ALCS - Umpire chokes

I disagree. I think the ball hit the ground. On the slow mo replay you see the ball bounce up in the catchers glove.

I like Joe Buck but he's wrong. The ball bounced into the web of the glove.

Very difficult to see for certain but the evidence shows the ball bounce into the glove. The question is....is there webbing under the ball? From the position of the glove the answer is no.

Good call by the umpire. But he's lucky.

Ump blew it. He gave the out signal after the swing, and as the catcher was leaving the home plate area. Umpire allowed himself to be influenced by the batter's action and did not have any conviction in his original call.

The pumping of the fist indicates strike three but not an out. All he had to do was tag the runner. We have all seen this scenario Im sure several times. Third strike ball in the dirt. Runner unsure if it hit the ground so he runs. Catcher unsure as well so he just throws to first or tags the runner. No one turns to look at the umpire and waits to see what the call is going to be. If you wait to see and the guy runs what if your wrong? If you wait to run your toast for sure. JUST TAG THE RUNNER. I hate to see a game decided like this but it is part of the game. I much rather would have liked to see extra innings. I give credit to the batter for running and finding a way to reach base. The series will continue and the best team will win it whoever that is.

From a coaching standpoint, Coach May, you hit the nail on the head.

Absolutely no reason to not tag the runner in that circumstance REGARDLESS if you caught the ball in the air or if it bounced into your glove. The runner could've easily been tagged as he was in his swing follow through when the catcher rolled the ball.

Why wait for a decision. Tag him no matter how you caught it and we're in extra innings.

Coach May/Linear:

Nice posts. I was listening to the Sox's radio team while watching the TV so I didn't hear Joe Buck's comments. It sounds like he contributed to the confusion.

dbg_fan,

It’s a shame that you don’t have the post game shows, radio and TV, that are available to us in the Windy.

Good call by the ump. Coach May has it correct. AJ never heard that “out” call, the ump never called him out confirmed by the post interview. The ump only “punched” AJ for the strike, not the out. Great base running. Hope all the young ballplayers picked up on this. Sophomoric error on the part of Paul for not putting the tag on AJ. It should be automatic… After seeing and listening to all the fact the umps got this one correct. They handled it like pros with class.

Give it to Buehrle!!!! This play should not shadow his performance.

Great baseball! GO SOX

Smokey:

Another great summation!

GO WHITE SOX!!!

Bottom line--if the Halos scores more than one run in the innings prior this call means nothing.

As was said the Angels did not play well enough to win regardless of the call

AJ sold it like a mother. The replay showed the ball never touched the ground but bounced off the inside bottom of the mitt. The Sox swiped one.

after the ump pumps his fist,indicating a sstrike. THEN sees the ball is dropped , is he supposed to do anything, like make a safe call?

quote:

Wow - bad call by ump costs LA the game. What a shame.

How did it "cost...LA the game" ?

The score was tied and LA was doing nothing against Buerhle.

If the catcher caught the ball "glove up" instead of "glove down"...a FUNDAMENTAL catching rule, there would be no controversy.

Go White Sox!

BeenthereIL:

Nicely stated...especially the 'Go White Sox!'.

quote:

Didnt he strike out anyway? When you have to start hoping for calls like that to give you a chance to win..... what else can you say?

This quote was from the Cano thread.
Everyone sees what they want to see.
Ball was caught cleanly.
PU wrung him up.
Doug Eddings has made history.

The replay shows the ball going up. How is that caught cleanly.

Get your catchers mit out. Turn it to the backhand. Tell me....what part of the glove is the ball touching as it bounces up?

quote:

Tell me....what part of the glove is the ball touching as it bounces up?

The ball touches the web not the ground. The glove is between the ball and dirt.

If the catcher reaches two feet and tags AJ, the inning ends.

Anybody see this on HDTV? ESPN personalities who have seen on HDTV say the ball never hit the ground.

FWIW, I agree that the LA catcher should have tagged the runner to eliminate doubt. You see this happen all the time in the regular season.

there was "enhanced zoomed video" this morning on fox that very clearly showed

1) the ball was caught

2) ump turning to his right, extending and pumping the strike at just above belt level (strike 3)

3) then turning back toward the field & raising/clenching fist about eye level (the out)

quote:

the LA catcher should have tagged the runner to eliminate doubt. You see this happens all the time in the regular season.

when you see that happen, the ball WAS in the dirt - catcher knows it - batter doesn't



.

Last night on SC they showed a series of consistent calls over the course of the game by the plate umpire: right arm extended = swing, no contact, fist pumped = strike. Those motions are still appropriate to a dropped third strike.

The very fact that we (and a whole buncha people around the country) have seen the same 200 replays (slo-mo, enhanced AND with circles and arrows) and still are not in agreement about how dirty the ball got, IMHO demonstrates that the umps were right to let the play progress.

.....unless somebody can prove that HU yelled, "Josh! For heaven's sake, don't tag him!"

I disagree with Bee's assessment of when a catcher tags. Yes, he would tag when he knows the ball hit the dirt, but he should tag on any borderline catch. His knowing the ball didn't hit the dirt and the umpire knowing it are two different things --- why assume?

1. The ball hit in the web of the glove. It bounced but there was no puff of dirt.
2. No way Paul could have known if it hit in the glove or in the dirt. He should have tagged him. Also no way the umpire knew one way or the other and his explanation afterwards made it clear he was just waiting to see what the players did.
3. The umpire made an out call, and not a strike call. You could tell from the timing. It was well after the swing and after he'd seen the catch.
4. He changed his mind when AJ ran.
5. The Angels would only have been tied and the White Sox had more pitching left so it probably didn't make a difference in the final outcome.
6. The Angels are coming home for 3 games with the series tied 1-1. I'm an Angel fan and that's good news to me.

Agreed that the catcher out of habit should have just reached out and tagged AJ.
My opinion is that the ball was caught-but would not bet my life on it.

However, that being said, there is absolutely NO DOUBT that the umpire made an
out call making everything else moot.

Lee Mazzilli was interviewed and said the same thing. When the fist is pumped after making a strike call-it means out.

Also, most umpires will say "No catch" just to clarify it for both batter and catcher. Not done.

Also, previously during game, Molina struck ou swinging, ball hit ground, ump gives strike call(right arm out horizontally), Pierszinski tags Molina and ump
pumps fist. OUT! He did NOT pump his fist before AJ tagged Molina.

Check it out.

quote:

Originally posted by Coach May:
The pumping of the fist indicates strike three but not an out. All he had to do was tag the runner. We have all seen this scenario Im sure several times. Third strike ball in the dirt. Runner unsure if it hit the ground so he runs. Catcher unsure as well so he just throws to first or tags the runner. No one turns to look at the umpire and waits to see what the call is going to be. If you wait to see and the guy runs what if your wrong? If you wait to run your toast for sure. JUST TAG THE RUNNER. I hate to see a game decided like this but it is part of the game. I much rather would have liked to see extra innings. I give credit to the batter for running and finding a way to reach base. The series will continue and the best team will win it whoever that is.

I agree 100%.

IMO The catcher should have tagged the batter with a ball that low. It would have made all this pointless if he had done that.

CaDad:

Appreciate your point of view and honesty.

BTW you,ve got a real class act in Scioscia!

I think the burden is to a large degree on the player to make the easy sell.

The hard sell would be to make it look like the ball was caught cleanly.The easy sell was to tag the batter and then go to the dugout.Most experienced catchers would do this reflexively.

Don't make the umpires job harder and expect to get a break.

I'd like to hear from PIAAUmp or Tall Ump on this one.

I thought that the fist pump, coming after the horizontal arm motion, indicated the out. Others here say that the fist pump simply indicated strike.

If that is true, then what is/was the point of the horizontal arm motion? And if the fist pump did not mean the batter was out, what motion WOULD have indicated an out?

As I saw the replay last night I thought it was very cut and dried. Regardless of if you think the ball was caught or not (and I think it was)it seemed to me the umpire called the batter out. Signalled "strike" with the horizontal arm motion, then "out" with the fist pump.

Why is that not the end of the story? Am I wrong about what the fist pump means?

Orlando - you wrote:

"right arm extended = swing, no contact, fist pumped = strike. Those motions are still appropriate to a dropped third strike."

Is that correct? If so, what is the difference between a swing/no contact and a strike? Why would the umpire use two motions for the same call? Is it true that using both of these motions is not inconsistent with a third strike not caught? And if so, what is the motion for third strike caught resulting in an out?


(BTW I am a Chicago fan. Lived there for a decade, and was close to the Veeck family.)

Keep in mind this was not a dropped third strike !!

TRHit:

That of course is correct. I didn't feel it necessary to correct Orlando when quoting him saying "dropped third strike," but I referred to it as "third strike not caught," which I think is the correct terminology.

quote:

Originally posted by Bee>:
there was "enhanced zoomed video" this morning on fox that very clearly showed

1) the ball was caught...

Simply not true. The ball changes direction. Agreed by everyone who watches the video.

Now, was there leather under the ball or not?

Tough call, however, get out your catchers mitt and try to catch a ball that bounces off the webbing. Next to impossible to make it bounce off the webbing. The wrist angle has to be different than the one displayed. The wrist would have to be under the glove instead of on top or behind.

And, with the different wrist angle it would be very difficult to catch the ball if in fact it bounced off the webbing.

Call was correct, although probably lucky.

Linear:

Nice post! When do you find the time to watch so much CSI?!

gotwood4sale,
I'll use this chance to tell my one and only Scioscia story. I was playing golf with him before the 2002 season and we didn't talk baseball at all. When we were done I thought I was saying something nice by saying "Good luck in the monster division this year." He almost got mad and said that they were going to win it. He had no doubt even before that season.

I'm not pretending that he's someone I know. He's a friend of a friend and that's the only time I've met him.

The 'swing, no contact" motion is to distinguish that it wasn't a foul tip. Then he goes on to pump his fist for the strike. His habit; maybe all umpires don't do both. Without controversy, few of us pay attention to what the umpires' individual habits are.

Yes, guys, I know it wasn't specifically a dropped third strike...I was being lazy and chose not to go through the 'may or may not have, etc' disclaimer again. Happy now ?

Orlando:

Then how DOES the umpire signal "out?"

Are you saying he would indicate "swing/no contact," then "strike," then have a third motion to indicate "out?"

I have never seen anything like that. Has always seemed to me that fist pump is signal for "out," not "strike three."

As Moc1 wrote:
"... previously during game, Molina struck out swinging, ball hit ground, ump gives strike call(right arm out horizontally), Pierszinski tags Molina and ump pumps fist. OUT! He did NOT pump his fist before AJ tagged Molina."

It makes no sense to me to claim that ump gives two redundant signs for "swing no contact" and "strike," then has no motion for "out."

Still hoping a professional umpire will clear it up for us.

Couple of points missed by seemingly everyone.

1)Scioscia should have cut the argument short when it became apparent that the call would stand. Instead he effectively froze his pitcher for about 10 minutes. Escobar who had looked invincible for 9 straight batters became vulnerable.

2)Scioscia, one of baseball's best managers, especially effective at calling pitch outs...did not. Ozuna stole while Scioscia was fuming.

In the end, a frozen (and certainly tired) Escobar hung a splitty which Crede did not miss.

Even the best can lose their cool in a pressure cooker game.

This one should go 7!

CaDad:

That '02 World Series was one of the most enjoyable for me. I hadn't even followed the Angels that year until they got deep into the playoffs.

I was totally smitten by that team...especially the little guy Eckstein. What's not to like about him? And of course Scioscia...class! It helped that I really didn't care much for the Giants.

Win or lose against the White Sox the Angels will always have my admiration and respect.

Soxnole, I don't think anyone missed your points, but are discussing more than anything the umpires actions on the third strike call.

We could also bring up the point about "grooving" an 0-2 pitch from a "professional" player. Should never happen.

Rob, I'm with you on this one. If the umpire is signalling "no foul" on the call then he should also say "no catch" as well-right?

quote:

The 'swing, no contact" motion is to distinguish that it wasn't a foul tip.

ummm, that's called a STRIKE in the rule book

if ya do it 3 time ya go sit down till your next turn

linear, you may not have seen the enhanced view they showed today - it was not the cf camera game view - you could see the seams on the ball & the laces on the glove
.

2 major problems with this play one by the ump the other by the catcher. The ump should call a strike on the pitch as indicated by a right arm extended to call the swing. The fist pump indicates an out, not a strike. If you call a strike you do not give a pump. (first mistake) THe catcher, if he did catch the ball, should immediatetly hold it up to the ump and get the call. If the ump makes no call then you make the tag or throw as the play dictates. (second mistake) In my opinion the ump had a more difficult task than the catcher on this. If the catcher simply presents the ball and makes the tag (if needed) we would not be discussing this right now.

hsballcoach,
Good post, and something to teach the kids.

Moc1...Great point about the 0-2 hanger.

However, NO ONE in the media or even on the several threads here has pointed out Scioscia's mistakes.

Pinella knew what Scioscia should have done but was covering for his buddy. That's the one problem with players/managers doing a braoacast!

Harrelson would have said flat out that he froze his pitcher and missed the obvious pitch out.

Buck is a sissy and McCarver needs to hang it up.