Lots of kids out there are struggling with decision on whether to pick a college to play baseball based on academics, or best baseball program. It would be great if those two colleges were the same, but that is oftentimes not an option. Anybody out there regret that he chose the best academic school v best baseball program? What about vice versa?
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Just go to the Ivy League and be done with it! :-)
I get your point, but many players, and not just ones who use a coach's thumb on the scale to get past admissions, find themselves in over their heads academically and have to make compromises, either in their commitment to baseball or their choice of a major or the level of academic achievement they accept for themselves.
If you're looking to reduce a complex, individualized decision down to one factor, I think you need to keep looking. Similarly, the "go where they love you" and "go where you'd go if baseball were not a factor" strategies can be useful to some players at some times, but they are not always dispositive.
My 2014 wouldn't be going to college if it wasn't for baseball. The "go where you'd go if baseball were not a factor" doesn't apply.He is looking at baseball first, a place where they love him and he will get a chance to play. We have aready crossed off some high academic schools that did show strong interest. I know my kid (he's just like me) he loves ball but not school, I'm guessing if after his Jr. year if he is offered a dollar, a hat and a plane ticket, he will be gone. But at least he will have three years of college under his belt. Funny thing is my 2013 is the exact opposite.
Anybody ever regret picking the best academic college?
Aleebaba - I agree with Swampboy. Someone can't reduce it down to just one decision factor. There are many, many factors to consider. The recruit and family have to decide what is most important to them based on the recruits long term goals.
My oldest son looked almost exclusively at academic schools with baseball. That is his thing. He knew it, we knew it. So, that is what we did. No regrets. We looked at every type of academic school with baseball out there. We were blown away at the number of options and differences just among the academic schools. There is similar options and variety among the "best baseball programs" that we looked at as well. They have incredible talent and world class development programs to make him the best baseball player he can be. The best thing is the recruit gets to be the judge, and decide for himself. Any recruit should be proud that he put himself in this position to chose, because many do not. In the words of Yogi Berra..."when you come to a fork in the road, take it". 
Look long term, gather data, factor in risk, and cross your fingers is the best anybody can do based on the information they have today. Best of luck.
Swampboy and Fenway have offered great advice.
I think that you have to stop trying to figure it all out and just go with the flow and decide where the better fit will be for the player. College baseball is a 3-4 year opportunity and a career with a degree from a strong academic institution can be a game changer. Yes, some may say a degree is a degree but I think a lot applies to major course of study.
IMO, one should never compromise an opportunity to get their education paid for to play at a better baseball school, as first and foremost is the education.
That is why they are called student athletes.
Anything can happen, but if the only way the player can help his family out by getting more $$ than everyone needs to sit down and figure out what is best for all.
As stated above these are all personal decisions, what is right for one may not be so for everyone.
Chances of playing beyond college doesn't always apply so keep that in mind.
It is a complex decision, but stories from those that have been there are still helpful.
I look at it in a simple way (maybe simplistic).
If there is any doubt whatsoever...any uncertainty at all...about whether to pick a college to play baseball based on academics, then a youngster shouldn't do it.
Gotta be all-in, or academics plus sports won't work at an academically selective college, I think.
Gotta be all-in, or academics plus sports won't work at an academically selective college, I think.
Why do you say that? I look at the numbers for these schools and close to 90% of the student athletes make it. I assume more than 10% have some trepidation.
Because my experience tells me it is true.
Don't know what numbers you are referring to. If "make it" means graduating and playing 3-4 years, then my judgment would be that the 90% were all in from the outset.
Can't prove it. My opinion. Based on my small slice of experience.
What do you think the correct answer is?
I think a lot of 17-18 year olds are concerned about whether they have the ability to do well academically at a tough academic school, but 91-93% ultimately succeed because the entrance standards are high, and the faculty/administration do a great job. I went to a top graduate school and they told us that we would make it, and that they would be there to help when the bumps in the road ultimately show up. They lived up to their word.
I think a lot of 17-18 year olds are concerned about whether they have the ability to do well academically at a tough academic school, but 91-93% ultimately succeed because the entrance standards are high, and the faculty/administration do a great job. I went to a top graduate school and they told us that we would make it, and that they would be there to help when the bumps in the road ultimately show up. They lived up to their word.
Your original question was:
"Anybody out there regret that he chose the best academic school v best baseball program? What about vice versa?"
Maybe you have answered it for yourself!
If the question was to find out the graduation rate for incoming recruited athletes, well seems you have the answer and I am glad to have learned that, because I didn't know before.
I think a lot of 17-18 year olds are concerned about whether they have the ability to do well academically at a tough academic school, but 91-93% ultimately succeed because the entrance standards are high, and the faculty/administration do a great job. I went to a top graduate school and they told us that we would make it, and that they would be there to help when the bumps in the road ultimately show up. They lived up to their word.
Aleebaba,
I'm not sure where you get the 91-93% figure, but I'm guessing it's from the Graduation Success Rate (GSR) published by the NCAA. That calculation does not include outgoing transfers who leave in good standing. SInce these outgoing students include the majority of students at risk of not graduating in the 6-year window, the GSR offers an overly cheerful view of the situation.
When your son signs his NLI, his school is required to provide actual data showing how many come in and how many stick around and how many get degrees. Those numbers can be sobering.
The fact of the matter is that the overwhelming majority of baseball players who head off to college do not get the experience they think they signed up for. Transfers and injuries and bench time and cuts and academic pressure and other disappointments are the norm--and that doesn't even count what opposing teams do to you. This rule applies to all divisions and all conferences (just ask the young men with plausible D1 aspirations who enroll at D3's, only to encounter 50-60 players on the fall roster and find themselves on the bench, if they're lucky).
High academic schools do not offer a refuge from this reality. For example, look at Harvard. Harvard has a GSR of 100% for the latest reporting period. There were eleven freshmen on the roster in 2010. Three of those eleven were still on the roster as seniors in 2013. Maybe all of the others were still in school nailing down their degrees. Or maybe 3 divided by 11 doesn't equal 100%. I'm not picking on Harvard. Do your own check on other schools.
Any player who aspires to play college baseball anywhere needs to plan on bouncing back from major adversity somewhere along the line, regardless of where he goes to school. Personally, I think it's great preparation for adult life, and so I am willing to encourage young men to embrace the challenge. But that's just my opinion.
College choice is highly complex and takes many factors into account. That being said, if I were a normal high school baseball player (i.e. average in every way), I would take the academic route. You need to consider the importance of education over the possibility of playing college baseball.
Swampboy - Dead on.
Standing "O" from my hotel room in Phoenix. 
The school is important but the MAJOR can have THE most effect on a college athlete. There is no question in my mind. TPM brought up that point, and I agree 100%. I've brought it before and I'll bring it up again.
HIgh academic schools get some good recruiting classes and sometimes they don't. It varies because the coaches don't always get who they want....Admissions does. Over 3 years, I've witnessed a player getting cut, player leaving the team to pursue international business opps and speak at the United Nations, etc....From my son's original 8 players, six remain (5 are starters) and 1 player transferred into his class last year.
It totally depends on the student athlete. It's been pretty obvious to our son what new recruits are just there for the baseball (they don't last but one year due to grades). They always seem to be the studs that have never had a down season before nor did they have good study habits in high school. Notice I didn't say good grades in high school? Because it seems to be the study habits and the drive to succeed academically that matters more.
But for some players it finally clicks in college. These are the ones that never miss a class, attend every study hall and accept as much tutoring as possible. Just like playing ball, it depends on the will of the player. What we've seen at our son's high academic college (average entrance GPA 4.1) the players that put in the work (in a less rigorous major) may not make Presidential Honors but they are able to pull off C's by working just as hard off the field as they do on.
It's a whole formula indeed. How good a player he is, how badly the coaches want him, what is his will to succeed off the field, etc.
I think a lot of 17-18 year olds are concerned about whether they have the ability to do well academically at a tough academic school, but 91-93% ultimately succeed because the entrance standards are high, and the faculty/administration do a great job. I went to a top graduate school and they told us that we would make it, and that they would be there to help when the bumps in the road ultimately show up. They lived up to their word.
Aleebaba,
I'm not sure where you get the 91-93% figure, but I'm guessing it's from the Graduation Success Rate (GSR) published by the NCAA. That calculation does not include outgoing transfers who leave in good standing. SInce these outgoing students include the majority of students at risk of not graduating in the 6-year window, the GSR offers an overly cheerful view of the situation.
When your son signs his NLI, his school is required to provide actual data showing how many come in and how many stick around and how many get degrees. Those numbers can be sobering.
The fact of the matter is that the overwhelming majority of baseball players who head off to college do not get the experience they think they signed up for. Transfers and injuries and bench time and cuts and academic pressure and other disappointments are the norm--and that doesn't even count what opposing teams do to you. This rule applies to all divisions and all conferences (just ask the young men with plausible D1 aspirations who enroll at D3's, only to encounter 50-60 players on the fall roster and find themselves on the bench, if they're lucky).
High academic schools do not offer a refuge from this reality. For example, look at Harvard. Harvard has a GSR of 100% for the latest reporting period. There were eleven freshmen on the roster in 2010. Three of those eleven were still on the roster as seniors in 2013. Maybe all of the others were still in school nailing down their degrees. Or maybe 3 divided by 11 doesn't equal 100%. I'm not picking on Harvard. Do your own check on other schools.
Any player who aspires to play college baseball anywhere needs to plan on bouncing back from major adversity somewhere along the line, regardless of where he goes to school. Personally, I think it's great preparation for adult life, and so I am willing to encourage young men to embrace the challenge. But that's just my opinion.
Great post!
[Small tangent. I am very interested in that roster info for Harvard (not that I doubt it) but when I go on the Harvard site, the archives don't have rosters for '10, '11, '12. Where is that information available?]
Back to your post. Because of everything you said, I think a player has to be all-in, going in. You said it better than I could
Bingo! Thanks a lot!
"Anybody ever regret picking the best academic college?"
No.
Most people on here talk in theory.
I'll talk about facts. My facts.
Coming out of high school I was being recruited by a variety of programs... D1 & D3's.... High Academic & everything below.
To make a long story short, the top academic school that I got into and wanted me play baseball was The College of William & Mary.
Athletically, I handled my business. Played a ton my freshman year. Played everyday my sophomore year.
Academically, the place was WAY above me. I was a guy that used baseball to get into school.
After getting me teeth kicked in for 2 years in the class room I reached a fork in the road... keep playing baseball and risk failing out or stop playing baseball in hopes of getting a degree.
I chose the degree. No thoughts of transferring chasing a child's game. The chance of a degree from that type of institution was not going to slip away. Sure I could have gone somewhere easier out of high school. Why?
I've never once regret that decision. End of story.
You or your son will probably not play baseball in the MLB. You better figure out how to compete in the real world.
Rich
It totally depends on the student athlete. It's been pretty obvious to our son what new recruits are just there for the baseball (they don't last but one year due to grades). They always seem to be the studs that have never had a down season before nor did they have good study habits in high school. Notice I didn't say good grades in high school? Because it seems to be the study habits and the drive to succeed academically that matters more.
But for some players it finally clicks in college. These are the ones that never miss a class, attend every study hall and accept as much tutoring as possible. Just like playing ball, it depends on the will of the player. What we've seen at our son's high academic college (average entrance GPA 4.1) the players that put in the work (in a less rigorous major) may not make Presidential Honors but they are able to pull off C's by working just as hard off the field as they do on.
It's a whole formula indeed. How good a player he is, how badly the coaches want him, what is his will to succeed off the field, etc.
That makes a lot of sense, and it fits with my experience. I had no understanding how much work college was until I got there, and it is even that much harder when playing a sport. Luckily incoming freshmen have upper class kids and others that help them understand this process, but it is clearly very hard. Those that have the will succeed. Those that don't . . . .
Sure I could have gone somewhere easier out of high school. Why?
I've never once regret that decision. End of story.
You or your son will probably not play baseball in the MLB. You better figure out how to compete in the real world.
Rich
Thank you for post Rich. It is good to hear from people that have been through it.
"Anybody ever regret picking the best academic college?"
No.
Rich
You lost me at "no".
I am very glad that William & Mary worked out for you, and led to a successful career. But I cannot buy into the logic that "because it happened to me", it is a universal truth and nothing else has validity.
I get it that if the choice is between Harvard and East Armpit U, that there would have to be pretty extenuating circumstances to choose EAU. But what if the choice were, let's say, between William & Mary and North Carolina? I'm not convinced that the W&M graduate with a GPA below 3, who quit baseball junior year, is a lock to be able to compete in the real world better than the UNC grad who played ball all four years.
Many posters here have articulated nuances (better than I have) that I would recommend readers take into account. Personal anecdotes are fine to help create a mosaic from which readers can draw their own impressions. But "because it happened to me therefore it is truth" obviously cannot be the truth, and besides that, rings a little shallow to me.
Not sure how I lost you.
He asked if anyone had regret picking the best academic college.
My answer was "no".
As stated in my post, lots of people on here will talk in theory and "what if".
I chose to speak about the facts of my life.
So, best of luck. Hope my personal anecdote didn't confuse too many people.
Rich
Not sure how I lost you.
He asked if anyone had regret picking the best academic college.
My answer was "no".
Rich
I know lots of youngsters who have had regret. It is not a cut and dried issue. I do not think the answer to the question, "anybody ever regret picking the best academic college" is "no"
For the record. My post also asked for vice-versa experiences.
Not sure how I lost you.
He asked if anyone had regret picking the best academic college.
My answer was "no".
Rich
I know lots of youngsters who have had regret. It is not a cut and dried issue. I do not think the answer to the question, "anybody ever regret picking the best academic college" is "no"
I believe Rich is stating that for "him", the answer is no. I don't believe he is answering on behalf of anyone else.
Obviously Rich should explain what he meant..
Really didn't think this was going to cause any confusion.
Let me clarify - For me, Rich Prado, there was NO regret in choosing a high academic school. These comments do not reflect the opinions of others nor are they made up stories of theoretical ball players.
The original poster is looking for direction. I'd suggest giving real life examples, like I did, instead of conjecture. If you went to high academic school and now, as an adult, regret that decision, you should post that information here.
Really not that complicated.
Rich
www.PlayInSchool.com/bus_tour <----- North Carolina Tour just added for 2014!
I took the words literally and did not have the insight that NYdad provided.
So, Rich...if you are willing, and I understand if you are not......can you tell us which baseball program(s) with a better legacy than William & Mary you turned down? I hope I am correct that this is the relevant fact situation here.
My understanding of the original post was basically Strong Academics vs Strong Baseball.... had anyone that chose Strong Academics ever had regret?
My answer was NO. I chose the best academic school I could get into and play at.
I turned down other schools that were better on the baseball field that were not at the same level academically as W&M. Those schools need not be mentioned. Feel free to call if you need them.
Not sure if you have a particular ax to grind with me, W&M, or what. I've stated my thoughts, 3 or 4 times now. I'm sorry if we are different sides of the fence.
By the way, I'm still waiting for an Ivy Leaguer or Ivy equivalent to post their regrets here.
This is the last I will comment on this topic.
Rich
Why can't Rich just tell his story? You can take whatever lesson you want from it, but I am concerned that people feel that can't post their own experiences and opinions on those experiences without feeling like they are getting the third degree.
I agree with you Swampboy that a slightly lesser academic opportunity may have been another option, but we do not know if that was available, nor would Rich know if his circumstance would have been different. I assume most kids do not have options between North Carolina and William & Mary, or anything close to that. The choice is most likely high academic school v. D1 mid major baseball school or D2.
Rich - I'm reading you loud and clear. Your point was made. Congrats on the NC tour!
Swampboy/GL - I think he realizes he was over his head. He stated this in his first post and last post. His point was he doesn't regret getting the best education possible because he was going into professional life not professional baseball. He paid a high price (not playing baseball junior and senior year) but has no regrets. He considered transferring but didn't. I thought his story provided guidance and a cautionary tale for the OP to consider.
FYI....There are tools out there (now) that show where you fall in terms of board score academic qualifications (ie College Navigator)...http://nces.ed.gov/collegenavigator/?q=william+and+mary&s=all&id=231624#admsns. I realize this isn't optimal, but it is good for a SWAG. So, the 25% percentile for W&M SAT Math is 620 and 75% percentile is 720. Most schools also publish the previous years incoming class profile. This also a good guide to judge if your son is reaching too high.
FYI....There are tools out there (now) that show where you fall in terms of board score academic qualifications (ie College Navigator)...http://nces.ed.gov/collegenavigator/?q=william+and+mary&s=all&id=231624#admsns.
Shows 91% graduation rate, and 7% transfer rate for W&M. Saw similar numbers for other high academic schools, (regardless of situation -- be it sports, legacy, etc . . . ). Those are pretty good indicators that most kids getting into those schools find a way to make it work, (even if they follow Rich's example).
Fenway and Aleebaba,
I'm not down on Rich at all. I talked to him years ago early in my son's search. I listened to his advice. I like him. He advertises on the site. I have no problem with him whatsoever.
Please understand that I'm writing from the perspective of someone with a graduate degree from W&M whose son turned down an offer from W&M (against my unuttered hopes) because he was afraid of a scenario exactly like the one Rich described.
From a parent's perspective, Rich's story has a happy ending. Baseball helped him get into a great school, and he got a degree he's proud of. As a 30-something grownup he is content with his choices and at peace with himself. No problem, right?
However, from the perspective of a high school player, Rich's story reads like a cautionary tale that explains exactly why a dedicated ballplayer would not want to go to the best academic school available.
Rich's regret or lack of it is irrelevant to how a 17-year-old would interpret his story. He's happy, but I know lots of ballplayers who would run away from that version of happiness.
Best wishes,
S
FYI....There are tools out there (now) that show where you fall in terms of board score academic qualifications (ie College Navigator)...http://nces.ed.gov/collegenavigator/?q=william+and+mary&s=all&id=231624#admsns.
Shows 91% graduation rate, and 7% transfer rate for W&M. Saw similar numbers for other high academic schools, (regardless of situation -- be it sports, legacy, etc . . . ). Those are pretty good indicators that most kids getting into those schools find a way to make it work, (even if they follow Rich's example).
Found information as well showing graduation rates of student athletes in different conferences. The Ivy League had graduation rates of baseball players between 86% and 100%. This suggests to me that once you are in they find a way to get you through. Obviously these stats cannot tell if any of these athletes quit the team. See http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/newmed...lic/rates/index.html
taking another look at a similar situation.... how many kids do we know that go off to a JUCO, D-3, D-2, etc.... and two years in aren't there anymore and have transferred?
transferred and not playing baseball anymore
Found information as well showing graduation rates of student athletes in different conferences. The Ivy League had graduation rates of baseball players between 86% and 100%. This suggests to me that once you are in they find a way to get you through. Obviously these stats cannot tell if any of these athletes quit the team. See http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/newmed...lic/rates/index.html
Aleebaba,
Truthfully, I think it (graduation rate) has a lot to do with the number of games (40-42 total, 20 in conference), when they are allowed to practice, limited mid-week travel, and the length of their season which is all very different from other D1 programs. Their academic load is heavy for many majors, but the baseball schedule is more forgiving than other D1s for academics. It is more manageable. JMO.
Swampboy,
Understood. I was trying to clarify what I thought was Rich's intent since he said he wasn't going to post again on the topic. I didn't think you were down on him. You have a great point that a lot of ballplayers would walk away from that version of happiness. Parents and adults certainly see things differently from a 17 year old young man..
taking another look at a similar situation.... how many kids do we know that go off to a JUCO, D-3, D-2, etc.... and two years in aren't there anymore and have transferred?
transferred and not playing baseball anymore
For many players, it usually takes 2 or 3 semesters for them to realize that something has to give, and it's usually baseball. Sometimes it's not just about academics, but rather one wants to experience campus life, get a job or concentrate on a more difficult major.
FWIW my son attended a school that claims to have a very fine engineering program. On the official visit he was told straight up that because of the demands of their program (a strong ACC program) engineering wasn't going to work.
Now I suppose that if he went to Harvard there is no way anyone would have said that to him. Reality is that there is a very big difference between an IL school's baseball program vs other programs, especially the ones that consistently are in the top 25.
This is a personal decision. What needs to be explained (ask this question on your visits) is what commitment the program gives to their student athletes to help them to succeed in the classroom as well as on the field. Most programs require study halls, supply tutors and extra study help on projects, so make sure you check out the academic facilities for these purposes, if this is a very big concern to you.
Here is an opposite example that the OP originally asked about as well.
My son is currently going into his senior year at a very good academic private school in the Northeast, while playing baseball as a 2-way player. This school is also fully funded and he has a very significant athletic scholarship.
During the time he was being recruited there was interest and offers from 2 different Ivy League schools. The only way my son would have been accepted at either of these schools would have been through baseball, and even then he was on the lower end of acceptability (for an athlete) and they would have been looking for improvement in his test scores come the fall. I remember figuring his AI and it was something around a 190. This led him to think there was even was a possibility that he would have turned down the offer (at his current school) and may not have received a "likely letter" from the Ivy League school.
He struggled coming up with the right choice for many weeks. His selection, was obviously to accept the offer from his current school. Looking back on his experience, both with baseball and academics, I would say he ended up exactly where he should be.
