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43 replies

All-Star Game Check Swing Strike Out

O otownmike100+ posts
I understand MLB/all umpires are going to, and are supposed to "call it as they see it." My question, it is the All-Star game and the check swing is probably one of harder calls for both 1U & 3U. With umpire/coach-player relationships already a little strained, (97-ejections through Jun-30 and 17 through Jul-9)rather than giving Big Poppi the benefit of a close 3rd strike check swing 3U instead rings him up. Why, what's the point? Even replay made it difficult to tell, and it's the All-Star game. Fans want to see Poppi hit, not get rung up from 90-feet away on a check swing. 3U can think it was a good call, but it wasn't.
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piaa_umppiaa_ump5,000+ posts
We will have to wait until Jimmy is here for a MLB/MiLB view on what/how an All-Star game is viewed from the Pro Umpire perspective....

But for me....its not an All-Star game for me...its just another game I am assigned to...ball/strike/safe/out....a check swing is a "did he or did he not go"....Im not calling it any other way.....

If we dont call check swings the same way we always do because someone wants to see Papi hit...then the All-Star Game becomes the Globetrotter/Washington Generals exhibition game.....

I saw the call on TV...and in the replay...I had no issue with it being called a strike....
Last edited by piaa_ump
O otownmike100+ posts
I definitely do not think it was a clear strike. I am not saying "miss" calls because it is an all-star game (ref; great call on calling out Berkman at 2B), however when it is the subjective check-swing strike that could be called either way why not err on the side of the All-Star. Believe me, mnobody is paying for the overpriced ticket, the $10 beer, $8 hotdog, the $20 parking and the rest of the wonderful experience to see the umpires ring someone up from 100-feet away and take the bat of their hands.
piaa_umppiaa_ump5,000+ posts
I cant disagree with you more....the umpiring has to remain as consistent to the regular season as possible...(its already played at less than full speed....note all plays at the plate...)

If they did what you suggest then what you have is definately the Harlem Globetrotters.......a game resembling baseball but played solely for the entertainment of the fans......the entertainment should come from a well played game, not a sham game ....isnt that what the HR derby is for?

You should also remember the winner of this game determines home field advantage for the world series......I do not want that hinging on an umpire NOT making a call he normally would because of someone wanting to be more entertained in an all star game....
Last edited by piaa_ump
C cabbagedadHSBaseballWeb member since 2011
Otown,
While the fan in me hears what you are saying, the "fair" in me says they have to call the game properly. Besides, there was another all-star making that pitch and another calling for it in that spot. Not that any of that should matter to the umps.
Now, was it a good call, period?... to that, I can see an argument. That's probably the reason we reacted the way we did at first sight.
Last edited by cabbagedad
EH Emanski's Heroes1,000+ posts
The dilemma is this....the game is already a Globetrotters-esque exhibition game (and in my opinion that is the way it should be played).

However, now "it counts" (which is absurd). So if an umpire gives the benefit of the doubt for the purpose of show and then that call makes a difference....then there's an uproar the other way.

If it were strictly an exhibition I'd be fine with giving borderline check swing to the hitter so the fans get another chance to see him hit. But that's not the case.
Jimmy03Jimmy031,000+ posts
Let me see if I understand the basic premise here: Umpires should adjust how they rule on certain, but not all, rules at the All Star game in deference the All Star players?

Do you have a complete list of which rules should be ignored or misapplied for this game? And, which player gets the benefit of the doubt...offense or defense. If we call a ball in a situation that our training calls for us to call a strike, are we doing the game a favor, or screwing the pitcher?

Can you imagine the outcry if the umpires report..."Well, in a regular game, we'd call that rule differently, but, hey, what the hell, this is the All Star game."

The umpires at the All Star game are under even more scrutiny than they are doing regular season games. They are not about to change tolerances or take a bye on enforcing rules.

Checked swings are often a subject of disagreement. Many fans and players and especially announcers, have no idea what umpires are looking for. Placement of bat, "breaking of wrists", etc are no where to be found in the rules. Was an attempt made? Yes or no?

You may disagree with the umpire. You are both using your backgrounds and training. His includes professional training in which that subject is covered significantly. Yours, most likely is anectdotal.

Let me give you an example of some of what I've been taught to include in my evaluation of a checked swing when I'm on the grass and squared to the plate.

Where's the bat, e.g. is it still on his shoulder? No? Where are his hands and arms...did they extend and move forward? Yes? Where is his belt buckle...is it still facing the plate or did he "uncork" and his buckle is now facing me?

Lastly, did he make an attempt?

Years ago MLB did a study on checked swings and found that most times when an error was judged to have been made, it was when a checked swing was ruled to be a ball, and that the call of "yes he did" should have been made more often.
Jimmy03Jimmy031,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by otownmike:
Why have over 100 ejections?


Ejections are based on player and manager behavior. They know what it takes to get tossed and have a decision to make.

Ejections are up in part because MLB has told umpires to enforce the rules regarding leaving positions to argure balls and strikes and to not let players argue as long and as often.

After a decline in ejections in the late 90's and early 2000's, they are close to where they were in the 70's.
Last edited by Jimmy03
A Ametsman10+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by otownmike:
(ref; great call on calling out Berkman at 2B),

This wasn't a great call, it was the right call. The ump stayed with it like he should. First of all he was tagged before he got there and secondly he didn't stay in contact with the base. This was a call the ump should of made and not have it be considered a great call.
Hawk19Hawk19100+ posts
quote:
Believe me, nobody is paying for the overpriced ticket, the $10 beer, $8 hotdog, the $20 parking and the rest of the wonderful experience to see the umpires ring someone up from 100-feet away and take the bat [out] of their hands.


Hey, I was there. It was $30 to park...

I doesn't matter if it was a good call or not. Getting rung up on a check swing is just part of the game. I loved it...

If you want to just see hitting, watch the HR derby...(which was also a blast....) Wink
piaa_umppiaa_ump5,000+ posts
Mike,
I cant follow your logic....you are asking to call the game differently...you want a marginal call to benefit the batter......and I cant even imagine why you say this would "benefit the umpire"...if anything this type of game calling would bring nothing but derision and scorn down on the umpire for being biased towards the offense...

Currently on check swings, as Jimmy pointed out, we teach and are taught to make a call based on what we see....Not whether the call will benefit the batter ...

you want that changed...I see that...but thats flawed....what right does a batter have to get this call leaning towards him?......why doesnt the pitcher get the benefit of this marginal check swing call?.....Is it because you are more of a fan of hitting than pitching?

Ive made marginal calls before...tons of them....never once do I consider who the call will benefit....it is what it is...

If I think he offered, strike....if not....ball.....

Hve I ever been wrong?......sure but I never leaned the check swing call one way or another.....thats cheating....the rules dont allow it...
Last edited by piaa_ump
JMoffJMoff1,000+ posts
I've been a Red Sox fan since the '74 season which was way before it was fashionable. Back in the early 80's it was cheaper for my buds and I to drive to Boston and buy walk up bleacher seats ($4.25) than to go to the movies ($5.50). This math assumed dad bought the gas and we walked a few blocks after parking for free on the street or paid a buck to park the car and $.50 to ride the subway...

Anyway, I love Pappi as much as anyone. I'd love to see him hit a 450 footer and win the AS game as much as anyone on the planet.

However, from a simple minded fan's perspective, I don't want the rules of the game to change in an AS game. Fact of the matter is, there is an AS pitcher on the mound trying to get him out. That's what pitcher's do. He made a pitch and there was a close swing and the umpires ruled. It was done.

Don't get confused with the All Star games in Hockey and Football, those are contact sports and the game is simply played differently than a "regular" game. In Hockey they don't play defense, they just try and score. Defensive players are allowed to score, so everyone can think offense. Only the poor goalie has his dignity sacrificed.

In Football, heck I think the players all try and get out of playing and their excuses are the most exciting part of the game. The rules basically disallow any real football. They should just give it up.

In basketball, the rules are the same, but the players just try and score a huge number of points. The player's selected for their teams generally aren't selected for defense, so you get a game that is very offensive. Don't blame that on officials, the players simply put on a show for the fans that involves no defense. Fans pay big money to watch, so let it happen.

In baseball, the key defensive player is the pitcher. He isn't a significant contributor on offense, so his contribution is preventing his opposition from scoring by retiring hitters. It's what he does.

Why should you ask umpires to change the way they make calls which prevent him from doing his job and demonstrating to the fans that, "he's pretty freaking good at pitching" ?

Simply put baseball is different, lets not go changing it for one night.
Last edited by JMoff
A Ametsman10+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Jimmy03:
And Prince Fielder's homerun wasn't a great hit, he was doing what he should do...kept his head down, got his hands through and hit the ball.

And thre wasn't a single great pitch all night...the pitchers were just doing what they should do.


Players are supposed to make great plays, they are the game it's when the umps think they are the stars is when there are problems. Do the fans pay to see great plays by the players or the ump make a great call, whatever that might be.
yawetagyawetag100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Ametsman:
This wasn't a great call, it was the right call. The ump stayed with it like he should. First of all he was tagged before he got there and secondly he didn't stay in contact with the base. This was a call the ump should of made and not have it be considered a great call.

If he was tagged before he got there, then the umpire would have missed the original call. He was already going into his safe mechanic (even saying "NO!") before he came off the bag.
C catcher1510+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Ametsman:
quote:
Originally posted by Jimmy03:
And Prince Fielder's homerun wasn't a great hit, he was doing what he should do...kept his head down, got his hands through and hit the ball.

And thre wasn't a single great pitch all night...the pitchers were just doing what they should do.


Players are supposed to make great plays, they are the game it's when the umps think they are the stars is when there are problems. Do the fans pay to see great plays by the players or the ump make a great call, whatever that might be.

That is what i'm trying to say.
C catcher1510+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by yawetag:
quote:
Originally posted by Ametsman:
This wasn't a great call, it was the right call. The ump stayed with it like he should. First of all he was tagged before he got there and secondly he didn't stay in contact with the base. This was a call the ump should of made and not have it be considered a great call.

If he was tagged before he got there, then the umpire would have missed the original call. He was already going into his safe mechanic (even saying "NO!") before he came off the bag.

Agreed. That was a great call
Jimmy03Jimmy031,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by catcher15:
quote:
Originally posted by Jimmy03:
One of the dumbest things I've ever seen written on the internet.

Guess what, he gets on TV no matter how he rules.

Thank you. But not with a smile and his fist in the air. This hapend twice. Once at 1st once at third. Showboating plain and simple.


That's the signal he's required to use. If he ruled "No, he didn't go" he'd get as much air time with hands/arms in ths "safe" position.

If he frowned instead of smiled, you'd b!tch that he had a negative attitude.

He simply did his job as required and as trained and put nothing extra into it.

Face it, you just don't like umpires.

The only time umpires are accused of "trying to be the show" is when they make calls that somebody doesn't like.

I had a play last night on the bases: Bottom of last, home down by one, two outs, runners at second and third. R2 dozes off and pitcher, prior to taking the rubber, fires to F6 at second. R2 wakes up and tries to get back, but F6 tags his hand just prior to it reaching the bag.

The defensive coach thanked me for staying on top of the situation, the offensive coach accused me of "inserting" myself into the game and taking it way from the players.

Incredible.
Last edited by Jimmy03
Jimmy03Jimmy031,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Bulldog 19:
quote:
The only time umpires are accused of "trying to be the show" is when they make calls that somebody doesn't like.


Or when they are so arrogant they call the broadcaster down to the umpire's room after the broadcaster makes a comment about him on the air!


And should that happen, how does it make them part of the show...the show's over.

And how is that arrogant? If an announcer made a mistake about you, wouldn't you want the opportunity to correct it?

Announcers are not at the beck and call of umpires, if an announcer honored and umpire's request for a discussion, it was his decision.
Last edited by Jimmy03
piaa_umppiaa_ump5,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by catcher15:
quote:
Originally posted by Ametsman:
quote:
Originally posted by Jimmy03:
And Prince Fielder's homerun wasn't a great hit, he was doing what he should do...kept his head down, got his hands through and hit the ball.

And thre wasn't a single great pitch all night...the pitchers were just doing what they should do.


Players are supposed to make great plays, they are the game it's when the umps think they are the stars is when there are problems. Do the fans pay to see great plays by the players or the ump make a great call, whatever that might be.

That is what i'm trying to say.


Painting all umpires with a pretty broad brush dont you think?........

It always makes me cringe when in a thead someone comes in and starts spouting off about "umpires thinking they are the stars of the show...."...

Jimmy said it best...when he said..that he had never met an umpire who believed anyone, other than his wife, or evaluator, came to see him.....Are there umpires out there that shouldnt be doing it, certainly....there are....

but consider this...

How many baseball games are going on all over the US at any given time?...thousands?
How many are being umpired by volunteers?...thousands??
How many are donating time, money and expertise to the programs....thousands??
How many are studying and working at clinics at their own expense to get better??...thousands??

Thousands of umpires ...all umpiring thousands of games and this is the chestnut that keeps getting rolled out.....

Jimmy/Dash/yawetag/Matt/Michael S Taylor and others ....all go by names you dont recognize but would be amazed at the level and experience that they bring here for you...for free.....

I"m nothing special compared to the guys who post here regularly....just a working umpire whose son benefited from the advice I got here and stayed to be helpful to those who might need it....

But as to me......

Ive been on TV umpiring....
Ive umpired in front of a crowd of 10K...
Ive umpired in front of a crowd of 4 and a cow...
Ive umpired on college fields and minor league fields and cow pastures in 6 states....
Ive umpired for free...
I train umpires for free....
I take CPR classes and stay certified to protect players and coaches should they need it...
I've stood in front of the train of child abuse so that a player would not be beaten anymore.....

Never once have I ever considered myself a star or the reason anyone came to the game.......

and all for what...so that someone can come in here and rub that broad brush all over my friends and colleagues??....all because of a miniscule amount of umpires that should not be working....

But I wont give up the satisfied feeling that I have when I walk off the field with my partner knowing we did the best job our skills and training could offer....

There are thousands of exceptional umpires working all over the US right now who dont deserve this type of slander....and certainly not in THIS Forum, on THIS site, where they come and offer assistance TO YOU ALL 24/7 365 days a year.......

enough already....
Last edited by piaa_ump
C catcher1510+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by piaa_ump:
quote:
Originally posted by catcher15:
quote:
Originally posted by Ametsman:
quote:
Originally posted by Jimmy03:
And Prince Fielder's homerun wasn't a great hit, he was doing what he should do...kept his head down, got his hands through and hit the ball.

And thre wasn't a single great pitch all night...the pitchers were just doing what they should do.



Players are supposed to make great plays, they are the game it's when the umps think they are the stars is when there are problems. Do the fans pay to see great plays by the players or the ump make a great call, whatever that might be.

That is what i'm trying to say.


Painting all umpires with a pretty broad brush dont you think?........

It always makes me cringe when in a thead someone comes in and starts spouting off about "umpires thinking they are the stars of the show...."...

Jimmy said it best...when he said..that he had never met an umpire who believed anyone, other than his wife, or evaluator, came to see him.....Are there umpires out there that shouldnt be doing it, certainly....there are....

but consider this...

How many baseball games are going on all over the US at any given time?...thousands?
How many are being umpired by volunteers?...thousands??
How many are donating time, money and expertise to the programs....thousands??
How many are studying and working at clinics at their own expense to get better??...thousands??

Thousands of umpires ...all umpiring thousands of games and this is the chestnut that keeps getting rolled out.....

Jimmy/Dash/yawetag/Matt/Michael S Taylor and others ....all go by names you dont recognize but would be amazed at the level and experience that they bring here for you...for free.....

I"m nothing special compared to the guys who post here regularly....just a working umpire whose son benefited from the advice I got here and stayed to be helpful to those who might need it....

But as to me......

Ive been on TV umpiring....
Ive umpired in front of a crowd of 10K...
Ive umpired in front of a crowd of 4 and a cow...
Ive umpired on college fields and minor league fields and cow pastures in 6 states....
Ive umpired for free...
I train umpires for free....
I take CPR classes and stay certified to protect players and coaches should they need it...
I've stood in front of the train of child abuse so that a player would not be beaten anymore.....

Never once have I ever considered myself a star or the reason anyone came to the game.......

and all for what...so that someone can come in here and rub that broad brush all over my friends and colleagues??....all because of a miniscule amount of umpires that should not be working....

But I wont give up the satisfied feeling that I have when I walk off the field with my partner knowing we did the best job our skills and training could offer....

There are thousands of exceptional umpires working all over the US right now who dont deserve this type of slander....and certainly not in THIS Forum, on THIS site, where they come and offer assistance TO YOU ALL 24/7 365 days a year.......

enough already....

Unless you were working 1st or 3rd in the MLB All-Star game Tuesday night I was not speaking of you.
Jimmy03Jimmy031,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by catcher15:

Unless you were working 1st or 3rd in the MLB All-Star game Tuesday night I was not speaking of you.


Understood. You were just speaking of the performance of two professional umpires with no training in, nor education of, nor, apparently, any understanding of what they do.

It would be like me criticizing a pitcher's mechanics, or a managers strategy, which I never do.
C catcher1510+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Jimmy03:
quote:
Originally posted by catcher15:

Unless you were working 1st or 3rd in the MLB All-Star game Tuesday night I was not speaking of you.


Understood. You were just speaking of the performance of two professional umpires with no training in, nor education of, nor, apparently, any understanding of what they do.
It would be like me criticizing a pitcher's mechanics, or a managers strategy, which I never do.

You have no idea what I know. As to what they did. they interjected themselves into the game where they didn't need to. In real time I had "no" to both appeals before the umpires ruled. I don't even remeber who was batting or for what team. It is my "opinion" that in a "real" game neither would have been ruled strikes.
Don't be so defensive. When someone says that an umpire screwed up they are not saying all umoires are screw ups.
Last edited by catcher15
Jimmy03Jimmy031,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by catcher15:
quote:
Originally posted by Jimmy03:
quote:
Originally posted by catcher15:

Unless you were working 1st or 3rd in the MLB All-Star game Tuesday night I was not speaking of you.


Understood. You were just speaking of the performance of two professional umpires with no training in, nor education of, nor, apparently, any understanding of what they do.
It would be like me criticizing a pitcher's mechanics, or a managers strategy, which I never do.

You have no idea what I know. As to what they did. they interjected themselves into the game where they didn't need to. In real time I had "no" to both appeals before the umpires ruled. I don't even remeber who was batting or for what team. It is my "opinion" that in a "real" game neither would have been ruled strikes.


So, because your opinion differs from the umpires, they must be interjecting themselves in the game.

Wow.

No one's being defensive, just amazed. And, yes, you've given a pretty good picture of what you know, and it certainly doesn't come from pro training.
Jimmy03Jimmy031,000+ posts
Those who believe umpires inject themselves in games when they respond with a strike signal to a checked swing appeal will probably become apoplectic over the relatively new mandated mechanic on a checked swing appeal on strike three...the base umpire not only is to signal the strike, but also ring up the batter with a punch out mechanic.

Again, it will be umpires doing their job as directed, but, no doubt, they'll be accused of "trying to be the show."
Last edited by Jimmy03
O otownmike100+ posts
quote:
I cant follow your logic....you are asking to call the game differently...you want a marginal call to benefit the batter......and I cant even imagine why you say this would "benefit the umpire"...if anything this type of game calling would bring nothing but derision and scorn down on the umpire for being biased towards the offense...

Stan,

I am not asking them to call the game differently. I understand this is one of the hardest calls 1U or 3U has to make in a game. I also understand TV angles, and slow motion make it even harder. All I was suggesting is it shoud be really obvious based on the training MLB umps have and in this particular case I am not sure this was a check swing strike.
C catcher1510+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Jimmy03:
quote:
Originally posted by catcher15:
quote:
Originally posted by Jimmy03:
quote:
Originally posted by catcher15:

Unless you were working 1st or 3rd in the MLB All-Star game Tuesday night I was not speaking of you.


Understood. You were just speaking of the performance of two professional umpires with no training in, nor education of, nor, apparently, any understanding of what they do.
It would be like me criticizing a pitcher's mechanics, or a managers strategy, which I never do.

You have no idea what I know. As to what they did. they interjected themselves into the game where they didn't need to. In real time I had "no" to both appeals before the umpires ruled. I don't even remeber who was batting or for what team. It is my "opinion" that in a "real" game neither would have been ruled strikes.


So, because your opinion differs from the umpires, they must be interjecting themselves in the game.

Wow.

No one's being defensive, just amazed. And, yes, you've given a pretty good picture of what you know, and it certainly doesn't come from pro training.

Hey, I have been here long enough to know that umpires are never wrong. And if they are it's not hard to get many more umpires to drink the cool-aid and try to cover for them. You will see it your way and I will see it mine. Don't worry the umpire will still get his check. Just like the weatherman he doesn't have to be right.
Jimmy03Jimmy031,000+ posts
ML umpires make mistakes. Just do a little searching of video highlights at MLB.com. We were not addressing the correctness of the call, we were addressing your complaint about their mechanics, which were the prescribed mechanics. Whether or not the batter went wasn't the issue. I wasn't there.

The other point we were addressing was your statement that they were guilty of interjecting themselves in the game because you disagreed with their call. That is sinply ridiculous.

quote:
by catcher15:

As to what they did. they interjected themselves into the game where they didn't need to. In real time I had "no" to both appeals before the umpires ruled. I don't even remeber who was batting or for what team. It is my "opinion" that in a "real" game neither would have been ruled strikes.
Last edited by Jimmy03
piaa_umppiaa_ump5,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by catcher15:
Hey, I have been here long enough to know that umpires are never wrong. And if they are it's not hard to get many more umpires to drink the cool-aid and try to cover for them. You will see it your way and I will see it mine. Don't worry the umpire will still get his check. Just like the weatherman he doesn't have to be right.


Dont expect a free pass on this one.....Im calling BS on this last post....

If you have been "HERE" long enough you would see plenty of posts where we call out umpires for mistakes in mechanics and rules knowledge.....

They dont get a free pass either....

Then when you cant defend your position, you roll out the cheap shot about "getting his check".....

When you start out the seasons, Hundreds if not thousands of dollars in the hole financially for:

Uniforms
Gear
Licences
Clinics
Training
Liability Insurance

Then come back and talk to us......getting paid for what I do...and for what I have to pay to do it well is one thing I'll never apologize or take criticism for.....
Last edited by piaa_ump
C catcher1510+ posts
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jimmy03:
ML umpires make mistakes. Just do a little searching of video highlights at MLB.com. We were not addressing the correctness of the call, we were addressing your complaint about their mechanics, which were the prescribed mechanics. Whether or not the batter went wasn't the issue. I wasn't there.

The other point we were addressing was your statement that they were guilty of interjecting themselves in the game because you disagreed with their call. That is sinply ridiculous.

[QUOTE] by catcher15:

I from the start have been addressing the correctness of the call. My opinion is it was wrong. The only problem I have with the mechanic was the big TV smile. I have been on the field as a player, a coach, and an umpire. I have seen plenty of umpires interject themselves in the game. Not all, maybe not even many. But I believe this particular umpire did.
I don't hate umpires. I get along well with most umpires when I'm coaching. In our area we are blessed with a good group of umpires. They are professional, knowledgeable, and mostly without ego. I have a few times had discussions on the field when I believed they had miss ruled on a play. A few times they have come to me later and told me I was right they were sorry. I have also appologized to them when I have been wrong. It all works better without the egos.
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