Agressive or patient hitter?

An aggressive hitter with a good eye works for me.  Looking for something to drive before two strikes, looking to put the ball in to play with two strikes.  Your more "natural" hitters are able to adapt to this type of flexibility...some are all or none type.  My oldest has a great eye, and I could not get him to be aggressive early for anything.  I think he prefers to hit with twos strikes...maybe it's just to drive me crazy...lol

My kid's like that, and it's driven me crazy in the past. Until HS he never played on a team that he didn't lead  in walks.  Reminds me of Marco Scuttaro -- there seems to be no 0-0 pitch that is good enough for him. Facing HS Varsity pitching as a Frosh last fall seemed to have finally gotten him to think about changing his approach. He realized that if he didn't take a hack at a FB in the zone on a 0-0 count, he might never see another one.

Does he have RBI mentality?

Bob

Kids wanting to play at the next level s/b aggressive because they can't learn to hit if they keep the bat on their shoulder. I don't think the pitcher's control s/b a decisive factor in the batter's approach and a good hitter at the amatuer level should not be concerned about getting behind in the count.   Sure you don't want them to swing at a terrible pitch, but even worse you don't want them to watch the first pitch fastball pass uncontested into the catcher's mitt. 

My son only took pitches in LL as a 10 year old....only because the coach told him to.  If your kid's afraid to swing because he'll be yelled at, his career is probebely over.  

I would suggest taking your son to watch some good college hitters, they are often swinging on the first pitch, talk about how those players got to that level.  Its attitude and talent.

You can't walk off the island.

My son went from batting 9th soph year ((only soph starter) of high school and leading off for years of travel to batting third junior year. The first few games he heard a lot of, "Dammit! We don't need a walk. We need an RBI." He started hacking away and becoming a better hitter. He stopped taking so many 2-0 and 3-1 pipe pitches looking for a walk. He still walked a lot getting pitched around. The summer after soph year his travel/showcase coach started harassing him he's not going to walk his way to college ball. Hack away.

In the best of both worlds the amount of "patience or aggressiveness" is dependent on the situation of the game, and even more so what the count is.  I always used to tell my players that their game plan changes on every pitch...also to look at pitcher tendencies.  Most HS pitchers are going to try to get ahead early in the count, they are afraid getting behind, so many throw the best pitch to hit on the first pitch.

I want an aggressive hitters mentality with hitter's counts:  3-0, 3-1, 2-0, and 2-1...each of these counts, you should be looking to be aggressive in a specific hitting zone.  It used to drive me nuts when a player would swing 3-0 (if he had green light), or 3-1, and was terribly late on the pitch.  During those counts, you should be expecting fastball, and the swing should be aggressive.

For the most part, most average to slightly above average hitters are either always aggressive, or always patient.  My experience is the "great" hitters are both depending on the count, who is pitching, etc....

My preference is aggressive, especially up to the HS level...walks won't get you to the next level, and most AB's you will see at least one good pitch to swing at before you are walked.  I would sacrifice the occasional swinging at a "not ideal" pitch and giving an out.

I read that your son is a 2016, so my post is with that in mind...

Aggressive is good.  Make sure he has mechanics that allow him to be a good FB hitter so he has confidence that NO ONE can throw it by him.  Have him learn pitch recognition.  He should develop a clear understanding of his best hitting zone, a clear picture of the zone he should attack.  Help him understand pitching, which pitches are likely to be thrown and what location based on count.  Have him develop a sound two-strike approach.  As he learns these things, his aggression will become more and more productive.   

Start with aggressiveness and, if he gets good enough, patience will be forced upon him.

Dad,

As this thread is already starting to reflect, there is no one way. By the time someone gets to college or Milb, I think everyone will agree, though, that they better be a really good hitter.

 One factor I think is important to know is that as hitters move up to HS and then college, even though the quality of the pitching and pitches does get distinctly better, scouting reports, advance information, and learning better to adjust make  big differences.

We start with the premise that  you have to be able to hit.

Hitting comes from mechanics, repetition and confidence. Confidence comes in part from feeling you have command of that pitch and that AB.

In HS, I would agree your son needs to be a fundamentally good hitter with solid mechanics

While CollegeParent is correct that some college guys are 1st pitch hitters, that often times will come from advance scouting reports on the pitcher(pitching coach and philosophy?), and his tendencies and approach. If a lead-off guy is swinging at the first pitch of the game, more often than not he is confident because he has seen that pitcher before, has considerable scouting report information and is confident in both location and pitch selection.

For every situation like that in college, I think there are as many where the object is to see as many pitches as possible early in the game and be patient within the approach so other hitters learn from the AB and the hitter learns for his next AB.

Hitters can learn to be very good with 2 strikes if they learn and adjust within the AB and from AB to AB.  Working an AB so the hitter has seen every pitch and especially the best pitch, by that point, gives an advantage to a hitter.  Being in a 2 strike situation where you have not seen all the pitches and especially the best pitch leaves a hitter vulnerable.

Part of this is also within the context of the team, at the college level and above. Last weekend I watched a game where there may have been 35 or so scouts to watch a pitcher who is projected for the first round in June.  He  cruises 93-95 and touches 98-100. The approach against him was clearly to drive up his pitch count.  By the 4th inning, he was close to 100 pitches, and out of the game. That ended up with a W for the hitting approach.

Part of this also involves command of the strike zone. While there is plenty about him to criticize, Barry Bonds might be the greatest of all time in showing patience, based on strike zone command, while also being aggressive. He would rarely go out of the strike zone and for more than a few years he might only see one strike in an AB. Between an unbelievable confidence(arrogance?), patience and aggressiveness, Bonds would take a walk if he did not get his pitch, but he would be incredibly aggressive on that one pitch in an AB where he controlled the pitch.

Not many are Bonds or close to him. Currently, one could compare Buster Posey, Marco Scutaro and Pablo Sandoval and see 3 completely different approaches which work.

As my reference to those 3 Giants will hopefully illustrate, when players get to college, I am not sure really good hitters necessarily have the same approach from AB to AB. Additionally, I am pretty sure a 2 hole hitter, for instance, might have a different approach than a 3- 4 and 5 hole hitter on a good hitting team.  No matter what their approach, good hitters  are constantly adjusting, but they are such good hitters they know they can hit in any situation.

Viewed from a different perspective, the better the pitching, the more they are in control if they know the hitter is  one dimensional and does not adjust within an AB or from AB to AB.

If your son is in HS or entering, I would tend to focus more on mechanics, repetition and confidence. As he learns more about adjustments and controlling pitch counts and AB's, the issues between patient and aggressive can evolve.  With that said, no matter what the count for a HS hitter, when he gets his pitch, he has to be aggressive unless the coaching call is for something different.

Well put infielddad. The only thing I would add would be what the situation is. I have seen my son rip first pitch fastballs this year only to take two down the shoot on successive pitches later in the game. When I asked him about it he told me " the two guys in front of me made outs first pitch swinging and my pitcher needed some rest. And besides I'm not afraid of hitting with two strikes, I love it"

I think you have a much better chance at extending your pitchers rest by not taking the second fastball down the shoot.  Its great that your son is not afraid of hitting with two strikes however letting yourself get down 0-2, if your against a decent pitcher, wont extend the pitchers rest as much as ripping the fastball like he did early in the game.

deuces, it sounds to me like the hitter knew exactly what he was doing, in a game situation.  As omm and I both posted, sometimes a game situation will dictate all or a part of the AB. In the situation omm described, his son's team had only seen 2 pitches, had 2 outs, and needed him to see extra pitches to help their pitcher.

BTW, he didn't say what happened after his son took 2 down the shoot to help his team's pitcher. 

I realize that and I am all for taking a pitch to extend some rest however I think odds would say you have a better chance at extending his rest by not automatically going down 0-2  (he did say right down the shoot) I assume this means taking all the way.  A hit gives your pitcher a lot more rest than seeing a few more pitches.  I don't care how good a hitter you are, against good pitching your chances of getting a hit just went way down by looking at that second one down the shoot and going to 0-2.  Maybe i'm wrong.

Be aggressive early in the count and rip a fastball off the wall, The pitcher will get all kinds of rest watching his squad circle the bases!

Interesting  how the guys in the stands bat are batting 1,000 and the kid who sounds like a very good college  hitter at a top program in Florida does not realize how easy it is to just be aggressive early and   "rip a fastball off the wall."

Having watched very good college hitters all over the Country for  nearly 20 years, my sense is very good college hitters pop up, fly out, line out and ground out more than 1/2 the time. I would venture to say they would do one of those  more often than crushing that fastball off the wall, especially if it might be down the shoot but at 90mph with a bit of movement.  I also don't anticipate omm's son is helpless at the plate 0-2. 

Funny game this baseball.

"True Story"

In my first years with USA Baseball I was invited to the International event in Ohio.

A friend of mine Marshall Brant was playing for the Columbus AAA team and visited the game with the Rochester team.

Already famous was Cal Ripken and I watched him at his 1st AB. The pitcher threw a slider on the outside corner "STRIKE ONE", then a fast ball on the inside corner "STRIKE TWO" and repeated the 1st pitch for "Strike three". He took all three pitches.

I am thinking, Cal is not as good as advertised.

The second AB he "handcuffs" the RF with a line drive on the slider. The 3rd AB he hit the inside pitch over the LF wall. and the 4th AB he singles thru the middle.

He was gathering information.

Question: "what is my role as a hitter"

Bob

Aggressive with a plan.  IOWs, good hitters go to the plate knowing how they are being pitched, the history of the team that they are playing (how this program has pitched them in the past) and discipline within the strike zone.  So, you are looking for a pitch middle in or middle out.  You are looking for a type of pitch and mostly a fastball.  You are assessing the situation and what is being asked of you as a hitter.  For example, hit behind the runner. 

IMO, great hitters are not afraid to hit with 2 strikes.  So, they can work their plan. 

As a coach, it kills me to see a hitter take a FB in an RBI situation.  It also kills me to see a passive "take."  I want my hitters thinking hit hit hit no instead of no no no hit. 

 There are no good coaches standing around saying "Boy I wish I had a couple of passive ball players"

Look to drive the ball in fastball counts

If the pitcher is throwing strikes look to hit not walk

Put the pressure on the defense

If your talking HS here I assume you are, fielding percentages are much lower than the MLB          When our team get's their swings in I like their chances

And finally your odds go up of getting a hit when you lift it off your shoulder

After 20 years you should know some of this!

For those inquiring minds line drive single to center. I am only using him as an example in this situation as I rarely talk about him. But with a slash line of .482/.571/.565 I think he knows what he is doing. The point being that like Coach said good hitters are not afraid of 2 strikes, they cant be. I was making the point of aggressive vs passive as was the point of the post and in response to infieldads excellent observations.

omm's son is a college hitter and the comment was made in that context.

I don't know why you would "assume HS" when I said I have watched college baseball all over the Country for 20 years and omm's son is a college hitter. Since you got the 20 years part, I assume you got the other part.

My earlier post tried to make clear how I would view some differences in approach between HS and college.

No one said anything about coaches wanting  "a couple of passive ball players" and we both know and everyone reading this thread will probably know that comment does not seem to belong.

As an FYI, my response was to the OP, Everyday Dad.  I've read this thread again and am confused as to how some the dialogue has changed between members and posts.  I need to brush up on my reading comprehension again. 

Doc - I'm with infielddad. I hop you read patient charts more carefully than you apparently read this reply.

 I hop I do too,

I never anticipated omm's son was helpless at the plate 0-2 I'm sure he is an outstanding hitter.  My point was never about one hitter vs another.  It was only about is taking a 0-1 pitch "right down the shoot" worth the 30 seconds extra rest you give your pitcher?  lets look at the mlb hitter http://www.theoleballgame.com/...verage-analysis.html

I did not compile these stats, and cannot vouch for their accuracy, however I think for sake of argument we can all agree that averages go down when you are in an 0-2 count vs a 0-1.

The only batter I would be ok with taking 0-1 fastball down the shoot to give a pitcher an extra 30 seconds of rest would be the pitcher himself and only if he cant hit anyway.

It was not my intention to offend omm or question his sons ability.  I was only talking philosophy.  

No offense taken. I was just trying to point out that there are times to be aggressive and  times to be lets say passive aggressive. And while one would think taking two down the middle would not make a difference in a pitchers rest it does let them catch their  breath so to speak. It is in the whole attitude of that at bat, slow to get to the plate, more time in between pitches. Those 30 seconds add up.

I don't know how the conversation got sidetracked with that issue anyway. If you want to give the pitcher a little time, there are better ways to do it than giving away a strike on a hittable pitch. Tie your shows. Get some dirt out of your eye.  Call time and go ask the third base coach how his day has been going so far.

Conditioning on his off day's is becoming popular, but taking strikes on purpose is a hard pill for me to swallow. Most pitchers are trying to get ahead in the count, so I would counter that with trying to hit a fastball in any fastball counts.

Count      Batting Average  

0-2          118

1-2          151

2-2          169

0-0          186

3-2          192

0-1          199

3-0          267

1-1          269

2-1          290

3-1          329

2-0          342

1-0          386

Once a pitcher get's ahead he has the advantage of expanding the zone, and when a hitter gets behind in a count, now he has to expand his zone. Now its harder to hit the ball with the sweet spot, and resulting in easy outs.

Is he pitching to a hitter who has one RBI in each 6 times at bat?

Bob

Consultant pointed out earlier he watched Cal Ripken give up an AB, in order to accomplish his goal in that AB, for later AB's. omm merely pointed out what his son did in a certain situation.  No one argues with the MLB information on hitting 0-2.

Different perspectives exist in baseball. For us to place a proper perspective on my post which The Doctor didn't like, I guess we would need to see the stats on college and MLB guys ripping that fastball off the wall as contrasted with popping it up, grounding out, flying out, lining out, etc.

Of course none of this matters in terms of the OP question on aggressive vs. patient, which Consultant hit out of the park with his post about Ripken.

What a professional MLB player did one time in one game would not be what most would want to teach, If that was the case we would all stand there and point to the bleachers and call our next shot, (remember that was kinda kool)

 Hitting a baseball is hard enough without asking a hitter to get into a disadvantage count. A pitcher would like to keep the batter in a defensive count instead of a offensive count, by all means don't send the dugout to the plate to take strikes down the middle, and play right into the defense!

Have you read this entire thread or do you want to keep taking the singular issue and situation omm noted and keep beating it to a pulp?

I went back through the thread. I don't see anyone advocating an approach which says send your "dugout" to the plate and tell them to take 2 right down the middle. I guess you have to  completely get off the point to make yours??

Perhaps jp24 got it right. You need to fully read your charts before you start posting.

When someone posts that the answer to this OP's questions are to send the dugout to the plate and take 2 down the middle, you will already have answered. Until then, these posts of yours don't seem to be very helpful for the  discussion topic.

Depends on the  situation.  If the pitcher is having a tough time throwing strikes, I am a very patient hitter.  Other wise, I am aggressive looking for a ball that I can hit hard.

So, if I understand this correctly, lefthookdad, you prefer an aggressive hitter who is patient?

Nope, I said aggressive with a good eye.  An aggressive hitter, speaking of a batter who is a good overall hitter, doesn't need a grooved, right down the middle pitch to do some damage.  It also doesn't mean they have to swing at any/everything early in the count.  In general, HS pitchers are throwing first pitch fastballs to try and get ahead in the count, why let that pitch go?  Why teach kids to take a hittable pitch?   As you often hear from the stands "swing the bat, I paid good money for that thing, use it!"....lol

I think what we are dealing with here is the logical fallacy of "false alternative."

A hitter does not choose between patience and aggressiveness. I think a good hitter is both. Patient in knowing which pitches can be driven, and waiting for those pitches. Obviously the pitch you should swing at will vary by situation and count. 

Then be aggressive on those pitches you are looking for. 

Speaking in huge generalities, I think it will depend on the approach that the team (coach) wants. Better hitters probably are encouraged/allowed to be aggressive. Weaker hitters are expected to look for a pitch they know they can drive, or simply look for the walk.But in the end, it comes down to the player, pitcher, and situation. As so many others have noted.

Originally Posted by oldmanmoses:

…The point being that like Coach said good hitters are not afraid of 2 strikes, they cant be….

Do you measure how hitters do with 2 strikes? If so, how do you do that? The reason I ask is, I currently only look at how hitters do in 0-2 counts, not in all 2 strike counts and I think it might be interesting to look at it that way.

Thanks for the replies! Seems most lean to a continued agressive approach.

For the record, everyday kid is a 2016 hs grad.

Always been agressive although mentioned after a couple at bats, that he went after a bad pitch.

Per consultants reply. Watched a pre-season game with the Pirates.

Not sure of the lefty who led off.

Guy watched 5 meatballs (Lucky the ump didn't ring him up on the 3rd or 4th pitch) go by without swinging the bat and was a backward k.

Made me think he did it on purpose. I was shocked.

As coach said, certainly scouting info will be key going forward.

That being said, as many mentioned, stay agressive early in the count.

 Yes your correct the aggressive approach is the most popular among coaches, I once had a old coach tell me to stay aggressive, and if I got to far out there he would pull me back.

Son's club organization has an MLB scout who coaches higher level team and circulates across the older teams. Something he has told guys during games more than a few times is basically "I've never had another scout or recruiter ask me 'can so and so work counts, bunt, and take walks'... They only ask me 'who can rake'." Of course game situation and spot in the order might dictate different approach at times, but for guys trying to get noticed... Nobody gets recruited for useful OBP, they want hitters. Just like they don't recruit crafty effective RHPs, they want power arms.