Ankiel and HGH

quote:

gunnersmom posted: We live in a funny world where people can smoke tobacco and drink whiskey as much as they want legally. Yet both of those things are known to create premature death in many cases.

Whew, I don't smoke and vodka's not on that list.

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Originally posted by ClevelandDad:
TG - I didn't see any condescending language in infielddad's post. Would appreciate it greatly if you backed off in your tone. Please remember it is a privilege (not a right) to post here and being nice and respectful to others is part of it.

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Originally posted by infielddad:
TG, I pretty much agree with everything you have said other than your view that my suggestion was condescending.

I apologize. My first impression was I was being educated on something I was percieved not to understand. I've understood it's a business since a friend who was signed as a free agent, was released after hitting .337, but breaking his ankle. His rehab cost more than the investment. I was still in college at the time.

I understand it even more since I invested in a group that purchases minor league franchises. While majors and minors are two different types of organizations the investment prospectus was one of the most interesting pieces of baseball information I've ever read. Before any asks, I had to sign a non-disclosure to read it.

Some great stuff by everyone,especially about our kids being better off or making better decisions than us parents.But I still believe it is about the almighty dollar for a lot of'em, owners, managers,players, chemists.......

Maybe more of the players could be like Giambi *lol*
and just admit it they did it and all will be well?!!

Now Ankiel claims that the prescription was as a result of his TJ surgery. I have never heard of that before and was not prescribed in my son's case. Anybody out there had HGH prescribed after surgery specifically TJ?

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Originally posted by 2Diamonds:
chemists.......

That's good and funny 2Diamonds!

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Originally posted by deldad:
I have never heard of that before and was not prescribed in my son's case. Anybody out there had HGH prescribed after surgery specifically TJ?

Nope! The doctor was also mighty careful to not prescribe more of the addictive oxycodone than was necessary....Advil was supposed to work just fine--if you took enough of them!

When son sprained ankle this summer and in extreme pain, he was given aleve.
Given a cortisone shot for his tendinitous and sent to rehab and put on an RX of anti inflammatories a little bit stronger than aleve.

No pain medication.

I am not in anyone's corner, but at the time he alegedly took this, was during the peak period of the steroid era with no testing in the minor leagues for it. If he wasn't such a success story, no one would have noticed.

Just like Bonds, claims of ignorance is/are bliss. Athletes are the first to ask what is going into or onto their bodies, and why.

Bottom line these days to young players, keep your nose clean, you never know when your star will shine and something will come back to haunt you.

It is kind of interesting how some of us want to believe that Rick Ankiel is innocent or had a very good reason for doing something. We are all enamoured by his story book comeback and want him to do well.

Yet many of us want to hang other players that are involved in the investigation.

To me... It kind of speaks about how well liked Barry Bonds is, with or without the steroid investigation.

Could there be a double standard? Wanting to believe the best in one person and the worst in another.

No double standard for me PG.

If you took something and knew you shouldn't, it was wrong, no matter who you are.

I so would love to beleive that no one took anything to help their bodies or enhance their game, I just can't do it. The ones who will suffer in the end during this era are the guys who chose not to take anything.

JMO.

No double standard for me, either. I don't care if it's Bonds, Ankiel, Palmiero..it doesn't matter. Bring all the names out into the light.

Has Ankiel received HGH from any other sources since 2004? One thing for sure, there's no way to tell...MLB doesn't test for HGH. He can be dosing up right now while he's watching it reported on ESPN, and there's no way to prove it.

PG, Double Standard? As reported last night on our CBS affiliate, HGH was prescribed due to an injury and the rehabilitation of that injury. At least that is the official line. Also, on the same news cast, it was stated that law enforcement stated that Ankiel had not done anything illegal. I don't know what law enforcement agency that was.

quote:

Could there be a double standard? Wanting to believe the best in one person and the worst in another.

Guess not then! It had one of these "?"

CoachB25, Have you read much about the doctor who supposedly wrote the prescription? A years worth? Did the good doctor prescribe it for the same reason for Glaus?

Of course, that is if I can believe everything I read or hear from the media.

I was just curious if some people might be a little more protective of one player over another. That's all!

I think you are overall correct PGStaff. While I do believe some people when they say there is no double standard for them I do believe that the average person / fan does have a double standard.

I don't think anyone should be surprised if any player is named. Doesn't matter if it's a big star or some minor league guy trying to hold onto a dream and not have to get a real job. I won't be surprised by anyone's name if they are implicated.

All the coaches and motivational speakers can talk about "it's not whether you win or lose, but how you play the game" all they want to stress that winning is the most important thing but they are wrong. It does come down to wins and losses at all levels. While I think it can be acceptable to view it this way on the professional level; it's a very big mistake to see it this way on the lower levels.

Most college players WILL NOT make it to the minor leagues - therefore it would make sense to stress the how you play more than the wins and losses. But then you get into coaches being fired, boosters to make happy and other things - now it becomes about wins and losses.

Most high school players WILL NOT make it to college as a player - therefore it would make sense to stress how you play more than wins and losses. But some high schools do fire their coaches for losing, players / parents wanting scholarships (college coaches don't watch players on teams that only win 10 games a year) and other things - now it becomes about wins and losses.

Most rec league, babe ruth and other organizations like this players (not talking about elite travel teams) WILL NOT make it to high school as a player - therefore it would make sense to stress how you play more than wins and losses. But some dads are living through their kids, coaches lose perspective of what's important, have to win the "All Star" tournaments and other things - now it's becomes about wins and losses.

What all that means is the use of steroids and other things will find it's way down to college and high school and pre high school. I read somewhere (maybe even on here but not sure) that a dad gave his son steroids so he could be the best at some sport (sorry for not having more information but it's VERY late and I am tired). The worst part is it will never be cleaned up. Testing is a reactive business and basically cannot be proactive. You can't predict what the new drug or masking technique is going to be or come up with some sort of blanket test to get everything. Chemists will come up with something and when it gets tested they will come up with something new and now the testers have to find a new way to check for it. Never get ahead but that is the nature of the beast.

Why is something (in this case HGH) illegal but something a doctor can still prescribe? You want to find a double standard then it doesn't get any bigger than that in my opinion. I realize that you can use HGH for a legitimate medicinal purpose but by allowing this then you open a very large door for this exact situation. Why doesn't the police go after everyone who HAS used HGH in the past?

I guess that is a simplistic approach to viewing the problem but sometimes the simpliest method happens to be the best.

Baseball is going to survive this mess and will thrive. Baseball has went through more "eras" than any other sport and survived. The fans aren't going to do anything to make anyone do something because the average fan doesn't go to a lot of games over the whole season. Their trip to the game might be their only trip and their vacation. They are not going to give up their only trip just to make some point. The fans who go to every game or close to it just make up such a small percentage of the total fan base this cannot be an effective tool.

So I am going to be patient for about 5 more years and start listening to the new debates going on with baseball and still be a fan.

There are likeable players/stories and unlikeable players/stories. Ankeil is in the likeable category -- he came back from being a national baseball punchline to being a serious contributor, and it was a long road. We want to think well of him as a person (not just a ballplayer) so that he is worthy of our admiration.

Should an athlete be aware of the consequences of what he puts in his body? Of course. Although this is not a college-educated player from a strong athletic background who has the rep of testing his blood to see what nutrients he needs. This is a player drafted out of hs, elevated quickly through the system who has a father and brother inside for drug-related charges and who has spent his offseasons with teammates rather than go back to what's left of his family. If a doctor told him HGH would help him heal and hold on to the only job he's prepared for, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised that he took it without a second thought.

We seem to have the need to cut a great deal of slack for players in general, as if the ability to hit a ball or throw a ball well confers character, when actually it only means they can hit a ball or throw a ball well.

It's more pronounced in professional baseball --- maybe by the 'pastoral' and historical nature of the game. We expect them to be involved in their communities and give back --- see the current voting for the Roberto Clemente award. But we've certainly indulged in it here and on the rating sites about hs & college players. Any number of times a young man was cited as 'a fine young man from a good family', stellar student, whatever, as he was drafted high or promoted through the minors. Often this was true. And sometimes, when I've had direct experience with the player, I've wondered who in the heck they were talking about.

Maybe it's not really a double standard, maybe it's only a desire to believe that the player "deserves" their success. Just as here, we believe our sons deserve success.

Stark on Double Standards

Starks article on Double Standards and an interesting discussion of same.

Good post Orlando.

I can understand the thinking of a relatively unknown, hurt player who wants to get better because he only knows of one way to do so, and desperate to get better to make a decent living at this job of baseball.

I can't understand the thinking of intelligent educated known players who have already arrived and made plenty of money to assist in their recovery without illegal drugs and already on their way to the HOF.

while steroid use is or can be illegal.my understanding is hgh is a part of us naturally. and cannot be tested for.it was at one time taken from cadavers.that is why no one ever flunked a test for it because there isn't one, that i've ever heard of. it is something every 45 yr old male wants.and unlike steroids i haven't heard any negative side effects of it either. then again i only went to the ninth grade for two years. but i did stay at a holiday inn express.

FYI, I've held the same argument not only for Ankiel but also for McGuire. If what he was doing at the time was not banned by baseball and if it was not illegal, then I don't understand how that can be held against anyone. We're all up a creek if someday the "powers that be" find something wrong with creatine since just about every athletic kid in America is taking that. I know what some of you are thinking, creatine is fine. Bet that's what some of these other athletes were thinking when what they did was legal however, Walt Jockety quoted those law officials in his remarks about this. (so I'm told.)

Again, and accoring to our CBS affiliate's news program the other night, law enforcement officials stated that Ankiel had done nothing illegal. ...and again, I didn't catch what law officials.

Side effects of HGH are not as definitive as Steroids but some have been identified but not quantified. Joint stress and fluid retention seem to be the most prevalant. Some initial information has led to an increase incidence of cancer. This seems a little logical, if it makes good cells grow it would also increase the production of bad cells such as cancer.

Any drug that needs a doctor to prescribe, is illegal to use or possess without a legitimate medical purpose. The Drug Enforcement Agency licenses, registers and monitors such activity and has the right to investigate an arrest for violation.

As to why law enforcement stated he did nothing illegal, their must be some supporting documentation as to a diagnosis and legitimate reason i.e. the post surgery. Even though the Doctor was a crook, he still was a licensed physician and could prescribe the drugs.

deldad
that makes sense.

I'd feel a bit better about it had it been some other doctor.

Does anyone know if prescribing HGH is common place for post TJ surgery? Did Ankiel return to baseball faster than others who returned from TJ surgery?

What would this board be like right now had it been someone else who received a years worth of HGH from a crooked doctor who is under investigation.

Why didn't the Cardinals team doctor write the prescription?

Sorry, it just seems there's a lot of question marks? Maybe we will get the answers in time.

Guess I'll keep pulling for him in the mean time, but at least some of the luster has faded.

quote:

Originally posted by Tiger Paw Mom:
When son sprained ankle this summer and in extreme pain, he was given aleve.
Given a cortisone shot for his tendinitous and sent to rehab and put on an RX of anti inflammatories a little bit stronger than aleve.

No pain medication.

I am not in anyone's corner, but at the time he alegedly took this, was during the peak period of the steroid era with no testing in the minor leagues for it. If he wasn't such a success story, no one would have noticed.

Just like Bonds, claims of ignorance is/are bliss. Athletes are the first to ask what is going into or onto their bodies, and why.

Bottom line these days to young players, keep your nose clean, you never know when your star will shine and something will come back to haunt you.

This post highlights something I have always found odd about this debate.

Cortisone is a steroid. It has risks and is known to cause harm, both locally and systemically, as well as the good it does. It is used, in this sort of case, to speed recovery/return from injury/prevent loss of playing time etc. So whats the difference, really, other than the pc respectability (and I guess general acceptability) factor between this and a pitcher using a different steroid, more anabolic in nature (tho, again, the differences between steroids are really more matters of degree rather than absolutes) to speed recovery between outings thus reducing injury and increasing playing time etc.

For that matter, aleve and the other "slightly stronger" NSAID's widely used, ALSO speed recovery/decrease time down etc AND have been shown to have significant risks involved in their use.

So whats the difference, really, between a doctor prescribing a steroid (cortisone) shot for tendonitis and a doctor prescribing HGH for an identified condition? The Fact that one is banned now? What if they ban creatine and cortisone shots next year? Does that make all the players that used cortisone shots or creatine retroactively "asterik worthy"?

Just to further muddy the water here lol, what difference does it make whether a player had a "legal prescription" for a specific agent? Legal where? Baseball is international. Many drugs that are legal only by prescription in the US are sold over the counter in many other countries. So would it be OK for a player of Mexican origin to use drug X because its sold legally in Mexico but not OK for an American player to use drug X? How about an American player using the drug, legally, while in Mexico? 2 years ago?

Never heard of creatine shots-- new to me

TrI think you misunderstood Just Me. Creatine was not referred to as a shot, but cortisone was.

quote:

the differences between steroids are really more matters of degree rather than absolutes

Just Me, you are correct in one way. The term "steroid" refers to a chemical structure, and the differences between the chemical structures of different steroids are "matters of degree." But the effect on the body is very different for slight differences in chemical structure. Estrogen, for instance, is a steroid. I don't think your going to find too many athletes shooting up estrogen. Cholesterol is a steroid. So is Vitamin D. Cortisone acts essentially as an anti-inflammatory, and is used very successfully to treat asthma and arthritis in addition to tendonitis and other afflictions. You don't see a lot of asthmatic arthritis sufferers bulking up. Anabolic steroids are different altogether - they are synthetic forms of testosterone, and, as we all know, build muscle.

gotwood

His statement "creatine and cortisone shots"---the nuns who taught me English and Grammar would tell you that the way it is written is that both are shots---I don't interpret I read --

I also think his statement typifies how the general public does not have a full understanding regarding the drugs and supplements in question

I know of many kids with "dwarfism" are prescribed HGH to try and assist them as they mature and it is all legal. Just as marijuana is now legal in a number of states when used by prescription for medical purposes such as combating the severe nausea from Chemo.

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I know of many kids with "dwarfism" are prescribed HGH to try and assist them as they mature and it is all legal. Just as marijuana is now legal in a number of states when used by prescription for medical purposes such as combating the severe nausea from Chemo.

Exactly - and anabolic steroids can be used legitimately, too. AIDS patients and others who are losing muscle mass from disease, people who are born with testosterone deficiencies, etc. Those are the kinds of folks who get legal prescriptions.

You are correct in the first instance TR, but then Just Me reversed the two, making cortisone a shot and creatine not.

It is my opinion that Just Me never intended for the statement to be misleading. Cortisone is a shot, creatine is not.

TR u slay me
Sorry the grammar did not please you. It was late. What did you think of the content of the post as opposed to the form that you found so wanting? Would it make any difference to you if creatine was a shot or a powder or a pill or a cream? Is it ok in a rub on form but not an injection or a pill?

2BMOM: I understand those subtle differences, thankyou. Many steroids actually have a range of effects on the body, often a combination of desired and undesired, targeted and untargeted. A lot of those asthmatic and arthritic sufferers do in fact "bulk up", tho not generally in a desirable way.

My point, tho, is not to nitpick one steroid vs another in terms of relative balance of anabolic, catabolic, minerallocorticoid or glucocorticoid effect.

Rather, its to point out that ALL of these interventions involve the use of something that was not available to every ball player that has ever played the game; they are not "natural", and the use of any of them, including simple over the counter agents is not risk free. They were not available to all previous generations of ball players, they are not now available to all ball players in all locations.

So why is it ok to compare the performances of a pitcher who has access to cortisone injections to his elbow or shoulder to a pitcher who did not have that access BUT not ok to compare Big Mac (who took ?) to Babe Ruth who didnt have access to ? simply due to where he was in the time line?

Why are some non-natural medical or surgical or pharmacologic or nutritional interventions OK and others not OK?

How about comparing the career stats of a pitcher who pitched half of his career AFTER Tommy John surgery to pitchers whose careers ended before the surgery existed? Maybe Bonds should be vilified not because of the unproven belief he has "juiced" but bcause of the fact he continues to play after career extending knee surgery.

Why is it OK to retroactively change the rules and then hold the player responsible for the use of what wasnt a banned substance at the time? Is the Babe going to be subject to an asterik if future research shows that beer consumption increases the ratio of home runs to singles? What if "sociologic shift" just decides that beer is worse than Andro? Does he get an asterik then?

Just me

Do you know what creatine is?

And I am not here to
"SLAY" anyone---I am just tired of uninformed people talking about things they have "depth"in


This is the problem in our country---the internet has made everyone think they are smart because they read the nonsense

I don't think pointing out the difference between estrogen and testosterone is nit picking, but, hey, that's just me.

There's therapeutic medicine, and then there's chemical performance enhancement. I do agree that sometimes it is hard to know where the line is. But if you have to break the law or sneak around to do it, you've probably crossed the line.

I hadn't heard that anyone was getting punished retroactively.

quote:

Originally posted by 2Bmom:
I don't think pointing out the difference between estrogen and testosterone is nit picking, but, hey, that's just me.

There's therapeutic medicine, and then there's chemical performance enhancement. I do agree that sometimes it is hard to know where the line is. But if you have to break the law or sneak around to do it, you've probably crossed the line.

I hadn't heard that anyone was getting punished retroactively.

Thanks for clearing that up for everyone.


Come on folks, let's use some common sense when talking about steroid use.

Again, thanks 2Bmom.

Justme made some good points...many of which I've thought about when the subject of "unnatural" performance enhancement comes up, particularly in the context of the sanctity of the records in the game.

Medical science has advanced over the course of the game's history. Careers that were formerly cut short by injury or illness can now extended indefinitely. Many medical procedures (knee surgery, Tommy John surgery...even Lasik surgery) can improve performance and/or extend a career, and potentially have an impact upon an existing record.

It's an area frought with gray...a moving target. I admit that certain aspects of "performance enhancement" offend my subjective sense of justice/fair play but, for the life of me, I can't come up with an objective solution.

kb2610, Why does'nt the mlb have a much stiffer policy in place.What the mlb does or does'nt do has a affect all the way down to the highschool level.If the mlb turns their head *as selig has done* it is seen all the way down and actions are taken because of it.The mlb still does not care if players use banned ABS, they just don't want them to get caught for the publicity.If the mlb cared, there would be more testing and stiffer penaltys when caught.They would see to it the message went down thru the chains.Mlb has created some of this "moving target" with their "Smoke and Mirrors" approach.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
Just me

Do you know what creatine is?

And I am not here to
"SLAY" anyone---I am just tired of uninformed people talking about things they have "depth"in


This is the problem in our country---the internet has made everyone think they are smart because they read the nonsense

U still slay me. Intentionally or not



You dont want to address the point I raised fair enough; why bother posting the other **** then?

Im not sure what u mean by "do I know what creatine is". Do you want the chemical structure, the trade name, a source or what?

justme


You are the one who posted it was an injection not me---learn how to post please--as I say the good Nuns taught me well how to read and understand grammar and even at the age of 65 it is still with me.


"nuff said--

quote:

Originally posted by Just Me:

Why is it OK to retroactively change the rules and then hold the player responsible for the use of what wasnt a banned substance at the time?

Huh? Sounds like a major diversion to me.

What rules are you speaking of? Baseball rules? LOL

Forget about the baseball rules.

What most of these players did was against the law.

Abiding by the law is important in most civilized societies.

What bother's me more then Selig, Mlb, the Players , Owner's.
Is the Fact that the MLBPlayers Union, Has not protected there rank and file.
The Union's job is not only to negotiate in good faith a collective bargaining agreement.
But also to protect there Players/Worker's right to a Fair and Equaltible work place.
If some worker's are allowed to get away with advancing themselve's thru the Ranks by useing performance enhancing drug's.
It's the Union's Job and there Charter to protect all the worker's by either Fineing the Individuals, and are Termination from the union.
Meaning no worky here no more.
There job is to make sure it's a Fair and Equiltible work place.
There dropping the ball as far as im concerned.
Protecting all worker's right's, Including the players trying to play by the rules.
JMHO
EH

quote:

Originally posted by theEH:
What bother's me more then than Selig, Mlb, the Players , Owner's.
Is the Fact that the MLBPlayers Union, Has not protected there rank and file.
The Union's job is not only to negotiate in good faith a collective bargaining agreement.
But also to protect there Players/Worker's right to a Fair and Equaltible Equitable work place.
If some worker's workers are allowed to get away with advancing themselve's themselves thru the Ranks by useing using performance enhancing drug's.
It's the Union's Job and there their Charter to protect all the worker's by either Fineing fining the Individuals, and are Termination from the union.
Meaning no worky here no more.
There Their job is to make sure it's a Fair and Equiltible Equitable work place.
There They're dropping the ball as far as im I'm concerned.
Protecting all worker's right's rights, Including the players trying to play by the rules.
JMHO
EH

EH, are you trying to give TRhit a heart attack? I am not about to address your sentence structure and thought flow.

Watch it!!!

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
justme


You are the one who posted it was an injection not me---learn how to post please--as I say the good Nuns taught me well how to read and understand grammar and even at the age of 65 it is still with me.


"nuff said--

TR is it any different if you inject an agent instead of taking it orally? If its absorbed thru the skin? The specific agent and/or method of delivery really isnt germane to the point I was making.

Learn to post? LOL conceited a little??