All Century Team revisited

Colby,

Cool idea. I have not seen a list compiled like this before. It truly does make for interesting discussion. I too loved Robin Yount but that is outside the discussion.

It seems as you work your way closer to the present day, the picks become more controversial. For instance, Mike Schmidt in place of George Brett. However, this is complicated by the decade and position requirements of the list. One interesting thing I remember from Ted Williams' book was that the person he learned the most from hitting-wise was Rogers Hornsby.

Any list of baseball all time "anything" that doesn't include BARRY BONDS is useless.

How do you not put Bonds on there? He is probably the greatest hitter in the history of baseball, and for much of his career was a very good fielder too. I'm not saying the players you list aren't worthy, but if Bonds isn't on the first team, the list isn't credible, in my opinion.

According to Patrick's article... Someone had to be the Left Fielder. It wasn't a list of the absolute top 10 players. Bond's is a Left Fielder. Also I think everyone will agree LF is the easiest of the outfield positions to play.

So the comparison is Bonds and Ted Williams (both are/were Left Fielders). Haven't got time but maybe someone should compare their careers. Ted Williams is not exactly a bad choice as the best LF even though many others would pick Bonds. In fact, I would pick Bonds too, but some think Ted Williams was the greatest hitter ever.

Is Patrick's list not credible because he picked Ted Williams over Bonds? I think some people would argue if it went the other way.

I'm just glad he picked Willie Mays in CF. I might have complained on that one.

I do disagree with Patrick’s choice at 2B. Alomar was great for a while, but I have a hard time thinking he belongs with the rest of that group. Odd how that incident “spitting on the ump” kind of turned his career almost immediately downhill. Ryne Sandberg, Joe Morgan, or some guy from the old days. Rogers Hornsby perhaps, only he played in the decade of Babe Ruth. Hard to argue with the choice of Babe Ruth!

I think picking one player at every position while using all the decades caught up to him. Agree or not, a well thought out list in my estimation.

Also have a hard time thinking Walter Johnson, Christy Mathewson, etc were better than Roger Clemens. Clemens did his thing in the record breaking power hitting era, rather than the dead ball era.

It's not exactly like Ted Williams is chopped liver. He never played under the shroud of performance enhancing drugs and he also missed several of his prime playing years to the armed services.

Bonds certainly had Williams in the speed category but I have always wondered about his fielding abilities. The play that always sticks out in my mind was not throwing out Syd Bream at home which prevented the Pirates from going to the World Series.

Any list of baseball all time "anything" that doesn't include BARRY BONDS is useless.

Ok, your list starts with Bonds in LF, from 1990-1999. Who is on the rest of your list? It's pretty easy to call something useless without putting your neck on the line.

Pay more attention to the parameters that I have set in place. Some people have emailed me asking why those restrictions are there, and it's just a way to make a conversation that has already been debated times before a little more interesting and difficult.

I take Ted Williams any day over Barry Bonds, and I have always been a big fan of Bonds despite the controversey that surrounds him.

I agree Jerry, Alomar at 2B is the stinker on this list. I think the easiest way to fix it would be to take Joe Morgan in the 70s and Pudge Rodriguez in the 90s. I also agree that Clemens deserves as much contention as Bonds does, although I still believe Lefty Grove is the greatest omission. What he did during his time period is incredibly impressive.

Thanks for the feedback, keep it coming.

Barry vs Ted in Left Field:

Let's look at their careers. Barry Bonds is great, here is the 162 game averages of each super star. The top figure is in bold and if they tied both are in bold.

AB – Barry: 542 – Ted: 545
Runs – Barry: 123 – Ted: 127
Hits – Barry: 163 – Ted: 188
2B – Barry: 33 – Ted: 37
3B – Barry: 5 – Ted: 5
HR – Barry: 42 – Ted: 37
RBI – Barry: 110 – Ted: 130
BB – Barry: 137 – Ted: 143
SO – Barry: 85 – Ted: 50
Batting Ave. - Barry:.300 – Ted: .344
OB% - ..Barry: 442 – Ted: .482
SLG% - Barry: .611 – Ted: .634
Total Bases – Barry: 331 – Ted: 345
HBP – Barry: 8 – Ted – 14

Patrick, I change my mind, I would pick Ted Williams too. I guess I kind of forgot just how good he was!

PG,

I have not chuckled so hard in a long time. That is truly amazing when you do it that way

bbscout, That's a great list!

There's always too many to stop at any certain number.

ARod will probably break all the records if he plays long enough.

The one guy that truly has amazing numbers, and always seems to get the short end of the stick when all time type teams are named. Frank Robinson! It sometimes seems as though he never played and his numbers are up there with most anyone. I think Randy Johnson might end up being the pitcher who fits this bill.

Jerry, I'm glad I convinced you otherwise .

I agree that Frank Robinson is one of the more underrated players in history.

I also enjoy bbscout's greatest players he had ever seen list. In a few years I think a lot of people are going to have a hard time leaving Albert Pujols and Arod off of such a list. And I enjoyed the inclusion of Frank Thomas. As a fan, there is no hitter that I have ever feared more when he has stepped up to the plate.

This stuff is fun. bbscout here's my two minute version of the all defensive team. I would bet at least a few of these are on your list.

Those best and worst draft lists are better off left in Baseball America's or Peter Gammons hands. Especially the worst list.

Sorry, forgot the defensive list.

1B – Keith Hernandez
2B – Ryne Sandberg
SS – Ozzie Smith
3B – Brooks Robinson
C – Johnny Bench
LF – Carl Yazstremski
CF – Willie Mays
RF – Roberto Clemente
P – Greg Maddux

quote:

Originally posted by bbscout:
C- Johnny Bench
1B- Willie McCovey
2B- Joe Morgan
CF- Willie Mays
RF- Henry Aaron
LHS- Sandy Koufax
RP- Rollie Fingers

These are the names that made me a fan of baseball for life as a kid/teenager. For my own personal ("love the game") list, I'd add Bob Gibson, Mickey Mantle, Tony Perez, Roberto Clemente, Lou Brock, Wille Stargell, Brooks Robinson, Frank Robinson, Steve Carlton, Mike Schmidt (from Dayton, OH) and Reggie Jackson.

And the skipper, Sparky Anderson.

Also loved watching Ken Griffey Sr. hit and run and Cesar Geronimo throw bullets from the OF. (I suppose my objectivity would be in question here. )

The thing I remember the most about Hernandez was his arm. They actually had him go out to receive the relay from the right field corner. I know Wes Parker was good, but didn’t see him as much, I guess.

That is high praise coming from you, on Walker. Guess I always concentrated more on his bat, though he was a complete player with a great arm. On a more comical note… Was it him who once gave the ball to a kid in the stands after the 2nd out and with runners rounding the bases? Then went to go get the ball back. That was one of the funniest things I’ve ever seen. I think he even got a good laugh out of that one.

Great player! Too bad he had to battle so many injuries later in his career.

Funny thing occurs to me me with these lists and maybe it applies somewhat to scouting as well. I have seen Ozzie Smith play a couple of dozen games and agree he belongs in the Hall of Fame. I have seen Omar Visquel play hundreds and hundreds of games and in my mind is the better player. He truly was the pitcher's best friend. There were alot of Indians more celebrated in the mid to late 90's but he was the key player in my mind. At a certain point, certain players are simply great in their own right.

I think it was Benny Agbayani that did that.

As far as Bonds vs. Williams, or some of the other greats, I guess it just goes to show the futiltiy or folly of trying to pick and all anything team. Both are truly great and deserve to be on almost any list, including greatest left handed hitters, so how do you exclude one?

bbscout,

I'd really enjoy seeing that amateur list.

I still remember the look on Walkers face when that happened. Afterward it looked like he was doing everything he could to keep from ROTFLHAO. It was good to see a great player laugh at himself. And people get upset when young kids make a mistake.

ClevelandDad,

You bring up a very good arguement regarding Vizquel. He was/is one of the best. Here's some comparable stats for he and Ozzie Smith.

Games – Ozzie: 2511 – Omar: 2275
PO – Ozzie: 4249 – Omar: 3528
Assists – Ozzie: 8375 – Omar: 6537
Errors – Ozzie: 281 – Omar: 168
DPs – Ozzie: 1590 – Omar: 1479
Fld% - Ozzie: .978 – Omar: .984

In 236 more games Ozzie had 721 more put outs, 1838 more Assists, 111 more double plays but made 113 more errors. Omar had a slightly better fielding %. Guess one could argue that Ozzie covered more ground thus more tough plays making more errors. But there's no doubt Vizquel is in the same class. Of course, there are artificial turf vs grass and other things to consider. They're both great shortstops.

06catcherdad, It's all in fun. For me anyway. The real reason I decided to pick Williams over Bonds is because Ted never hit a homerun off my son.

PG,

Thanks for the side-by-side comparisons today. They seem to reveal more than our memories or personal biases provide. One comparison was more of an offensive one and one a defensive comparison. In both cases, I was surprised by the results. The one player who there never seems to be an argument about is Ruth. Maybe someone compares favorably with some statistic offensively, but when you look at all of his offensive stats, then combine that with his pitching stats, there simply are no peers.

ClevelandDad,

My Gramps use to tell me Babe was the best ever. That’s good enough for me!

He also told me the next best ever was Josh Gibson from the Negro Leagues. He actually played against him, Gibson that is. No my grandpa wasn’t a black man, but he was way ahead of his time when it came to racial issues.

Doug,

No wonder you still have a job these days. That’s quite a list there!

I saw Nick Johnson play a lot in the Minor Leagues (Yankees). I really thought he would end up being one of the best hitters in baseball. He was too good for the minor leagues, but he was blocked at the time.

My all-time MLB team

C - Johnny Bench
1B - Lou Gehrig
2B - Rogers Hornsby
3B - Mike Schmidt
SS - Honus Wagner
LF - Ted Williams
CF - Joe DiMaggio
RF - George Herman Ruth
RHP - Roger Clemens
LHP - Sandy Koufax
RP - Mariano Rivera
Manager - Sparky Anderson

i'll take berra over bench
also at their best koufax may have had an edge but i'll take spahn, also a great hitter & a master for many more years than sandy
clemens is great but i'll swap him for gibson

As a Cards fan, I've seen Ozzie play a lot more than Omar, so I don't know if Vizquel has fallen victim to the same thing, but Ozzie was credited with a lot of errors on plays that would have been hits with most other ss's playing. His range and quickness got him to balls that "should" have gotten through for hits.

Orlando

Back in the days those guys played the official scorers gave errors or no errors based on what the player was expected to do--some set the bar so high it hurt them and others gained by it

Precisely, TR. My son and I have had a running joke throughout my scorekeeper days --- 'was that an error or an Ozzie Error', meaning was it a legit assessment or were my expectations of that player so high that I was 'punishing' him for not doing the extaordinary, as seemed to happen often enough with Ozzie.

Get Mays back in CF. Joe was not in the same league as Mays.......

No denying that, dark. Mays played for the NL and DiMaggio for the AL....

Wrong application Orlando. This is the all time team. Mays was the best all around player of all time

I wasn't disagreeing, dark.

See, you said "not in the same league"...

It was a joke. Hence the winkie thing. Do excuse me.

quote:

Originally posted by BeenthereIL:
Any list of baseball all time "anything" that doesn't include BARRY BONDS is useless.

If I might suggest something here you may have forgotten although B Bonds is good he was/is no way close to Ted or even better how about the second greatest hitter of all time and he did play LF and without shoes as well. You got it "SHOELESS JOE " just my humble opinion of course...thanks all for allowing me to vent

All Century Team has to include Art Shamsky.

Preferably in rightfield.

Only with Tommie Agee in center and Cleon Jones in left, if you want to get it really right!

Yeah baby.

Jones - Agee - Shamsky.

No one else even stood a chance.

And of all things, Shamsky was playing in front of my old minor league coach with the White Sox, the legendary J.C. Martin, who Thank God did not know how to run inside the baseline when he bunted...remember?

Sure do.

And the All Century infield would be The Glider - Buddy - Kenny Bosssssssssssswelllll - and Clink.

With Grote and Martin sharing some duties behind the plate - and Weis ready to rock and roll at a moments notice.

What a squad!

Our pal Art actually played less in right than Ron (the catch) Swoboda, although he hit 65 points higher that year. Nolan Ryan, who could be a team of the century RHP, was 22 and only started 10 games. It was the last time Ryan had a teammate double his strikeouts for the year (Seaver had more than 200). I LOVED that team. I used to mimic Jerry Koosman's deliver in Little League. We just had different results...

darkmoon,

I share your opinion on Mays!

I stand by my choice of DiMaggio, but understand the Mays perspective. Careful of the term "all-around", though. While Mays may be right there with DiMaggio, neither however, stepped on the mound. Babe Ruth was 94-46 as a pitcher. With his production and prowess at the plate, he's the best all-around player of all time.

I had the good fortune of seeing Mays during his entire career, saw him a number of times in his first year, and Joe D at the tail end of his--- Say Hey to me was the greatest all around player I have ever seen