Anybody notice the size of the players in the WBC Championship game?

Yeah...it was a refreshing sight for sore eyes!

njdad, your point is noted

expect no other responses here ... the prevailing attitude here is the "code phrase"

"you gotta get bigger and stronger"

code phrase "de-coded" = "juice up"

I thought that some of the Cubans looked big.
One had a really big head too!!

The Cubans play under the bearded one, and their past relationship with the ussr suggests they had access to what ever was available. They had some hyper looking litte guys throwing 92 and some little guys hitting the long ball.
Juice and all, talent, desire and preparation will prevail, as it did.

Chairman:

That's a nice, concise way of saying it...the juice scourge should be roundly denounced...especially on a site like this!

I also noticed how many wore elbow guards. It seemed almost everyone was wearing one in the championship game.

CHAIRMAN

Only in minds similar to yours

Have you not heard of good nutrition and solid work out ethics?

Just to support TR's point...

In college, I was 6-2, 220 and could bench press close to 400 pounds. Never touched a steroid or even took a vitamin pill - just Mom's Irish cooking and lots of time in the gym.

Guys can get big and strong without taking the easy way like Bonds and Canseco. Don't put everyone in the same boat.

BD1228, your Irish cooking has got my tummy growling

anyway ... that was 20 yrs ago, at that time "get bigger and stronger"
meant eat your "veggies" & be like Barry Bonds 1988
now, it means have your "juice" & be like Barry Bonds 2006

speak to guys who are in college NOW, they will tell you about the pressure of that statement and the temptaion when ...
they lose weight during season
they lose more weight during their summer league

they get back to school & have to put on 15+ lbs in the fall just to get back where they started the yr before

they get the message loud & clear that Irish cooking didn't make Bonds, Palmeiro, Canseco, McGuire etc what they are ... AND, MLB wants guys like THAT

It amazes me that a person with the name of Chairman can be so uninformed but then the profile might say it all

Good nutrition and work out ethics of today are far more advanced than 20 years ago without a doubt.

perhaps "the informed one" will back up his views with the numbers on how many NCAA baseball players did not pass screening in 2005

I'll wait .........................

CHAIRMAN

You made the claim--- you come up with the figures

My statement was regarding nutrition and work out ethic improvement and that you can develop body mass without 'roids

In watching the games I thought some of the Cuban players stood out as being very thick. However, doesn't necessarily mean it's the result of steroids. Difficult to pass judgement not having seen and followed these guys over their careers in order to have noticed a dramatic and sudden change in their physical appearance.

NYDAD

Just as our USA kids are now bigger than when we were kids, they seem to grow with each generation, I am sure it is the same in other countries

quote:

Thit says: CHAIRMAN - You made the claim -- you come up with the figures

fair enough ... truth is .. they're secret (suprised you didn't know that)

they are more correctly called "confidential" by the School & NCAA

AND

U R saying that steroids are NOT in college??
U R saying you work with kids??
U R saying your seeing eye dog is healthy?

though confidential, there IS ...
AIM, email, txt msg, etc and players everywhere KNOW soon after it happens

in your defense, players WILL "CLAM UP" if they think you don't need to know,
(an old guy out of touch doing his best, living in the 60's)

BUT... maybe they were telling you & you JUST DIDN'T LISTEN!!

I dont mean to sound rude but who cares? I could careless what size the players are. WOW look son the pitcher is 5'9! Why is that a big deal to anyone? Who cares. No more than I go WOW look son the pitcher is 6'4 lean and athletic looking. I bet he lifts weights really hard. I just watch the games and admire the ability of the players. I could careless about the size or lack thereof.

quote:

Originally posted by NYdad:
In watching the games I thought some of the Cuban players stood out as being very thick. However, doesn't necessarily mean it's the result of steroids.

NYdad,

At least compared to the Japanese players, I thought the Cubans were thick as well. To be honest, some of them looked like they had little beer bellies and reminded me of some old 16" softball players I used to play with.


I'm sure the Cubans aren't fat, but the contrasting body types between the two teams was very interesting. I guess there is more than one way to reach the highest level of baseball after all.

Mike F

Chairman

I truly think your profile tells us all about your mental abilities

Let me say this to you

01--I didnt think you could have numbers for us

02-- dont put words in my mouth because it may come back to give you indigestion-- I never said that about steroids

03-- I am involved with kids and young adults

04-- You here step over the line-- I did have a seeing eye dog , a super black lab for over 12 years--he passed just a few years back--and he was a lot more w aware of thing than you appear to be

I do not need your defense because sir--this is the last post to you--I need not lower myself to your level

Have a good life as CHAIRMAN

I know Bonds took steroids and TR and I have gone back and forth on this in different strings. I absoultely support his position that an athlete, through hard work and proper nutrition, can achieve the same results as a steroid abuser. Although training methods have changed over the years, the result desired is strength, speed, quickness and flexibility. My son is 6-0, 195 and can bench 330 pounds. He was trained at a speed school over the winter and reduced his 60 time from 7.8 or 7.9 down to a 7.3 last week (he's a catcher). He changed his diet, worked hard, lost 25 pounds and achieved all of his pre-season goals. Hard work and nutrition is the formula. TR is right. It works.

Baseballdad1228:

TR is correct of course...but nonetheless...

Regardless of good work ethics, productive work out and dietary regimens, the juice scourge is out there and should be roundly denounced...always...especially here on the HSBBW...where enlightened youngsters come to learn!

GotWood,

You are absolutely right.

MJM

baseballdad

Thanx

Nice to see others see things clearly as well

sorry about the lab, they sure have a way of becoming part of the family

I don't disagree at all that nutrition and a work ethic can accomplish much, but there is a huge temptation to accomplish MORE ... that should not be taken lightly ...IMO

quote:

GW4S says: Regardless of good work ethics .... work out and dietary regimens, the juice scourge is out there and should be roundly denounced...always

everything I've posted on this subject agrees with that as well, and it's dismaying to me that it would cause argument ... BUT, maybe it will provoke some thought and/or "extra homework" by someone lurking and reading ...
if it benefits only 1 player/parent that would be great

I was watching the Game Show network and "Family Feud" was on. It was World Series Week and the two teams competing were the Royals and the Phillies. The show originally aired in 1980. Guys like Bobby Valentine and Mike Schmidt were on the Phillies and Willie Wilson was one of the Royals. These guys were skinny and small(not short) by todays standards. Even Schmidt didn't look big at all. There is no way evolution could account for such big changes in the players builds in only a matter of 15 years.

I will go along with BBD1228 that weights and nutrition have become a regular regimen of baseball players from High School on. Here is the problem though. The steroids get you there quicker and take you where you couldn't go with just nutrition and lifting. Using BBD1228 son as an example: While he did make great gains with hard work he could find his competition, who is juicing, lifting 380+ and running a 6.8 or 6.9. Your son would now have a decision to make as to how badly he wanted to keep up with the juicer. And that is the real problem with steroids, it forces anyone who wants to have success to become a freak just to keep up.

If NCAA is serious about it's drug policy it will test players in the summer leagues ... that's where a lot of the juicing goes on.

Dear old Dad:

Having to keep up with the juicer...now that is scary! Good post!

I do not think they have to "keep up" as you say if they are a good athlete to begin with--if you are a good athlete to start with you wont be even if you use "roids

Chairman:

quote:

Originally posted by Chairman:
...BUT, maybe it will provoke some thought and/or "extra homework" by someone lurking and reading ...
if it benefits only 1 player/parent that would be great

Denouncing this scourge should be a slam dunk...especially here on the HSBBW.

I agree with you about the benefits of speaking out against the illegal use of steroids...if only one person or athlete is helped then it is worth the effort.

We, as a society, certainly don't hesitate to speak out about the dangers of abusing other substances like tobacco, alcohol, and other illicit drugs...and here on the HSBBW we really have a higher standard because we are primarily concerned with athletes...and athletes should treat their body as a temple...not a crack house!

Dear Old,

Your point is understood. I feel that as a single parent, my job is to make my son aware of the dangers of steroid abuse and the related health issues. I also taught him and continue to reinforce the concepts of working hard and playing by the rules. Hopefully, if I've done what I'm supposed to have done, as he moves forward in baseball he will make the right decisions using ethics, honor, morals and an understanding of values to guide him.

It's up to baseball to level the playing field for the athletes who compete at the highest level with the talents given by God and developed through tremendous effort over time. Baseball should not - it must not - blindly allow players who had their talent nurtured at the end of a syringe or the content of a smoked brown medicine container purchased at a place like Balco to continue in baseball. It has to stop.

TR:

The temptation is there...to keep up. Perhaps the majority of our young athletes resist this temptation...I hope that is the case. I don't have the hard statistics to determine the depth of the problem, but it seems to me that we should have a better handle on the situation...a better understanding of just what exactly is going on with our young athletes and the abuse of steroids. From what I hear from teenagers...it is a problem...abuse does occur.

How do we first recognize and then quantify the magnitude of the problem? I'm not sure. For certain, we can not turn a blind eye towards it.

This reminds me of the prevailing sentiment towards drinking and driving decades ago.

No action was seriously going to be brought against the drunken drivers and the carnage they caused back then because why?...too many judges, lawyers, sheriffs, and politicians knew they could get in trouble if the laws were stiffened to curb the problem...they were out driving drunk themselves.

It wasn't until Candy Lightner and the group she formed, Mothers Against Drunk Drivers, gained popularity and influence did the laws begin to indeed stiffen...she was motivated to act by the death of her son...the victim of a drunken driver.

Are there parallels now when considering steroid use and drunken driving then?

Remember...people were spurred to action to save young lives and make this a safer world for all.

Thank goodness for the Candy Lightners of the world...they take on a cause and indeed make a difference...driving while drunk now carries a much more serious consequence than it did back then...and it even results in shame for the offenders...and considering shame is almost non-existent nowadays, that is really an accomplishment!

GOTWOOD


It all starts in the home--it is our responsibility as parents to guide them properly

My son went off to college 5-9/150 and ended up 5-11/195 with 5 % body fat and he didnt use 'roids---his diet habits changed and he worked out in the gym religiously even when at home

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
I do not think they have to "keep up" as you say if they are a good athlete to begin with--if you are a good athlete to start with you wont be even if you use "roids

If Barry Bonds, an athlete talented enough to be a 1st Ballot Hall of Famer, felt he had to take steroids to keep up, what does that tell you about the power of steroids? Remember, every athlete is looking for something different. Some guys might just be looking to remain productive enough to keep drawing a paycheck, while others may be looking to get a bigger contract. Whatever the reason, there is no denying the improvement is there.

TR:

It does start in the home...I agree.

And your son is to be commended for his hard work and perserverance...and especially his resisting the temptation to use steroids!

I hope that we all agree that steroids are wrong, cheating and repulsive. I really dont think there is any doubt that we all agree on this. My point here is just because you are big and strong does not mean that you use them. There are a ton of players that train hard eat right and do it the right way. These guys should not have to be subjected to ridicule because they have a great work ethic. In this country you are innocent before proven guilty at least thats the way its supposed to be. If a guy is proven to use steroids ban them and move on. The testing is in place and lets move on. Train hard , eat right and play ball. If they are cheaters they will be found out eventually and they will pay the price. I think the message has been sent loud and clear recently that it will not be tolerated anymore.

quote:

snoop says: If NCAA is serious about it's drug policy it will test players in the summer leagues ... that's where a lot of the juicing goes on.

quote:

coach may says: "If they are cheaters they will be found out eventually and they will pay the price. I think the message has been sent loud and clear recently that it will not be tolerated anymore."

really?

so, they test at your HS?

Let me pose this question -- and please, do not take this in any way as an endorsement of steroid use:

How does a non-using player keep up when the juicer juices AND is in the weight room AND is eating properly AND is drinking protein shakes AND is doing everything he can possibly do to become "bigger, faster, stronger"? Juicing is done IN ADDITION TO everything else....and that is what poses the dilemna for players.

Not every school tests -- many JUCOs don't. In some DI schools there is an awareness of when the testing takes place. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out when to cycle off.

And, like with anything else, if people want to do something, they will figure out a way to do it and not get caught. It's often easy for us to see, but when a coach is looking at kids every day they don't necessarily see the changes.

So many of you who said that it begins at home are correct. It does. Probably most of the parents on this website are heavily involved with their kids and have created relationships with their children that transcend what happens on the field. My son and I talk about steroids frequently. PLAYERS know. They tell each other about it.

To me, there isn't much difference between this and the use of greenies -- which was kept under wraps for years. A drug is a drug. There are things that speed can do that steroids can't and vice versa. Both are wrong. But I don't think that we should speak to one and exclude the other from consideration.

mcozart:

Everything you say is both fair and reasonable. We should all be very, very careful not to accuse or even imply that just because an athlete is big and strong that it is the result of steroid use.

Athletes that have acheived these tremendous results without the use of steroids should be solidly applauded...certainly not looked at with suspicion.

With that said, it is not unreasonable for people to be skeptical and suspicious in light of the increased reports of illegal steroid use at all levels.

In addition to the huge health problems, both physical and mental, that occurs with the use of steroids, there are other problems also. These problems should not be overlooked.

The problem of the playing field being unfairly tipped towards the illegal steroid user. This totally goes counter to our sense of fairness. It severely undermines the lessons of good sportsmanship that most of us try to teach our young and growing athletes.

The problem of the terrible, terrible pressure that is exerted on those good, fair, law abiding, and rule respecting athletes that are having to compete against competitors who are seriously cheating...the good, highly competitive, athletes should never have to face the dilemma of staying clean and being at a potential disadvantage versus lowering their high standards and becoming a user themselves in an effort to keep up with the cheaters.

That's why illegal steroid use is such a scourge...it is responsible for great damage and turmoil...it must not be tolerated and more importantly it must not be condoned or ignored.

For our baseball playing athletes, the HSBBW is probably one of the best equipped and widely read forums to spread the message that steroids most certainly are a vicious scourge and they should be shunned. Furthermore, those athletes that are in the grip of steroids need help. Everyone can agree with that.

Let's never back away from the fight...our athletes and the game deserves everything we've got!

quote:

Have you not heard of good nutrition and solid work out ethics?

It's unfortunate that all the hysteria over Bonds, Canseco, Palmeiro, etc. has swelled to the point that any muscular baseball player is automatically pegged as using steroids. There are loads of misconceptions floating around, and you can readily see it on this board.

Yes, proper diet and workout techniques will make you bigger and stronger, moreso when you are younger, with a higher natural testosterone level in late teens to early twenties. Diet and workouts don't make your head swell like a Macy's Day Balloon...ala Bonds. Mom's Irish cooking and weightlifting doesn't cause a skyrocketing testosterone level at 40 years old...ala Bonds.

From the handful of college baseball players I know, steroids are a problem in college baseball. Adding 2 or 3 mph to a fastball or 40 feet to a flyball could mean a chance at pro ball...it could be the difference between not getting a shot and getting a $1,000 signing bonus with a bus ticket, it could mean playing SEC ball instead of D2 ball, it could mean hundreds of thousands, or millions in signing bonuses. If you don't think steroids are a problem in college ball...get a grip.

Certain steroid combinations are being shown to sharpen eyesight, increase hand-eye coordination, and increase batspeed. For those that don't believe it, do some research. If you are already blessed with the talent, steroids will enhance that talent. If you don't have the natural ability, it's a moot point...steroids won't make a jacka## win the Kentucky Derby.

Pitchers aren't exempt from being steroid users. Several of the minor league guys caught in testing were pitchers....the pressure is on to light up the radar gun.

Testing in MLB is making a difference...but it needs to go further to include blood testing, since HGH doesn't show up in urine tests. The tests need to include testosterone, and research needs to be ongoing to identify tests for designer steroids...particularly since one of the steroids that testimony showed Bonds as using was a formulation that never was released to the public...making it impossible to detect, because it's pretty difficult to test for something you don't know exists.