Sparky Lyle, now minor league mgr, was just on a FSN feature tonight. He was wondering why all his pitchers nowadays are "wasting time" doing long toss. That's timely.
SoS
If you don't think it works, don't do it. The response's to your post are from individuals, coaches and family members who embraced LT. And by some strange coincidence the players have climbed the ladder to compete at very high levels if not the highest level.
If you don't think it works, don't do it. The response's to your post are from individuals, coaches and family members who embraced LT. And by some strange coincidence the players have climbed the ladder to compete at very high levels if not the highest level.
Sorry for jumping into this thread a little late 
! I pitched in high school and college, but when it came time for my son to start pitching as a youngster eight years ago (he's a 2011), I wanted a little help with mechanics/drills etc...and the first website I ran across was Dick Mills pitching.com. He had some interesting ideas and was quite helpful for Little League aged players! I've since taken a little from Tom House, Steven Ellis, and a few others and I've learned the importance of Long Toss from Alan Jaeger.
When I read Sultan's responses and pitching philosophy on this thread, the first person that came to mind was Mills (he wasn't a big fan of Long Tossing, I'm not sure what his philosophy is now?). I think that Sultan makes some valid points regarding the importance of throwing pens to improve command of the FB & CU. However, I can't remember going to a Major League game in the past ten years and not watching the Starting Pitcher playing Long Toss prior to heading to the pen to warm up? I agree that long tossing by itself does not necessarily help velocity, but it helps to maintain it...unless you're utilizing Jaeger's method of stretching it out throwing as long and far as possible 5-10 yards at a time, and reeling it back in...finally finishing with a good pull-down session of 12-15 Solid FB's.
A bullpen session and a good long toss session (280-320 FT) in between appearances is what my son tries to fit in. He's a position player first, and a pitcher/closer second, so his arm gets additional work in the field.
As for gap2gap, do what you think is best for your son. Have him work on his FB command with the 2seam & 4seam, and a Change with solid/sound mechanics. When you get a chance, visit a professional ballpark (Major or Minor League Park) and take in a game. Make sure you arrive in time to watch the pitchers warm up; like I said earlier, more than likely they'll be Long Tossing with the Bullpen Catcher in the OF prior to taking the mound in the Pen...Good Luck to your son this travel ball season!
When I read Sultan's responses and pitching philosophy on this thread, the first person that came to mind was Mills (he wasn't a big fan of Long Tossing, I'm not sure what his philosophy is now?). I think that Sultan makes some valid points regarding the importance of throwing pens to improve command of the FB & CU. However, I can't remember going to a Major League game in the past ten years and not watching the Starting Pitcher playing Long Toss prior to heading to the pen to warm up? I agree that long tossing by itself does not necessarily help velocity, but it helps to maintain it...unless you're utilizing Jaeger's method of stretching it out throwing as long and far as possible 5-10 yards at a time, and reeling it back in...finally finishing with a good pull-down session of 12-15 Solid FB's.
A bullpen session and a good long toss session (280-320 FT) in between appearances is what my son tries to fit in. He's a position player first, and a pitcher/closer second, so his arm gets additional work in the field.
As for gap2gap, do what you think is best for your son. Have him work on his FB command with the 2seam & 4seam, and a Change with solid/sound mechanics. When you get a chance, visit a professional ballpark (Major or Minor League Park) and take in a game. Make sure you arrive in time to watch the pitchers warm up; like I said earlier, more than likely they'll be Long Tossing with the Bullpen Catcher in the OF prior to taking the mound in the Pen...Good Luck to your son this travel ball season!
No problem Coach2709, hope you can use some of that information.
SofS,
You can't compare the game of yesterday to the game of today. And no one is stating that a good long toss program should ever replace a pitchers mound work, never. The whole idea is to embrace different ideas that will help the pitcher in the future, not what you see now. And the long toss should be an integral part of one's off season and conditioning work, when season comes there are adjustments to be made and a player can alter his program for what he feels is comfortable. For example, my son doesn't toss the distance of a football field, he never did, but he also has the arm speed that most don't have, and all of his pitches have the same out of the slot, and he doesn't toss as much in the season as the off season. The time on the mound and the bp sessions replace much of that.
There is a significant difference between just tossing for warm up and a long toss program, but if you do go to a game, you will see a mini version before the game for all players.
You can embrace the philosophy or you don't have to, but as your son moves up, his coaches will incorporate this program, it's better, IMO to get a jump start as it can be considered a time waster if one is not accustomed to that type of conditioning.
SofS,
You can't compare the game of yesterday to the game of today. And no one is stating that a good long toss program should ever replace a pitchers mound work, never. The whole idea is to embrace different ideas that will help the pitcher in the future, not what you see now. And the long toss should be an integral part of one's off season and conditioning work, when season comes there are adjustments to be made and a player can alter his program for what he feels is comfortable. For example, my son doesn't toss the distance of a football field, he never did, but he also has the arm speed that most don't have, and all of his pitches have the same out of the slot, and he doesn't toss as much in the season as the off season. The time on the mound and the bp sessions replace much of that.
There is a significant difference between just tossing for warm up and a long toss program, but if you do go to a game, you will see a mini version before the game for all players.
You can embrace the philosophy or you don't have to, but as your son moves up, his coaches will incorporate this program, it's better, IMO to get a jump start as it can be considered a time waster if one is not accustomed to that type of conditioning.
Here is my take on the long toss issue. I think we can all agree that it is important for players, pitchers in particular, to throw pretty much everyday. You throw to get or keep your arm in shape. We all know it is a bad thing to start off a season not being in "throwing" shape. You will be asking for injuries. We also know that "pitching" too much is not a good thing. That is why we all discuss pitch counts, days of rest between outings, etc.
I see long toss inbetween starts as a way to keep throwing without putting quite the stress on the arm as you would throwing off a mound. In a general sense, throwing is throwing. Long toss cannot hurt the throwing muscles in terms of pitching. What it can do is keep them maintained or even get them stronger. Working on mechanics and learning to hit your spots, IMHO, should mostly be done in the off season. During the season, it is a lot harder to work on this because you are pitching in games on a regular basis. Some tweaking can go on during a mid week bullpen, but most of the work should be done before the season starts.
Now, the way my son's pitching coach explained it to me is that the reason the mound is harder on a pitcher than throwing from flat ground is that because you are throwing downhill, there is more stress put on your forward leg and it is much harder on the decelerator muscles because of the downward momentum. I'm certainly not an expert, but it just makes sense to me that if you are only supposed to pitch every 5 days or so and watch your pitch counts, throwing off the mound too much cannot be that good for you. Use long toss as a supplement.
JMHO
I see long toss inbetween starts as a way to keep throwing without putting quite the stress on the arm as you would throwing off a mound. In a general sense, throwing is throwing. Long toss cannot hurt the throwing muscles in terms of pitching. What it can do is keep them maintained or even get them stronger. Working on mechanics and learning to hit your spots, IMHO, should mostly be done in the off season. During the season, it is a lot harder to work on this because you are pitching in games on a regular basis. Some tweaking can go on during a mid week bullpen, but most of the work should be done before the season starts.
Now, the way my son's pitching coach explained it to me is that the reason the mound is harder on a pitcher than throwing from flat ground is that because you are throwing downhill, there is more stress put on your forward leg and it is much harder on the decelerator muscles because of the downward momentum. I'm certainly not an expert, but it just makes sense to me that if you are only supposed to pitch every 5 days or so and watch your pitch counts, throwing off the mound too much cannot be that good for you. Use long toss as a supplement.
JMHO
RJM,
A lot of people have misinterpreted the ASMI data on curves. Just because the curve doesn't put higher stresses on the arm than the fastball (not surprising for a pitch that is significantly slower than a fastball) doesn't necessarily mean it isn't also damaging. Even after that study came out Andrews was still against curves for younger pitchers. The curve puts different stresses on the arm that it hasn't been built up to handle by playing catch, long toss, etc. So even though the magnitude of the stresses isn't as great they can and often do still cause problems. There are also ASMI studies showing a higher incidence of shoulder problems among pitchers who throw curves. Research it a little deeper.
A lot of people have misinterpreted the ASMI data on curves. Just because the curve doesn't put higher stresses on the arm than the fastball (not surprising for a pitch that is significantly slower than a fastball) doesn't necessarily mean it isn't also damaging. Even after that study came out Andrews was still against curves for younger pitchers. The curve puts different stresses on the arm that it hasn't been built up to handle by playing catch, long toss, etc. So even though the magnitude of the stresses isn't as great they can and often do still cause problems. There are also ASMI studies showing a higher incidence of shoulder problems among pitchers who throw curves. Research it a little deeper.
As far as the long toss vs. throwing off the mound it is pretty simple. There are a lot of pitchers who simply can't throw as hard off the mound when throwing a pen as they can during a game. As a result they don't push their arm to higher velocity movements. For some, not all, of those pitchers by playing maximum distance long toss they can get themselves to throw at their max velocity. A few pitchers can get to maximum velocity throwing "flat" long toss, others have to throw on an arc to throw max velocity. Some pitchers can throw max velocity in the pen when they want to.
Every pitcher is different and what works for one pitcher doesn't necessarily work for another. Each pitcher has to experiment and find out what works best for them based on their stage of development and their short and long term needs for improvement.
I like long toss, but let's face it if you've got a kid who can long toss 340' and he can't get over 85 mph on the mound then he needs to work on mechanics and not on long toss.
A pitcher who needs to work on their control more than on velocity should probably focus on bullpens to the degree it is safe and possibly add in a few max velocity pitches at the end of the pen and supplement the pens with limited long toss and flatgrounds.
A pitcher with good control who is able to throw max velocity while long tossing should probably long toss a lot and only throw enough bullpens to keep their control from slipping.
Personally, I also think the 4oz ball used judiciously at the end of a pen or at the end of long toss when throwing flat at full velocity can help.
Every pitcher is different and what works for one pitcher doesn't necessarily work for another. Each pitcher has to experiment and find out what works best for them based on their stage of development and their short and long term needs for improvement.
I like long toss, but let's face it if you've got a kid who can long toss 340' and he can't get over 85 mph on the mound then he needs to work on mechanics and not on long toss.
A pitcher who needs to work on their control more than on velocity should probably focus on bullpens to the degree it is safe and possibly add in a few max velocity pitches at the end of the pen and supplement the pens with limited long toss and flatgrounds.
A pitcher with good control who is able to throw max velocity while long tossing should probably long toss a lot and only throw enough bullpens to keep their control from slipping.
Personally, I also think the 4oz ball used judiciously at the end of a pen or at the end of long toss when throwing flat at full velocity can help.
Long Toss is an arm exercise not necessarily a pitching exercise(workout)---just like throwing is not the same workout as pitching
Who remembers Lyle going "from Cy Young to sayonara."? 
SoS - Be concerned about your very young son's splitter and slider and effects on ulnar collateral ligaments in his elbow, wrist and thumb.
Also, long toss also supports and balances the deacceleration phase of his throwing mechanics.
Lastly, the bio-mechanical adolescent study
you referenced mentioned:
1. 61 mph fastball;
2. 51 mph curveball!
3. "Further evaluation of adolescent and adult baseball pitchers is warranted to help determine and subsequently reduce the risk of injury."
4. Results: NON-CONCLUSIVE!
5. Recommendation: Increase and then study the effect of the moments on the shoulder and elbow when throwing increased curveball velo's versus when throwing increased fastball velo's.
SoS - Be concerned about your very young son's splitter and slider and effects on ulnar collateral ligaments in his elbow, wrist and thumb.
Also, long toss also supports and balances the deacceleration phase of his throwing mechanics.
Lastly, the bio-mechanical adolescent study
you referenced mentioned:
1. 61 mph fastball;
2. 51 mph curveball!
3. "Further evaluation of adolescent and adult baseball pitchers is warranted to help determine and subsequently reduce the risk of injury."
4. Results: NON-CONCLUSIVE!
5. Recommendation: Increase and then study the effect of the moments on the shoulder and elbow when throwing increased curveball velo's versus when throwing increased fastball velo's.
Here is a great throwing program for pitchers.
http://www.thepitchingacademy.com/?page_id=44
Hope that helps
http://www.thepitchingacademy.com/?page_id=44
Hope that helps