Since 17% (I think) of the population is black I think 17% of all baseball players should be black.
And, since around 80% of the population is white, I think all NBA teams should be 80% white.
Its-Thanks for the clarification- your point is well-taken 
.
.
A couple of things as I've watched this evolve:
PG, you might be right on the basketball scholarship myth. But, as parents, before we start doing our homework and get smart, how many of us get absolute sticker shock when we look at the price of college? So we tell our kids you'd better get a full scholarship, because otherwise you've got no shot.
And there are no full scholarships in baseball, so we hear.
Hey, because of what I do, I knew the facts and figures, knew many of the ways to make it work anyway long before my oldest began worrying about college. I still got sticker shock and, going through it again with another child in another sport, I still get it.
For every parent who has ever visited these boards, there are how many that haven't? For every parent who tries to learn about the process, how many know little or nothing?
Ignorance can be bliss. But it often is costly, too.
We've also danced around another issue that plays a big part in this debate, especially as it pertains to college: EGO
There aren't many places where a spot on the basketball team doesn't pump it. And it pumps the rural country kid playing in a 200-seat gym as much as it pumps the suburban kid playing in a 3,000-seat gym as much as it pumps the inner-city kid playing in gyms big and small.
Everybody in town/school goes to the games, if only because there isn't anything better to do. A full gym is loud. Loud is good.
Not many high school baseball teams can offer anything near that, not until tournament time at best. Sure, as the weather warms up and the jackets and sweats become t-shirts and shorts, it gets good. But a crowd of 50 in a temperature of 50 doesn't do much for anyone's ego, especially a 16- or 17-year-old kid.
I know the drive to succeed has to come from within. But at that age, a little BMOC goes a long way.
PG, you might be right on the basketball scholarship myth. But, as parents, before we start doing our homework and get smart, how many of us get absolute sticker shock when we look at the price of college? So we tell our kids you'd better get a full scholarship, because otherwise you've got no shot.
And there are no full scholarships in baseball, so we hear.
Hey, because of what I do, I knew the facts and figures, knew many of the ways to make it work anyway long before my oldest began worrying about college. I still got sticker shock and, going through it again with another child in another sport, I still get it.
For every parent who has ever visited these boards, there are how many that haven't? For every parent who tries to learn about the process, how many know little or nothing?
Ignorance can be bliss. But it often is costly, too.
We've also danced around another issue that plays a big part in this debate, especially as it pertains to college: EGO
There aren't many places where a spot on the basketball team doesn't pump it. And it pumps the rural country kid playing in a 200-seat gym as much as it pumps the suburban kid playing in a 3,000-seat gym as much as it pumps the inner-city kid playing in gyms big and small.
Everybody in town/school goes to the games, if only because there isn't anything better to do. A full gym is loud. Loud is good.
Not many high school baseball teams can offer anything near that, not until tournament time at best. Sure, as the weather warms up and the jackets and sweats become t-shirts and shorts, it gets good. But a crowd of 50 in a temperature of 50 doesn't do much for anyone's ego, especially a 16- or 17-year-old kid.
I know the drive to succeed has to come from within. But at that age, a little BMOC goes a long way.
OldVaman,
You're right about that!
In most high schools and colleges around the country... The big deal with the most attention and biggest crowds is...
#1 Football
#2 Basketball
#3 Other Sports
That can be very appealing to talented young athletes.
It really doesn't change much until the professional level.
You're right about that!
In most high schools and colleges around the country... The big deal with the most attention and biggest crowds is...
#1 Football
#2 Basketball
#3 Other Sports
That can be very appealing to talented young athletes.
It really doesn't change much until the professional level.
Linear
sounds like a quata system? What is the big deal anyway. As a former coach if I had a team to pick I would want the best players. If the best players were green I would pick them. Common sense. Remember that concept.
sounds like a quata system? What is the big deal anyway. As a former coach if I had a team to pick I would want the best players. If the best players were green I would pick them. Common sense. Remember that concept.
Linears statement smacks of extreme bias
As for crowds at hs hoops forget here in many North east towns--Msany HS games start at 4 PM in the afternoon and this hardly makes for a "pump up" situation for the players
Will- I am with you-- we always want the best palyers regardless of ethnic and religious background
Just a few thoughts on why kids play hoops rather than baseball
01-- the "I wanna be like Mike" syndrome--baseball does not and has not had a spokesman like Jordan for many years
02-- all you need is two players, a ball and a hoop to play basketball
03 --I dont buy the money aspect because the kids playing hoops are wearing 150 dollar sneakers
As for crowds at hs hoops forget here in many North east towns--Msany HS games start at 4 PM in the afternoon and this hardly makes for a "pump up" situation for the players
Will- I am with you-- we always want the best palyers regardless of ethnic and religious background
Just a few thoughts on why kids play hoops rather than baseball
01-- the "I wanna be like Mike" syndrome--baseball does not and has not had a spokesman like Jordan for many years
02-- all you need is two players, a ball and a hoop to play basketball
03 --I dont buy the money aspect because the kids playing hoops are wearing 150 dollar sneakers
TR,
Your post reminded me of something in my youth. Good memories of course. I loved Basketball, football and baseball. I know times have changed but...
How many here played imaginary games of baseball all by yourself. When I couldn't find someone to play catch with or play games in the neighborhood it was just me with a rubber baseball and a wall. I could pitch (had a strike zone) and field and keep score in my head.
Throw the pitch - field the ball - make the throw - make the catch - throw one hop off the wall and make the play in the air - even umpire the game, over and over and over for hours and hours.
All that was required was one person (me), a rubber baseball (about .29 cents back then) and my glove. I became a very good defensive player because of all those hours spent alone. Also developed a strong arm and a good feel for the game. However, it took until about the 9th grade before becoming a good hitter! (for obvious reasons).
Thanks for the memory, If only possible, I would do it all over again. Who else played these solo games?
Your post reminded me of something in my youth. Good memories of course. I loved Basketball, football and baseball. I know times have changed but...
How many here played imaginary games of baseball all by yourself. When I couldn't find someone to play catch with or play games in the neighborhood it was just me with a rubber baseball and a wall. I could pitch (had a strike zone) and field and keep score in my head.
Throw the pitch - field the ball - make the throw - make the catch - throw one hop off the wall and make the play in the air - even umpire the game, over and over and over for hours and hours.
All that was required was one person (me), a rubber baseball (about .29 cents back then) and my glove. I became a very good defensive player because of all those hours spent alone. Also developed a strong arm and a good feel for the game. However, it took until about the 9th grade before becoming a good hitter! (for obvious reasons).
Thanks for the memory, If only possible, I would do it all over again. Who else played these solo games?
quote:Who else played these solo games?
Guilty as charged. Only difference was I had to use tennis balls. Many fond memories of getting the last strikeout to win the WS. Drew the stike zone on a retaining wall and threw and fielded all day. I'm sure I went over my pitch count which probably cost me my shot at the bigs.
...no $200 bat for you during T-Ball, PGStaff.
That was the problem.
That was the problem.
...house ball made of newspaper and masking tape, plastic bat.
Pitch from down the hall had to break through the door into strike zone of big chair in the living room.
Batter did not see delivery only sound and breaking ball coming through the door.
And then from far back in the house, "YOU BOYS GET OUTSIDE WITH THAT GAME........"
Pitch from down the hall had to break through the door into strike zone of big chair in the living room.
Batter did not see delivery only sound and breaking ball coming through the door.
And then from far back in the house, "YOU BOYS GET OUTSIDE WITH THAT GAME........"
PG
If there was a wall I was throwing against
Did you ever play "stoop ball"
I even created my own "baseball league" complete with stats and radio broadcasts of the games in my room
If there was a wall I was throwing against
Did you ever play "stoop ball"
I even created my own "baseball league" complete with stats and radio broadcasts of the games in my room
FO,
The solo games did not include hitting,,, just throwing and fielding. I never played T-Ball in my life, not sure it existed back then. For $200 I could have bouight a life time supply of "Willie Mays" model Adirondacks. My mom 
would not allow "house ball". 
However the basement was used all winter for dribbling a basketball and making "great" passes off the concrete walls. Lots of yelling coming from up above.
Frank,
Pitch counts had to go into the thousands! That last out was big, talk about pressure!
The solo games did not include hitting,,, just throwing and fielding. I never played T-Ball in my life, not sure it existed back then. For $200 I could have bouight a life time supply of "Willie Mays" model Adirondacks.
My mom would not allow "house ball". However the basement was used all winter for dribbling a basketball and making "great" passes off the concrete walls. Lots of yelling coming from up above. Frank,
Pitch counts had to go into the thousands! That last out was big, talk about pressure!
TR,
You keep bringing back memories.
We had this older kid in the neighborhood who would do the play by play as we played basketball. He was good at it and us younger kids felt like the game was actually being broadcast live.
I can still remember it... Ford fakes left and goes base line... Stops and pops a jumper... it's goooood. Somehow, it made the games much more fun and funny!
You keep bringing back memories.
We had this older kid in the neighborhood who would do the play by play as we played basketball. He was good at it and us younger kids felt like the game was actually being broadcast live.
I can still remember it... Ford fakes left and goes base line... Stops and pops a jumper... it's goooood. Somehow, it made the games much more fun and funny!
PG
I can take it even further into a "never never land"
We had a young man in the nieghborhood who was severely retarded as they called it (he was 40ish with a 10 year olds mind) back then but not to the point he did not know his baseball. He played stickball every day in season and was the Brooklyn Dodgers--he knew every player and as he played each game he knew the current batting average etc and pitching stats of every Dodger--he played the full 154 game season against anyone he could and even did the play by play--now stepping to the plate................
I can still see him and on top of it all he showed at every HS game to cheer for us
Amazing the things we recall once we press the recall button
I can take it even further into a "never never land"
We had a young man in the nieghborhood who was severely retarded as they called it (he was 40ish with a 10 year olds mind) back then but not to the point he did not know his baseball. He played stickball every day in season and was the Brooklyn Dodgers--he knew every player and as he played each game he knew the current batting average etc and pitching stats of every Dodger--he played the full 154 game season against anyone he could and even did the play by play--now stepping to the plate................
I can still see him and on top of it all he showed at every HS game to cheer for us
Amazing the things we recall once we press the recall button
Not sure how many times I want to press that recall button, but so far so good! 
PG
Sometimes it is fun especially at my age--it is nice to know that the memory still functions to some small degree
Sometimes it is fun especially at my age--it is nice to know that the memory still functions to some small degree
Long term memory is fine. Remember things clearly.
I worry much more about remembering what happened an hour ago!
I worry much more about remembering what happened an hour ago!
Duh
What did I have for breakfast today??
\
What did I have for breakfast today??
\
]quote:
These kids play ball morning, noon and night...and the MLB scouts are signing them for peanuts...compared to our kids.
I wouldnt say their signing for peanuts, we had 2 16 year olds and a 17 year old for our team in instructional ball one got about 400K other 2 around 200K, then the rest of them are still getting decent amount of money. There are agents down there too now, so not as many of them are signing for as cheap as you would think.
Any in depth study would find a huge differential in the cost of signing foreign born players compared to African American players. That is 1 of many reasons for the percentage disparity.
WOW stoop ball!!!
Loved my blue SPALDING!!!!
Loved my blue SPALDING!!!!
Never saw a blue spalding
They were always pink
Must be a California thing !!!
They were always pink
Must be a California thing !!!
I have been out of coaching for several years. Yes I did the street thing as a kid so I know what that is all about. I have gone to games and I see the kids with the 300 bats whose parents spend money for lessons and travel ball and elite ball and whatever ball money will allow them to play and some of them can't play a lick.
This thread has been very interesting. Every year around this time the topic of Blacks in Baseball, or the lack there of, comes up. And every year the same reasons pop up: Baseball is too expensive for Blacks; the lack of playing fields in the inner city; and, there is more interest among Blacks in football and basketball than in baseball. While all of these reasons may have minimal impact, none of them is the true reason why, in my humble opinion, there are less Blacks playing college and pro baseball. Honestly, guys, I sometimes feel like Richard Wright's, Invisible Man, on these boards when we talk about this particular topic. My take on this is so different from many of yours.
In my particular area of the country, there are more Blacks in the suburbs than there are in the inner City of Atlanta. The "inner" City of Atlanta is fast becoming half White. Give it another five years and it will be, which will be a good thing for Atlanta. Atlanta was once predominantly White, but Whites succumbed to "White Flight." I work with a large number of those who fled and they regret it. Many of them would like to move back close to their jobs but now cannot even afford to move back into the very house they sold because the property values in Atlanta have literally gone through the roof.
Now please hear me on this: Thousands of Black kids all over the Atlanta Metropolitan area play teeball/baseball during the ages of 5 through 12 or 13. We have baseball parks all over the place and each Spring they are teeming with young Black players. It is around the age of 13 that you see Black kids start to give up baseball. Usually, many of them have played baseball, basketball and football during those years.
Okay, now this kid is in junior high where the high school football and basketball coaches have a huge network to identify those young players who have the ability to play football and basketball. Once those kids have been identified the pressure is on.
I've made this point countless times before: Genetics (Height), for the most part, will determine which of those young players will play basketball. For the other good athletes, the high school football coach has only to point to the College and Pro baseball rosters to "prove" to the young athlete that he does not have a snowball's chance in hell of succeeding in baseball. The football coaches will literally hound these players until either the parents step in, which was our case, or until the athlete gives in. Folks, believe me, it doesn't take much to convince most great Black athletes who also have football abilities to give up baseball. All the coach has to do is ask these three questions: "How many Blacks do you see on (any major D-1 baseball team)?" How many Blacks do you see on (any Pro baseball team)? To these questions the kid will answer, without even having to think about it, either "none" or "1 or 2"). Then the final question: "In which sport do you see yourself having a chance to succeed past the high school level and possibly get any kind of scholarship or even make a living?" I'll let you all answer that question.
Many of you may say that if the athlete "loves" the game of baseball then he won't allow anyone to change his mind. People, we are talking about kids who have dreams of succeeding in life. Many of whom, but not all, and certainly not as many as you would think, come from families whose incomes are below the poverty level. (As a sidebar, and I think many of you can attest, that just because your family's income does not meet the threshold that the government says you should exceed to get out of the poverty level status, does not make you poor.) These kids want to succeed in baseball and if a Black parent, even a poor Black parent thought that it would pay off in the end with some assistance in college and beyond, they would go without, if they had to, to provide there child with the proper baseball equipment, no matter how expensive.
The great Black athletes who remain in baseball definitely do so because they love the game. But even the love for the game is wearing thin for many of these athletes because of the very reason that bbscout said: Black baseball players are not being recruited by college recruiters! It is at this level that Black baseball players are being lost.
I will also say that unless the Black baseball player is a super stud like Delmon Young or a Prince Fielder or a Rickie Weeks they get ignored even by the pro scouts. The regular solid, good, Black baseball player is ignored by everyone. It's almost like a Black baseball player has to be a super stud already, to even get noticed and eventually drafted. If I were a Scouting Director, who was truely interested in increasing the number of Blacks in baseball, I would give my scouts these instructions: "We know that the first 10 or so rounds are reserved for those players who are rated very high, and that should not change. What I would like for you to do is this. Focus part of your efforts on finding Black players who have good solid skills, who are not your stand-outs, but can play the game. Draft them in the later rounds and let's see what happens." I'm simplifying this a lot but I think you get my point.
This seems to be a no-brainer to me. When will baseball recruiters and scouts realize that many Black baseball players have not had the training and instruction that many Whites have had because many baseball coaches in the Black communities lack the skills to teach them. Typically, Black baseball coaches didn't play baseball in college or professionally and truthfully don't really know a lot about what it takes to properly develop a good hitter or fielder, let alone teach the proper mechanics to develop a good pitcher.
Many of you know that I am a realist and I go over board to be fair. But I also call it like I see it. Some of the blame lies at the feet of the Black pro baseball athlete who, once they have retired, does not come back to the Black community and teach our young kids the proper way to play baseball as many of the retired White pro athletes do. I can name Tony Gwynn and maybe a few others and that's it. But, to be fair, there are not very many Black retired pro baseball players to begin with. So, what's the solution?
Until, we put into place some means, or some incentives, for college recruiters and in many cases, pro scouts, to look beyond the stereotypes and know that there are many good Black baseball players out there who love the game of baseball and only need a opportunity to get good instruction, develop and prove that they can play, then nothing will change.
...And so here we are again discussing the same issue that we discussed last year and still, nothing has changed.
In my particular area of the country, there are more Blacks in the suburbs than there are in the inner City of Atlanta. The "inner" City of Atlanta is fast becoming half White. Give it another five years and it will be, which will be a good thing for Atlanta. Atlanta was once predominantly White, but Whites succumbed to "White Flight." I work with a large number of those who fled and they regret it. Many of them would like to move back close to their jobs but now cannot even afford to move back into the very house they sold because the property values in Atlanta have literally gone through the roof.
Now please hear me on this: Thousands of Black kids all over the Atlanta Metropolitan area play teeball/baseball during the ages of 5 through 12 or 13. We have baseball parks all over the place and each Spring they are teeming with young Black players. It is around the age of 13 that you see Black kids start to give up baseball. Usually, many of them have played baseball, basketball and football during those years.
Okay, now this kid is in junior high where the high school football and basketball coaches have a huge network to identify those young players who have the ability to play football and basketball. Once those kids have been identified the pressure is on.
I've made this point countless times before: Genetics (Height), for the most part, will determine which of those young players will play basketball. For the other good athletes, the high school football coach has only to point to the College and Pro baseball rosters to "prove" to the young athlete that he does not have a snowball's chance in hell of succeeding in baseball. The football coaches will literally hound these players until either the parents step in, which was our case, or until the athlete gives in. Folks, believe me, it doesn't take much to convince most great Black athletes who also have football abilities to give up baseball. All the coach has to do is ask these three questions: "How many Blacks do you see on (any major D-1 baseball team)?" How many Blacks do you see on (any Pro baseball team)? To these questions the kid will answer, without even having to think about it, either "none" or "1 or 2"). Then the final question: "In which sport do you see yourself having a chance to succeed past the high school level and possibly get any kind of scholarship or even make a living?" I'll let you all answer that question.
Many of you may say that if the athlete "loves" the game of baseball then he won't allow anyone to change his mind. People, we are talking about kids who have dreams of succeeding in life. Many of whom, but not all, and certainly not as many as you would think, come from families whose incomes are below the poverty level. (As a sidebar, and I think many of you can attest, that just because your family's income does not meet the threshold that the government says you should exceed to get out of the poverty level status, does not make you poor.) These kids want to succeed in baseball and if a Black parent, even a poor Black parent thought that it would pay off in the end with some assistance in college and beyond, they would go without, if they had to, to provide there child with the proper baseball equipment, no matter how expensive.
The great Black athletes who remain in baseball definitely do so because they love the game. But even the love for the game is wearing thin for many of these athletes because of the very reason that bbscout said: Black baseball players are not being recruited by college recruiters! It is at this level that Black baseball players are being lost.
I will also say that unless the Black baseball player is a super stud like Delmon Young or a Prince Fielder or a Rickie Weeks they get ignored even by the pro scouts. The regular solid, good, Black baseball player is ignored by everyone. It's almost like a Black baseball player has to be a super stud already, to even get noticed and eventually drafted. If I were a Scouting Director, who was truely interested in increasing the number of Blacks in baseball, I would give my scouts these instructions: "We know that the first 10 or so rounds are reserved for those players who are rated very high, and that should not change. What I would like for you to do is this. Focus part of your efforts on finding Black players who have good solid skills, who are not your stand-outs, but can play the game. Draft them in the later rounds and let's see what happens." I'm simplifying this a lot but I think you get my point.
This seems to be a no-brainer to me. When will baseball recruiters and scouts realize that many Black baseball players have not had the training and instruction that many Whites have had because many baseball coaches in the Black communities lack the skills to teach them. Typically, Black baseball coaches didn't play baseball in college or professionally and truthfully don't really know a lot about what it takes to properly develop a good hitter or fielder, let alone teach the proper mechanics to develop a good pitcher.
Many of you know that I am a realist and I go over board to be fair. But I also call it like I see it. Some of the blame lies at the feet of the Black pro baseball athlete who, once they have retired, does not come back to the Black community and teach our young kids the proper way to play baseball as many of the retired White pro athletes do. I can name Tony Gwynn and maybe a few others and that's it. But, to be fair, there are not very many Black retired pro baseball players to begin with. So, what's the solution?
Until, we put into place some means, or some incentives, for college recruiters and in many cases, pro scouts, to look beyond the stereotypes and know that there are many good Black baseball players out there who love the game of baseball and only need a opportunity to get good instruction, develop and prove that they can play, then nothing will change.
...And so here we are again discussing the same issue that we discussed last year and still, nothing has changed.
Why are their not more white kids playing football and basketball? Around here most of the HS teams in football are almost exclusively black. The same can be said of basketball. While almost all the teams are made up of all white players in baseball. Could it just be that football and basketball are the type of sports where an athletic kid can excell without a long process of working at the game? While baseball no matter how athletic you are takes alot longer to achieve success especially against kids that work at it all the time. A 5'9 150 kid that runs a 5.2 40 can be an outstanding baseball player. The same kid is going to have a hard time finding a posistion to play on the football field isn't he. A 6'2 200 kid that runs a 4.5 40 might not be able to catch or throw but he can go out on the football field and be outstanding with very little experience in the sport. Personally I really dont care how many blacks or whites are playing. As long as the ones that want to play have an opportunity to compete thats all I care about. There is no conspiracy against anyone be they black or white. The bottom line is kids gravitate to the sport that they can excell in and have success in. Baseball is not an instant gratification sport. Football and basketball are. I can walk down the hallways and see a 6-2 230 lb kid and say "Hey why dont you come out for football". If he is a physical kid that wants to hit he can step on the field instantly with very little coaching and make an impact. Now can the same kid that has never played baseball do the same? No for obvious reasons. Its takes time to learn how to catch , throw properly and of course hit a baseball. Demographics play a huge part in this. Some people try to make this out to be a situation where kids are getting denied the right to play baseball. I dont believe that for one minute. Kids will play what they want to play.
Tack on to what deldad is saying the increasing intolerance at the high school level for a student athlete to be a multi-sport participant. Go ask a hs football coach whether his starting whatever should be at his high school baseball game, or taking part in spring football practice, and see what his answer will be. Then figure in the football/baseball inequity in scholarships, and see what happens. In Florida, the only African-American baseball players are usually moonlighting from their real job - being a full-scholarship football player. A perfect example of this is Gavin Dickey, a highly recruited quarterback for the University of Florida, who has never been given the chance to complete for the starting QB spot with UF because he "wastes" his tme playing LF for the Gator baseball team.
quote:Could it just be that football and basketball are the type of sports where an athletic kid can excell without a long process of working at the game?
...because black kids won't work to be good? I guess you haven't been to football or basketball practice in forever. I guess you've never been to any under 100 pound Pop Warner football game or any YMCA league basketball games for 8 year olds. I drive by a football field with mostly black kids under 13, playing 6 games at the same time on six fields, all day saturday. Don't tell me they just get to high school, show up and star, after never playing. That is a myth.
quote:If he is a physical kid that wants to hit he can step on the field instantly with very little coaching and make an impact.
Sounds like an easy game, but it's not. I completely disagree. Learning blocking schemes of complex offenses takes years of hard work and good coaching, not days.
Very weird comment for a high school coach to make, IMO. Walk down to football practice today and then tell me those guys are not working hard or being coached.
TR was just saying on another thread how different areas of the country have very different perspectives.
Catfish, that was a well expressed post, and I have no doubt of its validity, coming from you.
My son played on a JuCo team in North Florida that was a picture of diversity --- for the two years he was there the team was pretty much 1/3 each black, white, & hispanic. The scouts turned up for a variety of players, but primarily for the black players, telling Coach that their color was an advantage because they were looking for black prospects.
The black DFE's those two years all had contracts prior to the next draft, while we had white and hispanic DFE's who not only were not signed, but were not drafted again the next year. Were the black players obviously better than those not re-rafted? Some were; some weren't.
Right now I'm trying to think of a quality black player we've known who hasn't been drafted or isn't currently playing D1, and I can't. Granted, there isn't a crowd to filter through.
Of course this is a small sample size, and has more to do with the draft than playing college ball. But MLB, in my limited experience, has been looking to promote black ballplayers.
My son has been coached by 5 retired major league ballplayers; 3 white and two black.
And I fully agree with you, Catfish. Given the situation as it is, it behooves the black professional ballplayers (retired or not) to invest in continuing the presence of young black players in the game.
A dear friend told me way too many years ago about minorities who made it (although we were talking about women at the time) --- there are three kinds: the kind who made it and helped others up the ladder, the kind who made it and left the ladder there, and the kind who made it and burned the ladder. Baseball needs more of the first variety.
Catfish, that was a well expressed post, and I have no doubt of its validity, coming from you.
My son played on a JuCo team in North Florida that was a picture of diversity --- for the two years he was there the team was pretty much 1/3 each black, white, & hispanic. The scouts turned up for a variety of players, but primarily for the black players, telling Coach that their color was an advantage because they were looking for black prospects.
The black DFE's those two years all had contracts prior to the next draft, while we had white and hispanic DFE's who not only were not signed, but were not drafted again the next year. Were the black players obviously better than those not re-rafted? Some were; some weren't.
Right now I'm trying to think of a quality black player we've known who hasn't been drafted or isn't currently playing D1, and I can't. Granted, there isn't a crowd to filter through.
Of course this is a small sample size, and has more to do with the draft than playing college ball. But MLB, in my limited experience, has been looking to promote black ballplayers.
My son has been coached by 5 retired major league ballplayers; 3 white and two black.
And I fully agree with you, Catfish. Given the situation as it is, it behooves the black professional ballplayers (retired or not) to invest in continuing the presence of young black players in the game.
A dear friend told me way too many years ago about minorities who made it (although we were talking about women at the time) --- there are three kinds: the kind who made it and helped others up the ladder, the kind who made it and left the ladder there, and the kind who made it and burned the ladder. Baseball needs more of the first variety.
I guess we can muse on this issue for a long time but my question is this..Why is it a problem if blacks appear to be under-represented in baseball? I think I can make an argument that they are not. Let's start with Alcorn State 20 Blacks 5 Whites.
dad4boys...I would like to be able to respond to your post. So..your point is what? Please expound.
Orlando, Dado4, good points.
Coach May, we will have to respectfully agree to disagree on this issue, which is also okay.
Orlando, Dado4, good points.
Coach May, we will have to respectfully agree to disagree on this issue, which is also okay.
It is ironic IMO - that when the topic is "How much do you spend on your player" - we get a ton of responses - and the detailed list of expenses from each poster (Including myself) - is pretty high.
Then - when it is suggested that the cost of participating in higher level youth baseball has escalated dramatically - with expected results - people deny that baseball is expensive.
Again - I wont speak for any areas other than the two I have lived in - but it seems pretty darn expensive to me. In absolute terms and relative to basketball and football.
Alot of folks dont have $5,000 year to spend on lessons - travel teams - bats - spikes - gloves - underarmour etc...
The lower particpation rate of African Americans in baseball may have many causes - but the rising cost of youth baseball sure as heck isnt helping improve the situation IMO.
Then - when it is suggested that the cost of participating in higher level youth baseball has escalated dramatically - with expected results - people deny that baseball is expensive.
Again - I wont speak for any areas other than the two I have lived in - but it seems pretty darn expensive to me. In absolute terms and relative to basketball and football.
Alot of folks dont have $5,000 year to spend on lessons - travel teams - bats - spikes - gloves - underarmour etc...
The lower particpation rate of African Americans in baseball may have many causes - but the rising cost of youth baseball sure as heck isnt helping improve the situation IMO.
itsinthegame:
The $$$ affects the lower income players from every ethnic background.
The $$$ affects the lower income players from every ethnic background.
Catfish- I lived in Atlanta for nearly 20 years and I still return 5-6 times a year. I agree with the way you described Atlanta, but I must say it is a unique city and not one found in most places in regards to AA's involvement with youth baseball.
As you travel to cities outside of Atlanta, you could be Stevie Wonder and see there are very, very few black HS baseball players.
You have made some very intelligent observations in your post.
Boy, just when I thought this dead horse had been beaten to oblivion...Catfish arrived with another perspective
As you travel to cities outside of Atlanta, you could be Stevie Wonder and see there are very, very few black HS baseball players.
You have made some very intelligent observations in your post.
Boy, just when I thought this dead horse had been beaten to oblivion...Catfish arrived with another perspective
Not in the same proportion in this country.
Dad4boys:
Alcon is after all, an historically black school. My son played this summer with a short stop from Alcorn State. He has to buy his own cleats and gloves, almost unheard of at that level. He marveled at the condition of the fields he got to play on this summer, a few high school fields and minor league fields, nothing special by most standards.
quote:I think I can make an argument that they are not. Let's start with Alcorn State 20 Blacks 5 Whites.
Alcon is after all, an historically black school. My son played this summer with a short stop from Alcorn State. He has to buy his own cleats and gloves, almost unheard of at that level. He marveled at the condition of the fields he got to play on this summer, a few high school fields and minor league fields, nothing special by most standards.
My point is this, for some reason someone has decided to make an issue where no issue should exist. Blacks are not excluded from any sport and simply chose to play other sports. Examples: Bo Jackson and Brian Jordan. Both played professional Football and Baseball. My point of Alcorn State is Blacks are playing baseball in college and the good ones who choose to are moving into the professional ranks. There is not an infinite number of black males in the proper age range with the proper athletic skills to fill all professional sports rosters with what ever number would make everybody happy. Blacks make up 12.9% of the U.S. population. Not all blacks are 1. Male or 2. Athletically inclined. To argue all blacks who are not female are athletically inclined is not only racist but ridiculous.
One solution is to reduce the number of professional baseball teams that way you could boost the percentage of blacks.
Another solution is to form all black leagues..wait we tried that before. Sorry
One solution is to reduce the number of professional baseball teams that way you could boost the percentage of blacks.
Another solution is to form all black leagues..wait we tried that before. Sorry
Braves,
You are correct 51% of all blacks live in large cities. You would have a problem finding black hs baseball players out side of the big cities.
You are correct 51% of all blacks live in large cities. You would have a problem finding black hs baseball players out side of the big cities.
North Alabama's largest high school (6a) has
14 black basketball players and 1 white
1 black baseball player and 19 whites
football starters are 12 black and 10 white.
I recommend we force 4 black basketball players and 5 black football players to move to the baseball team.
14 black basketball players and 1 white
1 black baseball player and 19 whites
football starters are 12 black and 10 white.
I recommend we force 4 black basketball players and 5 black football players to move to the baseball team.
dad4boys...I don't think anyone has said that Blacks are excluded completely from baseball, certainly not me. I think we were trying to come up with the reasons and possibly some solutions to why their numbers are dwindling and I simply posted my thoughts.
By the way, have you seen the baseball players at many of the HBCU's. I think you would be surprised at the diversity.
To be honest, you can't put a number or a percentage on it with which everyone will agree. That is not my point. However, I believe that many baseball people with an ounce of common decency and humanity will agree that something is wrong with the numbers. Someone other than myself thinks that the subject is important and I didn't start this thread. Look at the number of posts and views for this thread. I had decided that I was not going to post my thoughts in this thread because the same things I said here today, I said here last year. But a fellow poster e-mailed me and encouraged me to post my thoughts.
It's like looking at a picture and saying that something is wrong with that picture, but you don't know what it is. I look at college teams and pro teams and I look around me at all the good young Black players and say to myself, in America, there ought to be more Black baseball players. I just want to be a part of finding a way to stem the tide of Black players who are leaving baseball. Nothing more, nothing less.
By the way, have you seen the baseball players at many of the HBCU's. I think you would be surprised at the diversity.
To be honest, you can't put a number or a percentage on it with which everyone will agree. That is not my point. However, I believe that many baseball people with an ounce of common decency and humanity will agree that something is wrong with the numbers. Someone other than myself thinks that the subject is important and I didn't start this thread. Look at the number of posts and views for this thread. I had decided that I was not going to post my thoughts in this thread because the same things I said here today, I said here last year. But a fellow poster e-mailed me and encouraged me to post my thoughts.
It's like looking at a picture and saying that something is wrong with that picture, but you don't know what it is. I look at college teams and pro teams and I look around me at all the good young Black players and say to myself, in America, there ought to be more Black baseball players. I just want to be a part of finding a way to stem the tide of Black players who are leaving baseball. Nothing more, nothing less.
quote:Originally posted by Catfish:
To be honest, you can't put a number or a percentage on it with which everyone will agree. That is not my point. However, I believe that many baseball people with an ounce of common decency and humanity will agree that something is wrong with the numbers.
It's like looking at a picture and saying that something is wrong with that picture, but you don't know what it is.
Agree 100%