Anyone have a negative experience with an Academic D3?

My son was a fringe LHP. He had some walk on offers from Big State U. He wanted a small liberal Arts college, and the D1's that fit that category were not interested. 

He had many D3 opportunities. He was very happy with his choice. He went D3.

But if he went the walk on route he may have been happy with that as well. 

Your mileage may very. 

Good question.  I suspect there may be somewhat of a limited field of folks who have experience with this exact scenario, but it would be interesting to see their thoughts.

My sense is that the cuts/playing time issues are similar at high academic D3 (all D3 really) and D1. Kids were cut (mostly freshman) at the end of the fall in my son's program; certain players (at all years) got little or no playing time.  I'm sure some of these players deemed it a bad experience.

If you KNEW that the player would ride the bench at a fringe D1 versus being a key player at a high academic D3, I suspect most everyone would pick the D3.  But nobody knows either end of that equation going in.

There was this thread: http://community.hsbaseballweb...ic/tufts-university?

Uh oh.  That thread again!

But it's very relevant to the question...

Let the buyer beware. 

There are many programs that over recruit.  It becomes more of a challenge at a high academic D3 because it's harder to be admitted.  But it does happen.  And that could be a reason for disappointment. 

There are also coaches who aren't the greatest or nicest guys in the world.  That's true everywhere, in every profession.  It's very important to check references of current and former players/families, watch practices and games, etc.  

And whether at a high academic D3 or a low academic (?) D1, playing time is limited.  Only the best players will play.  And that can be a cause for celebration or disappointment.

My former D1 player transferred last year after a couple years off.  He was a starter at D1, and he's extremely happy dropping down.  The overall experience is much better for him.  My 2016 went directly to a D3.  He loves the school. 

There will obviously be many different experiences and stories.  Most of the time, it boils down to the truthfulness and integrity of the head coach (and staff).  I was recently contacted by a parent who had a D3 coach tell he and his son during the recruiting process last spring that he had only cut three players in over a dozen years of coaching.

Then, the son shows up on that same D3 campus this Fall and is one of about a dozen (so far) who have been cut from a roster of more than 50 kids by that same coach.  Apparently, that coach defines the word "cut" differently than most of us.  

There are backups on every team in America, at every level.  I would imagine a vast majority of them want to play more than they do.  I would also imagine some of them would label theirs as a "bad experience"

A lot of people these days point fingers and make excuses as opposed to out working their competition. Most of those people will quickly tell you theirs is a "bad experience",

Your mileage will vary.  I would say: you create your own luck.  Life is what you make it.  Take your best shot and own it.  Those are cliches for a reason.

More than a handful of players who have played for me (HS) have gone the D3 route.  Many have succeeded, some have not.  Here are some of the problems that players have that go D3...

Often they will get a little bit of attention from a higher level but no solid offer and they think some version of "well, I can always go D3 and play/be a star".  I find it almost universal that players underestimate how competitive it can be at all levels.  Most who do target D3 will at least target winning programs.  So, when they show up, they are surprised at the level of play and the number of good players.  Also, remember the many discussions here regarding the unlimited roster sizes, JV programs and incentive for the schools to boost attendance, as well as the fact there is no athletic $.  So, when D3 coaches are complimentary and encourage a player to come to their school, that player is quite likely to think this is the D3 version of being "recruited" (and, to varying extents, it is - except there is no $ commitment to gauge what extent).  Then, when he finds himself on the bubble, cut or sent to JV in the fall, it can be quite the jolt.  They tend to think they took the safer route (in regards to playing/ making the roster) only to find that may not be the case.

The following story is why it’s important to hear what the coach is really saying and not what you want to hear.

A friend’s son was recruited to a quality D3 with a respected name coach. His kid was told to apply ED and provide all the material to the coach to walk it through. He was fine. He was on the field at least half the time as a freshman, then a three year starter. There were six similar recruits (application wise).. 

Fall of his freshman year about thirty-two freshmen show up who thought they were walk ons. It turned out they were thirty-two walk ons competing for three roster sports. Twenty-nine players had their baseball journeys die on the field that fall.

I always am concerned, with this conversations. While a college, any college, may not be right for everyone. They certainly right for some. Even on these teams that over recruit, there are players that make to the field, as 2 or 3 year starters. Some even start for four years. On a board like to this, I in most cases cannot tell if an individual has the skills to start at any college. I would hate to guide someone away from what could be a great experience for some. It is up to the individual to try to see the team play, and honestly compare their skills against the competition. 

At a high academic, if the coach does not offer assistance, getting through admission's, but helps other's, then think long and hard.

As always, your mile may vary.

I think this topic could be a good one but it seems to have caution flags surrounding it that get in the way of real helpful input.  Perhaps if it had a different title - "How do D3s show love?" or "What questions do I need to ask before I commit to a D3?" or "How do I evaluate a D3 coach's interest level?" or such, it would work better.  I suspect this is what the OP was trying to get to. With D1s money talks and it seems straightforward to know if a coach wants you - he offers money or he doesn't.  Not so with D3s.  I think there's a lot of interest in this board regarding navigating the D3 minefield but it's all so murky.

Yes, given the murky nature of D3, you are somewhat at the mercy of what the coach says.  However, past experiences with the school can also be an indicator.  Net-net, the real question is this:  If a high-academic D3 coach offers ED support, can one reasonably assume that he is on the team the following spring?  

Agree with Smitty about understanding the questions being asked.   My son was recruited by D3s and what they had to offer had to be different than the offering D1s.  In one case, he had a D3 ranked higher than a bunch of D1s.    I believe the recruit and parents need to have a real good sense of what the recruit is bringing to the table.....are his baseball skill sets unique or similiar to others being considered for the same position at the D3 in question?   I think if you think objectively and think like a coach you can come up with these answers and have a pretty good idea how you will be evaluated and treated.  If the recruits skill set is above a starting player on the current team chances are pretty good he will be given lots of opportuniites.   If the recruits skill set is less than or equal to a starting player then he has a lot of work to do.

Additionally, you have to understand what the coach is giving up to get you committed to his team and admitted to the school.   If the Coach giving you a guararanteed "ED slot" on the roster (typically 1-3 slots per class), or is he providing an " ED tip" (recommendation to Admissions) or does the recruit have to get admitted on his own?   Each one of these admission criteria has value especially in extremely competitive academic schools.   What the coach does is much more significant than what he says in this situation.

As always, JMO.

Smitty28 posted:

I think this topic could be a good one but it seems to have caution flags surrounding it that get in the way of real helpful input.  Perhaps if it had a different title - "How do D3s show love?" or "What questions do I need to ask before I commit to a D3?" or "How do I evaluate a D3 coach's interest level?" or such, it would work better.  I suspect this is what the OP was trying to get to. With D1s money talks and it seems straightforward to know if a coach wants you - he offers money or he doesn't.  Not so with D3s.  I think there's a lot of interest in this board regarding navigating the D3 minefield but it's all so murky.

But a D1 coach can show love with a 50% offer to a HS sophomore and then decline to honor that commitment when it comes time for the NLI.  Or he can tell the kid to find a new home after freshman year.

AD2018 said:

Net-net, the real question is this:  If a high-academic D3coach offers ED support, can one reasonably assume that he is on the team the following spring?  

There are no guarantees, obviously, but from what little I know most high-academic D3 coaches only have a handful of ED "hooks" to hand out per year, so they are saving them for kids they are pretty darn sure are going to be able to contribute. But then again, everybody makes mistakes, and a kid who looked like a stud at the Stanford camp could turn out to be a dud when he gets to college, so you never know.  As for kids not getting ED support, well, as others have noted, they need to be listening very carefully.

AD2018 posted:

Yes, given the murky nature of D3, you are somewhat at the mercy of what the coach says.  However, past experiences with the school can also be an indicator.  Net-net, the real question is this:  If a high-academic D3 coach offers ED support, can one reasonably assume that he is on the team the following spring?  

High academic D3 HC offered ED support to 2018; HC stated son was his "top pick" and he would start as a freshman (likely at 3B because HC liked last years freshman SS).  Stay tuned on that.....  Should be interesting...

HC stated son was at the top of his list (of course, and a few others I'm sure) and knew son was being recruited by several other schools; sons ACT score is in the middle 50% percentile of accepted applicants, so the HC knows there is a high probability of being accepted ED.

I've accepted that this still could not work out... just calling it like it is,  we will see.  Working heavily on the essay now.  Nov 1 deadline.

Oh, and son just had pleasant OV the past weekend... (but son asking to visit cousins and brother at Auburn and SMU to be certain....argh)

 (Edited some grammar)

Gov, you and I have talked about this, but I'm going to post publicly so anyone can benefit/argue from/with what I say:

There are some high academic D3 schools (and the D1 Ivies) that have a defined number of slots, where coach can provide support.  Some kids have such strong grades and scores, that sometimes a coach will actually not give the kid a slot where they help with admissions during ED, but offer them a spot should they get in.  They know from a pre-read that Admissions has said they are a very strong candidate and so they take the risk so that they can provide support for another recruit who needs the support more.  This happens, and may contribute to why guys come out of the woodwork in the fall.  Yes most may be walk ons, but some may be just as desired as ED slot kids.

Also, one should be careful when a coach says you will start as a freshman, or be in the weekend rotation, etc.  Gov's son is a stud, and I do not doubt that coach, but no coach can know for sure who is going to improve over the summer, grow, gain muscle, increase velocity, etc.  It is pretty hard for even the best HC to know who will start almost 18 months from now.  Having said that, depending upon the position of the player, one can be a bit more informed (ie SS who played every inning graduated and recruit is only MIF in recruiting class is a good sign).   

Concur TwoBoys - when HC was talking about the role my son would have immediately, I was holding my breath, knowing there are no guarantees the HC could give.  

This is common w all baseball programs - "I like you today, but in 12 months I may view you differently"...

Twoboys posted:

 

There are some high academic D3 schools (and the D1 Ivies) that have a defined number of slots, where coach can provide support.  Some kids have such strong grades and scores, that sometimes a coach will actually not give the kid a slot where they help with admissions during ED, but offer them a spot should they get in. 

  

Know the feeling here, Twoboys. Made it clear that we wanted son to be a "support." Despite his grades/SAT/class rank, you get nervous when perfect SAT, valedictorians are rejected in general population of school.

My son was recruited by a high academic D3, did an overnight visit, put on a show in an intra squad game with current team members, got on the coaches list for ED. Did not get in. We then had to scramble to find another school -- it was already December. Another D3, not as exclusive, the coach jumped at the opportunity that fell into his lap, and my son was admitted immediately. Rolling admissions. He's now doing Fall practices, adjusting to a very demanding schedule, has a shot at starting in the Spring. It's too early to say it all worked out for the better, but at least it worked out.  

brosenyc posted:

My son was recruited by a high academic D3, did an overnight visit, put on a show in an intra squad game with current team members, got on the coaches list for ED. Did not get in. We then had to scramble to find another school -- it was already December. Another D3, not as exclusive, the coach jumped at the opportunity that fell into his lap, and my son was admitted immediately. Rolling admissions. He's now doing Fall practices, adjusting to a very demanding schedule, has a shot at starting in the Spring. It's too early to say it all worked out for the better, but at least it worked out.  

Brosenyc sending you PM

brosenyc posted:

My son was recruited by a high academic D3, did an overnight visit, put on a show in an intra squad game with current team members, got on the coaches list for ED. Did not get in. We then had to scramble to find another school -- it was already December. Another D3, not as exclusive, the coach jumped at the opportunity that fell into his lap, and my son was admitted immediately. Rolling admissions. He's now doing Fall practices, adjusting to a very demanding schedule, has a shot at starting in the Spring. It's too early to say it all worked out for the better, but at least it worked out.  

Wow, that really stinks!  Did you have any indication from the coach beforehand that ED was not a lock, or explanation afterwards?  I would think that if this happened with any frequency word would get around and people would know not to trust that program.  Heck, they might tend not to trust any program.

I hope it does work out for the best.

Brose, it would be helpful to learn more as JCG mentioned.....happy to hear it worked out for your son, but had to have been brutal at the time.

We were not totally blindsided, but perhaps led on. Or just as likely, the coach was hoping against hope to get my son on his team despite borderline academic numbers. 31 ACT, but only fair grades. My son has struggled from the beginning with dyslexia and had an IEP. Still gets accommodations in college. We even met with the disability services office when we visited the school and they were enthusiastic about his chances.

It was an incredibly stressful experience for me and my son. He had his heart set on going to the first school but is now getting settled in to his new school and practicing with the team. He expected to be playing first, but the coach needs him at 3B, so I just bought him an infield glove. I guess the metaphor there is to be prepared for anything, and be willing to take the opportunity offered. I'm really proud of my son for the way he has dealt with all of this.

Brian

Oberlin is an NCAC School, and similar to Kenyon as far as ED goes. Coaches have no hooks or tips. I am sorry that this happened. Coaches will request some students go ED, because the student/athlete has a better chance at admittance going Ed than EA or regular admittance. However they have no influence, in the process. 

The former Kenyon football coach was pretty vocal about this in the past. He had issues getting his top choices through admission's. 

What we all want is honesty and transparency with this process.  If Oberlin and Kenyon are upfront about a coaches influence, we can proceed accordingly.  Same on the opposite spectrum where coaches tout being aligned with admissions and indicate things like 99% acceptance if player is on ED (due to coach/admission being on the same page) list.  

What we fear is coach telling a player to do ED, indicating he should be fine...and then receiving news that he doesn't get in.  For these situations, schools and coaches should be called out.

The coaches are in a very difficult situation trying to get the best players they can in a very competitive environment, both academically and recruiting. They have no money to offer, limited influence over admissions, and they know the recruits have other options. In our case, we knew it was not a sure thing. But when your kid has his heart set on a school, and the coach encourages you to apply ED, it's easy to believe that it will all work out in your favor. I'm not upset with anyone. It's just a very confusing system -- and very expensive. The camps and showcases are expensive as are the schools themselves. Here in New York City where I live, lower income kids don't even think about these schools. Unless they've got connections through a high school or travel team coach, they haven't got a chance to be seen. Most go to community college and hope they can transfer to a D1 college down the road. 

Johns Hopkins communicates very well - even if they love a player, if admissions comes back with a vague response on the pre-read which says: "no definitive read", the HC will tell the player "too much risk to go all in with ED for both player and coach".  Unless player is able to bolster score & resume not a good risk to take.

Gov posted:

Brose, it would be helpful to learn more as JCG mentioned.....happy to hear it worked out for your son, but had to have been brutal at the time.

Echo this, Brose. Can't imagine how my son would have reacted to that situation.  It looks like it's really important to know ahead of the ED app that a positive pre-read has been done.  We had that, so I wasn't worried, but, man, looking back I'm counting my son's blessings even more.  Glad there was a decent fall back.  Shows how important it is to have a back up plan.

Gov posted:

Johns Hopkins communicates very well - even if they love a player, if admissions comes back with a vague response on the pre-read which is says: "no definitive read", the HC will tell the player "too much risk to go all in with ED for both player and coach".  Unless player is able to bolster score & resume not a good risk to take.

 

We thought Hopkins was clear, too.

Yes, agree on Hopkins...very upfront about needed SAT scores.  

smokeminside posted:

Gov posted:

Brose, it would be helpful to learn more as JCG mentioned.....happy to hear it worked out for your son, but had to have been brutal at the time.

Echo this, Brose. Can't imagine how my son would have reacted to that situation.  It looks like it's really important to know ahead of the ED app that a positive pre-read has been done.  We had that, so I wasn't worried, but, man, looking back I'm counting my son's blessings even more.  Glad there was a decent fall back.  Shows how important it is to have a back up plan.

It is.  But in my 2017's case, the backup plan was to have no backup plan. Coach said admissions said he was in, and he chose to take them at their word.  It showed a lot of trust.

... or he was just too lazy to do any other applications.

JCG posted:

smokeminside posted:

Gov posted:

Brose, it would be helpful to learn more as JCG mentioned.....happy to hear it worked out for your son, but had to have been brutal at the time.

Echo this, Brose. Can't imagine how my son would have reacted to that situation.  It looks like it's really important to know ahead of the ED app that a positive pre-read has been done.  We had that, so I wasn't worried, but, man, looking back I'm counting my son's blessings even more.  Glad there was a decent fall back.  Shows how important it is to have a back up plan.

It is.  But in my 2017's case, the backup plan was to have no backup plan. Coach said admissions said he was in, and he chose to take them at their word.  It showed a lot of trust.

... or he was just too lazy to do any other applications.

 Trust in our case was huge, too.  The other schools  in the mix said regular admission was fine but they were safety schools in more ways than one. I think if he hadn't gotten in to #1, he would've bagged baseball and gone for the big  U experience somewhere.

I can dimly recall partying at some highfalutin schools back in the day, including the cream of the NESCAC.

... but that's thread drift, and you're correct that the small college and large university experiences are very different in all kinds of ways.

That's impressive, JCG.  I can't remember much at all!

AD2018 posted:

What we all want is honesty and transparency with this process. 

Don't hold your breath, there will be some that are, many that aren't and it will be your fault for not asking the right questions and or listening closely to what was really being said.

I have met many great coaches, one of the things I have seen is the last 6 months I have received several calls from college coaches who recruited my son asking questions about specific kids in my sons old school and or league...and the ones who are following up with me are the same ones who were pretty open and honest during the process.

Every time I get a call about what I think on so and so I just think, you never know  who is watching....I mean hell I am just a nobody parent who kind of gets big picture thinking.

So, it is pretty obvious that some folks here are getting a little lot nervous about applying ED in the coming weeks and believing the D3 Coaches word.  It is so much easier to believe a Coach when (and only when) there has been a positive pre-read, and the Coach has given up (slot, tip) something to get the recruit.  ED application becomes that point when you have to have a leap of faith but also one hell of a contingency plan.  I recall waiting for that ED application approval to be one of the longest six weeks for our family, but I also recall my son communicating with programs to stay in touch.  I wish everyone the best of luck with their ED application. 

My son did not do ED, he did EA. So while I have not been through the process with my son, I still commiserate with users going through the process now. It has to be a huge leap of faith. Good luck to all.