Advise on playing up

I would suggest he play up. My own son, though just 14 (and a "young" 14 at that)played 18U Colt-Palomino ball this past summer and is playing in a 18U fall league. Not hyper-competitive select ball, but he saw pitching and hitting comparable to HS JV and varsity ball. He had a great time and got to know and play with some of the upperclassmen of the school he attends.

JohnU

PlayWithHeart,
Great question. Could go either way. He could dominate at the lower levels and provide him with greater satisfaction and an ego boost ---- or the extra challenge at the higher level could also spur him on. Personally I think it depends on the ability and the maturity of the player. If a player cannot compete at the higher level all sorts of problems arise. However if a player CAN compete at the higher level I suggest you encourage him to do so. Moving my son up was one of the better things I did starting when he was 12 years old. If your son does move up, monitor the situation to make sure he can handled the talent AND the increase in peer pressure. Keep us posted.
Fungo

I agree with Fungo. Playing up can definitley help a kid to reach his potential. When you have to scrap for every at bat and every play it really teaches a kid how to play the game. But there is a big downside. How much frustration can your kid handle? Every kid is different. My own son played up against kids who were shaving. He could compete with them, but it was very frustating to him when he wanted to play other positions and he just wasn't strong enough to compete for the job. He ended up playing his own age part of the time and he truly enjoyed dominating his age group.

IMO, a kid has to have fun and do well. Playing up will help your kid in his baseball skills but you need to monitor how he is doing emotionally. It doesn't matter if he gets real good but ends up quitting the sport.

A lot depends on his talent level at this point.

My son is doing that right now. He is playing on a 14U team as a 13 year old because he will be in high school next year. He is playing with all 8th graders this year for that reason. There are some current freshman that he will play against but all of his teammates (except one) are in his high school class.

If all of those boys are playing 14U then he should be doing the same, no matter the age. Now if he is playing at a marginal level at 13U then moving him up may not be in his best interest. My son also hasn't hit puberty fully but he is an above average ballplayer at this point of his development so putting him out there wasn't a problem. If your son is playing better than similar kids his size then consider it.

First I have to say I hate the term "select" being applied to any team that isn't a 17/18U team playing showcases.

My son is has a late spring birthday. When the date changed he could have returned for a second 12yo season. He never gave it consideration even though the all-star coaches asked. He wanted to play big boy ball on the 60/90 even though he was only 5'2", 100. He tore LL apart the previous year. There was nothing developmentally left to accompllish. He played with his grade rather than his age the following summer playing 13U. After frosh year he played 16U. After soph year he played 17/18U.

My feeling is a kid should get on the full size field for two years before high school. Most of the kids he will competing with in high school will have done so. After adapting to the full size field and physically developing he should play up to any level he can handle.

My only question is will he get playing time if he moves up? If the answer is no, or very little then it will do him no good. If he will get playing time then move him on up, it will only help him in the long run

I agree with dan. Don't ever be on a team unless your kid is going to play a lot.

Other important considerations, besides level of competition and playing time, are the quality and philosophy of the coaches. The coaches of my son's fall team have him playing 2B, a position he has played essentially none the past three years. Took some time to adapt to that side of the infield (played a lot of 3B when he wasn't pitching) but they have been patient in teaching him.

Never a bad thing to learn another position!

JohnU

Play with your grade, not age. There are not separate teams in high school for frosh that play U-15 versus frosh that play U-14 if you catch my drift. In high school he is going to play with people his grade, so why when the season is over would you want him then to play down with people a grade less??

If the player plans to play HS and college baseball, he is going to play up and compete with older guys. One thing I still don't get is when parents spend $350-$500 on showcases before the player is a HS Junior.

I will add something to think about for parents of younger children than the OP that are thinking about playing up.My son is very young and still very much a boy.He has played and practiced with teams with players that are 2-3 years older and going through puberty.What the older boys talk about outside of the game is very different compared to what my son's age boys talk about.Things like girls,going on dates,and whatever else teen age boys talk about.

My advice is to make sure to prepare you child for those situations and make sure your child also has freinds his own age.As much as I want my son to be challenged and grow as a player,I don't want my son to grow up too soon and miss out on just being a boy.

quote:

Originally posted by Sugi:
I will add something to think about for parents of younger children than the OP that are thinking about playing up.My son is very young and still very much a boy.He has played and practiced with teams with players that are 2-3 years older and going through puberty.What the older boys talk about outside of the game is very different compared to what my son's age boys talk about.Things like girls,going on dates,and whatever else teen age boys talk about.

My advice is to make sure to prepare you child for those situations and make sure your child also has freinds his own age.As much as I want my son to be challenged and grow as a player,I don't want my son to grow up too soon and miss out on just being a boy.

Very true. My son was 12 and was asked to fill in during a tourney for a 14 year old squad. The coach of the team knew my son and knew he was a good ballplayer but I was still suprised when a not yet 7th grader was asked to play on a team with some high school freshmen.

He did fine (actually was 4-5 in the two games they played, suprised himself more than he did me) but he told me flat out that some of the boys were using language he wasn't used to. A year and a half later he probably fits in better with those same kids but I do remember him being 5'1 and all the other kids being 5'8 or taller.

quote:

Originally posted by Wklink:

quote:

Originally posted by Sugi:
I will add something to think about for parents of younger children than the OP that are thinking about playing up.My son is very young and still very much a boy.He has played and practiced with teams with players that are 2-3 years older and going through puberty.What the older boys talk about outside of the game is very different compared to what my son's age boys talk about.Things like girls,going on dates,and whatever else teen age boys talk about.

My advice is to make sure to prepare you child for those situations and make sure your child also has freinds his own age.As much as I want my son to be challenged and grow as a player,I don't want my son to grow up too soon and miss out on just being a boy.

... I do remember him being 5'1 and all the other kids being 5'8 or taller.

When my son was playing 13U (5'2") he was asked to fill in on a 16U community based travel team. I told my son the only difference will be they're a foot taller, have car keys and razors. You should have seen the look on these guys faces as he walked up for BP. It was, "Who the %*&^%$ is this kid?" They stopped asking after he doubled, stole third and scored on a grounder to lead off the game. They were more impressed when he took a fastball in the arm to force in a run.

I was mildly concerned with what might be discussed in the dugout. I coached and my daughter played 18U softball when she was fifteen. I heard stuff I didn't want to hear. My son wouldn't discuss it. Whatever it was he wasn't harmed playing a doubleheder.

If your son is competing at the higher level I say allow him to play up. By playing against players older than he is will maybe drive him to excel his skill level. I ran in to this same issue last spring and can speak from experience what it has done for my son.

My son is 11 years old and started at SS for a 14u Major team during the spring and summer and is currently playing for a 14u team this fall and starting at SS. He actually seems to enjoy the game more than he did playing on the smaller fields 50/70


The 60/90 field has tested him beyond what the smaller fields could do and it has caused him to really step his game up playing with these older young men. Not to mention but it has also helped him with his mental approach to the game by being around other baseball players older than he is.

This situation may not work for everyone because of this type age difference but all these young men on both teams have accepted him as an equal and his mother and I have seen a difference in his maturity level by playing up with these 14u teams.

I can relate RJM as to how other teams respond when they see a smaller kid playing for an older team. My son as well is only 5'2 and he does get some looks when these older young men see him for the first time. However after either his first plate appearance or his first play in the field they usually take him serious. I learned a long time ago never judge a player by their physical look.

Playing up as mentioned has its advantages and disadvantages. However I personally believe that the advantages outweigh the disadvantages.

On a side note how do you add an avatar picture to your profile?

I would have him play down. Yes he might get more exposure to playing with bigger kids and get him ready for hs but you don’t want him to get dis courage because the kids are going to be bigger than him. You have a whole year to get him ready for hs, there is no rush, let him stand out more and catch some people attention.

I would play him down. The game is much faster on the smaller fields hence harder to play. As the field gets bigger it gives infielders more time to make plays. As for hitting, the ball will come in on the batter much quicker from the shorter mound. Yes the breaking stuff will have more break and the fastball will have more movement, but it is the speed of the game that separates the really good players. The ones that excel at the higher levels are the ones that can keep up with the speed of the game. IMHO

The goal of middle school ball is to prepare your son for high school ball.

I agree with RJM that two years on the big diamond is the usual preparation for high school. I can't imagine letting him try out for the high school team without having played on a full-size field.

I do not agree with standballdad's views about the game being faster on the smaller diamond. The smallness of the field is offset by the smaller, weaker, slower players. To the extent that some plays do happen faster on the small diamond (e.g., grounders to the left side), they do so in a manner that prevents players from realizing the need to develop speed, range, or arm strength.

He's already in 8th grade. Get him to the big diamond now.

Swampboy, I respect what you are saying but, you are assuming the boys playing on the smaller field are weaker and slower. there are some very good 13U teams with studs on them that make the game extremely fast. A big 13U kid with a good fastball is considerably much quicker to the plate from 54 feet versus a kid that is throwing from 60, and on the reverse side, a lot of 14U teams have slow and weaker players that are playing because that is the correct age for them to play. My only point is that you have less time to make the plays at 80' than you do 90' and the ball is on you quicker from 54' versus 60'. The key here is facing good 13U teams on the smaller field.

*they do so in a manner that prevents players from realizing the need to develop speed, range, or arm strength.*

IMO you do not develop speed, range and arm strength from playing on a bigger field. These things are more a matter of genetics than anything else, but you can improve on the tools you have with good technique (throwing, release, footwork etc...). If you can master these things on the small field where your margin of error is less, it will make it easier on the bigger field IMO. I love this stuff on the board. Really opens up some very good discussions.

My son has a May bday too and we sort of compromised; he played "up" with his grade pretty much all of the time but occasionally joined a very good younger team for a few big tournaments. He had a lot of fun playing with both groups...is this an option for you? If your son is tearing it up in the younger age group, chances are he would be invited if he let the younger team know he is available for periodic tourneys.

My son has a late July birthday, but he played all his LL with his grade. So at times he was playing against kids 1-2 years older; he did fine. Now he is starting his HS career as a freshman; this summer the coach has already said that he wants him playing in the 18U league (he will still be only 14 during the summer league). I feel that he enjoyed playing with his grade as opposed to his age. I am a bit concerned with him playing in the 18U league, but I look at it this way: when he is a senior he will have 4 years of experience against 18 year olds.

Standballdad,

If the original poster had presented his dilemma as a choice between playing with 13U studs or 14U scrubs, I might try to put aside my skepticism of your claim that pre-pubescent boys play that game faster than boys with muscles and hair under their arms do.

However, given the situation he did describe--of a small but strong and athletic player who has a choice of being one of the older but smaller players on a 13U team or one of the youngest and smallest on a 14U team--I continue to believe he should begin competing now on the same field with the players in his grade against whom he will be competing in one year for spots on a high school roster.

Lots of kids who think they are fast and have strong arms and pop in their bats find occasion to re-assess after they move to the full-sized diamond.

Showing up for high school tryouts without having competed against kids in his grade or on the big field would be courting failure.

When my son was your son's age he played on a team with 18 year olds. It was a mistake. He came out of it ok (other than an injury), but in hindsight it was a bad idea.

18 year old boys are actually men. There are topics of conversation in the dugout which may be appropriate for 18 year olds but not 14 year olds. The risk of injury is much greater than it is playing within a year of two of his own age group. Socially it is a hindrance.

I don't see upside.

Swampboy,



"If the original poster had presented his dilemma as a choice between playing with 13U studs or 14U scrubs, I might try to put aside my skepticism of your claim that pre-pubescent boys play that game faster than boys with muscles and hair under their arms do."

It is not only playing with bigger stronger guys that make the game faster, my point is that is also the size of the field makes the game faster.


"Lots of kids who think they are fast and have strong arms and pop in their bats find occasion to re-assess after they move to the full-sized diamond."

Moving to a bigger field will not remedy any of these issues that you point out. What you are saying (I think) is that if a kid moves to a bigger field he will hit the ball harder and throw harder. As I said in my earlier post, good mechanics and technique is the key here. I just think IMHO that playing on a smaller field forces the player to improve on mechanics and technique because the margin of error is less. I kinda of like Johnkc66220 idea, that if you really think playing on a bigger field is the answer than maybe playing on both would be a suggestion.

I keep thinking of that scene in "Hoosiers" when Gene Hackman measures the rim to show the Hickory players they're still playing the same game they've played all year. . . then my imagination fast forwards to next spring when the dad of this boy sneaks on to the high school field the day before tryouts with a tape measure to bolster his boy's confidence and the teachable moment is shattered when the small 9th grader, says, "Holy %$#&, Dad! I gotta run 90 feet to get to first base now? And if the shortstop plays way back there, all my little bloop hits to the outfield are gonna go right to him. And I think I'll have to put some major air under my throws from 3rd."

"Don't worry, Son," the Dad will assure him. "You've been playing a faster game. This will be easy for you."

StandballDad, you're confusing the quicker reaction times of certain plays on the smaller diamond with speed of the game. Think about what happens on a ball in the 5-6 hole. On the little diamond, it's through to left field before either infielder takes 2 steps. On the big diamond, both infielders cover a lot of ground taking different angles to make plays on the run. If the ss makes the play, he has to stop his momentum in a hurry and quickly make a strong throw that is longer than any throw any ss makes on the little diamond. Meanwhile, the batter runner has to motor down all 90 feet of the line to beat that throw. That's the kind difference the little diamond doesn't prepare you for.

In any sport, players get better by playing better competition. It convinces them of the need to get better and it shows them what better players do.

You do know the ESPN announcers are b.s.-ing when they say a 60-something fb at Williamsport is the same as 90-something from a major leaguer, don't you?

quote:

You do know the ESPN announcers are b.s.-ing when they say a 60-something fb at Williamsport is the same as 90-something from a major leaguer, don't you?

What they are calculating is the equivilance in reaction time of the forty-five foot pitching distance to the sixty foot pitching difference. But breaking pitches from sixty feet thrown 75-90 can be nasty. LL/12U curves are lollipops compared to what's seen on the big field.

quote:

I just think IMHO that playing on a smaller field forces the player to improve on mechanics and technique because the margin of error is less.

A kid won't know if he's a ball player until he can get it done on the big field. I've seen kids look fundamentally sound on the small field have their fundamentals go to hell on the big field because they couldn't handle the change. Playing baseball on anything less than a 60/90 field is like playing with training wheels.

Swampboy & RJM,

Just so that we are clear on what I am referring to as far as a smaller field in California travel ball, 13U plays on a 54/80 foot diamond. Not that great a difference from 60/90, but just enough to "Speed up the Game". I am not talking about the LL field which is a totally different game. Balls in the 5-6 hole on a 54/80 are no different than on a 60/90, other than the ball gets to the whole a little quicker and the runner gets to 1B a little sooner. The SS that makes this play better have the right technique/mechanics or he has absolutely no chance, but I have seen this play made on a 54/80.

"Holy %$#&, Dad! I gotta run 90 feet to get to first base now? And if the shortstop plays way back there, all my little bloop hits to the outfield are gonna go right to him. And I think I'll have to put some major air under my throws from 3rd."

BTW, you are confused with what the big diamond will do for a kid. It will not make him run any FASTER to 1B,it will not make him hit any FURTHER and it will not make his arm any STRONGER. That's like saying if I make the fences all 500 ft the players will start hitting it further etc... Really? then I am going to start having my kid play on a really big field, maybe 70/100 and he will be that much farther ahead of everyone else.

StandballDad,

By golly, you're absolutely right.

Unfortunately, I don't live in California, so we don't have any of those magic fields that speed up the game without changing its dynamics.

However, I thank you for explaining why all the best college teams practice on smaller fields. Now I know it simulates a faster pace of the game and requires perfect execution of skills.

P.S. to RJM,
I think he's saying that small training wheels are better than no training wheels.

By golly you are right, they all must play on bigger than normal fields back East to get even better!! That way they can get faster and stronger! Right? LOL, Seriously I respect what you are saying, just don't agree. Just offering my opinion on not being in a hurry to play up. Bye.

Actually, I respect what you're saying, too. I just think that when playing up means joining your classmates, sooner is better.

I can see that point. Can we hug now, JK

Yeah.

My experience the "need" to play up comes into play much more when there is a lack of local competition, & the boys are 6,7,8,9 not 13 or 14 years old. On occasion, will run across a Dad who's adamant on playing his smaller 13U on a 14U team in first year of 60-90 Ball, but it usually is a result of not being able to find him a spot on a decent 13U team & Dad thinks it will help JR (usually well behind his age group skill wise).

Another scenario, that pops up every year, instead of playing first year of school ball, a few of our younger 8th graders have chosen to play only on their 13 Major travel teams. A few parents even hold these very dominant young 8th graders back a year in school. I don't have a problem with that, esp when they are smaller guys & really strong ballplayers for their age. Locally, Spring middle school ball is horrible, nothing more than a weed-out process of BALLPLAYERS & the dozen or so who played bad baseball at 9 or 10 & now think they'll give baseball a whirl again.

As far as having a hard time making the jump to 60-90 fields, I haven't seen it with any of our players who were dominant on the 50-70 AND the 54-80 fields. Playing a few Fall tourns along with over 60 games in the Spring on the 54-80, then rolling into 60-90 has proved no big deal both times through with my own sons & teammates. Would I have preferred either of of these groups being forced to play 60-90 at 12 or barely 13, NO, it would not have have done a single one our players any good.

My son played "Up" ( from 4yr) after teeballs 1st game he hit a ball to 1st base area he got throw out but in tee ball all got to hit and no one was out
( they tried to make him get on base he'd have none of that) He didn't understand that ,on TV they was OUT so he was out too. So i moved him to a coach pitch team. I was lucky we started with Ymca, city use same fields and started after Ymca short season.
So he played up ever year intill he was 14 at 14 he played 14U travel then he joined highschool where he played UP again as alot kid on HS team are 16-17-18yr old.
This year as a 10th grader he is playing "up" with 11th and 12th graders.
The only way to tell where your son should be is watch him and ask him.

"If you put your hand in warm water after a short time it not so warm. If you put your hand in hot water it can hurt."Frank The Plumber"

The only reason for a little kid to play up is if it's likely he's going to be a danger to the other players. Little kids should be playing with their friends. Before puberty kids may be physically plus or minus three years their actual age. Therefore playing up as a preteen is meaningless. Once the player conquers the 60/90 field in seventh grade and/or 13U he should be playing up to whatever level he can handle.

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Originally posted by PlayWithHeart:
My dilemna is whether or not to let him play 14U now to get ready for the BIG field. Any ideas?

There's no rule that says your son needs to have a uniform, coach, umpire and walk up music to become acclimated to a 'big field'. Just grab a bucket of balls and go. I didn't 'have to' play on the 60-90 field until eighth grade, but believe me, I didn't wait until eighth grade to find out how far it is from first to third. We were on the big field hundreds of times before that- by ourselves. And, it was free.