Anyone have experience of the overhead curveball?

That is actually a true curveball. It has a 12-6 break and is sometime referred to as an old fashioned curve ball. Most player tend to throw a "slurve" which is somewhere between a 12-6 curveball and the slider. You have already told us of the "pros" of his curveball. It's hard to hit. The downside is not the curve but the velocity on his fastball which means he will probably rely too much on the curve which could increase the possibility of arm problems.
Fungo

quote:

Originally posted by Fungo:
That is actually a true curveball. It has a 12-6 break and is sometime referred to as an old fashioned curve ball. Most player tend to throw a "slurve" which is somewhere between a 12-6 curveball and the slider. You have already told us of the "pros" of his curveball. It's hard to hit. The downside is not the curve but the velocity on his fastball which means he will probably rely too much on the curve which could increase the possibility of arm problems.
Fungo

Thank you very much. I don't know why his fastball won't go up very much. when he is 13, he clocked fastball 66 and curvebal 60, change-up about 55. At age 14 his fastball still only reach 72. I don't know how to improve his fastball speed. You are right he relied a lot on his curve. When the empire won't give him the close call on the curve. People just hit his fastball like crazy. He do have couple of good games against USSSA major teams. That's with a lot of great defense help by his teammate. Do you have some advices on how to crank up the fastball. Thanks.

quote:

Do you have some advices on how to crank up the fastball.

StarDad,
I guess that has to be the million dollar question. No, I don't have an answer on how to increase velocity other than "long toss" and get professional instructions on proper mechanics. I will tell you you don't have to spend a lot of money ---- but a couple of lessons a year could be money well spent.
Fungo

www.webball.com has a good segment on the use of weighted balls, under/over load to enhance velocity.

Could be that he doesn't have much movement on his fastball.

Sounds like he is throwing from the overhead slot (as opposed to overhand). Most of the pitchers I've know that throw overhead had shoulder problems. And they also had very little movement on their fastball.

quote:

Originally posted by Texan:
Could be that he doesn't have much movement on his fastball.

Sounds like he is throwing from the overhead slot (as opposed to overhand). Most of the pitchers I've know that thrown overhead had shoulder problems. And they also had very little movement on their fastball.

You are right, his fastball doesn't have a lot movements, the only movement I can see is the Down hill movement. Which may or may not produce ground balls. It depends how much spin he put on. Other than that, there's not much in his fastball. If the flatter missed in the middle, it will be a gonna easily. Thanks, the curve should be called as a overhead curve.

I concurr with Fungo and Texan. I am not a big fan of overhead arm slots. Yes, these guys can throw a dandy curve, but at what price? I would get with an instructor and learn a high-3/4 arm slot, but that's just my humble opinion.

As for cranking up the fastball speed and adding movement, here I go. 1) Long-toss year-round.. throwing at least 5-6x week. 2) Get mechanical instruction from a respected instructor. 3) Throw the fastball more and curveball less. 4) To gain more movement, use the 2-seam more. It should sink or tail. 5) When your son throws, is he getting "behind" the ball (applying force in the direction of the plate)? There is SO MUCH more which is why you need to get him instruction, quick.

Stardad


In another thread you refer to the Power Above---perhaps the Power Above has not given your son the body to throw any faster than he does---not every pitcher can throw in the 90's---it is just a fact that their body cannot do it

Four years is a lot of years--I sure hope you don't ruin it for the kid---and I think you are well on the way to doing that

You don't need to throw 90 to be successful at the higher levels of ball.

However, it is very difficult to get the opportunity to show you can be successful at the higher levels of ball if you don't throw 90.

90

This explains how I feel about it!

Stardad says. . . .

quote:

Ball breaks 12 to 6 and tail outside a little bit.

Break/curve and tail/run/sink are opposites. How is this possible?

That would mean it isn't a true 12 to 6, low, but rather it has some tilt.

quote:

Originally posted by Texan:
That would mean it isn't a true 12 to 6, low, but rather it has some tilt.

Texan: This is the way I teach my son to throw this curveball.
First, grip the ball using curveball grip. Then, throw it like a overhead fastball, but at the release point, turn your wrist from 1 to 7 angle, (Note, this wrist action is against most
book suggested, This is my invention), after the release, your hand is in thumb up, fingers down position, let the ball spin forward and at the end break down and tilt little bit outside.
To the physics point, my understand is, when you start with a fastball motion,the most part of the ball will act like a fastball, but when you combined with the curveball grip and
late wrist turn, it will has the curveball action and late break when the forward spin and gravity take it down. The batters are fooled
almost everytime because they think it is a fastball come at them. This pitch is easy for my son to handle, because he throw his fastball
at overhead position, straight up & down all the time, It's impossiable for others to learn,if you throw from 3 quater slot or side arm. Is there any risk for elbow problems? Yes, I think if you didn't throw it right you could hyperextend your elbow. So you must make sure everytime you keep your elbow bend inside after the release. This is my personal pitching research result, it was performed perfectly by my son. Everyone saw this curve was impressed by its late break. We call it 12 to 6 curve, is because there's no numbers in the middle of the clock, his arm angle is not as high as 12 clock. We should call it middle to 6 curve to be exactly. Just food for thought.

Am I out of line??? I think not---how does a poster. stardad, who claims he is here to learn about baseball and knows very little about the game come on the site and begin discussing 12-6 curveballs and how he teaches his son?


DUH !!!!!!

Not at all sure I followed your description. Pretty sure I didn't, actually.

Any hard curve will have late break. A hard curve can be thrown from any arm slot.

Tex,
Sounds like the description of an underhanded slimeball... uh oh, now I'm confused, description, descriptor ???

quote:

Originally posted by Texan:
Not at all sure I followed your description. Pretty sure I didn't, actually.

Any hard curve will have late break. A hard curve can be thrown from any arm slot.

Do they have to raise the am angle to make it 12 to 6? And do they crank up the arm speed or slow down the arm speed?

To me, it's no raise of arm angle (because it's overhead pitch), and crank up the speed not slow down. Is this the same hard curve we are talking about?

A hard curve doesn't have to be a 12 to 6 curve. And as previously said, a hard curve can be thrown from any arm slot. It is a matter of arm velocity being maintained (compared to the fastball), not of arm slot.

quote:

Originally posted by Texan:
A hard curve doesn't have to be a 12 to 6 curve. And as previously said, a hard curve can be thrown from any arm slot. It is a matter of arm velocity being maintained (compared to the fastball), not of arm slot.

If you maintain the arm speed and throw the ball at 3/4 slot or sidearm slot plus a wrist turn, you will soon have elbow problems. What the advange of my son's curve is, he kept his arm speed, and avoid the extention of his elbow, so he can repeatly throw this curve without hurting his elbow. At least the risk is minimum.

Your assertion is not correct. A properly thrown hard curve, from the 3/4 slot, will not do damage provided the curve is not overused. Texan Son, for instance, throws from a low 3/4 slot and has used the hard curve for years now without elbow problems.

Stardad,
Your son increased his velocity 6 mph in one year. He is 14 and throwing in the 70's. If he continues at this rate he will be doing just fine. Also, you said he gets hit pretty hard. How is his location? Can he spot the ball? Does he throw a 2 and 4 seam fastball? Can he locate a change-up? These are areas that I would focus on prior to worrying about the curve. The curve you described (if I follow, sounds like a basic curve other than the fact that you are using a turn of the wrist to impart some spin. Be careful, if you are telling him to twist his wrist, it can lead to injury. It sounds as if he is throwing a modified slip pitch (a beginning curve-ball type pitch taught to those learning a curve.)

Wrist turn at release? That's a no-no. Wrist angle should be pre-set before arm acceleration, actually before shoulder rotation and forearm layback.

Here is a sequence of pictures of Barry Zito throwing his overhand(?) curve and you will see what I mean. Notice how his wrist is already supinated at the high c-o-c-k position and maintains the same wrist position until release.

Terrific illustration XV!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by XV:
Wrist turn at release? That's a no-no. Wrist angle should be pre-set before arm acceleration, actually before shoulder rotation and forearm layback.

Here is a sequence of pictures of Barry Zito throwing his overhand(?) curve and you will see what I mean. Notice how his wrist is already supinated at the high c-o-c-k position and maintains the same wrist position until release.""

That's a total different pitch than my son's. This is a perfect high overhead 12 to 6 curve. My son's curve is starting like a fastball, a lot lower release point. That's why sometimes it looks like a slider, just don't have the slider spin. Not curve like a lolly-pop instead it has a lot of late break.

And it's killing me......and I know what you mean when you say it Stardad.....but What is an OVERHEAD CB.....????.......Overhand CB is the term you are trying to use.......Overhead CB....kinda like using HIND CATCHER......"what position do you play kid?"...."I'm a Hind Catcher. I catch OVERHEAD CB'S."......Just had to throw that in there......

Gents don't waste anymore time on this, this guy is clueless....

Dont know about overhead curve balls. I do know that overthrowing the curve, any curve at this boys age will result in damage to his arm. At 13 ,14 ,15, these boys are still growing and should be developing useing the plate with their fast ball with only an ocassional curve ball, maybe 3 or 4 per game. Over use of this pitch at this age and your boy will never see college ball much less the Majors!!!!

Sounds like the kid is throwing a slider from an overhand slot.