And?

I will let others answer first but remember the answer is different between Fed and OBR.

I've got R3 scores; R1 goes to 2nd base. 2-2 count..

IN OBR, doesn't the offense have the choice of taking the outcome of the play (run scores, inning over) or taking the penalty? Obviously in this case they'd take the penalty.

Eject R1 for taking so long to get to second after two throws.

I'm thinking that in OBR a balk doesn't kill the pitch because you can still make the pitch and the runner(s) are protected to at least one base and after that then they are on their own.

I'm inclined to think that possibly the pick kills the play since it's not a pitch and everyone moves up a base.

Or using it's still live aspect of the rule you let things play out and once play is over call time. Since neither runner advanced farther than the base they would be awarded then everyone is safe. So the run scores and R1 (while probably in the doghouse) gets to stay on second.

Fed, time, dead ball, everybody advances 1 base. period.
Obr, live ball, run scores & leave runner on second. (Because of balk).

OBR only:
As soon as F3 caught the ball, the ball became dead due to the balk. The balk is enforced from there. R3 scores, R1 to 2nd.

A thrown ball is delayed dead because the defense may throw it away and the offense can capitalize on that. Once F3 caught the ball no further playing action is allowed.

quote:

Originally posted by thecloser:
Fed, time, dead ball, everybody advances 1 base. period.

quote:

Originally posted by Forest Ump:
OBR only:
As soon as F3 caught the ball, the ball became dead due to the balk. The balk is enforced from there. R3 scores, R1 to 2nd.

A thrown ball is delayed dead because the defense may throw it away and the offense can capitalize on that. Once F3 caught the ball no further playing action is allowed.

These.

quote:

Originally posted by Forest Ump:
OBR only:
As soon as F3 caught the ball, the ball became dead due to the balk. The balk is enforced from there. R3 scores, R1 to 2nd.

A thrown ball is delayed dead because the defense may throw it away and the offense can capitalize on that. Once F3 caught the ball no further playing action is allowed.

We have a winner.

quote:

Originally posted by Bulldog 19:
....
IN OBR, doesn't the offense have the choice of taking the outcome of the play (run scores, inning over) or taking the penalty?

Since we have a winner, I'll reply to this.
Nobody has an option regarding balks. Depending on the circumstances a balk may be enforced or disregarded, but the outcome is determined by events.

Basically, the balk is disregarded if
1) the pitcher makes a wild pickoff throw, and all runners reach at least their advance base
2) there is a pitch and the batter acquires 1st and all other runners reach at least their advance base.
Otherwise the balk is enforced.

Example: R1, R3, a balk but the pitcher pitches and hits the batter.
Ruling: Since the R3 was not forced by the hit batsman, the balk is enforced. R3 scores, R1 to 2nd, the pitch is nullified and the batter remains at bat with the count he had before the balk.

quote:

Originally posted by Jimmy03:
What should the umpires have done/do?

So, to answer the OP:
They should have killed the action after F3 caught the pick-off. R3 scores, R1 to 2B. 2 outs, 2-2 count.

quote:

Originally posted by 3FingeredGlove:

quote:

Originally posted by Bulldog 19:
....
IN OBR, doesn't the offense have the choice of taking the outcome of the play (run scores, inning over) or taking the penalty?

Since we have a winner, I'll reply to this.
Nobody has an option regarding balks. Depending on the circumstances a balk may be enforced or disregarded, but the outcome is determined by events.
You get an option on a CI play but not on a balk. Because the balk has two outcomes many times they get confused, even by umpires.

Basically, the balk is disregarded if
1) the pitcher makes a wild pickoff throw, and all runners reach at least their advance base
2) there is a pitch and the batter acquires 1st and all other runners reach at least their advance base.
Otherwise the balk is enforced.

Example: R1, R3, a balk but the pitcher pitches and hits the batter.
Ruling: Since the R3 was not forced by the hit batsman, the balk is enforced. R3 scores, R1 to 2nd, the pitch is nullified and the batter remains at bat with the count he had before the balk.

Hmmmmm, why kill it? What's a "wild throw?"

Wait, before you kill me..I'm just thinking; and: my youngest just graced us with our third grandson, strapping young lad too I might add..any rate I'm needed around here so go easy.

I agree 100% on the winners ruling, never gave it much thought..

But then, I get to thinking..

Same play with a wild throw skipping out to right, R1 laying at the bag gets a really late start to 2B.

I wouldn't kill it as soon as F9 picked it up.

But would if F9's throw beat R1 to 2nd and was gloved. But if it skipped on by F6 into left field I'd let R1 continue if the opportunity was there.

OP: What's a wild throw? Does it necessarily mean it gets by F3? Could a "wild throw" be one that pulls F3 off the bag far enough that there's no opportunity for the tag try on R1, especially if R1 was going?

OP, if there was a play on R1, i.e. did he just barely beat the throw with a dive, kill it, or did he break for 2B from the get go and the D had no chance at him? D chose HP for some reason?


In other words why punish the O (maybe)?
Why not let F3 throw one away allowing R1 to gain 3B, or score on an errant throw to CF?
Why not kill it as soon as the catch and imminent play on R1 at 2nd?

I did say I agreed 100% with the winners pick...

Just wondering if I'm doing too much thinking or if J/r and PBUC are doing to much writing?

J/r say's:
"If there is a balk followed by a throw, then related action is allowed until a fielder is able to glove and gain possession of such throw (if the throw is not wild). The defense is not allowed a tag try of, or subsequent throw against (including a rundown) a runner before his advance base."

PBUC say's: On a wild throw.. gains possession and the runners stop trying to advance.

Your're thinking too much or too little.

What is required for a play to stand on a balk? All runners and the batter must advance at least one base.

Where is the batter in the OP? At home. Is he going to advance at least one base? Nope.

So what will happen to the runners? They will be awarded one base on the balk.

So why not kill play?

quote:

Originally posted by Jimmy03:
Your're thinking too much or too little.

What is required for a play to stand on a balk? All runners and the batter must advance at least one base.

Where is the batter in the OP? At home. Is he going to advance at least one base? Nope.

True for a balk/pitch, but the OP was a balk/pickoff throw. Had F1 thrown it away, the ball would stay live even though the batter could not reach 1st base.

I know you knew that.

quote:

Originally posted by dash_riprock:

quote:

Originally posted by Jimmy03:
Your're thinking too much or too little.

What is required for a play to stand on a balk? All runners and the batter must advance at least one base.

Where is the batter in the OP? At home. Is he going to advance at least one base? Nope.

True for a balk/pitch, but the OP was a balk/pickoff throw. Had F1 thrown it away, the ball would stay live even though the batter could not reach 1st base.

I know you knew that.

I was addressing the OP in which the pickoff was gloved.

And in the case of the pick-off being gloved, kill it.

quote:

Originally posted by Jimmy03:

quote:

Originally posted by dash_riprock:

quote:

Originally posted by Jimmy03:
Your're thinking too much or too little.

What is required for a play to stand on a balk? All runners and the batter must advance at least one base.

Where is the batter in the OP? At home. Is he going to advance at least one base? Nope.

True for a balk/pitch, but the OP was a balk/pickoff throw. Had F1 thrown it away, the ball would stay live even though the batter could not reach 1st base.

I know you knew that.

I was addressing the OP in which the pickoff was gloved.

Guess I shoulda started by saying;
What's a "wild throw?"

Climb aboard cause I'm driving the band wagon of
Kill a balk at first opportunity.

But:
OBR say's delayed dead ball. Which means when play is over, nothing more.

APPROVED RULING: balks.. and throws wild to a base, the runner or runers may advance at their own risk.

This statement indicates; their advance base is a gimme, but may risk advancing farther. Precisely why it's not killed when F9 gloves an errant throw down the RF line, runners might be able to get more.

R1 going on first movement, F1 balks and skips one to F3 who makes a spectacular scoop, or a diving stop, it's gloved. But it was wild? Does it have to go beyond F3? If so how far? Can it bounce off F3 towards HP or back towards F1, if so how far?

I really haven't read a definition of wild throw, wild pitch sure, but's in the scorekeepers section.

quote:

Originally posted by jjk:
OBR say's delayed dead ball.

Really? Where?

I was taught at school that there is no such thing as a delayed dead ball in OBR. The ball is either live or dead. It might become dead, it might not.

"Delayed dead ball" is an invention of FED.

quote:

Originally posted by jjk:

R1 going on first movement, F1 balks and skips one to F3 who makes a spectacular scoop, or a diving stop, it's gloved. But it was wild? Does it have to go beyond F3? If so how far? Can it bounce off F3 towards HP or back towards F1, if so how far?

If the pickoff throw (following a balk) is caught, the ball is dead at that moment. If not (wild throw), the ball stays live until runners have stopped trying to advance and a fielder is in possession of the ball in the infield.

DDB is used in the Fed book, not in OBR. The concept of delayed dead ball is absolutely in OBR, just not the phrase. What I'm not sure of is if the DDB phrase is an invention of the internet boards that Fed picked up. I suspect that is exactly what happened, but I can't prove it. The phrases of relaxed and unrelaxed play are not mentioned in OBR but it sure is a taught concept.

The concept of Delayed Dead Ball is absolutely not taught at the Academy and is not taught by PBUC. Some evaluators go so far as to sneer at it. The only OBR umpires I know who use that concept are ones who also work FED.

And, as pointed out at the Academey, this is not an matter of semantics. The term "Delayed Dead Ball" specifically implies that the ball WILL be dead at a point in the future due to the event in question. In OBR that is not assured. The ball is either live or dead with no guarantee of future status, unless one wants to argue that all the ball will become dead, eventually. In that case, the first picth of the game would be a delayed dead ball.

A balk is called. The ball is live. Will it become dead? Maybe, maybe not. If it does, it will be dead. In the meantime, in reamins live.

Batter's interference. Will the ball become dead? Maybe, maybe not. If it does, it will be dead. In the meantime, in reamins live.

Maybe it should be called the Maybe Dead Ball.

quote:

The concept of delayed dead ball is absolutely in OBR, just not the phrase

Very well put, thanks for clarifying.
I didn't mean to imply it was literal nor written.

Though, right here in one of my old relics, no date or cover, it's LL, only 5 US regions on the map.

Not sure if the folks that put it all together worked FED or not, but here's circa early 90's (?), OBR based.

I quote:

8.05 APPROVED RULING: If the pitcher violates a-k in this rule and throws wild to a base, the runner or runners may adavance at their own risk. (Delayed dead ball).

Not sure why the sneering from those on high at the term, less-n their all English majors? Right out the other side of their mouth they say kill it. We all know we can't kill it, it's not alive.

To me it's always meant don't call time.

In most trainings I've heard it, it's usually followed by, so don't kill it yet, let it play out or similar.

So anyway, on the field, how wild would a throw have to be for ya'll to allow the play to continue.

As you say, your reference is LL not OBR,

It is just plain logic. How can you call a ball delayed dead when in fact it may well remain live?

In reality, the place I call my games, a ball is dead or live until something causes its status to change.

It is a matter of symantics. Take the balk/wild throw, you are going to delay killing the ball to see if all runners advance a base. If they do then there is no dead ball because there is no award. Take a BI, you are going to delay to see if the runner is put out. If so then there is no violation. The problem is the OBR says the ball is imediately dead on interference which we know it isn't. If you prefer then call it delayed decision, you delay to see if there is a violation or an award to make.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael S. Taylor:
It is a matter of symantics. Take the balk/wild throw, you are going to delay killing the ball to see if all runners advance a base. If they do then there is no dead ball because there is no award. Take a BI, you are going to delay to see if the runner is put out. If so then there is no violation. The problem is the OBR says the ball is imediately dead on interference which we know it isn't. If you prefer then call it delayed decision, you delay to see if there is a violation or an award to make.

I politely beg to differ. It is not semantics. A case of semantics would be when terms mean the same thing.

"Delayed Dead Ball" explicitly implies that the ball will become dead as the result of the event in question. In OBR that is not necessarily true. Often the ball will not become dead.

As Evans puts it, the ball is dead or it's live. In OBR there in no other status. Words have meaning.

I realize umpires accustomed to FED and LL will not change their usage of the term. I am not leading a a charge against windmills. Rather I am explaining why professional umpires and those who have attended school may frown upon the term. To them, and in reality, it is inaccurate.

Now, I'll put my bat away.

quote:

A case of semantics would be when terms mean the same thing.

A play in which an umpire judges whether to kill it or leave it in play due to; a violation occuring which may or may not be inforced such as on a balk or CI (CO), UI, dependent upon the outcome at the conlusion of the play.

and

Delayed Dead Ball; "mean" the same thing.

That qualifies as semantic in BB lingo.

Much like the following..

Don't believe me, ask Yoga, the old backstop from the big apple.

I never once said Yogi Berra, NY Yankee nor catcher.

Yet because of semantic memory we all knew whom I was implying.

I shot the horse, it looked as if it was suffering..

Happy Super Bowl, I'm pulling for the NFC..

If it doesn't become dead, it could not have been delayed dead.

I can accept logic and the instructions from Evans Academy, or I can accept the practice of FED and LL.

Tough decision.

Call it whatever you want.

Many times the phrase, delayed dead ball situation is used, this is more accurate. Even in Fed where they use the term, the ball doesn't always become dead. The pro schools don't use A,B and C to position the BU but they sure as hell teach those locations. Jim is correct, the ball is either live or dead, but there are situations that depending on completion of play is going to result in a dead ball.
How did you make out at school?

Interestingly, the phrase, "delayed deadball" did not originate in professional baseball. There was no need for it.

Schools, at least the Academy, and PBUC, do not teach or label positions as ABC for what they perceive to be good reason.

At first, many believed, and later confirmed, that labeling these positions so exactly would lead to umpires picking exact spots on the field and "get married to them" disregarding all factors but the base(S) that had runners and simple geography. Many amateur trainers will even march out on the field, point to a spot and and say, "THIS is "B".

The pros prefer to emphasize that positioning is dependent on many factors and no one spot is the best for a single runner on first. Thus, in training, they refer to the base umpire being on the grass to the first base side of the mound and about half way between the rubber and second base. This provides a lot of area for the umpire to select a spot given what he has observed about the pitcher, the runner, the fielder, and the game situation.

Again, as with the amateur misnomer of a delayed deadball, this goes beyond semantics and addresses practice and results.

I went to school to rid myself of old habits and to become the best umpire I could be. I was too old to hope for a contract. It was, by far, the best decision I've made regarding umpiring.

I believe with the increased number of amateur umpires attending schools and professional camps, and bringing their training back home, combined with FED's demonstrated indifference to quality of training, the standard will become pro mechanics and pro philosophy.

Let's summarize.
There are three main sets of rules- NFHS, NCAA, and OBR.
NFHS and NCAA rules explicity use the term "delayed dead ball". OBR does not.

In all three rulesets, some infractions trigger one of the following possibilities:
1) Immediate call of time.
2) Possible call of time depending on subsequent events
3) Delayed call of time, with penalties dependent on events subsequent to the infraction.

NFHS and NCAA use "delayed dead ball" to describe situations 2) and 3), even though only 3) is accurately described by the phrase.

So, excepting for umpires attending pro school (especially Evans'), the use of the term delayed dead ball should be fine. The phrase is codified in the the NFHS and NCAA rules, and the circumstances exist in OBR.

quote:

Originally posted by Jimmy03:
Interestingly, the phrase, "delayed deadball" did not originate in professional baseball. There was no need for it.

Schools, at least the Academy, and PBUC, do not teach or label positions as ABC for what they perceive to be good reason.

At first, many believed, and later confirmed, that labeling these positions so exactly would lead to umpires picking exact spots on the field and "get married to them" disregarding all factors but the base(S) that had runners and simple geography. Many amateur trainers will even march out on the field, point to a spot and and say, "THIS is "B".

The pros prefer to emphasize that positioning is dependent on many factors and no one spot is the best for a single runner on first. Thus, in training, they refer to the base umpire being on the grass to the first base side of the mound and about half way between the rubber and second base. This provides a lot of area for the umpire to select a spot given what he has observed about the pitcher, the runner, the fielder, and the game situation.

Again, as with the amateur misnomer of a delayed deadball, this goes beyond semantics and addresses practice and results.

I went to school to rid myself of old habits and to become the best umpire I could be. I was too old to hope for a contract. It was, by far, the best decision I've made regarding umpiring.

I believe with the increased number of amateur umpires attending schools and professional camps, and bringing their training back home, combined with FED's demonstrated indifference to quality of training, the standard will become pro mechanics and pro philosophy.

When I instruct I stress that A,B and C are not distinct spots but areas. I care more about why they are there as opposed exactly where they are. I explain the area they should be in,how the working area works, then what situations dictate where to be.

Great thread, but somewhere in all this, one of you became a grandfather.

Congratulations on that!

quote:

Originally posted by JMoff:
Great thread, but somewhere in all this, one of you became a grandfather.

Congratulations on that!

Thank you, it's my third, though being my sons first, does make the lil fellar kinda special.


And I believe Bulldog got the first correct response. Though lost a point on the "option question".
Score the run, R2, 2-2 count.

The OP doesn't tell us how wild the throw was, but must have been wild enough, to allow R3 to score.

Not the ideal situation for a double steal (2 outs), or a squeeze play (2 strikes), only other scenario where F3 would throw home, would be, R1 going on first movement, F1 balks and throws wild to F3 who see's no chance at R1 so throws home.

Umpires should have: allowed play to continue, once R1 was nailed at 2B, time, that's a balk, award 2B.

quote:

Originally posted by jjk:



And I believe Bulldog got the first correct response. Though lost a point on the "option question".
Score the run, R2, 2-2 count.

The OP doesn't tell us how wild the throw was, but must have been wild enough, to allow R3 to score.

Not the ideal situation for a double steal (2 outs), or a squeeze play (2 strikes), only other scenario where F3 would throw home, would be, R1 going on first movement, F1 balks and throws wild to F3 who see's no chance at R1 so throws home.

Umpires should have: allowed play to continue, once R1 was nailed at 2B, time, that's a balk, award 2B.

Assuming a wild throw is where this thread went wrong. The throw was not wild. That's why there is no reference to that in the OP. Being the author of the OP I am confused by all the talk of a wild throw.

F3 gloved the throw. That's why the umpires should have called time and enforced the balk.

Might be a dumb question and if it is I apologize but here it goes. Why not for all rule codes just kill all balks and move runners up one base? Seems like it would simplify everything and keep the flow of the game moving. It seems like a situation like this you have a pick and the throw nails him at 2B then you have to now kill it, enforce it and then explain it. If you call the balk as soon as it happens then it's pretty self-explantory as to what happens. Only have to maybe do is say what the pitcher did to cause the balk which is usually pretty quick.

Just seems like a lot of stuff going on when it could be so much more simple.

Once upon a time that was the rule in OBR and if I'm not mistaken it was the opposite in FED but that predates me. The idea for not calling it imediately is which would you rather have, a bases loaded balk or a bases loaded homerun.

quote:

Originally posted by coach2709:
Might be a dumb question and if it is I apologize but here it goes. Why not for all rule codes just kill all balks and move runners up one base? Seems like it would simplify everything and keep the flow of the game moving. It seems like a situation like this you have a pick and the throw nails him at 2B then you have to now kill it, enforce it and then explain it. If you call the balk as soon as it happens then it's pretty self-explantory as to what happens. Only have to maybe do is say what the pitcher did to cause the balk which is usually pretty quick.

Just seems like a lot of stuff going on when it could be so much more simple.

The rule was change in OBR to it's current form because it was decided that it was unfair to punish the offense for a mistake by the defense. Too many times, when the pitcher followed through with the pitch, a single, double or even HR would be negated due to the pitcher screwing up.

The pro rule today is evenly balanced. FED should follow it, IMO. I've been screamed at by angry dads too many times for "taking a hit, homer (choose one) away from my kid!"

quote:

Originally posted by Jimmy03:

The pro rule today is evenly balanced. FED should follow it, IMO.

I don't know why they don't. It's not a safety issue at all. Easier to umpire perhaps? A lot of baseball can happen following a balk. R3 might even advance to 3rd base!

They took all the fun out of it when they killed the play on a balk. It can get crazy fun after a balk call in real baseball

quote:

Originally posted by dash_riprock:
R3 might even advance to 3rd base!

Only in Fed can R3 advance to 3B.