Andrew Oliver / Agents / NCAA ????

Ok, I just thought it was interesting in that advisor/agent talk has been a great topic around here. . .but maybe noone likes me

I was really hoping that some of you "old timers" might express an interest as this topic has "scared" many families I know personally from going ahead and retaining an agent/advisor. .

Maybe my question should have been. . .Is it really a safe call to retain an agent/advisor (based on your status amateur/pro of course)??

I believe if I understand correctly, one of the items being discussed that supposedly broke the rules, was that his advisor was present at an inhome meeting while the big league team was there also?

This is so complicated ~ Argh!

The issue was this...

The Baratta's assured Oliver and his parents when the Baratta's were seeking to be Olivers advisors (Senior HS), that they knew all the NCAA rules and would be very careful not to break any. When Oliver was drafted by the Twins, the Baratta's sat in on a meeting with Oliver and the Twins where an offer was made by the Twins. This is an NCAA violation.

Oliver was suspended by the NCAA just prior to last years regionals. The NCAA has just ruled that Olivers suspension will last one year.

Kendall Rogers Article on Andy Oliver

This case is a great example of how the NCAA is a bunch of bungling academic hacks that institute rules that have no basis in the health of amateur sports or the best interest of athletes or the member institutions. And, in order for the member institution to not draw the ire of the NCAA, they don't stand up to the idiocy. Situations like Olivers, where some obscure rule violation occured, that really has no merit, occur quite often. Most NCAA member institutions have a policy of keeping their head down, rather than standing up for what is right.

Another great example of sports not creating character, but revealing character. Smart enough to know what's wrong, but cowardly enough not to do anything about it.

CPLZ - Thanks so much for the post, I had not seen Kendals article so thanks for including that as well. . .

I just think this is another great example of why communities like this are SO important to players/parents/coaches etc. . . the information in the great game of baseball is SO complicated sometimes that it seems like I need a degree in baseball!

This community offeres up such great advice and I for one am thankful to have each of your opinions on the many different subject matters.. .

It seems the retaining of an advisor/agent is a very touchy subject, however, my naive thinking says folks retain an attorneys, CPAs, and other professionals for direction in our own lives, why wouldn't it be prudent for us (if applicable) to retain a professional for one of the biggest decisions in our players's lives?

It just seems like if Andy needed an advisor present while the offer was being made that it was a decision to protect his own interests (assuming this happened while he was still a HS player and had amateur statis)

Prefacing, I am not an NCAA rules specialist but I was under the belief that. . Football & Basketball Players have their advisors/agents present during their negotations prior to their professional signings (ie while still in HS) without breaking any NCAA rules. . ?

Which direction/ or whom should folks turn to with assistance on choosing (if/not) they want an advisor, and of course one that WILL know the rules enforced or sactioned by the NCAA big brother?

I also would be interested in a list of quality advisors/agents that folks have actually used and would recommend, is there a list somewhere I have missed within the forums? PM's would also be ok if you feel better not making your choices public, and I promise even tho I am new to posting here, I have very good ethics and would not share if asked.

I really am glad I changed my status from lurking to posting, and hopefully someday I will be more of a contributor and less of a question pain in the tush

gobig,

Welcome to the site, glad to have you.

There is a "find" tab at the top of the post. If you search agent and then advisor, you'll find a wealth of information, including a very recent thread. Make sure you uncheck the box that says "search current forum only".

Thank you again, I do feel a bit embarrassed, as I had done just what you suggest, with the exception of unchecking the box. . . what a wealth I did find!

Thanks for the warm welcome as well, I must admit I am still a bit nervous at times, but everyone has really been nice & very helpful!

Andrew Oliver was a talented High School lefty from Ohio. The Twins drafted him in the 15 to 20 round range and didn't plan on signing him. He played for Midland in the summer and by July he was one of the top lefties in the country.

I remember calling Mike Radcliff who was the Twins scouting director after watching Oliver pitch at the WWBA in Georgia. He was absolutely lights out and I knew the Twins had him. I told Mike they should make a serious run at him. They went to see his next outing and did make a serious but unsuccessful run at him. He went to Oklahoma State honoring his commitment to play college ball where he once again became a hot commodity.

A few years ago another lefty Jeremy Sowers ran into a similiar problem. I believe he was suspended for something like one game. Sowers was actually a first round pick that turned down a small fortune to join the NCAA and attend Vanderbilt.

I don't know all the particulars in this case, but this is the kind of BS that can cause kids to stay clear of college and specifically the NCAA. Another case of the student/athlete being punished even though he turned down pro ball (reported $400,000) to become an NCAA Athlete! I don't think anything was his fault and he is the only one being punished, near as I can tell. I hope he sues everyone involved and wins! Why doesn't the NCAA concentrate on something other than punishing athletes who have done nothing more than join the NCAA. Had Oliver or Sowers signed a pro contract instead of attending college we wouldn't have heard a peep from anyone.

Oliver did sue the advisors and they settled out of court with the case sealed.

The NCAA is so twisted, that it went after Oliver harder than Sowers because Oliver then sued the advisors bringing the case more into the forefront and spotlight.

We see athletes and egos everyday. Can you imagine the egos on these egghead academics that blindly submit to NCAA will? And for the ones that do see through it, the lack of stones to stand up and do the right thing? If it were a goverment, the analogy would be Stalin's Russia.

You see what happeded to former Mississippi State Coach Ron Polk when he said his peace with the NCAA. The man gave his life to college baseball. Therefore, I don't blame the college coaches because the NCAA is the almighty. Unfortunately, it will have to be a player who sues the NCAA and who has deeper pockets to see the case finalized. Remember the "Golden Rule"? The one with the most gold makes the rule!

I don't know the rules, I don't know the story but as far as we were told son could not accept or discuss any offer until his playing season was ended. After he got drafted the scout called to congratulate him and that was it until he was done. He knew that the pick was worth x amount of dollars, that was it. I think that is where the hiccup was. Agents try to negotiate all the time for their players and many go back to school or begin school without a hitch. Although this is against NCAA rules, the NCAA does look the other way. But sitting down to negotaite before your season ended, no way, at that point the player belonged to the NCAA and if word got out after the game, it could have determined another outcome for who went to Omaha, that would have been a mess.
For those who decide to turn pro, DO NOT sign with an agent until after a physical and you are rostered on the team, most good agents don't expect any payment until your bonus arrives, then you can sign an agreement.
As far as what the rules are, the player can ask the college coach for the proper procedure, if they don't know they will send them to compliance. Ny understanding is that once your season has ended (for HS and college player), you are neither here nor there until you set foot back in the classroom come fall.
Lesson here is don't agree to anything until your playing season has ended.
Those agents should have known better, and so should the team as well as the player at that point. Once he was suspended he should have signed.
I personally do not feel the NCAA is being the bad guy, the rules are pretty clear.
JMO.

There is a case where a player did not answer the NCAA amateur athlete questionnaire appropriately about talking to an advisor. The advisor’s advise was to go to college and he was not drafted at all and he had to sit out half of his freshman year.

TPM,

If the kids know all of this stuff then why do they need an advisor?

I disagree with an agent being able to negotiate once the season is over. It is my understanding that once that agent starts negotiating the player needs to sign or be in violation of the NCAA rules.

Also this has to do with something that happened before he ever became an NCAA athlete. He was drafted out of high school. He only this year becomes eligible for the draft again. So these "negotiations" happened when he was drafted as a high school senior and before he attended college. Jeremy Sowers situation was also out of high school. Yes, that is illegal even though his high school season had ended. Most kids and parents would not know this, but agents sure should! It still goes on all the time without it being reported.

quote:

There is a case where a player did not answer the NCAA amateur athlete questionnaire appropriately about talking to an advisor. The advisor’s advise was to go to college and he was not drafted at all and he had to sit out half of his freshman year.

Wow! I am really confused and gobig son still has this questionaire to finish upon completion of his senior year! The idea of my (the parent he looks up to for guidance) ignorance landing him punishment makes me sway! Also, let me insert this information need is not just one of financial gain, but of contract stipulations, player development roles, health & wellbeing of my kid. . . many of us really know very little about this very large complex animal (oh I mean game)!

quote:

I disagree with an agent being able to negotiate once the season is over. It is my understanding that once that agent starts negotiating the player needs to sign or be in violation of the NCAA rules.

In essence (just clarifying my understanding) you disagree, thus advocating that "advisors" should be completely against the rules for HS kids (assuming end of season of course), and all negotiations should be just parents/player & MLB team? Is that correct?

quote:

Most kids and parents would not know this, but agents sure should!It still goes on all the time without it being reported.

Holy Reindeer Santa! Thank goodness for offseason days and for the HSBBW and everones' awesome posts! I do not feel near as bad about myself. . . spending my free time trying to learn and read and understand. . . because things like this are exactly what parents NEED to know IMO.

I do believe that many parents are genuine & hands on & are REALLY trying to do the best thing for their kid,(agreed some pushing the issue due to financial gain - this is the land of opportunity you know still I believe most parents are good by nature and are struggling to listen, learn, and direct said sons the best they can in the right path!

Side Note: PG, I have really enjoyed your topic posts recently and I hope you continue as your thoughts are well spoken and "real" and very informative!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by PGStaff:
TPM,

If the kids know all of this stuff then why do they need an advisor?

IMO,unless a high draft pick out of HS, they don't. My son got advice in hS, but did not have an advisor come draft time. He wasn't drafted.

I disagree with an agent being able to negotiate once the season is over. It is my understanding that once that agent starts negotiating the player needs to sign or be in violation of the NCAA rules.
PG, I meant the player negotiating before the season is over. I didn't realize this happened in HS, why did teh suspension take so long? Yes, it is in violation for an agent to negotiate for you and retain your NCAA eligibility, make sure that once that process begins you are not going to step foot on a college campus.

Also this has to do with something that happened before he ever became an NCAA athlete. He was drafted out of high school. He only this year becomes eligible for the draft again. So these "negotiations" happened when he was drafted as a high school senior and before he attended college. Jeremy Sowers situation was also out of high school. Yes, that is illegal even though his high school season had ended. Most kids and parents would not know this, but agents sure should! It still goes on all the time without it being reported.

As stated above, I did not realize that this happened as a senior out of HS, my bad. Parents and players don't always know this, the advisor/agent should shame himself.

I know I blame NCAA for taking away a sure win from Oklahoma State that day

Homerun04 - It is my understanding that talking with an agent, even getting advise about college or pro is not a violation (if nothing is signed). The agent cannot negotiate or market the player but can advise without penalty. Am I wrong in my understanding of the rule??

quote:

Originally posted by Clint Taylor:
Homerun04 - It is my understanding that talking with an agent, even getting advise about college or pro is not a violation (if nothing is signed). The agent cannot negotiate or market the player but can advise without penalty. Am I wrong in my understanding of the rule??

Here is the best information I have seen published on the subject. It has plenty of examples and seems to answer all the questions:
http://www.hsbaseballweb.com/ncaa_agents_advisors.htm

http://collegebaseball.rivals.com/showmsg.asp?fid=2308&...980&SID=1169&Style=2

quote:

Re: Oklahoma State's Oliver suspended for '09 for now (11:30 PM UPDATE) Reply

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I've heard nothing further but Kendall's scoop(with credit to Kendall) is being talked about in other forums such as the following:

http://hsbaseballweb.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/4686003481/m/5961050013



Posted on 12/11 2:34 PM | IP: Logged

It appears this story is being kept very quiet to the national media at this point, I have found very little for updates, except I did hear a local sports announcer speak briefly of it, and the above post from Rivals seems to be the most up-to-date.

I would be interested to hear from someone in a real "compliance" role about this subject, any suggestions?

Oops edited to add, they are actually linking to us. . .but there are many interesting posts on the above link from Rivals members including an x-OSU baseball player.

quote:

Originally posted by Clint Taylor:
Homerun04 - It is my understanding that talking with an agent, even getting advise about college or pro is not a violation (if nothing is signed). The agent cannot negotiate or market the player but can advise without penalty. Am I wrong in my understanding of the rule??

The key is no verbal or written agreements....

TPM and PG, just to clarify, I think you CAN use the advisor once you're done playing that season's games, as long you know you're done playing in the NCAA forever. Even if the season has ended (after JR year), if you cross the line, you just gave away your SR year eligibility and thus, you really have given away whatever negotiating leverage you may have had.

Nice Catch 22. You use an advisor to help you negotiate, but using an advisor forfeits what little leverage you have.

I wonder sometimes if MLB somehow influences these NCAA rules, since they seem mainly geared towards assuring that when the pro team and the player sit down at the table, the team holds all the cards.

I think it's somewhat of a misnomer that the negotiation with an MLB team happens all at once in one place with a back and forth. The key to remaining eligible is to go to the meeting, hear the offer, and then take it to the adivsor for counsel, and return to either accept, decline, or counter offer on your own.

You are entitled to seek advice from anyone, just not allowed to have them present when direct negotiations or offers are made.

Midlo, you are right though that MLB has the deck stacked in its favor, it's just that the player needs to have a strategy and plan mapped out with specifics to stay out of NCAA hot water.

quote:

I disagree with an agent being able to negotiate once the season is over. It is my understanding that once that agent starts negotiating the player needs to sign or be in violation of the NCAA rules.

That is what I was trying to say above. I should have added agent/advisor. You could say that once the advisor starts negotiating (directly) he has become the agent.

quote:

Originally posted by CPLZ:
I think it's somewhat of a misnomer that the negotiation with an MLB team happens all at once in one place with a back and forth. The key to remaining eligible is to go to the meeting, hear the offer, and then take it to the adivsor for counsel, and return to either accept, decline, or counter offer on your own.

You are entitled to seek advice from anyone, just not allowed to have them present when direct negotiations or offers are made.

Outstanding advice!!

This is not rocket science imho. Yes, there are things parents/players need to be made aware of and in some cases avoid doing.

IMHO, Andrew Oliver was screwed over by some very unscrupulous lawyers/agents. They ought to be disbarred imho. Look, I believe there is always some tacit agreement between player and advisor that the advisor will someday become the agent. Advisors are not charities the last I checked. On the other hand, if a player decides to switch advisors, that is just the way it is - you win some and you lose some. The way I heard the story, Oliver wanted to change advisors/agents and they got vindictive making it look like they had a prior financial agreement which caused all the harm to Oliver when it became public. Highly unethical.

We have some very reputable people associated with the hsbbweb who can recommend outstanding advisors if parents need them.

IMO one would have to be completely naive to beleive that advisors/agents don't market their players in anyway or act more in a capacity as agents than advisors.
An advisor/agent talking to any scout, GM, etc. at any time about a player is in direct violation of NCAA rules, so is calling the week of draft to see where the player falls on draft boards. So is agreeing if one gets drafted that person can be one's agent. So does announcing that a player won't sign unless he gets so and so. The better and more experienced the agent, the better he knows how to manipulate the system and what will be and what will not be tolerated. Pre draft deals are discussed all of the time with players and their agents, though everyone will deny it to the end.
The rules remain the same for HS players and college players, however, most college players know and have indicated that they will sign, regardless of bonus and most except for top picks accept slot. At that point after the draft, they do not have to be as careful as HS players. College juniors or those seniors needing a few more credits will automatically get what it costs to finish where they began, you do not have to negotitate that except for inflation.

I am not sure of exactly what went down in this case, but seems to me that this can't be the only case where a player sought help from an advisor/agent after the draft. The NCAA is not stupid, something happened bigtime that made them do what they did a few years AFTER the draft. Might just be a case of being vindictive, but I have seen and heard cases where many HS players change advisors while in college. Either way, seems to me the publicity alone will ruin those agents credibility.

FWIW, a parent who posts here called to tell me an agent called to tell them that they could help market the player for the draft. My advice was to stay clear, chances are that player might not get drafted, and could lose eligibility as a freshman in college. Seems to me that advisor/agent did not have players interest in mind, but his own. Most players and their parents are very naive on the HS level about this process, I know that we were.

Be smart. Most ( I say most) HS players or college players do not need advisor/agents before the draft, if the player gets drafted much earlier than anticipated, don't worry the phone will be ringing. And why does a player have to give away part of his bonus to someone who did nothing anyway. If a fee is asked and you are willing to pay it, you want to know what the agent is going to do for that fee, later. His advice before the draft should be free not asked for when he is drafted unless he is going to do something for you. If an advisor/agent believes that you will bring him money someday (not draft day), has MLB players that pay his bills, he doesn't need a later drafted players $$ unless he can provide some additional income for the player by way of card deals and endorsements. My son payed his agent a fee, but has made most of it up in card deal fees and endorsements, equipment and not paying FL state tax living here in FL on his check (had no clue about that either) and has been a valuable resource and help with his injury. He will never pay a fee again until he negotiates a contract with MLB that might be years from now.

An advisor and an agent are not necessarily one and the same---a players Travel Team coach could be his advisor and not be an agent or even an agent to be

BTW, PGJerry will never turn a phone inquiry away. We turned to him on a few occasions, about college choice and about advisors, he was most helpful.

I think some of what I posted here was advice I learned from him.

NCAA and Oliver do not settle with mediation. Court refuses to dismiss Olivers suit against NCAA, trial likely.

Baseball America Article

Kendall Rogers article

The link is to a fantastic Baseball Prospectus article about agents/advisors and NCAA eligibility. Very worth the read


Baseball Prospectus NCAA agents & advisors Do's and Don'ts

New Link for one of the latest updates on Andy Olivers' situation. . . It appears the sagacourt debate continues!

http://www.sportsagentblog.com/2008/12/15/they-still-wont-let-andy-play/

No one needs an advisor, just some free advice like you get here. ***************************************************************X deleted ***************X

Ozone,
You do offer some good advice but the second portion seemed to be "spam" for a recruiting service. I deleted that portion.
Thanks,
Fungo

Ozone,

quote:

No one needs an advisor, just some free advice like you get here.

I do not completely agree with your statement above.

The information (I'd rather call it that than advice) on HSBBW is free and it is often good.

Also, true that many players do not need an advisor.

However, there are players out there who actually benefit greatly from having an advisor. Not message board advice, but advice from someone who does this for a living and is good at it.

I have a negative attitude regarding the whole advisor/agent business. That is because there are so many "bad" agent/advisors out there who are only good at one thing... Selling themselves! That said, there are also some very good advisor/agents who really care and can help players tremendously.

So making a blanket statement that "No one needs an advisor" I would dispute. In fact, I would say that is not very good advice, in spite of it being free and on this website.

The deleted portion of my statement was about getting advice on how to set up your own program.... on how and when to do things. I try to help kids help themselves, the one's that do are usually successful. I consider myself an "advisor" ...and I guess it's too general a statement to say no one needs one. I just meant it's not necessary for success.