but that's not important, it has to be your son to figure that out. My son's HS coach was a nice guy, not coach of the year, but if he was told to do something, he did it. Period.
Fill out the transfer papers. That's what you want to hear right?
Whatever. However, you just seem to have lots of issues as to why your son and you are unhappy, and you want sympathy, there's no crying in baseball.
Maybe I can't figure it out, but that's not important, it has to be your son to figure that out. My son's HS coach was a nice guy, not coach of the year, but if he was told to do something, he did it. Period.
Fill out the transfer papers. That's what you want to hear right?
It is always difficult to come across in a post. There always seems to be more to add. There will always be issues no matter where you go and you can't always run away from them. The transfer papers have been filled out but have not been submitted. Long before I posted here.
I wonder if it is not best for him to go through this now to be more prepared in the future.
It is also true that things will not change under this coaching staff and if he choses to stay then he should know what to expect.
It sounds like your son had a great experience and had fun. Which is the way it should be forget about all the BS and politics and play the game. No sympathy required. Now back to the original post of ACE not coming out.
I wonder if it is not best for him to go through this now to be more prepared in the future.
It is also true that things will not change under this coaching staff and if he choses to stay then he should know what to expect.
It sounds like your son had a great experience and had fun. Which is the way it should be forget about all the BS and politics and play the game. No sympathy required. Now back to the original post of ACE not coming out.
bb1:
The solution is simple... Just come play for me! I lost one good player (that's what started this whole thing) and then I get one good player.
See how simple things are: Tomorrow we solve Iraq!
Have a good day everyone!
The solution is simple... Just come play for me! I lost one good player (that's what started this whole thing) and then I get one good player.
See how simple things are: Tomorrow we solve Iraq!
Have a good day everyone!
quote:Originally posted by bb1:
TPM
Tell me where is it written that all coaches are good? That they are not just there for the little extra cash they do get paid.
Where were they when he was doing his off season (since August) training with a San Diego Padres scout. Where were they when he was training with a current triple A pitcher? Where were they when he was doing long toss and lifting weights to get bigger, stronger faster? Where were they when he did his core training?
They have him a very short period of time through out the year. The rest of the time, he's the one driving himself to get better. He's the one who went on his own because other players on his team train very little or not at all during the off season. Which is fine if all you want to do is play in high school. Yet for this short period of time they do see him they try and make him be the same as everyone else. The same as those kids who don't train.
I didn't want to bring lessons into this but he does and continues to get pitching lessons. If he needed hitting he would get that too, so far it is not necessary.
While I know you have a lot of experience and background going through this with your son it is easy to say he is wrong. Believe me if I thought he was I would tell him. That is why I reach out to people like yourself for opinions and other ways of looking at things. Nobody is perfect including coaches and we all see things differently which is great.
He will play in college somewhere barring injury because he has the drive, PROPER training and the grades. Right now he throws harder then when his pitching coach signed with Xavier out of high school and he's a sophomore and left handed.
What level he plays at as a sophomore really doesn't matter and as a matter of fact I suggested he stay with his friends and have fun.
JV is fine for now. They'll come and get him when they need him.
I don't believe she ever said that all coaches were good. Because not all of them are. But neither are all the players who play "select ball" and "travel ball" and "work out with a triple A pitcher", etc.
Just because you bust your tail does not mean you have the talent that is needed! I'm not saying whether he does or he doesn't. You're trying to say that because he does all this extra stuff, that they should be coming to him and bowing down to him.
With the attitude that I've read here, they'll never "need" him and therefore they may just let him rot.
TrojanSkipper,
Kansas is not that far away. I'm sure you'd give him some great guidiance. Sorry we got off topic.
My brother was a terrific baseball player but had other interests mainly cars and girls. The coach used to come and pick him up to get to the field.
Eventually though girls and cars won out in that order. Let him be. If he comes back then it's because he wants to be there.
Kansas is not that far away. I'm sure you'd give him some great guidiance. Sorry we got off topic.
My brother was a terrific baseball player but had other interests mainly cars and girls. The coach used to come and pick him up to get to the field.
Eventually though girls and cars won out in that order. Let him be. If he comes back then it's because he wants to be there.
I only wish you could be in his shoes for one day. The tune would change.
It all gets better between the lines.
quote:Originally posted by bb1:
I only wish you could be in his shoes for one day. The tune would change.
I never wanted to be in son's shoes for one day, he had to learn to work out his own issues. There were many times he was not happy, trust me.
Don't always assume that because things work out their aren't issues. As a sophmore and junior my son was not allowed to hit, he only played in games where he pitched. He most likely was the best hitter on the team, he never said a word or thought to go looking where he could play everyday. When he was under his HS coach, he did what was asked, when he played for his travel coach (much better coach), he did what he was asked. I never heard him say ONCE, this is not how I do it for my travel ball coach. He made his adjustments.
I see it the way bulldog does, because your son goes that extra mile, you and feel they should allow him to do what he thinks is best. That doesn't always work. If your son has to rely soley on his HS coaches for recommendations, you don't want him labled uncoachable.
The biggest adjustment a player has to make is learning to adjust to those above him, whether you feel it's good or bad. No offense to anyone, taking all of the reasons given why players quit that is another reason they just don't want to adjust. That's just an opinion.
TPM
Thank you for the last post. It makes a lot of sense and now maybe we are getting somewhere.
Thank you for the last post. It makes a lot of sense and now maybe we are getting somewhere.
The biggest adjustment a player has to make is learning to adjust to those above him, whether you feel it's good or bad. No offense to anyone, taking all of the reasons given why players quit that is another reason they just don't want to adjust.
Hits the nail on the head. The game of baseball is about adjustments. pitchers adjust to hitters hitters adjust to pitchers etc etc so it seems logical that players adjust to coaches. a word of advice to everybody. Deal with it. I played I coached. As a player I had coaches that were on you all the time and some who were laid back sometimes called the nice guys. I have to say the coaches particularly one who was demanding and let you know where you stand was the greatest influence. Lost on all this is how coaches have to adjust to players you know pat on the back or kick in the butt.
bb1 your son has to deal with it. Do you think that transferring him is the best way to deal with it? if he plays long enough he will play for several coaches. to think that he will like them all and everything will be great all the time is not realistic. I hope things work out.
Hits the nail on the head. The game of baseball is about adjustments. pitchers adjust to hitters hitters adjust to pitchers etc etc so it seems logical that players adjust to coaches. a word of advice to everybody. Deal with it. I played I coached. As a player I had coaches that were on you all the time and some who were laid back sometimes called the nice guys. I have to say the coaches particularly one who was demanding and let you know where you stand was the greatest influence. Lost on all this is how coaches have to adjust to players you know pat on the back or kick in the butt.
bb1 your son has to deal with it. Do you think that transferring him is the best way to deal with it? if he plays long enough he will play for several coaches. to think that he will like them all and everything will be great all the time is not realistic. I hope things work out.
bb1 it's obvious you are not happy with your son's high school coaches. Let me ask you - if you had it your way what would you want them to do in terms of coaching your son, other players and other things?
I just want to know what you are looking for.
I just want to know what you are looking for.
All three of my high school coaches (three sports) were descendents of female dogs. I guess that's why I have a hard time listening to whining. My son was on a travel basketball team with a coach bordering on emotionally abusive with him. It was becoming obvious my son and his son were going to be competing for the same position in high school. The guy is also the JV coach. I asked my son if he's going to let a coach run him out of a game he loves. I also asked him what he's going to do to deal with situation, then (8th grade) and in high school when he may have to play for the guy again.
Without going into details of my son's plan he told me he's going to work so hard to be the best player he can be, the varsity coach will ask the JV coach what the hell is going on if he isn't playing. It started with beating the other kid out for a starting position on the freshman team.
To me this beats the hell out of making excuses and running away. And the high school freshman coach? A real wack job! My son tells me he listens to the message and doesn't take the delivery personally. He said getting emotionally beat on by the coach is part of playing point guard. It's like being the QB.
Most importantly kids who can tough it out, overcome difficult situations and win will become successful adults. Once a person does something once it becomes easier the next time. This includes quitting.
Without going into details of my son's plan he told me he's going to work so hard to be the best player he can be, the varsity coach will ask the JV coach what the hell is going on if he isn't playing. It started with beating the other kid out for a starting position on the freshman team.
To me this beats the hell out of making excuses and running away. And the high school freshman coach? A real wack job! My son tells me he listens to the message and doesn't take the delivery personally. He said getting emotionally beat on by the coach is part of playing point guard. It's like being the QB.
Most importantly kids who can tough it out, overcome difficult situations and win will become successful adults. Once a person does something once it becomes easier the next time. This includes quitting.
Coach2709
I think the one thing is do not try and make every kid the same. Throw the same way, hit the same way, etc. The "cookie cutter" approach. Make suggestions to try doing things this way or that way, if after making these suggestions a player does not follow them then if he doesn't produce it's his fault. If he does then maybe they were both right.
Show you care about the kids, that you watch pitch counts closely, that you watch for signs of them getting tired. My son was allowed to throw 148 pitches one game last year. He was allowed to pitch with only 48hrs between starts. The head coach said to me and this is a direct quote " Just so you know if he ever plays for me I will throw him as often and as long as I want".
I think what it boils down to is trust, and because of the things mentioned above and some not, there isn't very much trust and it is sad.
I think the one thing is do not try and make every kid the same. Throw the same way, hit the same way, etc. The "cookie cutter" approach. Make suggestions to try doing things this way or that way, if after making these suggestions a player does not follow them then if he doesn't produce it's his fault. If he does then maybe they were both right.
Show you care about the kids, that you watch pitch counts closely, that you watch for signs of them getting tired. My son was allowed to throw 148 pitches one game last year. He was allowed to pitch with only 48hrs between starts. The head coach said to me and this is a direct quote " Just so you know if he ever plays for me I will throw him as often and as long as I want".
I think what it boils down to is trust, and because of the things mentioned above and some not, there isn't very much trust and it is sad.
I believe that this thread has evloved into a very rational discussion of the complex reasons why high school players that love baseball nonetheless don't want to play for a particular high school or a particular coach. There have been plenty of examples from states other than my own that have added to the discourse and I really hesitate about invoking a point of privilege here and now for fear of redirecting the discussion into a non-productive area as it appeared headed from my perspective when I imbedded my first post. However, as I got personally called out for my earlier post by both coach2709 and fanofgame, I feel compelled to respond to them.
fanofgame: you begin your post on page 2 of the thread by asking me "whats your point?" I thought the first point I was trying to make was obvious but in sentences 5 & 6 of your post you make that point for me. To quote you "some kids don't like their coaches and thats why they don't play. sometimes there are a lot of politics." It is interesting to me that you did not feel the need to state this TRUTH in your first post found on page 1 of this thread. In that post you seem quick to blame the parents for kids not playing but there is not even a hint in your first post that any coach might ever be at fault in a young man's decision to quit playing or never start playing high school baseball. Glad to see that my post helped you come around to agree with my point.
The second point I was trying to make was to respond to something in your first post that got picked up by others. You conclude your first post by saying "just think there is a generation of instant gratification and they want it now and don't want to earn it." You come pretty close to calling an entire generation losers IMHO. But even if that was not your specific intent, you fired up TRhit to agree with you with his "Seems typical of today's culture does it not" and his SAD SAD SAD ending. Then his legions were coming to join in prepared for the culture wars and I just thought it was time to point out that young men of the same age and the same or similar priorities had been making these same decisions FOR GENERATIONS PAST. And that those who were saying it was all the fault of this generation of young men might want to take a look in the mirror.
Those were my "points". Take them or leave them as you please.
coach2709. I assume because you sport the WVU logo in your posts you have some connection with my alma mater West Virginia University. In your post immediately following mine, your first sentence was to "thank" me "for the thrashing of all of us all over the United States." I have a serious problem with this type of statement. First, it reeks of sarcasm and I really don't believe you are actually thanking me. But if I am wrong, and I had actually "thrashed" or trashed anyone other than the two very misguided coaches to whom I made reference in that post [which I did not] I would be pleased to say you are welcome.
Second, you make it personal by using the phrase "all of us" like it is me against all of you; whoever all of you is or are. When you speak about "us" do you mean all coaches that call kids who won't play for them or they cut from "their team" losers behind their back to other adults or are you speaking of only those coaches that just think those kids are losers and don't really talk about it unless asked by recruiters, etc.?
Let me put this very directly. If either one of those "us" shoes fits, I, for one, would not be proud wearing it.
But I tried to give you the beneifit of the doubt there and assumed the "us" you were joining yourself up with were all the coaches who do not think of young men that quit or never play for them as losers. But then, I thought, you have missed the whole point of my "tirade" as you called it. My point had nothing to do with the word loser but with the reason why a coach doesn't try to find out exactly WHY teenagers that love playing baseball don't want to play for HIM? And why that coach might rationalize a miriad of other reasons for that young man's decision that are the fault of the kid or his parents or society in general. How, apparently it would never occur to such a coach to ask if there was anything that could have been done better in the past or could still be done BY HIM to get that "ace" back out there.
Then you say something that I find very hard to belive. You say the following:
"There are quitters and losers out there. They quit and are bums every day of their life but we shouldn't categorize every kid like that. This is definitely a case by case basis. I agree with you on that."
PLEASE DO NOT PUT WORDS INTO MY MOUTH. I NEVER EVER SAID OR HINTED THAT I EVER CALLED ANY KID EVER A QUITTER OR A LOSER OR A BUM. I WAS QUOTING OTHER COACHES WHO SAID THAT ABOUT YOUNG MEN THAT I KNEW WERE DEFINITELY NOT QUITTERS OR LOSERS OR BUMS.
Did you really mean to say that determining whether a young man playing baseball but not for you is a loser, a quitter and a bum is a "case by case basis" for a coach. Or are you speaking of teenagers in general? Do you actually think about those kinds of characterizations concerning anyone under the age of 20?
TW344
fanofgame: you begin your post on page 2 of the thread by asking me "whats your point?" I thought the first point I was trying to make was obvious but in sentences 5 & 6 of your post you make that point for me. To quote you "some kids don't like their coaches and thats why they don't play. sometimes there are a lot of politics." It is interesting to me that you did not feel the need to state this TRUTH in your first post found on page 1 of this thread. In that post you seem quick to blame the parents for kids not playing but there is not even a hint in your first post that any coach might ever be at fault in a young man's decision to quit playing or never start playing high school baseball. Glad to see that my post helped you come around to agree with my point.
The second point I was trying to make was to respond to something in your first post that got picked up by others. You conclude your first post by saying "just think there is a generation of instant gratification and they want it now and don't want to earn it." You come pretty close to calling an entire generation losers IMHO. But even if that was not your specific intent, you fired up TRhit to agree with you with his "Seems typical of today's culture does it not" and his SAD SAD SAD ending. Then his legions were coming to join in prepared for the culture wars and I just thought it was time to point out that young men of the same age and the same or similar priorities had been making these same decisions FOR GENERATIONS PAST. And that those who were saying it was all the fault of this generation of young men might want to take a look in the mirror.
Those were my "points". Take them or leave them as you please.
coach2709. I assume because you sport the WVU logo in your posts you have some connection with my alma mater West Virginia University. In your post immediately following mine, your first sentence was to "thank" me "for the thrashing of all of us all over the United States." I have a serious problem with this type of statement. First, it reeks of sarcasm and I really don't believe you are actually thanking me. But if I am wrong, and I had actually "thrashed" or trashed anyone other than the two very misguided coaches to whom I made reference in that post [which I did not] I would be pleased to say you are welcome.
Second, you make it personal by using the phrase "all of us" like it is me against all of you; whoever all of you is or are. When you speak about "us" do you mean all coaches that call kids who won't play for them or they cut from "their team" losers behind their back to other adults or are you speaking of only those coaches that just think those kids are losers and don't really talk about it unless asked by recruiters, etc.?
Let me put this very directly. If either one of those "us" shoes fits, I, for one, would not be proud wearing it.
But I tried to give you the beneifit of the doubt there and assumed the "us" you were joining yourself up with were all the coaches who do not think of young men that quit or never play for them as losers. But then, I thought, you have missed the whole point of my "tirade" as you called it. My point had nothing to do with the word loser but with the reason why a coach doesn't try to find out exactly WHY teenagers that love playing baseball don't want to play for HIM? And why that coach might rationalize a miriad of other reasons for that young man's decision that are the fault of the kid or his parents or society in general. How, apparently it would never occur to such a coach to ask if there was anything that could have been done better in the past or could still be done BY HIM to get that "ace" back out there.
Then you say something that I find very hard to belive. You say the following:
"There are quitters and losers out there. They quit and are bums every day of their life but we shouldn't categorize every kid like that. This is definitely a case by case basis. I agree with you on that."
PLEASE DO NOT PUT WORDS INTO MY MOUTH. I NEVER EVER SAID OR HINTED THAT I EVER CALLED ANY KID EVER A QUITTER OR A LOSER OR A BUM. I WAS QUOTING OTHER COACHES WHO SAID THAT ABOUT YOUNG MEN THAT I KNEW WERE DEFINITELY NOT QUITTERS OR LOSERS OR BUMS.
Did you really mean to say that determining whether a young man playing baseball but not for you is a loser, a quitter and a bum is a "case by case basis" for a coach. Or are you speaking of teenagers in general? Do you actually think about those kinds of characterizations concerning anyone under the age of 20?
TW344
TW first I grew up in southern West Virginia and while I did not attend WVU in Morgantown I have made many trips up there to support the Mountaineers and still support them although I don't go to the games.
Now here is some stuff you wrote when you posted the first time
You just said "you all" well that means pretty much everyone before your post. When you say "have got me fired up and I need to get some things off my chest" means either you agree with what we said and want to contribute OR you disagree with us and want to point out our wrong ideas. I think it's obvious that it's the latter (no sarcasm since you have a hard time picking it out).
In your first big paragraph you tell a nice story (once again no sarcasm) about how you got some kids to play well against the high school team. That's great but you are talking about 15 or so kids 20 - 25 years ago. IMHO you can't apply that to the situation of what we are talking about. Obviously you think it can and that's fine.
In your second paragraph you enlighten us to the fact that kids quit and it might not be their fault. Then you go back to your story about the mid 1980's and how this high school coach is not very good because he called them losers. Once again a small sample from a very long time ago to use for comparison to the topic we had going.
So we have 14 or so posts from all over the United States saying kids are quitting and not playing baseball in the 2000's yet you want to preach about how a bad coach in central WV in 1984 was terrible in calling kids losers? Not really seeing the connection here - sorry (once again no sarcasm because I don't see how it is really all that relevant). Now if you had provided information from all over the US from 1984 then yes your point of how kids have not changed then yes I would have seen the point.
Ok I went back and reread all the posts before yours and NONE of them called any kid a loser or quitter. They said they have quit but not a quitter - huge difference there. Did people point out that there are other reasons why kids have quit - yes they did - does that mean they are calling them quitters and losers? Not in the least. Face it in 1984 kids didn't have the video game access or TV access or internet access like they do now. If you don't think that plays a factor in kids quitting then you havve never met the real 2000 generation. Things have changed and kids are different. Go into any classroom and see if it compares to your 1984 kids.
You are right here and others even expressed this point of view before your post as well. We are not arguing this. Some kids will not play for certain coaches it's been like this for a long time.
Your last big paragraph is another story about a dumb high school coach because he kicked off some kids and one of them was a kid you liked. I want to know what the kid did to force the coach to throw him off the team. You say it's because upperclassmen were tossed to have younger kids fill out the startting positions. Not enough information here for the rest of us to make an accurate assesment.
This isn't a very nice statement - I can detect sarcasm fairly well.
Now this from my response that you have quoted above
I think these two quotes show that we just totally missed each other's meanings of what we were trying to put.
I am not saying that you said this. First I made the statement that there are quitters and losers in the world. You cannot deny this fact and I am simply bringing it to your attention. Now as for the rest I am saying that all the previous posts were discussing WHY kids quit - never said the cases prior were quitters. As for the last part I implied from your response that you need to look at a kid quitting a team on a case by case basis. You did not say that but that is the meaning I took from your post. Now I think it should be a case by case basis to determine if a kid has valid reasons to quit or not - now do you agree or disagree with that?
Here is what I think it comes down to - you had a problem with two high school coaches in the 1980's and not too long ago. You found some kids you liked and connected with. They end up not playing for the high school team because they ended up not liking the coach as well or they got tossed. So now you get on here and read about high school coaches and parents and fans talking about why kids quit and you want to bring in your two cents about kids possibly not liking the high school coach - which was already pointed out by the way. You tell two stories that make a good point about ONE of the reasons why kids quit but get ticked at the previous posts when they put about other reasons. You are basically saying the only reason kids quit is because they don't like the coach.
Now as for your first post being a tirade - how could someone not take it as one? When you post in all caps it implies "yelling" or really wanting to emphasize a point.
Now here is some stuff you wrote when you posted the first time
quote:OK. Now you all have got me fired up and I need to get some things off my chest.
You just said "you all" well that means pretty much everyone before your post. When you say "have got me fired up and I need to get some things off my chest" means either you agree with what we said and want to contribute OR you disagree with us and want to point out our wrong ideas. I think it's obvious that it's the latter (no sarcasm since you have a hard time picking it out).
In your first big paragraph you tell a nice story (once again no sarcasm) about how you got some kids to play well against the high school team. That's great but you are talking about 15 or so kids 20 - 25 years ago. IMHO you can't apply that to the situation of what we are talking about. Obviously you think it can and that's fine.
In your second paragraph you enlighten us to the fact that kids quit and it might not be their fault. Then you go back to your story about the mid 1980's and how this high school coach is not very good because he called them losers. Once again a small sample from a very long time ago to use for comparison to the topic we had going.
So we have 14 or so posts from all over the United States saying kids are quitting and not playing baseball in the 2000's yet you want to preach about how a bad coach in central WV in 1984 was terrible in calling kids losers? Not really seeing the connection here - sorry (once again no sarcasm because I don't see how it is really all that relevant). Now if you had provided information from all over the US from 1984 then yes your point of how kids have not changed then yes I would have seen the point.
quote:It is almost inevitable that some members of an older generation have a tendency to look at the present generation of high school age athletes as unique. As if they are so very different from the previous generations and most certainly different from THEIR GENERATION. They are quitters, losers, video game players, they have other priorities and if their highest priority is not baseball, they are being disloyal to their school and their teammates.
Ok I went back and reread all the posts before yours and NONE of them called any kid a loser or quitter. They said they have quit but not a quitter - huge difference there. Did people point out that there are other reasons why kids have quit - yes they did - does that mean they are calling them quitters and losers? Not in the least. Face it in 1984 kids didn't have the video game access or TV access or internet access like they do now. If you don't think that plays a factor in kids quitting then you havve never met the real 2000 generation. Things have changed and kids are different. Go into any classroom and see if it compares to your 1984 kids.
quote:They are not the first generation to be misunderstood by an older generation and I am sure they will not be the last. But it is rather obvious to me that good baseball players that love this game have been deciding who they want to play for and who they don't want to play for a long time and that will continue as long as baseball is played by teenage boys.
You are right here and others even expressed this point of view before your post as well. We are not arguing this. Some kids will not play for certain coaches it's been like this for a long time.
Your last big paragraph is another story about a dumb high school coach because he kicked off some kids and one of them was a kid you liked. I want to know what the kid did to force the coach to throw him off the team. You say it's because upperclassmen were tossed to have younger kids fill out the startting positions. Not enough information here for the rest of us to make an accurate assesment.
quote:Take a good look in the mirror tomorrow and have a nice day.
This isn't a very nice statement - I can detect sarcasm fairly well.
Now this from my response that you have quoted above
quote:There are quitters and losers out there. They quit and are bums every day of their life but we shouldn't categorize every kid like that. This is definately a case by case basis. I agree with you on that.
quote:PLEASE DO NOT PUT WORDS INTO MY MOUTH. I NEVER EVER SAID OR HINTED THAT I EVER CALLED ANY KID EVER A QUITTER OR A LOSER OR A BUM. I WAS QUOTING OTHER COACHES WHO SAID THAT ABOUT YOUNG MEN THAT I KNEW WERE DEFINITELY NOT QUITTERS OR LOSERS OR BUMS.
I think these two quotes show that we just totally missed each other's meanings of what we were trying to put.
I am not saying that you said this. First I made the statement that there are quitters and losers in the world. You cannot deny this fact and I am simply bringing it to your attention. Now as for the rest I am saying that all the previous posts were discussing WHY kids quit - never said the cases prior were quitters. As for the last part I implied from your response that you need to look at a kid quitting a team on a case by case basis. You did not say that but that is the meaning I took from your post. Now I think it should be a case by case basis to determine if a kid has valid reasons to quit or not - now do you agree or disagree with that?
Here is what I think it comes down to - you had a problem with two high school coaches in the 1980's and not too long ago. You found some kids you liked and connected with. They end up not playing for the high school team because they ended up not liking the coach as well or they got tossed. So now you get on here and read about high school coaches and parents and fans talking about why kids quit and you want to bring in your two cents about kids possibly not liking the high school coach - which was already pointed out by the way. You tell two stories that make a good point about ONE of the reasons why kids quit but get ticked at the previous posts when they put about other reasons. You are basically saying the only reason kids quit is because they don't like the coach.
Now as for your first post being a tirade - how could someone not take it as one? When you post in all caps it implies "yelling" or really wanting to emphasize a point.
quote:Originally posted by BCRockets:
I have a kid who was all conference as a sophomore not coming out his senior year. I am disappointed in him for not accepting a leadership role his senior year, but I have come to realize that he saw baseball as a social event. All his friends were a year older than him, so now he feels baseball has nothing to offer him. He must have never really liked baseball, he just happened to be good at it.
As far as I'm concerned, I'd rather have someone who wants to play taking his spot.
We've also noticed another interesting trend at our school in all sports not just baseball. Kids are not coming out as Juniors, then deciding their Senior season they decide to come out. My take on that is they feel they may not play their junior season, so they don't put in all that time and get "nothing from it." Then they feel they have a better chance to play their senior years, so they come out. This is pretty disturbing to all of our coaches. I think it shows that the kids aren't getting what they should out of athletics. Any thoughts?
May be the player realize this is their last chance to play a high school sport and decided to give it a try.
Many football coaches want their players to to play only football and lift in the spring. If the are SRs they won't have to train for next years team so they go out for baseball..
quote:Originally posted by njbb:quote:Originally posted by BCRockets:
I have a kid who was all conference as a sophomore not coming out his senior year. I am disappointed in him for not accepting a leadership role his senior year, but I have come to realize that he saw baseball as a social event. All his friends were a year older than him, so now he feels baseball has nothing to offer him. He must have never really liked baseball, he just happened to be good at it.
As far as I'm concerned, I'd rather have someone who wants to play taking his spot.
We've also noticed another interesting trend at our school in all sports not just baseball. Kids are not coming out as Juniors, then deciding their Senior season they decide to come out. My take on that is they feel they may not play their junior season, so they don't put in all that time and get "nothing from it." Then they feel they have a better chance to play their senior years, so they come out. This is pretty disturbing to all of our coaches. I think it shows that the kids aren't getting what they should out of athletics. Any thoughts?
May be the player realize this is their last chance to play a high school sport and decided to give it a try.
Many football coaches want their players to to play only football and lift in the spring. If the are SRs they won't have to train for next years team so they go out for baseball..
So you want to reward them for not being a team player njbb? I understand what you're saying about football coaches wanting them to lift, but I'm sorry I can't support someone coming out for one year because they have nothing better to do.
Luckily, that is not a concern at my high school. Our football coach nearly required players to run track or play baseball in the spring. He wanted you to play basketball too if you wanted. Our basketball coach nearly required you to run cross country, play football, or play s****r. Our baseball coach encouraged you to play a fall sport and a winter sport. He was definitely pleased if you played football.
I feel you can't just decide to play one year. If you're not willing to do the work required, and sit the bench, then I wouldn't want you.
Don't know about the size of city/town or student population at the high schools that are refered to in this thread.
My own personal experience at our high school that has been over crowded waiting for a new school to be built, has been this:
At our school we have three teams.
Freshman, JV (exclusively Sophmores with the occasional Frosh player - no Juniors) Varsity
(Juniors/Seniors/occasional underclassman).
Back in my day Juniors could also be on the JV team. Not here, so if it just so happens that the varisty in any particular year is heavy with talented Seniors - there is simply no place for some of the Juniors to play until the next year when the Seniors graduate and roster spots become available.
On the one hand coaches might say they want to see them out there trying out for the team, but in reality those that do are treated pretty badly. I am not talking about slackers, these are talented guys that are victims of circumstance. They don't sit home playing video games while waiting for their turn, they usually find another sport to play either at school or outside the high school.
I also think some kids these days get a sense of burn out, and find out their lives have been so planned and rushed by (parents) trying to keep up with the next guy, that they get to be 16 or so and discover that their interests are broadening. I sat next to a young man once at a tournament and we began to chit chat. He told me he had never been allowed to skateboard,water ski, wakeboard, snow ski, snowboard, ride an ATV or a motorcycle, or even a BMX bike. All because his parents felt he would get injured. It took me by surprise that such a young man felt like part of his life had passed him by and I could tell he was more than a little miffed about it. This is not to say that he has many more years to experience these things, of course that is true.
As the parent of a college freshman baseball player, I can tell you this. Everything he did in high school sports was left behind the day he graduated, his accomplishments, awards and accolades, along with the politics.
And yes, my student athlete was a starter at each level, he was not one that had to make the choice to sit out JR. year, he was in the minority.
There are so many different situations that may apply to a kid not going out for a sport, I think it would be wise for us to take this into account, and not judge these guys (or their parents) too harshly.
My own personal experience at our high school that has been over crowded waiting for a new school to be built, has been this:
At our school we have three teams.
Freshman, JV (exclusively Sophmores with the occasional Frosh player - no Juniors) Varsity
(Juniors/Seniors/occasional underclassman).
Back in my day Juniors could also be on the JV team. Not here, so if it just so happens that the varisty in any particular year is heavy with talented Seniors - there is simply no place for some of the Juniors to play until the next year when the Seniors graduate and roster spots become available.
On the one hand coaches might say they want to see them out there trying out for the team, but in reality those that do are treated pretty badly. I am not talking about slackers, these are talented guys that are victims of circumstance. They don't sit home playing video games while waiting for their turn, they usually find another sport to play either at school or outside the high school.
I also think some kids these days get a sense of burn out, and find out their lives have been so planned and rushed by (parents) trying to keep up with the next guy, that they get to be 16 or so and discover that their interests are broadening. I sat next to a young man once at a tournament and we began to chit chat. He told me he had never been allowed to skateboard,water ski, wakeboard, snow ski, snowboard, ride an ATV or a motorcycle, or even a BMX bike. All because his parents felt he would get injured. It took me by surprise that such a young man felt like part of his life had passed him by and I could tell he was more than a little miffed about it. This is not to say that he has many more years to experience these things, of course that is true.
As the parent of a college freshman baseball player, I can tell you this. Everything he did in high school sports was left behind the day he graduated, his accomplishments, awards and accolades, along with the politics.
And yes, my student athlete was a starter at each level, he was not one that had to make the choice to sit out JR. year, he was in the minority.
There are so many different situations that may apply to a kid not going out for a sport, I think it would be wise for us to take this into account, and not judge these guys (or their parents) too harshly.
quote:There are so many different situations that may apply to a kid not going out for a sport, I think it would be wise for us to take this into account, and not judge these guys (or their parents) too harshly.
Ihearbb I think this is a good point and pretty much what everyone is trying to say in their own way. But there are kids today who quit for selfish reasons and don't want to pay their dues and earn their playing time. It's really not an either / or situation. All kids won't have a good excuse why they quit and all kids who quit do have good reasons. We just need to sit down and find out why they quit.
If you got a huge Senior class and don't let Juniors play JV then you are just hurting yourself. If they can't beat out a senior for playing time but you think they can help you next year then you need to find a way to play them to let them keep evolving. If each year you are replacing graduation seniors with incoming seniors then chances are you are going to have a good team because you are doing a great job of building and developing players.
Now on occasion you have a special player who comes through. One year I kept a senior and started him at thirdbase because he was the best choice. He played football and basketball and his dad would not let him play three sports. His senior year he talked his dad into letting him play and I did not have a thirdbaseman. I did not beg him to play and I asked what would he do if he sat the bench. He said "coach don't worry about it. I'm going to win the starting job." He did - he earned it and became a great leader for the team. He was a stud in the other two sports so he came in with credibility already. His work ethic in practice to learn how to hit (he struggled here and he never batted higher than 7th) and work on his fielding really impressed me, my coaches and other players. So that credibility he had coming in just grew through the roof. He turned out to be one of my best players that year and overall.
Now to tie that into what you put Bulldog this kid was the exception. If I coach another 70 years I probably won't come across that type of kid. Overall I agree with what you put about putting the work in and earning your time. But sometimes that special kid comes along and you just got to play him.
The point has been made in this thread that our society today (not just the youth) need instant gratification. As coaches we need to adjust to this in some way. Now that does not mean equal playing time or anything silly like that, but what it means is that we need to find some way to give that to the kids who are not recieving playing time. We can sit here and talk about dedication and being a good teammate, but unless the kids come out we cannot teach that to them. We need to be able to get them out for the team, then show them why being part of a team (whether playing or not) is important.
