Advise:ask coach if you can call pitched

Your son can earn his trust by following his system.  Once that happens, little things can start to occur, like:  once ahead, calling pitches.  Maybe for a pitcher who likes to work fast, calling his pitches.  Let your son's work ethic set the tone.

Honestly, I don't think its such a big deal.  Despite your apparent feeling the coach is a 'control freak' - in fact he is no freak at all.  Lots of HS, travel and college coaches call the pitches.

Is it right?  Debatable, but it happens all over America.  No need to make THIS coach out as a villain at least on this issue.  And you even said your son is learning the skill on other teams.  So whats the big deal?

I think your son can learn how to have an adult conversation with the coach (his boss), but if the coach says no, thats it.  Its his team, his job - his decision.  Just like the real world.  Don't vilify him, its not very unusual.

The coach makes the rules my son never questioned the coach just threw what he ask him to even when he new it wasn't the right pitch For three years.  My son played for a terrible HS coach.  Then senior year he tried a new tactic.  between innings he would tell the coach hey my curve is good tonight call it on any count or he may say I can't control my split don't call it when I'm down in the count, or that 3/2 slidder was a great call coach thanks for trusting me with it.  They finally got on the same page,  Son gave up 2 earned runs and 3 total runs in over 70 innings for the season.  Sometimes you have to do what you've got to do.

Coach_Sampson - Do you atleast set aside time to work with catchers and teach them to call pitches or is that done by learning from what you call in certain situations? This next rant is not directed at you Coach Sampson but just statements in general. AS a father of a catcher of course this issue is more personal and I feel strongly about it. Catcher seem to be the most important position on the field ("Field General") but get the least attention and developement. Like metioned in previous threads, I think it comes down to the coaches (not all) not knowing enougn about the position. At my kids practices catchers take infield and flip the ball back to the HC and throw down to each base maybe 2 times each. No one has ever approached him about pitch selection and how to read hitters etc, but they spent lots of time on a trick play wherethe SS runs in front of the runner at 2B and trips/fall in front of him while 2nd Baseman sneaks over to the bag. WTH. There is so much more benifit to teaching catchers their job than doing it for them. And yes I understand the coach runs the team and kids are to do as they are told and not offer their opinion, it works well in N. Korea, Russia and China after all. It has been stateted repeatedly that 13-17 yr old kids alck the ability, in most cases, to understand how to call a game effectively; so wouldn't that indicate that coaches are lacking in that area and should maybe work on improveing that part of their practice plan? Obviously I think so. So until that happens I will continue help my son understand that nuance of the game so that he will be effective when called upon to perform all aspect of the position.

This is what makes this board so great is all the various opinion from all different experiences and pionts of views. Thanks for allowing me a forum to vent and i do take away alot from responses whether I agree with them or not.

I agree with you. At the High School level, especially during the school season, catchers are woefully under-coached. My main responsiblity at the school I coach is the catchers. But I understand why catcher's are the ones that get the short end of the stick. The position has so many facets that a lot of coaches do not understand or can't teach.

The limited amount of time that we have with the kids makes it very hard to teach and truly develop catchers. For example, this year the first allowed practice is March 2nd and our first game is March 21st. That allows us 15 practice day. I think we have found a way to be able to get more instruction in this year, this is my 2nd year with the program and the 2nd year with the same coaching staff. After stretching and throwing we will break down into defensive groups, Infield, outfield, and catchers, for about 45 minutes. In that time we will be doing individual drills and that will be my chance to teach. I try to have the JV catcher sit by me when I'm calling the varsity game so he can try to learn what I'm trying to do and have the ability to ask questions. 

The last thing I want the catchers doing is just flipping balls to coaches for fungos. That will be taken care of by my POs. 

So to address your point about teaching the nuance of the position. It is very hard to teach feel of the game. It is easy to teach the physical aspects of the position. I can teach you how to receive a pitch. I can teach you how to block. I can teach you how to pick. I can teach you how to throw. It is much tougher to teach someone when to do those things in such a dynamic position.

I can give you knowledge but I can't give you wisdom. It is like that saying about tomatoes. Knowledge is knowing that a tomato is a fruit, Wisdom is knowing not to put it in a fruit salad. 

All great points above.  Your son can still "call the game" in his head.  I'm sure he's been doing this.  I'd ask him how many times the coach is calling for a different pitch that he'd call.  Then consider if the pitch thrown was successful or not?  Remember, there is a philosophy going on in the coaches head that your son doesn't know.  Your son may call for a certain pitch trying to get an out on it while the coach may be calling for a different pitch to setup the next, as well as trying to show something to the on deck hitter.  A lot of mental work going on and a REAL opportunity for your son to learn another perspective.

I would suggest that you son approach the coach after a game and let him know that he's working on learning his thought process on calling pitches so that he can become a better catcher.  Then have one or two situations in mind where your son would have called for a pitch other than what the coach called (be VERY careful not to choose pitches that resulted in a good outcome for he hitter at first).  Ask the coach what his thinking was behind the decision.

This will show the coach that your son is managing the game in his head and working to improve his skills.  It will also signal to the coach that he may have a player he can trust in certain scenarios.  Ultimately, your son may approach the coach when you're playing one of the weaker scheduled teams and ask if he can call a couple of innings.

It would probably be better received if the player has established some level of confidence in the coaches mind that he has the skill.  If coach says no, nothing lost.  Even without calling the game your son can learn a different perspective.  Through these conversations he may learn through that the coach has a lot more working knowledge than your son realizes.

Nuke83 - Great reply. It makes a lot of sense that just because he is not calling pitches he can't call the game in his head and compare what he would have done or in fact called the same pitch. From what 2016 has said he already does this to an extent.

I don't know why this is an issue.  Has your son mastered every other part of the position?  Are his measurables (pop, mph) top shelf?  Does he control the ball (effective blocking) and shut down the running game?  These take tremendous focus for a young catcher to be ready every pitch.  As stated above, most high school and college coaches call pitches, this is the way it is.  I have not heard of a case where not calling pitches impacted college recruiters opinion of a catcher.  I don't get the angst...

It is an issue because players need to be developed and calling pitches, IMO, is a major part of that developement to play at a higher level and set yourself appart from others. Just bc that is the way it is doean't mean that that is the way it has to be. If kids were trained, allowed to perform this vital role of the catcher then we would have more kids who truely understand the game. With that said, this issue isn't an end all be all for me, I understand that coaches come in all shapes in forms with different beliefs, standards and styles. To me it would be a great benifit to the game if kids were allowed to perform all aspects of the position starting at the HS level; the Minors is a tough place to work on and become a compitent pitch caller.

In my OP I was asking for ways that my son could appraoch the topic with a coach that is not so open to player opinion bc there are some pretty smart people here that have been in that position before or would just offer up some good ideas.  

I think Nuke83 gave the best advice on how to approach the coach with this.  However, as others have said, I would not let this issue consume you or your son.  When it comes down to it, all the way thru the college ranks, very few catchers call their own games.  My son is a pitcher, so I am always watching for that.  My son plays on a nationally ranked D2 team in one of the best D2 conferences in the country.  I'm not sure I saw any coaches allowing their players to call the games.  I have watched SEC and ACC games on TV and I can't recall any of those coaches allowing their players to call their own games.  There may be some, but I think they are in the minority.  

There was one series my son's team played this year that he said the other team was stealing the signs and the coach let the catcher call the games.  He did a really good job.  However, the coach went right back to calling it when that series was over.

If you are going to go thru the next 2 years of HS and possibly the next 4 years of college getting bent out of shape about this, you may wind up being miserable.  

I've talked to my son and several other pitchers on the team and asked about shaking off pitches.  To a man, they all said "yeah, you can shake off a pitch, but if you don't make the pitch, and it gets hit, be prepared to not get in another game for a while, so no, I don't shake off pitches".

I think all you can do is have your son prepare himself in the event that he does, one day, get to call his own game.  Unfortunately, you can't change the world.  If you push the issue too hard, you may find yourself on the bad side of a coach who just isn't going to change.  The coach is the boss.  Most of the time, it's his way or the highway.

I'll add my $.02.  I guess my kid has been lucky.  He's been "allowed" to call pitches since 12u.  Granted, not every game and not every pitch.  When he started, our pitching coach was absent and the HC didn't have a clue - so he called the game.  Today's coach let's him call some pitches, probably about 20%.  Of course, the time he called for fastball down the middle didn't go over too well. 

But my issue with the OP is that the coach is "unapproachable about issues like this."  That's just bad coaching, period.   

bballman- agreed that Nuke83 gave some good advise. I think in the end, kids should be given the opportunity to suceed or fail. If it doesn't go well then coach takes the reins and atleast he show some confidence in his player. Like I mentioned earlier, this is not something I carry around with me and will not ruin my day. Thanks for all the advise. Given that it is so widespread that coaches call pitches does make a difference and lessens my opinion that this coach is a "control freak", as far as pitch calling atleast, ha ha.

Not all coaches are darlings. Some are simply 100% unapproachable and trying to discuss this would go nowhere. I saw a coach once go out and just rip his high school pitcher for trying to shake off a pitch. He "colorfully" stated he was the coach, he was calling the pitches, and "You better throw what I call. Period."  Blue language omitted.

We own a pitcher and a pitcher/catcher and they leave it up to the coach's discretion.  Some of their coaches will let them call pitches and some won't.  Some will sometimes and not others.  Yes, they want to do it themselves, but that's not how it works.

But, regardless of who calls it, we have never had a coach that was unapproachable or shut them down.  I'm with Golfman, that seems to be the real problem.

PA2016Backstop, believe me when I say, there are many times I question the pitch calls of the coach.  There are many times I talk with my son after a game and HE questions the pitch calls.  He's not a catcher, but if left to his own devices, he could call his own game and decide to throw what he wants and he would be fine.  I'm not saying that I prefer to have the coach call pitches.  I'm just saying that the reality is that it happens and there are coaches that are not going to change, so you have to make due.

Many times I will talk with my son after a game he pitches and we will talk about certain pitches he threw in certain situations.  We use it as a learning moment between us.  If his coach is going to call pitches, that's just the way it is, but he is still learning how to manage a game even though this is going on.  I also know that the pitchers talk among themselves about pitch sequence and certain pitches called by the coach.  Most of them would have done things differently and they all have complaints at times.  They are learning on their own how they would call a game.  I would have confidence in most of the pitchers and catchers on my son's college team calling their own game.  But, coach is going to do what coach is going to do.  It doesn't mean that the kids aren't learning from this experience.

Between me talking to my son after games and the pitchers and catchers talking among themselves, there is a lot of baseball being learned.  Coach calling pitches or not.  

Hope this makes sense.

Don't misunderstand what I was saying.  I have no issue with a coach calling pitches, for the reasons you stated plus they should have more experience than a young kid.  However, not being approachable about it is just not good, imo.  He should be open to a dialog about teaching the kid how to call a game.  There are certain situations (i.e. a big lead) where he could be open to the kid calling a batter or two. 

Is there any REAL proof that coaches calling pitches produces better results and teaches pitchers and catchers better than just letting them call the games themselves? I know there’s a lot of rhetoric out there about it, but I don’t know of any way to really prove it one way or the other.

Just because its “normal” doesn’t mean it’s the best or most efficient way. It might just indicate a lazy coach or one who doesn’t really understand how to teach. There’s no GOOD reason I can think of that a coach can’t teach his pitchers and catchers what he knows about pitch calling.

If nothing else, why not prove it by letting the catcher call some games and see what happens.

Both as a high school pitching coach and as a HC at younger ages, I rarely let the catchers call the game. The main reason has been mentioned above. I've got strategical purposes for my calls that often go beyond the pitcher/hitter battle currently going on. Now, having said that, I often will have the catcher who isn't in the game at the time sitting by my side and I'll have a conversation with him concerning the purpose I have for almost every pitch I call.

Coaches do have to be in control.  How much feedback do you think the players should have?  "Coach, can I play ss today? I was the best one on my summer team"  "Coach, can I hit 3rd?" "Coach, I want to throw a few innings today. I've been working on my curve." "Coach, since I'm not starting today, I'm just going to stay home and chill."  Coaches do have to believe their way is the way it's going to be.  Could you imagine a coach taking suggestions from all the armchair coaches in the stands, each with a strongly biased POV toward a different particular player    Would you rather your son have a coach who is indecisive and without confidence that he is leading his players and team in the right direction? 

PA2016, I took a bit of a gruff approach to illustrate a point.  There has been some great threads here about the pros and cons of coaches calling pitches at the HS level.  Both arguments have merit.  There is a tremendous amount of responsibility the catcher has, with or without calling pitches.  Your son will still be learning because he is taking in exactly what an experienced coach calls for every given situation at this level. He and the coach will undoubtedly have many bench discussions during games.  No need to force the issue.  They will develop a working relationship.  Assuming it is his first or second year catching at the varsity level, he really has no experience to fall back on at that level.  The coach is more likely to know the tendencies of the hitters and the opposing coach.  Help your son see it as an opportunity rather than a hindrance. 

Also, please consider that your lack of support toward the coach/s will likely be more visible to your son than you think and will make it more difficult for him to have a good working relationship with them.

Stats4Gnats - I don't care what they say about you, your ok in my book.

Originally Posted by PA2016Backstopdad:

Stats4Gnats - I don't care what they say about you, your ok in my book.

Well, that’s nice of you to say, but I suspect many here now have you identified as one of the “bad” guys.

If one believes that learning takes place best and most efficiently by osmosis, having the coach calling pitches is the way to go. If one believes learning takes place best and most efficiently by making one’s own mistakes, letting the catchers do their job is the way to go. I don’t know about anyone else, but for me learning by doing always worked best.

While I agree with that in theory Stats, sometimes and for some coaches, the stakes are too high to let the kids learn from their mistakes - ie. the possibility of them losing their job if they continue to lose.

If I were to work in a law firm and was a brand new associate, I doubt the partners would let me go to court to argue a case and take the chance I would lose the case so I could learn a lesson.  They are going to call the shots and have me take instructions and learn lessons from them doing the work until I got to a point that it was pretty unlikely that I would make the kind of mistakes that would lose me a case.  Not much different in baseball.

I was doing well until the N. Korea, Russia and China comment.  Take your son off of the team.  He already knows more than the coach and so, why make him miserable.  I'm sure that the HS has another catcher. 

Wow! 

As an answer to the OP, have your son ask "Coach, is there ever a time you will be comfortable letting me call the game?"  An open ended question like this shouldn't automatically be responded to by a "I make all decisions" statement.  Also, if the coach says NEVER EVER in a million years will you call the game...well then you have your answer.

Our 12u Coach is a former catcher, his kid is a 2016 Catcher for one of the best teams in the country, and they both say that  the most important part of being a catcher is calling the game and being the general on the field.  According to them, the catcher's voice should trump every other players voice on that field and they should be heard loud and clear as the leader.  If the catcher yells cut 2, those boys had better cut 2 or they will be getting a "talkin'" to in the dugout!

On our 12u team the catcher calls the game 80% of the time with steadfast rules...throw the change up on X count.....if the slider is working today always call that on X count...and during the other 20% the catcher signals the coach on what he wants the pitcher to throw and coach can agree or change it.  It is the catcher's call to give the pick off sign or even just throw to first himself if he sees a kid getting back on first taking his own sweet time, the catcher on our team controls the ball and the field...but as said above, all coaches are different.

I typically am not one to over react on this site.  Your OP is nothing but critical of this coach.  Why would you have your son play for him.  You don't have any respect for this coach.

I went back and read OP.  You said (paraphrasing):

• Coach is a control freak.
• Doesn't see the value of coaching kids to teach them how to call a game.
• Doesn't empower kids.
• Doesn't allow kids to think for themselves.
• Coach messes up pitcher since they have to wait for coach to call pitches.
• He has an Ego problem because he wants to take credit for a pitchers success.

You also stated that your son learns from coaches away from the HS team implying that he is learning nothing from the HS coach.  So, why would you allow your son to play for this coach?  In my parent meetings, I make it clear that parents need to act like parents and if they don't like what I do, then remove your son.  I'll find a replacement. 

I'll post what I did with my catchers.   First, we (catcher and coach) called the games.  However, that took time to implement the type of system I could allow a catcher to do so.  It doesn't happen over night and a new catcher has to earn the right.  There are a lot of ways of doing this.  I had meetings with catchers and pitchers and discussed the whys as to what I want thrown and called.  I also allowed pitchers to have input as to what they were comfortable throwing. I did allow pitchers to shake off my calls but had a signal back to them in those times when what I called was what they were going to throw.  To be honest, probably 99% of the time, if a senior pitcher shuck me off, I let them throw what they wanted.  The rest of the staff had to earn the right.  The catchers would catch our pitchers throwing in practice situations.  We would call the pitches as hitters hit in situational hitting.  A pitcher would wrap up a bullpen by throwing perhaps 4 at bats.  During this time, I would call a pitch or two but the catcher would call most.  Then, after the at bat, we would discuss the whys.  I had a signal for the catchers to use that meant that they didn't want to call this particular pitch or at bat and so, I took it.  I worked with all of the pitchers and catchers in my HS program.  It was a program and not a team.  My catchers pretty much all went on to play in college. 

I should stop but I'll add a few more things.  I kept pitching charts on every team we faced.  Therefore, I knew a little history about each hitter IF they had been on varsity before.  How accurate was that info?  I don't know. Obviously if it was another year, that player had the opportunity to be better.  If it were the same season as with conference, then I'd think my "book" was pretty good.  Things like how a batter stands in the box, if they take a 1st pitch strike a majority of the time, if they are a pull hitter, ... all are written down on my sheet prior to the game.  These things were shared with my catcher but who knows if they had the ability to remember all of it.  Certainly, they can refresh their memories between innings.  Still, I had it in front of me and so used that information when I called pitches.  I also had broken most of our opposing school's signals.  So, I knew when a hit and run, bunt, squeeze, etc. were going to happen.  That matters. 

There has to be a way catchers can learn all of this and so, when they go off to college, they are prepared to call a game.  I wanted college coaches to want my catchers and they did.  IMO, the best is to have a mix. 

Not arguing CoachB25, but what other choice does the OP have?  Not have their kid play High School Baseball?  From what you posted below you have a dialogue with your players, some earn the right to call the game some don't. 

What would your advice be to a player who wants to have the experience of playing with his classmates, but the coach doesn't want to have a dialogue with them, he wants to give orders and have them followed. 

I think the OP was asking, in a way sure to tick off every coach on this board, how to get a dialogue going between player and coach with a coach that doesn't seem to want one.

IMO, the N. Korea, Russia, China line was indicative of how the OP sees the coach and I don't appreciate comparison.  I don't know that coach but do know that the coaches I've met aren't in it for the money.  Maybe there are some out there.  Still, that got me rolling.  Most of you know my reputation on this site and that I am one of the moderators on this site.  I earned that responsibility by being level headed. 

I have yet to meet a coach HS or other wise that doesn't love a scrapper.  I have yet to meet a coach HS or other wise that doesn't love a leader.  I had a similar reputation as this coach he speaks of with regards to parents.  However, give me a ball player and we can talk.  We can talk all night.  If that young man is a "player" then he will be able to talk to the coach.  Do you honestly think that this coach hates kids?

In all seriousness, those questions I posed were things the OP should consider and yes, if he thinks his son is taking a step backwards, then remove his son from the HS team.  Had my child played for someone who I thought was hindering her development, you had better believe I would have taken my own advice.   

Not to answer for Coach, but the answer is to teach the player to accept that fact and work within the confines of the situation.  Whether it be baseball or work further down the road, there are going to be people who are your "boss".  Some of them will listen to you and care about what you think.  Others just want you to follow "orders".  A parent's job is to teach their child how to deal with life situations, not to change a person that their child has contact with.  Generally speaking, people are who they are.  If we try to change everyone, we will be miserable.  Do the best with what you have.  Once again, I think Nuke83 had some good ideas about how to approach the coach.  Try it, if it doesn't work, do what you can.

One time my son told me that coach had called 8 fastballs in a row before the batter finally hit a ground ball down the 3rd base line for a run scoring double.  The run cost us the game and the team wound up one game behind the conference leader for a conference championship.  We agreed that calling that many fastballs in a row was not a good idea, especially since my son does not have an overpowering fastball.  But what I told him was he needed to be a little more creative with HIS pitches if the coach was going to do that.  Mix in some 4 seam fastballs with the 2 seam.  Maybe throw in a cut fastball to mix things up.  Go low, go high.  Be creative within the confines of throwing what the coach called.  I was trying to give him some alternatives to deal with a non-optimal situation the best he could.  To just sit around blaming the coach without trying to come up with some alternatives would be irresponsible on my part.  To  poison his relationship with the coach further than what he already thought would have been irresponsible.  

I think in the heat of the moment, my son wasn't big on taking my advice.  I hope in the long run, he will look back on that conversation and it will make him try to make the best of a situation that is not totally within his control.  Sometimes, that's all you can do.  In life as well as baseball.

bballman, what I nice response.  I am not the best at using this medium and so, am sure I come off gruff.  You did so much better than I.

Edited to add:

As some of you know, I once coached in the former Soviet Union.  Perhaps I just am too sensitive to these types of comments. 

My son is both a pitcher and catcher and has been able to work closely with a Major League catcher who is adamant that catcher's should call the game and be in charge.  

However, most catchers (younger than college) I don't feel are prepared or experience enough to call pitches.  What's interesting is that at the minor league level there really isn't much leeway given to catcher's or pitchers.  At my son's college the pitchers can shake off the pitch but if they give up a hit on that pitch they owe the coach some sprints.  (Coach is a former MLB pitcher)

I will say that there are HS coaches that know nothing about calling pitches.  Last season in the 1st two innings my kid was getting roped on the mound.  Coach came and said what can we change.  He said let me and the catcher call the game.  Coach said okay.  He did not give up another run the entire game.

I think that its best to try to train the kids to call there own games as soon as they possibly can. 

Originally Posted by bballman:

While I agree with that in theory Stats, sometimes and for some coaches, the stakes are too high to let the kids learn from their mistakes - ie. the possibility of them losing their job if they continue to lose.

If I were to work in a law firm and was a brand new associate, I doubt the partners would let me go to court to argue a case and take the chance I would lose the case so I could learn a lesson.  They are going to call the shots and have me take instructions and learn lessons from them doing the work until I got to a point that it was pretty unlikely that I would make the kind of mistakes that would lose me a case.  Not much different in baseball.

Why is it assumed that losing is the automatic result of players learning while they play? C’mon now and be honest, assuming the catcher isn’t a complete dolt, if he’s given some general rules of thumb, how much different would the game he called be than the game his coach called, and why wouldn’t he learn from his mistakes and repeat those mistakes?

Please don’t drag in lawyers or doctors or anybody else here because it is different. It’s a freakin’ game! No life and death, no one’s family is gonna get thrown into the street because winning and losing depends a lot more on other things than what pitch is called.

I’m not saying there shouldn’t be a period of learning, but let’s get serious. There’s no reason it should take years for a catcher to be able to call a game reasonably well. Why is it that the game was played for well over 150 years with only catchers calling pitches, but now it’s so complicated they can’t handle it without years and years of experience?