Advise:ask coach if you can call pitched

Originally Posted by daveccpa:

…At my son's college the pitchers can shake off the pitch but if they give up a hit on that pitch they owe the coach some sprints.  (Coach is a former MLB pitcher)…

 

I’m sorry, but that is one really stupid philosophy, unless of course whoever calls the pitch has to run sprints when a pitch isn’t shaken off and there’s a hit. Think about it. Coach calls a pitch, pitcher shakes it off. Another pitch is called the pitcher is satisfied with, and he throws it. Batter’s completely fooled and plants a swinging bunt he beats out, dumps a duck fart just over the F4’s head, or hits a routine grounder that takes a hop and jumps over the F6’s glove. Now the pitcher knows he made the right pitch, executed it correctly, but will be running sprints because it was a hit. All that does IMO is make him into a cowering whoos afraid of taking charge and being a leader because the coach is acting foolishly.

 

I'm going to say this stats and get out before we get into it again.  Just not going to do it.  There is no evidence one way or another that a catcher calling pitches will lose more games.  I never said that.  What I said is that there are many coaches out there whose livelihood DOES depend on winning or losing and that those coaches feel more comfortable with the responsibility on them rather than the catcher.

 

I have seen HS coaches and College coaches get the boot for not winning.  For the college coach in particular, the threat is real.  Whether or not the catcher calling the game is better or not (and I am of the opinion that there are times when the catcher may be able to call the game just as well or better than the coach), the reality is, the coach would rather have his job in his hands than a player's.  In HS and college, the game is really more about winning than development.  You need to develop your players to win, but the end game is the win. 

SK, if you think that coaches have so little knowledge and ability as to suggest that players can do as well or better, then, you'd also agree that despite your vast knowledge of scoring, a fan could do as well? (We all know that you are top notch in your field and so, that would not be true despite the lack of a study.)

 

Per bballman's post, I've pointed it out a few times, when I took my coaching job at my present school, I was told that if I didn't win and win fast, I would be fired.  I had 2 years to produce a winning program.  There was a little pressure on calling the game.  Thank goodness, I had a freshman who was real smart and a senior who was not.  The freshman took over about half way through the season and he had worked real hard at knowing what I wanted called. 

 

Again, and I think that this is real important, if a coach can allow themselves to let go some, if they set up a signaling system with the pitcher and catcher where they can dictate as to who is calling a pitch, all three will prosper. 

Originally Posted by bballman:

I'm going to say this stats and get out before we get into it again.  Just not going to do it.  There is no evidence one way or another that a catcher calling pitches will lose more games.  I never said that.  What I said is that there are many coaches out there whose livelihood DOES depend on winning or losing and that those coaches feel more comfortable with the responsibility on them rather than the catcher.

 

I have seen HS coaches and College coaches get the boot for not winning.  For the college coach in particular, the threat is real.  Whether or not the catcher calling the game is better or not (and I am of the opinion that there are times when the catcher may be able to call the game just as well or better than the coach), the reality is, the coach would rather have his job in his hands than a player's.  In HS and college, the game is really more about winning than development.  You need to develop your players to win, but the end game is the win. 

 

Well, I won’t at all disagree that there are coaches whose livelihood does depend on winning, but isn’t that a college and above thing? The reason I say that is, I’m not aware of any HS coaches who earn their livelihood from coaching baseball. Earn some $$$ yes, but their livelihood? I’d say that’s pretty rare.

 

But here’s where I have a bit of a problem. You seem to basically agree with my premise that calling pitches isn’t likely to be the reason a game is won or lost, so why is it that so many believe they’re in such danger of losing their jobs if they aren’t calling the pitches? It just seems silly to me to place so much importance on calling pitches as though nothing else matters.

 

Like I said, the game got along just fine for a very long time with it being very rare that signs would be sent in from the bench. I’m not sure when it changed but it had to be sometime between 1965 when I stopped playing, and 1995 when my son started playing. Something happened during those 30 years that sent the game onto the path it’s currently on with regard to calling pitches. However, it sure does seem to be a generational thing. Although it still can be considered “normal” to have coaches sending in the signs, it isn’t nearly as prevalent as it was 20 years ago, and seems to be heading in the direction of letting the catchers call the games.

 

Please don’t get the idea that all I’m doing is fighting authority here. If there were any proof at all that someone on the bench calling pitches almost always led to a superior outcome, I’d be the 1^st on screaming that no catcher should ever call a game. To me it’s one of those non-issue issues, like wearing uniform pants high or low or wearing a flat billed cap or not. Yes, if a catcher called FBs down the middle on every pitch I’ll agree that wouldn’t make for as good an outcome as changing speed and locations, but seriously, how many catchers in HS would dream of doing that unless they were catching some stud throwing 100+. If a player is that ignorant about the game, he prolly shouldn’t be on the team anyway, let alone catching.

 

If pitchers could execute really well and batters never got lucky, let alone could really hit, I wouldn’t feel so passionate about it, but as long a great pitches executed perfectly can be pounded into oblivion and weak pitches executed poorly can get even the best hitters out, I don’t think what pitch is called is such a big a deal the job can’t be handled by players.

CoachB25- what would you think about a HC that told his kids not to receive instruction from an old timer who coached on Team USA as an asst and manager, took a no name small Collorado college to the World Series and was asked to start/develope the Netherlands national team? That a pitching machine that throws curve balls is a bad idea but spends $8000 on sweatshirts and other apparel.

I call that a dumb coach.  Why as a coach would you not want your players to get better.  However, as said above he is the coach and right wrong or indifferent your son will have to deal with him.  My son's HS coach was a moron but was everyone's buddy so the kids liked him.  His coaching strategy cost a few wins each year.  But as I told my son he is your coach and you are going to have to deal with it.  

 

If your sons goal is play beyond High School then having a complete idiot for a coach is not going to change that.  If might make it tougher but in the end if your son has talent to play he will find opportunties to play.  It just sucks to have to deal with that. My sons' HS coach stuck with his Senior catcher who did not have a hit the entire 20 game season because he didn't want to play two freshmen because they where freshmen.  Both of them could hit and play defense.  

 

I've learned as a parent that I just needed to relax and let it happen but its hard.

daveccpa- you have just described my sons exact situation. Are sure our kids dont play on the same HS team?

First, if this other coach actually knows what he is talking about and I want my son to be instructed by him, then I do so.  The HC runs the HS team and not my family.  If I had a son, I'd realize that there are several ways to get my son recruited and so, I don't have to depend upon the HS team for that.  When my daughter was getting recruited for college softball, a Top 25 coach told me that I had 24 hours to tell them whether she was verballing to them or not.  I told that coach I didn't need 24 hours.  She was not attending that school.  I refuse to allow others to dictate to me or my family things I control.  Of course the HS coach controls his field. 

 

I have an pretty nice resume myself.  However, it doesn't stop the criticism.  I'm sure that there were times when my decisions came into question.  That is the nature of the beast.  When we won, I was a genius and when we lost, I was an idiot.  Both were true at times.  You can only control what you can control.  If your son has the tools then there will come a chance for him to convince the coach to let him call a game.  If not, ...  I'll say this again, it is apparent that you don't have any respect for this coach.  I would remove my child.  PA2016 Backstop, here is what is going to happen.  You are going to talk with your son about the coach.  Your son will be placed in a situation where he is disloyal.  At some point, both you and your son will say things public.  This will get back to the coach.  If this coach is as you say he is, then disloyalty will result in your son hitting the pine or thrown off the team.  That is, if this coach has any guts. I made it clear that disloyalty would never be tolerated in my program.  

I have never and would never bad mouth the coach to my son bc that doesn't accomplish anything like you pointed out. Here is a funny/uncomfortable story show how I try to instill in my kids that no matter what their coach no matter what should be respected. Last year my youngest was at a 14U practice and one of the coach helper dads was hanging around the plate during BP. I was sitting in the bleachers enjoying the day. The coach started correcting the way my son was laying down bunts. He wanted him to completely turn his body and completely square up to the pitcher. My son had this puzzled look on his face, I will never forget it, and tried what the coach was telling him out of respect. After a few the coach kept telling him to square up more and he finally tried to tell this guy he didn't want to do bc it was wrong and then turns to me and says, "that isn't the right way to bunt, right"? Talk about uncomfortable and being put on the spot. I started to walk over and told him that he is on the field coaching you and you need to do what the coach wants. After practice we talked about it and had a good laugh but he knows that what the coach says needs to respected. I should have cussed the guy out for trying to get my kid killed or at least a broken face.

I'll reserve my comments on the bunting and say that I want to wish you and your son Good Luck!

 

Take care,

 

Darrell

 

Bunt like you mean it!

 

http://www.webball.com/cms/page1475.cfm

And thanks for commenting. Even though we didn't agree on some things I did take way some points you made and did reinforce some things for me; the kid is ultimately in control of their destiny and to control what you can control.

Maybe this coach will surprise him and give him a shot.

These days you can't fool the kids.  It doesn't take the parents to point out to them a coach's good and bad points.  I was having a discussion with my kid and his buddy about one of their HS basketball coaches.  Their take -- the guy was clueless on how to run drills (insert funny imitation) but very good when it came to coaching their shooting. 

It's really incredible to me that such a moron coach was able to lead his team to an 18-2 record last year and a rank in the top 40 in his state.  How on earth did those poor players overcome such incompetent leadership?

I haven't lived through this yet, and I hope never to do so...BUT....if the HC is rubbing you this raw, and doing things as out of whack as you say wouldn't he be the laughing stock of the baseball world over there?  Wouldn't he be considered a joke and no college people would ever take him seriously?  So what's the big deal for you and your son?  Your son can do whatever the coach wants him to do in his domain and during travel ball and summer league's he can show off his knowledge and get recruited, or not, based on the skills he has learned from other coaches. 

 

If the HC is as clueless as you believe him to be then you have two choices, quit the team or live by his rules and not try to change him.  Focus your energy on more positive things to help your son like maybe some private lessons?

 

Us parents have a saying on our team, once our kid joined the team our only jobs are to "drive the car and write the checks"...and reevaluate in the summer.  It's up to the kid/player to make what he wants out of that team, you won't change the coach's mind so sit back and drive the car and write the checks :-)

Eh - not so fast.  I'm not gonna say your coach was right...or wrong.

Sometimes in today's HS coaching world (heck, teaching world), parents can be so overbearing in micromanaging their child's coach/teacher...'his tutor says this,' 'his hitting instructor says that,' blah, blah, blah.  Parents can be so mettlesome these days that I know some REALLY GOOD HS and travel coaches want to just throw up their hands and occasionally they lay down a seemingly unreasonable rule.

 

Has that happened here?  Don't know.  But I sincerely doubt its as simple as you make it sound.

 

Keep this in mind - you are PAYING a hitting/pitching instructor.  Their PAY depends on you liking them.  What gets them to like you?  1. Results.  But I suggest that 2. is telling you good things about your son and all of his potential and whats wrong with others instructing him.  The HS coach is an EASY target.  Calling pitches for the catcher from the bench is NOT a sign of a control freak or lousy coach - unless you wanna put that label on over half of the high D1 coaches in America.