African Americans in baseball

I believe it is a multi-layered problem. It begins with the lack of opportunities in the inner-city. Fields, cost, equipment etc. Then it continues to showcase baseball and the expense of playing in the circuit. Fall baseball and showcase interferes with football. And basketball has become a year round sport like baseball. The NCAA comes next with the scholarship rule(11.7). Football and basketball offer full scholarships. This is the greatest drawback to a more diverse draft. This is just a short list of the obstacles African Americans face when choosing baseball.

At the risk of sounding cynical, after reading Morgan's commments and that this is a matter of "great concern" to the MLB commissioner, I wondered if the NBA is similarly concerned over a lack of Euro-American kids playing basketball? Lots of great baseball players from numerous races and cultures; basketball seemingly has far less diversity, even if you account for the europeans. Interesting....

An observation that I hope is not taken the wrong way, and I think it is on the same plane as Hokieone.

Has there been a decline in white players in the college and NBA ranks?

It is not always the opportunities that that hold yougsters back, but the passion for the game. That passion cannot be had overnight, it is cultivated over generations. There are other issues but it seems like the Latin countries have not done a bad job overcoming them.

I don't think that you can force feed passion.

As a minority who grew up in a major city I can try and explain this from a person who has actually seen this problem. Baseball right now isn't cool to play in the inner-citites. Right now the majority of the kids are playing basketball. IT is the hip-hop culture right now from Mcdonalds to Scholls(gellin') Insoles. It is also easier to pick up a basketball and shoot hoops. In baseball you need a helmet, glove, cleats, a well kept field, and in the inner-city good luck finding a well kept field. Well good luck looking for a field period!!!!

Right now I currently live in a suburban community. The kid plays baseball year round because he has several fields to go to. He also knows many people that play pick up games in baseball which is very, very rare these days! I also support him in many ways from throwing Bp with him to catching and long-tossin' with him. In the inner cities their are broken homes and single parent homes. It is very tough on these kids because they are born without a father figure and their mom has to work two jobs. So guess what, they play a sport they can play by themselves and hopefully they will stay out of trouble!

It really disappoints me because there isn't a huge push in the inner cities for baseball as much as developing players in places like the Dominican and several Latino Countries.

I'm sorry but I've had my hands so full with one player over the past 21 years that I didn't take time to address that issue. Besides I think we should remember that baseball is a sport .... which in my opinion isn’t just real important in ones search for success. But since the topic is on the table we can go deeper.
Many things influence our children from the time they are born until they die. These influences point them in a general direction but not to a specific destination. They are ultimately left to choose as they please. So, in order for us to achieve a goal; say more blacks in baseball, we have to go back and modify those things that influence the general direction they are pointed. They can still choose but our goal is for them to pick baseball. Role models play a big part in influencing young athletes but a role model usually resembles the youngster and it’s hard for a young black athlete to emulate a white professional athlete. So how do you get a role model? You don’t make role models. Role models are nothing more than a product of the process I’m describing. If the process changes then baseball will be covered up with role models.
The NBA recently banned players from wearing certain attire and jewelry. Many black players feel as if this was racially motivated by whites forcing “their” culture on them. The players are probably right. I don’t like the way the NBA players dress and act but it is part of that culture. I always thought of culture as age old traditions but culture can be formed in a very short period of time. The culture many black know is not rooted in Africa but in the inner cities of America. Basketball is a big part of that culture because it fits the mood and the environment. Go to the projects and watch a basket ball game and look and listen. Baseball has made an effort to break this trend with RBI (Return Baseball to the Inner-city) but trying to modify a culture is not done with a corporate program or pulling the chains off players and putting on a tie. So how do we change the culture? WE don’t. THEY do. The ball is in their court!
Fungo

I'd agree totaly with "basballbum"

there is no problem at all letting a kid choose what is fun for him

I could walk by a park and just enjoy seeing kids play a variety of games

a PC activist however, will calculate ethnic ratios and hold a press conference

quote:

by deldad:I believe it is a multi-layered problem. It begins with the lack of opportunities in the inner-city. Fields, cost, equipment etc . . .

you'd reconsider your views after spending some time with a few Dominican guys

peace

If you listened to Joe Morgan last night, the problem is clear.

We need to provide a heck of a lot more than 11.7 scholarships to ALL players.

What poor kid/family is going to pursue baseball at the D1 level when he's going to get, on average 67% less than if he plays BBall or Football?

Travel ball is also partly responsible for taking the poor (white,black and Hispanic) kid away as well. How many poor families can afford $500.00 (or more, a lot more!)....to play.

Bottom line is that MLB would do well to subsidise D1 scholarships to the tune of about $100 million per year.....if D1 were to shrink to about 117 teams, like college football.

When is anyone going to stand up and shout for ALL AMERICANS and not just for the minorities.

why is there a double standard for minorities?

there is BET (black entertainment television)
but we can't have WET ( that just wouldn't be right)

There is a Black Miss Universe contest
where is the white Miss Universe contest (that wouldn't be PC)

I want all to be treated equal. But then again if that were the case then Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, Farrakan wouldn't have a job (that wouldn't be fair)

this is a never ending circle, and the powers that be have to keep it that way. (which isn't right!)

quote:

by s-nole: What poor kid/family is going to pursue baseball at the D1 level when he's going to get, on average 67% less than if he plays BBall or Football?

huh?? did you consider future college scholarship allocations when signing your kid up for T-ball??

quote:

by s-nole: Travel ball is also partly responsible for taking the poor (white,black and Hispanic) kid away as well. How many poor families can afford $500.00 (or more, a lot more!)....to play.

soo, if that's true how do you explain the hispanic over-representation in pro ball??


.

Bee..

People with a voice and a platform have to champion a cause to give them credibility. There is a glaring difference in all vocations in this country. But when given the grandest stage the powers that be take that opportunity to ram their cause down our throats. The biggest injustice of them all is the lack of schlorships given to baseball players (of all colors)

well tx, when that increase DOES come, I pray it's retroactive

just sent mine on to citibank


.

Bee....Huh?

What does T-ball have to do with the subject at hand? The kids I'm talking about are the big time atlhlete's that have a choice..and if your poor, the choice is easy...$0 (full ride) beats $12,500.00 (average of 67% tuition)................EVERY DAY OF THE WEEK.

The Hispanic representation is 24% or so and is due primarily to: A) The socio-economic conditions in places like the Dominican Republic and Cuba. These kids play ball morning, noon and night...and the MLB scouts are signing them for peanuts...compared to our kids.

African American kids can go to school and play other sports on a full ride...or sign a MLB contract and RECEIVE money. Simply put, the NCAA D1 teams have little or no chance of bringing these player's in to their program.

Poor kids can't afford travel ball...no matter their ethnicity or race!

Get it?

Gees...What a bunch of bs defending positions on this board.

You are what you are...what your parents encourage you to be.

I've been an Iverson fan for years (overlooking the problems that he had in high school and that Thompson overlooked when he recruited him for Georgetown)....As a basketball player.

Tell me, someone, what job is he qualified for if he didn't have professional basketball to play?

nole,
blame society & throw money at the situation -
where have I heard that before??

my point was that MOST kids & parents choose youth sports that are fun and they DO NOT have an eye on a college scholarship as you suggest

and who cares about the handfull of "bigtime HS athletes" who have the skills to play more then one college sport?? did you want a PC panel formed that would force some to choose baseball??

and poor Dominican kids playing a game on old sugar fields with handmedown & home-made equipment CAN develop baseball skills -
but you're saying poor Americans CANNOT - I'd like to hear more about that -
is it a racial thing? -
oops, should'a been - - "is it a cultural thing?"

Americans too soft??
too dumb??
too lazy??
or don't they work well in the heat?? (ala Dusty Baker)


peace

Here we go again...why does this subject keep coming up over and over again? Because it is becoming so noticeable that Afro-American players are disappearing form the baseball rosters. Is our country going back to segregating the players based upon race? I don't think it is deliberate, but it is happening due the lack of opportunities for young Afro-Americans to get a chance to play this game.

With basketball a kid can go down to a local rec with hoops and shoot for hours...by himself. With baseball you that is not so easy. Most fields don't even allow youngsters to use them without permission, pay fees, or belong to some organization that has access priveleges. The open field, for young Afro-Americans is not a realistic option.

I believe that Fungo is on the right track in his analysis of the problem. But others here are also offering opinions that have validity. Some here get real defensive about this subject out of cultural necessity.

But the facts are that Afro-Americans are not "included" in the game of baseball as a general rule. Starting at the LL level they are discouraged from participating...and that I have witnessed personally. Sat in on board meetings where that opionion was expressed by some to my amazement.

Let's not try to deny the obvious. Afro-Americans do not participate in a lot of things in this country, including baseball because there is a cultural bias against it. Is it wrong, yes, can we do something about it, yes.

Attempts are been made to change what has been a historical disgrace. I support those attempts and hope that more people of goodwill prevail. Much of what happens along those lines are created by a sense that we are missing the great athletes contributions that Afro-Americans provide the American paying public.

It was interesting to me that Joe Morgan said that based upon current structures of how baseball is managed at all levels in this country he would have never even been giving a chance to play the game because there are no programs for baseball in the urban setting that he grew up in, so he would never have had the chance to develop at all.

I would like to see this situation modified, so that the kids in the urban cities would get a chance to play this great game. But as long as cities are run by people whose main function is to find ways pay off their "friends", the kids won't have a chance.

Maybe the MLB and the MLBPA should be "required" to set up a fund for scholarships so that kids can get assistance to "pay" the fees that will allow them to play ball from LL all the way through 4-year college scholarships. Why, because IMO there is no secret why the college and university scholarships have been cut back to 11.7. By doing so the "price" for getting one just went through the roof. Only those kids that have families that can afford all the ancilliary expenses required to pay for all the individual coaching, tournaments, travel team fees ad-infinitum will have a chance to even be considered. It's not going to get better either....that's what Joe Morgan was saying, and he's right.

As for the Hispanics players from the Carribean and S. America, they are so use to their cultural circumstances that it has become for them a way of life. But here, Hispanics who are US citizens must be able to compete based upon the way things are controlled for all players in the USA.

If a group doesn't have the wherewithal to compete, eg, fields, equipment, down to the simple ability to pay the tournament fees for playing baseball it can be just to expensive for them...competing for them at the highest level is out of the question.

There are reasons for the way things are, dismissing them as not having a causal and effect based upon current conditions and circumstances of the way things are being managed is obviating the reality of what we see.

quote:

by rr: Maybe the MLB and the MLBPA should be "required" to set up a fund . . .

more of blame society & throw money at the situation -

rr, your point was very loong, but not very strong -

by your OWN observation the kids "disappearing from baseball rosters"
ARE "re-appearing on basketball rosters"





peace


cultural bias? maybe

a bias of -

some ethnic groups TO basketball

other ethnic groups TO hockey, eh

other ethnic groups TO soc-cer,

and still others TO curling

I hate getting involved in any discussions regarding race. Always afraid of saying the wrong thing!

One of the greatest things about baseball is the exceptance of everyone as a team mate. What amazing growth has been made in this area, thanks, in large part, to Jackie Robinson and many others.

What are the percentages of blacks vs white in baseball? I know among the very best kids, we see each year, there are many black players.

MLB has tried to institute programs for the inter cities (RBI). There has been some success, but not nearly enough.

It's always been my belief that baseball is a hand me down game. Parents who love baseball (all races) usually "guide" their children in that direction.

Sure there are exceptions, but I believe the above situation would include the majority of young players.

Anyway, perhaps I'll never understand all this racial stuff.

Please forgive me, but I can't understand what is wrong with a statement that talks about how fast runners are. Or how good people of a certain race might be at music, dancing, writing, cooking or anything else for that matter.

Aren;t there certain nationalities that are famous for having
great cooks, gymnasts, race car drivers, etc.

It doesn't mean everone of that nationality is a great cook. It doesn't mean other nationalities don't have great cooks.

What if I were to say... Blacks are among the greatest musicians on earth.
Is there anything wrong with that?
Could I be labeled a racist?
Could I be labeled a traitor to all white people?
Should I even care what people think based on my true belief that people are just people.
Would anyone know that I don’t care what color people are?

Sorry... I just don't get it!... Why can't people just respect one another, be polite and kind to everyone who deserves it.
Why are these issues involving "descriptions" so important and touchy?

I confess!... This is coming from an ignorant white person!

By the way, isn't that an apt description of the majority of white people.

Then again, come to think about it... doesn't it fit people of every race.

I know that no one cares about Lithuanians!

No one seems to worry about them or have "programs" for them.

My mom worked two jobs for 37 years and no one cared about her except her children and grandchildren.

No matter what the color or national origin or sexual orientation.

Get a job.

Enough of the largesse!

Ramrod

That was a very well thought response.

There has been quite a few thought provoking posts on this thread. It will take quite a few "community leaders" that not only support youth baseball, but can recruit good coaches to get this off the ground...as well as a tremendous financial support from somewhere.

In my area of Charlotte, NC, I have a dream of developing an inner city program that can represent itself so well, they could compete at Perfect Game's Jupiter Tournament. Perhaps I could convince Prepster to help me with this dream.

Help me out here in identifying the problem. Some see it one way and others see it another. So, are there a large number of inner city black kids that WANT to play baseball and can’t, or are there a lot of adult suburbanites that WANT inner-city black kids to play baseball that won’t?.....
AND...
Could it be there are more white boys in the suburbs that are denied the chance to play college basketball that inner city black kids that are denied the chance to play college baseball? If so, is that a problem? If it is a problem, who would represent the oppressed?
Fungo

Fungo:

It's been my observation over the last few years of watching travel ball that the teams we have played that are predominately afro-american are comprised of kids whose parents are middle class comfortable to wealthy. There also are a number of them that struggle, like we do some months.

One thing that can be said is you couldn't find a nicer bunch of families. Their kids have talent all over the map... no different than anyone else.

My advice to these parents is the same for any parent with aspiring ballplayers...work hard, work smart, focus, learn from the best if you can, strive to be positive, develop and cherish your confidence, and most important have fun! Being a member of the HSBBW doesn't hurt either!

I really think if anyone wants it and is dedicated to being successful then it will happen regardless of anything.

Bee, I do not understand what your statement "spend time with a few Dominicans." I have and that is a different subject. It is about making baseball a game for all. When there is no tball field and no program to learn from how are urban kids to get to love the game? It is about opportunities.
As for the NCAA, all kids would be helped by the increase in scholarships especially those of limited financial means.

BeenthereIL:

But not enough of the kugelis

Here's about 20 guys (with Home State) that we seen at our events in recent years. I think they were all first round picks except Crawford who was the first pick of the 2nd round.

All great kids and outstanding talents! I know for a fact that a few of them came out of poverty. Some came out of large inner cities, some from smaller communities. All are now fairly wealthy, or at least they should be. I'm sure I could come up with many more.

Delmon Young CA
BJ Upton VA
Carl Crawford TX
Lastings Milledge FL
Andrew McCutchen FL
Justin Upton VA
Dewan Brazelton TN
Cameron Maybin NC
CJ Henry OK
John Mayberry KS
Chris Nelson GA
Greg Golson TX
Rickie Weeks FL
Adam Jones CA
Prince Fielder FL
James Loney TX
Denard Span FL
Josh Burrus GA
Corey Smith NJ

Trust me the inner city kids are not the only ones who have difficulties playing baseball.

I live in a very tiny community. We have a baseball field (such that it is). It's in a flood zone and sits under water a big portion of the spring and into summer.

When the field is under water - the call off the games. When it's not under water a farmer brings his tractor out and mows down the weeds (grass can't handle the standing water so weeds are all we have) and they play.

Few of the kids have their own bats - the few who do bring theirs and everyone shares. A bunch of the kids don't have baseball gloves, they borrow from the other team when it's their turn in the field.

There are barely enough kids to field two teams - and that's only because they let anyone - no matter if they are 3 or 12 play on the team. No one hits off a t-ball stand, they just pitch until the kid gets a hit. Sometimes they have to move up REAL close or they would be there all day.

There are no uniforms, no one wears baseball pants or cleats.

However, I have been here 15 years now and every year the kids endure the mosquitoes and play baseball. Not because any of them expect to EVER get a scholarship - but because they like the game.


So forgive me if I don't see the social injustice others see in this situation.

Since DiMaggio how many Italians have been in the bigs---not a hell of a lot-- I am totally offended--and we are always accused of having "TIES" and we sometimes are accused of getting " a pass" in certain areas.

The way I look at it we have "Americans" and "Latinos" playing baseball--- that is a great mix and I like it--some of the American players and their parents can learn some things from the "latino" players--


Just another thought-- since MLB doesnt have a "strict dress code"ike the NBA perhaps some the black youth will now turn to baseball--and dont use the exuce of "no funds" --many programs susidize the players who need some help. If the kid wants to play he will play--the good prgrams see to it--lack of funds is a cop out

The proper number should be combination of those that are talented enough and those that have the desire to be there.

It's that simple. There is no exact number for how many of any kind of person should be in any field. Do you have the skills and do you want to be there, those are the only qualifications needed.

Baseballbum was very accurate in his post. There are factors that affect every outcome in life.

I am 50 years old, white, "plesantly plump" (not fat, dammmit), but have lost very little hair. I live in a major city with a 75+% Af-Am population. City schools' students interest in, participation in, and quality of play in baseball is just as Baseballbum said. The best basketball in the state is played in these schools, however. The best baseball is played in the suburbs where there is more money to spend on fields, equipment, instruction, etc. This is probably because those kids are primarily the children of parents who were raised when baseball was king, and thus are influenced by that fact.

If you will remember, there was a time when baseball was 100% White. Basketball too, football too. To say "We've come a long way, baby" is an understatement. We've come from ZERO to where we are today. The point that should not be lost is that everyone is now free to decide for themselves what vocation, or sport, to participate in.

To attempt to force, or complain about the lack of, a predetermined percentage on anything, including sports, ignores the fact that people may have other interests. Some say the percentage of Af-Am's in baseball is too low. No one dares to say that the percentage in basketball is too high. They would be chastised at a minimum and laughed out of town. When the numbers EXCEDE "societal representations", no one pays much attention, or at least no one says anything. I don't recall hearing much griping about the lack of White Corner Backs in "Big Time" college or professional football. Nobody is clammoring about the miniscule Af-Am numbers in hockey, golf, or tennis on the college/professional scales. Why?

The statements by the AF coach were not necessarily inaccurate, they were simply not PC. The fact that there are fewer Af-Am's playing baseball these days as opposed to the last couple of decades is not surprising, due to a number of factors, including those mentioned by Baseballbum and others, such as the influx of Hispanic/Latin players. There was a time when baseball was the only game in town, "America's Pastime" I believe it was called. Now, there are a number of alternative interests...for everybody.


I hope I haven't rambled too much.

Beenthere

FYI: Before his high school issues, Iverson was reportedly also an amazing high school quarterback. In these parts, mentioned in that sport in the same breath with Aaron Brooks, Ronald Curry and Michael Vick.

Right now, we don't have a lot of black baseball players. Don't have a lot of black hockey players, either. And, after a lot of years and a lot of garbage, the world has discovered black people can indeed play with distinction at the quarterback position.

Part of cultural. Part is economic. Part is societal. And, if you take a longer view, part of it is cyclical.

I'm going by memory here, but shortly (a relative term) after Jackie Robinson broke the color barrier and the Negro Leagues died, black interest in baseball waned (into the early 60s). The interest went back up over a roughly 20-year span (into the early 80s), but has since cycled down to something of a nadir today.

I'm my memory is correct, that would mean we're due to see a slow climb starting soon.

jaxnbulldog:

Had 360 degree, full range, Ramble Detector on at max. sniff and your post didn't trip it... no rambling detected...just a flat out good post.

jaxnbulldog:

The bold portion of your post would put a smile on Milton Freidman's face (he of Free to Choose fame).

quote:

Originally posted by Fungo:
AND...
Could it be there are more white boys in the suburbs that are denied the chance to play college basketball that inner city black kids that are denied the chance to play college baseball?
Fungo

No

Hey--what about HOCKEY AND NASCAR!! My non-black child could not play or participate in either of those elite, expensive sports--------wheres my funding?
I also notice a shortage of ITALIAN, ASIAN, GREEK, NORWEGIAN, SWEDE, GERMAN, FRENCH, ..............players in MLB......we need to do something---quick!

I went to several Texas Ranger games this season. I could count on one hand how many African American fans were sitting in the stands. In the section I was sitting in $6.00 cheap seats there were NONE.

The interest just isn't there! Why force the black population to do what they are not interested in.

The opportunity is there for all americans, if they have the interest and desire.

txdad06,

I agree with you!!!

'nuff said!

txda06

Go to a Yankee or Met game in NY and it is the other way around--there is interest in this region

Even the high cost of Knick seats does not seem to stop the black fan from attending with Spike Lee on the court as their leader

Perhaps it is because NYC is perhaps one of the greatest sport cities in the country--the fans are true sports fans

Not that I care, but as far as what the AF coach had to say.....I feel like you should be allowed to say what you want, and on the other hand you don't have to like what he said....I feel like he is a quality person, but what he said should be classified as racist. Saying you need more minority recievers because you need faster players.....would be like saying you need more white lineman because you need smarter players. One statement is no worse than the other.

Very interesting topic and a lot of valid points brought up here. I agree with the fact that young black athletes will choose to play what interests them at whatever stage they begin to compete in sports, I don't think they really care too much about scholarships when they are 6,7, and 8- years old. I highly doubt if you go up to a young black kid playing a youth league baseball game and tell him that there are only 11.7 scholarships for college baseball that he will drop his glove and bat and run and pick up a basketball. JMO.
Recently, my college baseball team held a camp for inner-city kids in Knoxville, many showed up anxious to learn and many played Pop Warner and youth basketball as well. I think whatever sport they choose to pursue will be out of enjoyment, not because of the invisible barriers set up to keep them out of baseball.

d8

Do you feel it would be a racist statement if it was made by an Afro-American?

The hardest thing for folks to acknowledge is that there are racists among the Afro-Americans, the Whites, the Latinos and any other segement of society.

Racism is not a one way street, and only when we come to terms with that will be find a way to overcome it.