Another generation of pitchers won't own the inside

I only see it as an infraction if the pitcher does it as a purpose pitch. That's a lot different than pitching to the inside corner.

Not pitching inside is due to too many young pitchers, who have yet to learn full control, being afraid to hurt someone. The problem is, the way I saw it when son was growing up, that the batters weren't good enough to know when to move out of the way. You won't find many HS players in elite tavel ball getting hurt, they know when to move out of the way and when to take one for the team.

on the other side of this rule. the batter must make an effort to get out of the way of a pitch. does one override the other? how do you enforce those rules?

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:
I only see it as an infraction if the pitcher does it as a purpose pitch. That's a lot different than pitching to the inside corner.

Not pitching inside is due to too many young pitchers, who have yet to learn full control, being afraid to hurt someone.

I always viewed the younger pitchers as being told to keep the ball away for 2 reasons. First being that with the aluminum bat, mistakes made inside will go a long way being hit off of the handle. Secondly, a majority of young hitters tend to try to pull everything, so it is prudent to pitch outside. I personally feel that pitchers were being shortchanged in learning how to pitch by coaches constantly calling for the ball away. When I watch college ball, I always feel like the catchers will have to adjust their calling when they go to higher levels. It is for just that reason. Too dangerous to pitch inside to aluminum.

That being said, the rule itself, definitely gives the batter an advantage. The brush back (knockdown)pitch has always been a part of baseball. It is clear from the rules, as written today, that the game is being tailored to increase run production to accommodate a larger fan base that has a need for more action. jmo

The pitchers will probably still get just a warning first. Same as always when it is viewed by Blue that the pitch was intentionally thrown at the batter.

I guess if warnings come early and ejections start happening more often then bullpens better be ready much earlier!

What are we supposed to do about the kid who, like Barry Bonds, hangs over the plate so that half the strike zone is taken away?

When is anyone going to do anything to stop that from happening?

Don't the rules say that a batter hit with a pitch in the strike zone its a strike not a hits batsmen

quote:

Originally posted by njbb:
Don't the rules say that a batter hit with a pitch in the strike zone its a strike not a hits batsmen

You are correct. However, it is seldom called. What galls me is when the hitter either doesn't move, or dips into it and the ump ignores it. Makes me a crazy person.

quote:

Originally posted by BigHIt15:
What galls me is when the hitter either doesn't move, or dips into it and the ump ignores it. Makes me a crazy person.

As a leadoff or #2 hitter, my son has leaned into so many strikes for a HBP I've lost count. He's never been called on it even though coaches scream about it. I've only seen two hitters ever called on it. He leans in, turns away and leans back less than he leaned in. It always fools the umpires. Last summer in 16U he got a little more selective on what he's allowing to hit him. Velocity hurts!

Pitching is an art when you learn the correct way. The game is not made up of individual pitches, it is it is an accumulation or sequence of pitches that determine how a pitcher works to a batter. That inside pitch may not be have it's full impact until the next AB when that batter might be expecting the same, and then gets something different.

Maybe the pitcher should just be replaced with a machine so to eliminate the "grey" areas. At the same time maybe in order to give the RH batters a chance they should run bases clockwise.

quote:

Originally posted by Bighit15:

What galls me is when the hitter either doesn't move, or dips into it and the ump ignores it. Makes me a crazy person.

Me too.

Interesting topic----

Who decides if the pitch was on purpose thrown too far inside or was an "inside" pitch that got to close?

Coaches do not teach batters how to get out of the way of a pitch---perhaps they do not know how too

My son was a "hitter" and I do not remember him getting hit by too many pitches if any. If they hit him they would pay with the next at bat

What is all this PC nonsense-- a rule about throwing a pitch intentionally too close to the batter---the umpires have enough problems with rules, how can they handle this ?

Umpires will have to decide. I do not think many (I hope) will want to walk this fine line.


As far as bighit15 comment:
Separate "not moves" and "dips into" Two different animals. I agree players should not "dip" or "lean" into pitches and be awarded firstbase.

However, as a hitter I am standing in the batter box and a pitchers throw a ball into the area designated for me to stand, and because I don't move, as a hitter it is my fault.

I cannot see anyone frustration on not awarding a hitter a hit by pitch in this case. Your pitcher missed his target by 2 to 3 feet and the hitter should be punished for not being able to decide a course of action. The hitter mistakes a "slipped pitch" by the pitcher to be a curve ball, and waits for the break (that does not occur) and the pitch hits him. s

4 ball that are not in the strike zone the hitter goes to first on a base on balls. The pitcher misses the strike zone so bad he hits the batter, the hitter should go the first base. I can't see the hitter should be responsible for the in- efficiency of the pitcher.

True hitters don't purposely get HBP. There are some cases, when you need to make things happen and get a base runner on. IMO. But some teams do play that kind of baseball and I don't find it challenging.

I remember few years back, very good hitter from a top D1 program struggling and his BA falling, every at bat he got hit. The umpire finally gave him a warning.

This rule has been in play for a long time. All they did was switch one word. It will have zero impact on hs baseball.

Pitchers need to throw on the inner half more. Hitters struggle to stay inside the baseball and foul it off or roll over it a lot more than you think. If you are someone with any type of velo you will get people out by throwing inside. If you throw slow you will get positive results in as well. Just have to pick your spots carefully. Of my starting 9 ast year, I would of thrown inside on 7 out of 9 kids in our lineup. I would of had success.

The one the makes me the most upset is watching kids throw on the outer half to bigger kids. Generally, in high school big kids want the ball on the outer half, they want to get their hands extended. This is the pitch they handle with much ease. We live by hard in soft away. You will give up a coupl snorts. Good pitchers weork around snorts. Just my 2 cents

I'm with Pastime in that nothing is going to change. The good umps will continue ruling how they have always ruled and bad umps will still mess this up and most of the other rules they mess up. I'm just glad there are more good umps than bad one.

quote:

Originally posted by thirdsacker66:
Umpires will have to decide. I do not think many (I hope) will want to walk this fine line.


As far as bighit15 comment:
Separate "not moves" and "dips into" Two different animals. I agree players should not "dip" or "lean" into pitches and be awarded firstbase.

However, as a hitter I am standing in the batter box and a pitchers throw a ball into the area designated for me to stand, and because I don't move, as a hitter it is my fault.

I cannot see anyone frustration on not awarding a hitter a hit by pitch in this case. Your pitcher missed his target by 2 to 3 feet and the hitter should be punished for not being able to decide a course of action. The hitter mistakes a "slipped pitch" by the pitcher to be a curve ball, and waits for the break (that does not occur) and the pitch hits him. s

4 ball that are not in the strike zone the hitter goes to first on a base on balls. The pitcher misses the strike zone so bad he hits the batter, the hitter should go the first base. I can't see the hitter should be responsible for the in- efficiency of the pitcher.

I see your point. In most cases if the pitcher misses badly the ump will ignore the lack of movement. The only problem is the little rule that allows the umpire to not award the base if the hitter makes no attempt to move. My problem is the rule being ignored when the hitter blatantly has time to move and makes no attempt to move. I don't write the rules. I just think they ought to be followed.

I did see in the CWS either last year or the previous year, a hitter being not awarded for a clear ball that he made not attempt to get out of the way of.

It clearly is 2 separate things. Not moving on a ball vs. dipping into it. Clearly the rules state their either can be called if in the judgment of the official it was blatant. Someone feel free to correct me if I have misstated the rules. It is my understanding of the rules. It doesn't mean I am right.

A hitter does not have to move out of the way of a pitch. he just can not make an effort to to get hit by a pitch.

I think that a batter has to stay in to avoid bailing on a CB. I have noticed that most UMPs make judgement calls based on the pitch. What bothers me is when a batter gets a base when the batter gets brushed on the **** sleeve which is out over the strike zone. Pitches that are clearly too far out of the zone are not an issue. I don't think the batter should bail in those instances.

quote:

tpm quote:
True hitters don't purposely get HBP.

Define "purposely"? I don't think it's the same definition as mine.

When the best hitters fail 70% of the time, while they all may not lean into pitches, the majority seldom make an effort, or make just a token effort so not to get hit square, regardless of the situation, unless head high.

When MLB GM's like Billy Beane use OBP as a measure for grading a players productivity, 15-20 HBP a year can make a significant difference in a contract year. A welt here and there can be the difference between being a utility player and a starter.

IMHO, if you don't get out of the way you are still "purposely" attempting to be hit. Instinct and fear tells you to move, "true grit" hitters will usually hold their ground and take one for the team.

..................................................

quote:

True hitters don't purposely get HBP. There are some cases, when you need to make things happen and get a base runner on. IMO. But some teams do play that kind of baseball and I don't find it challenging.

Have you been paying attention when you watch college baseball? it's been over the top in college ball the past few seasons.

quote:

"true grit" hitters will usually hold their ground and take one for the team.

Then, DON'T RUB IT!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:

quote:

True hitters don't purposely get HBP. There are some cases, when you need to make things happen and get a base runner on. IMO. But some teams do play that kind of baseball and I don't find it challenging.

Have you been paying attention when you watch college baseball? it's been over the top in college ball the past few seasons.

Yup I have, been to a few actually. Lot depends on what type of ball you are watching. I didn't see much of it unless a hitter was struggling or something needed to happen (get a man on base).

I said that though in my first post.

I rarely saw the power hitters get on base by that method.

Here's an example, Buster Posey (NCAA player of the year). In 257 at bats he hit 119 times, walked 57 times and HBP 8, yup HBP 8 times. He didn't have to get hit to get on base.

Hope that makes my point clear.

One player's stats (or even a few) does not negate the discussions last year regarding the number of hitters leaning into pitches. It was mentioned several times on the CWS broadcasts. There was one team last year or the year before with a ridiculous number of HBP's. But this conversation is about NFHS.

quote:

tpm quote:
Here's an example, Buster Posey NCAA player of teh year). In 257 at bats he hit 119 times, walked 57 times and HBP 8, yup HBP 8 times. He didn't have to get hit to get on base.

I don't know if Possey is a good example. When you usually have runners on base and have protection behind you the last thing a pitcher wants to do is put another one on with a free pass. My bet is that if that criteria was not present he would have many more HBP occurrences. Pure numbers without seeing the big picture are many times deceiving.

rz,
While I agree with what you said here is another example.

Mid D1 team, this year not doing so well esrly in the season, one player in less than 20 at bats has been hit 3 times already. Now I do admit he doesn't have teh skills of a first rounder, but appears to me that hitter is either struggling or doesn't know to get out of the way, which by the time you reach college, you should be at that point where you are able to.

I am not talking about the pitcher giving a free pass, but the hitter taking the free ride to get on base. This is my opinion of how I see it, again either the team is down and needs a baserunner or the player is struggling. I don't think that any hitter does himself justice to lean into the pitch to get on base. In the game I had first told you about, that player was expected to be drafted well and high, he got hit by more pitches than any player that year, he got drafted but not where expected. When you see a player mid season with 19-20HBP you know he is struggling.

There are times when it is called for in a game, but my opinion most good hitters don't purposely get HBP, especially when you are facing pitchers every weekend hitting speed at 92+. That's dangerous.

Getting back to the original post, in HS this may be a good rule, to ward off any payback that really isn't necessary in a HS game.

JMO.

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:
I am not talking about the pitcher giving a free pass, but the hitter taking the free ride to get on base.
Same difference, just depends what dugout you're sitting in. The mom of a pitcher will call it a free ride.

This is my opinion of how I see it, again either the team is down and needs a baserunner or the player is struggling. I don't think that any hitter does himself justice to lean into the pitch to get on base.
As I said earlier, leaning into a pitch, and not moving to avoid is the same, both actions indicate the intent to take a base, one guy is just trying harder.

In the game I had first told you about, that player was expected to be drafted well and high, he got hit by more pitches than any player that year, he got drafted but not where expected. When you see a player mid season with 19-20HBP you know he is struggling.
FWIW- the 2008 NCAA leader for being hit by a pitch was 31 in 2008 and #100 was was 15 times. Those numbers are not significant and those at the top probably used that as catalyst for their team to score runs. It's not about a players numbers, but what he can bring to the table for his TEAM.

There are times when it is called for in a game, but my opinion most good hitters don't purposely get HBP, especially when you are facing pitchers every weekend hitting speed at 92+. That's dangerous.
For starters this is not a 92+ world in the eyes of most HS/college players. Also, IMHO, hit at 85 can be as dangerous as 92+.

Getting back to the original post, in HS this may be a good rule, to ward off any payback that really isn't necessary in a HS game.
Maybe they should take their spikes away also

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:
he got hit by more pitches than any player that year, he got drafted but not where expected. When you see a player mid season with 19-20HBP you know he is struggling.

I never stated which year, I never stated which school or player. The player I was referring too faced those type of pitchers.

I am just stating my opinion as why was my last statement commented on like that, why do you have to pick apart everything? For debate? To bait? Or for argument?

The way I see it, very good hitters don't take it for the team, ok maybe once in a while, their job is to hit, not get hit.

I am done now.

quote:

I am just stating my opinion as why was my last statement commented on like that, why do you have to pick apart everything? For debate? To bait? Or for argument?

My bad. I thought this was a board for sharing and debating opinions. I keep on forgetting the class structure.


Trust me that my response would have been the same for any poster.

I'm done....................maybe

The premise of this thread is flawed, as other posters here have said or implied. All three rule codes prohibit intentionally pitching at batters. There's nothing to deter a pitcher form pitching inside.

OBR 8.2(d)
NCAA 9-2(g)
NFHS 6-2-3

Note that it is not necessary for the pitch to hit the batter for it to be considered an intentional act. FED has tried to capture that notion with the "close to" phrase.

Next, if the batter is hit, OBR and NFHS require the batter to have attempted to avoid in order to be awarded first base. The NCAA rules don't require an attempt to avoid if the pitch is in the vertical extension of the batter's box. They have subsequently issued a clarification which shows that if the batter moves into the path of the pitch, first isn't awarded even if the potch is in the batter's box.

Finally, umpires vary widely in how they enforce the letter of the rule, especially in high school. Many will award first any time a batter is hit unless it is abundantly obvious that the batter moved into the pitch. They don't require an attempt to avoid.

Almost no umpire will require an attempt on a good hard fastball.