Another YouTube video

I'm no expert but he looks pretty good to me. Looks like he has good control. It does look like he could follow through a little more with his back leg.

I'd watch out for passing cars though

I am no expert either but he looks like he has a very bright future to me He has a nice athletic body and he has a smooth/easy delivery. I agree with JDsDad - watch out for those cars in the neighborhood

Yeah, cars keep getting in the way of his training! Luckily, he is on a very quiet corner in a residential neighborhood.

I think his poor leg drive may be attributable to his short stride length? Seems like he slows down the leg drive a bit to keep from falling off excessively to his left. What do you think?

Not an expert by any means, but it does look like he could use his lower body more powerfully. Maybe that would mess up what looks like a nice, fluid delivery though.....

First off if he is a freshman he looks to be ahead of the curve. He looks good. Here are a couple observations.
He could get more from his lower half/hips. My suggestion would be really get the hip turned back at the top of delivery and as he starts foward his lead leg need to get lower to the ground and almost scrape the ground with his front foot. It looks like he lifts it up and floats it toward the plate instead of getting momentum/drive started toward home. His shoulders also turn too soon and if he can learn to turn his shoulders after hips he will have much more power. The only other main thing that I saw that I might look at is he gets both his lead arm and throwing arm in a straight position at one point. Try to get him more compact by bending the lead arm and throwing arm. some things are very hard to explain in words. Let me know if you have any other questions.
Coach W

He needs to finish lower on his follow through he is too erect. He looks good otherwise should be a very good pitcher. BTW nice lookng field.

quote:

Originally posted by handyrandy:
Not an expert by any means, but it does look like he could use his lower body more powerfully. Maybe that would mess up what looks like a nice, fluid delivery though.....

Agreed. Before I say anything though, I like the kid's delivery to begin with. Instead of getting to a static balance point, the best pitchers "drift" through the balance point to create momentum going into footplant. Think about walking - do you step, then shift your weight? Of course not. You lean before picking up your foot. Pitching is a lot more natural than people want to think it is! Get that weight going down the hill.

He could stand to delay his shoulder a bit more to generate a bit more velocity, but I have no doubt he will learn that as he goes on.

As for injuries: He should remain free of them, so long as he dedicates himself to conditioning and doesn't have an abnormally large workload. I like that his throwing arm elbow doesn't get above his shoulder, which can cause impingement and future shoulder trouble. I like his follow-through, but it could stand to be a bit farther out with a flat-back finish. I like his glove tightening up and how he brings his chest to it - that will really help his control.

There is a lot, and I do mean a lot, to like about his fluid delivery. He leads with his backside, which is great - like I said before, try having him "drift" downhill before he kicks his leg down and out. He hides the ball well and throws from a good arm slot - comes downhill, so when he develops a changeup and breaking ball, it can have good depth to it.

All in all, great for a freshman!

Ever since he worked on his glove tight to his chest a few years ago his control has been great...I didn't know that was one of the factors involved! His velocity hasn't moved much in the past few years, though. I try to avoid the velocity angle with him, and for a freshman, he actually does well to avoid it as well, but you can tell it nags at him, so hopefully these tips will help him.

He does have a pretty good breaking ball, and a nice change (although he will occasionally leave it up in the zone and hitters invariably find it). The last angle (from behind) is 5 fastballs, then 5 curveballs, then one more fastball. I didn't have much room behind him to set-up the camera so it is difficult to see.

I'm most impressed with his ability to find a way to throw without a partner. That shows desire. He looks very good.

To me he is a little stiff and needs to bend at the waist when he finishes. A little too much arm slinging. Should finish with his chest out over the plant leg. Maybe a couple inches more stride would help.
I bet the neighbors love you.

The velocity angle should nag him. This player looks to have decent size and that may make him attractive later on. But as of right now, he has a very long way to go in developing his ability to throw.

His tempo is unbelievably slow. I don't understand the fallacy of the balance point. Look at Billy Wagner. He explodes with a quick movement because he has figured out one way or another that a quicker body equates a quick arm.

Does your son have a goal for his velocity? I'm not sure how improvements can be made without having a specific goal in mind. And once you have found that goal, work your tail off to get there.

This player also looks like he is laboring tremendously to throw with his body. His arm action needs serious refining. He basically pushes the ball and doesn't use his any sort of scapula loading to throw. And because of poor arm action, this player has poor sequencing with his mechanics as far as being able to effectively rotate to throw.

But I think despite these negatives (which is just my opinion and perception) this player has size and age on his side, 2 traits that most people aren't luxurious enough to have.

Keep working.

JK

I think this kid is outstanding. His mechanics are very good for a HS freshman. He generates excellent arm speed and leverage, fairly effortlessly and looks like he can throw it where he wants. Looks like he has a lot of natural ability.

He obviously will get much stronger in upcoming years. I'd like to know who he is. IMO This kid has a chance to be real good! Wouldn't be surprised if he's already experienced a lot of success.

I think some of the things people might be seeing is based on him throwing on a concrete driveway. I would much rather see him throw on a real mound.

I would try finishing a bit better (flat back) but maybe he does on a real mound. There are some who don't finish that way, so it's not absolutely mandatory, but I would give it a chance.

IMO, any changes should be small ones for the time being. If you can, please post video from the mound where we can see him throwing downhill a bit more. My guess is even his finish will look a bit different.

Wow. Does this bring back memories.

Not that I am an expert but for a freshman he seems very balanced & undercontrol with nice arm action. I doubt he is throwing his hardest in the video but as he develops core strength, he has the mechanics in place that will help develop more speed and he will be able to easily repeat his delivery (good command).

I completely agree with PG. I don't not think I would tinker much. Work on getting stronger & always protect the arm! Thanks for sharing.

Emphasis on balance and control usually equates to poor velocity. And it also equates to a lack of explosiveness, which is what this player is suffering from. This player needs to understand that velocity is his key to getting his foot in the door. Not balance, control, or anything else. These terms kill any notion of being able to throw hard.

I would assume he is pitching anywhere from 70-76 mph. And with his current mechanics do you realistically think he can gain 14-20 mph in 3-4 years?

This young man needs to practice throwing (not so much pitching) with a radar gun for feedback and try to incrementally up his reading with an emphasis on arm action and an explosive tempo. To see what good arm action is, compare this clip with any of the traditional hard throwers. You'll see differences if you have an open mind.

I think he looks fine,very good actually for a freshmen. JKB that is about the dumbest critique I have seen, He is obviously not trying to throw at top velocity I think most anyone one this board who has a clue would love to have this frosh in thier program.

quote:

needs to understand that velocity is his key to getting his foot in the door. Not balance, control, or anything else.

Unfortunately JK is correct if velo is your goal and going beyond college.
I have seen so many examples of velo over pitching in my years as a BB guy.
My son who has been taught as many have by pro scouts and who get raves for his flowing mechanics is always over looked if there are 90mph guys around regardless of how well he performs. I personally don't like it but that is pro ball. You don't need the velo to pitch D1 or high level college ball.
My son is trying to change a few things and he says it feels weird. I told him to work on it to see what happens. He is strong and has maxed at 85. To me he should cruise at 90 with his body and strength.

He has been working mainly on tempo and extension over the last couple weeks. He says he has gained some subjective velocity and a bit more movement on his fastball. His accuracy hasn't suffered. He didn't want to post another video until he felt like he moved his tempo to a comfortable level. We'll head out this weekend to a mound and do some recording.

Does anyone have a recommendation for a free program to convert DVD to video (no, one did not come with the camcorder, it only records directly to DVD)?

Copy it from the DVD to the computer. Movie Maker comes with Windos and it is very good. If you don't have it download it from the internet and import the video into that program. It allows you to edit it.

MS MM comes with XP.

http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/downloads/updates/moviemaker2.mspx

Devils advocate here... if throwing hard & losing command because of poor mechanics are your goals I think you will be dissapointed in the end.

My kid had "unbalanced mechanics" as a freshman because he was worried about impressing the high school coaches (which he didn't.) Threw 76-77 as a frosh and ended up with tricep tendonitis which is the only injury he has ever had. He fixed his mechanics and as he got older there were many doubters among D-1's who didn't think he would throw hard enough. He worked on his body strength, focused on using his legs while maintaining balance. He throws 92 now and no one is complaining about him now. He throws with virtually no effort. Ask PG what scouts think of pitchers who throw 90 with little effort. Yes you need velocity but it comes later to many kids. Not too many are going to throw 90 at 17 years old. Please don't get caught up in that, you will just set yourself up for failure IMO.

quote:

Originally posted by nc42dad:
Devils advocate here... if throwing hard & losing command because of poor mechanics are your goals I think you will be dissapointed in the end.

My kid had "unbalanced mechanics" as a freshman because he was worried about impressing the high school coaches (which he didn't.) Threw 76-77 as a frosh and ended up with tricep tendonitis which is the only injury he has ever had. He fixed his mechanics and as he got older there were many doubters among D-1's who didn't think he would throw hard enough. He worked on his body strength, focused on using his legs while maintaining balance. He throws 92 now and no one is complaining about him now. He throws with virtually no effort. Ask PG what scouts think of pitchers who throw 90 with little effort. Yes you need velocity but it comes later to many kids. Not too many are going to throw 90 at 17 years old. Please don't get caught up in that, you will just set yourself up for failure IMO.

I am going on this one for sure. Freshman fall my son was throwing about the same as nc42dad's son and hitting 93 on his way to college 4 years later. Don't get caught up in the velocity thing at this time, work on improving mechanics and a good long toss program and if the velo is there, it will come.

I teach him not to get caught up in the velocity fixation...don't ignore it, just beware of the things that will help you with velocity and work on those...throwing, pitching, core, flexibility, diet, and above all else, mechanics.

Here he is a couple of weeks later, this time from a mound. I got rid of the "Trial Version" watermark, but the little freeware program I used trucated much of the video. It only converted about 30 seconds of an 8 minute video, but you should get the idea. He isn't there yet, but he doesn't expect to throw the baseball for 2 weeks and make huge progress. Took the gun out during this outing, and he cruised 70-71, and hit 74 a few times.

2 weeks later

He looks very smooth. I would not try to change a whole lot.

Is he on any kind of conditioning program?

There are a lot of programs out there that are very good. When my two boys were freshman they thought throwing hard was about "their arm." What they failed to realize it is also "the legs." See what some of these college pitchers look like when they come home after their first semester away. It's the legs you notice. TPM could probably tell you more of that. If he works on strengthening the legs and using them more when he throws (long toss is good for that)he will see results over time.

The Marlins are doing the same with my oldest - lots of lifting on the legs, running, agility drills & core training. My guess is TPM's boy continues that with the Cards. Get him on a good program, it will really help IMO.

quote:

Originally posted by nc42dad:
He looks very smooth. I would not try to change a whole lot.

Is he on any kind of conditioning program?

There are a lot of programs out there that are very good. When my two boys were freshman they thought throwing hard was about "their arm." What they failed to realize it is also "the legs." See what some of these college pitchers look like when they come home after their first semester away. It's the legs you notice. TPM could probably tell you more of that. If he works on strengthening the legs and using them more when he throws (long toss is good for that)he will see results over time.

The Marlins are doing the same with my oldest - lots of lifting on the legs, running, agility drills & core training. My guess is TPM's boy continues that with the Cards. Get him on a good program, it will really help IMO.

Yes, pitchers need LOTS and LOTS of lower body work if not they just rely more on their arm than the entire body and in return they get hurt. I agree with you that he is looking good for now, he does need to start concentrating now on his conditioning, weight gain, etc. or all the work will mean nothing.

i personally like the mechanics until he releases the ball. not much of a follow through and this could be seriously limiting his velocity and control. the hand should almost touch the ground as he follows through.

Update...

So he is a pretty happy young man. He didn't make the freshman team...he got moved up to JV. He should find out in a few days where he will land in the rotation. I'll try to take some game film of him this season to show you how he is progressing.

OK, so it is a full year since I posted the initial video. Here is a poor-quality video of him throwing this morning, but you should get the idea.

He has worked out quite a bit since last year and has gained in the neighborhood of 40-50 lbs (mostly legs).

What do you think?
Sophomore Year

Wow is this the same kid???? I just came across this thread tonight and watched the videos for the first time. You can really tell your son has matured.

In the first two videos I felt he wasn't getting enough extension with his left foot. This was causing him to land on a stiff leg which hurts his follow through.

The last video he has changed quite a bit in his explosiveness. He's got a much more pronounced "turn" in his balance point. I like this because it will create the explosiveness and extension he needs.

I can't really tell (and my just be wrong) but it seems like he is taking his eyes off the catcher at the very end. I think if this is true it will hurt him when it comes to fielding his position.

Also, and this might be the angle of the camera but it seems he might be landing closed. But I may be wrong based on the camera angle.

Overall I think this kid is pretty nice and should develop pretty nicely. Keep him working on the weight training in legs and core plus long tossing.

IrishDad,

Your son looks really good. You've done a nice job so far. Amazing how much weight he has put on.

He shows good intent and his rhythm is smooth.

What kind of velocity is he at?

2709-good catch on landing closed. He has always battled landing closed and cutting himself off. Taking his eyes off the catchermay be a product of 2 things...he wasn't throwing to anybody on the video, and he may have been more focused on his follow through; and/or his follow-through is pulling his gead down more than he waws used to, and he never corrected it over the past year.

RobV-He is just now getting focused on increasing his velocity. He has always focused on mechanics with the philosophy of, 'velocity will come with time'. I happened to have the gun on him the day the video was shot, and he was topping out in the low 80s. I don't know if he was throwing max speed, but I suspect it was pretty close to his max. I'm thinking he cruises in games at 78-79 and probably maxes out around 82 or 83. Just a guess though.

Definitly improved his mechanics. He is getting out over his thigh when craking the ball and before release He has also stopped locking his elbow and keeps his arm slightly bent after release. The only minor thing is his plant toe should point towards the plate as he finishes. That is why he appears to be closed. He is on grass so it may prevent the toe from rotating fully towards the plate. Much better.

He's not using his legs correctly and not getting the power from them. Until he does none of the other stuff like the finish will work for him. Study video of the greats to figure it out.

quote:

He's not using his legs correctly and not getting the power from them. Until he does none of the other stuff like the finish will work for him. Study video of the greats to figure it out.

What a completely useless reply. Do you care to clarify?

I thought it was pretty clear. He's not throwing up to his potential because his mechanics are not correct. I wish I had a gift that would allow me to post something here that would flip a switch for you and allow him to know exactly what he must do to reach his full potential but I don't. You however can study tape and figure it out. When doing so remember that how the leg gets into a certain position is equally and if not more important then if the legs get to that position. For a hint when studying tape look for the posting leg loading up and then driving the pitcher towards the plate. It looks as if he's just gliding out and getting to certain spots instead of driving towards the plate and using the power in his legs..

So your solution is, "Watch other guys pitch, and copy what they do."?

While I am not disagreeing with you (necessarily), I don't think your solution is very sound, nor is it practical. Pitching mechanics are varied for everyone, which is why no two MLB pitchers pitch alike. But sound mechanics do share common fundamental traits, which is why I (and many, many others) post here. We want to see if knowledgeable people can pick up on those traits that may be absent. You did none of those...you just said he isn't using his legs correctly.

Well, I ask you, HOW is he not using them correctly? Is he cutting himself off? Is he striding too long, or too short? Is he moving towards the plate too early or too late?

Those are the kinds of critiques folks are looking for. "He doesn't look like Nolan Ryan" doesn't really help anyone.

quote:

For a hint when studying tape

For a hint? What are we doing? Taking a class? Did you notice something or not? If you did, let us know, if you didn't.....well...I'll stop there.

quote:

Originally posted by jwest:
He's not using his legs correctly and not getting the power from them. Until he does none of the other stuff like the finish will work for him. Study video of the greats to figure it out.

I disagree.

I think he looks quite nice.

OKay Irish dad. The boy isn't getting the power from his legs it's that simple. I've been pretty clear on that in both posts. He's not loading the posting leg or driving with it. That's what I see and it's better for him to see it then read it; and I ain't really up for typing here all night either. Do as you wish though I gave my two cents and am not here to argue.

Hey guys I just watched 12 hours of film on olympic level diving from the really high platform and what they do. Then I went and tried it. I didn't do so well.........I'm starting to get feeling back in my fingers now.

jwest - first welcome to the site and hope you stay but really your first post wasn't very helpful. This place is great and a lot of people want to help everyone but we all have our likes / dislikes, what has worked / not worked; beliefs / pet peeves and such. There have been some great debates that open up your eyes and there have been some which tick you off to no end but the common element is we all try our best to back up what we say / believe.

You got to admit that the first post you made here wasn't very helpful. I don't agree that watching film is all you have to do and maybe that isn't the point you were trying to make but that is how it came across.

Hope to read more of what you got to say.

quote:

Originally posted by jwest:
OKay Irish dad. The boy isn't getting the power from his legs it's that simple. I've been pretty clear on that in both posts. He's not loading the posting leg or driving with it.

His hips start moving sideways toward the target through the top of his leg lift, which is good. Also, his lower body action is more rotational than linear, which is also good.

I really don't see the problem.

Are you a fan of Mills' momentum pitching stuff?

Compared to last winter, I see much better use of the torso -- he's getting his upper body out over the front leg much better. I was able to pause a freeze frame at release and his position there was darned near perfect.

A couple of things meant as constructive criticism:

1. His head at finish jerks a bit violently. I would suggest smoothing this out a bit. It could be a sign he is landing on his heel, though that is hard for me to see in the video.

2. He does step closed just a tad but I'm not sure it's enough to worry about. I might experiment and see which works better for him.

3. 40-50 lbs. is too much to gain in 10 months and I regret to say it's not all in the legs. To progress, he will need to get serious about his conditioning -- both exercising and eating right.