Are grades really important?

I think it depends on the college one is trying to attend. If the driving force is JUST baseball and the player is highly ranked, there are plenty of schools who'll have the ability to flex admission standards to get the player in the door. Once there that player will be guided toward classes, tutors, and a major that might allow them to be academically successful enough to stay on the roster.

Then there are the schools that make few concessions for athletes or coaches when it comes to admissions standards or grades. I know a number of players who hoped to attend particular colleges/universities and whose applications were supported by the coaching staff, but ended up NOT being admitted for no other reason than the admissions staff didn't believe they could be academically accommodated. Really disappointing for the coaches and families. Yes, they ended up playing elsewhere, but not at first choice schools. For a few, the inability to qualify for academic $$ further reduced their ability to attend certain schools, and so they were left with fewer choices than they'd hoped.

My son is very interested in a few of these tough to get into places. He has talked to the coaches and has been advised that the best thing he can do to help them and himself is to concentrate on his grades this year and next, making sure to take and excel at enough AP courses to satisfy admissions, and so that's what he is doing.

With the new recruiting rules grades become more important than ever

I think if you are a stud top-level recruit (like your son, Fungo) or a very highly sought after pitcher, it probably doesn't matter if it is a 3.0 or a 4.0. I think if you play say 3B and you are a good solid player and have a good bat and the coaches would like to have you and you have the chance to pull in academic money and they know they are not going to lose you because of inelegiblity (they don't want to have 3 more 3b on the roster), then all things being equal they might like the higher g.p.a. My son had good grades and a high A.c.T. score and is not a pitcher and I think that helped him. He also took A.P. classes so has 15 hours of credit. Coaches liked that because it gave them more certainty that he would graduate in 4 years.

This answer really depends on the player and the school. Blue chip recruits that are going to college as a route to MLB can take easy classes at many colleges until they are drafted in their jr. year.

For most players however, they are going to school for an education and a career. So in this case, grades DO matter.

It also really depends on the college. In CA, and in many states I'm sure there are ranges of colleges. One of my son's friends is an a very well known CA state school as a freshman bb player. His dad reports school is "easy" this 1st sememster. A check of this schools average gpa/SAT shows that admission is not very competitive at all. 2 more friends play at another CA state school that is the most difficult in CA to get into. One player has a difficult major while his teammate has a much easier major. The degree of difficulty really varies between colleges and majors all over the US.

My son, as a freshman in an out of state private college is being challenged in all his classes. His team has several players that are engineering majors. I guess it really depends on your reason for being in college.

If a player isn't motivated enough in high school to get decent grades then I think he'll be very challenged in college (without lots of help) to stay eligible unless he's taking basket weaving as a major.

Let me tell you how important grades are for many coaches, very.

A coach has to keep a balance to keep their job. If his boss (AD) expresses a desire that he wishes the baseball team or any other team to hold a specific GPA, you have got to find players that will be able to balance out that GPA. So the 4.0 high SAT player with good skills holds an important role for the team, even if he contributes less on the field. In most cases as we know, baseball players usaully come with high GPA's, but the demands usually lower that, the reason for the new penalties of APR. And most coaches negotiate for bonus in their contract if their team performs well in the field and classroom. This is more money in their pocket as well, let alone keeping their job.

When a coach is recruiting you he is looking at the entire package. It's not ALL about baseball. Top prospects usually can get away with lower GPA, then the coach knows he has to recruit someone who works harder in the classroom for it all to balance out. If he sees you as an impact player, and you are an excellent student, you become even more valuable to him. And IMO, he would rather give out academic dollars than baseball dollars. Especially now with 25% minimum. It's more important than ever before to show the coach you work hard on the field AND in the classroom.

In sons case at one school he qualified for academic money, the bb program picking up the balance. At Clemson, 4.2 was not enough because his SAT (taken only once) was too low for their academic money. Since it was early signing, no way did anyone want to wait for the next SAT test, the decision had to be made early. It was apparant he could go to another top program for nothing. And to be honest, we were not in a position to pay for out of state tuition for 3-4 years when we didn't have to pay anything for in state (if he kept up his GPA). He was given all baseball money, and I am sure his 4.2 with advanced classes helped, because they knew he would a safe bet to remain eligible AND contribute in a big way. I am definetly convinced that GPA made the difference for him, he was able to go play and go to school where he wanted to. Because of this, maybe the next guy was either given much less or recruited for his strong academics to qualify for academic money. As a matter of fact, I know that my son won over a scholarship over another player who was better than him (much). Now that player did get drafted and got a lot of $$ out of HS, but he was NOT offered an opportunity because of his GPA to his college choice, which is what we are talking about here. College.

One thing that some have to understand the larger programs give out far less bb $ than most anticipate, they don't have to as Fungo suggests there are many parents willing to pay almost full tuition just so that their sons can play and attend that program and school. If you qualify for academic money, there is much less to pay and in these tough times, with college scholarship money drying up from outside sources, unless you can truely afford 80-100K for your son to play baseball for 4 years, get on his tail to perform as well as he can in the classroom. IMO, your sons hold the key to making the difference in who recruits you and who doesn't by his classroom performance. If you as a parent are going to do all the recruiting work for him, make sure he at least does his part, and that includes getting decent grades.

I am not sure about the comment about blue ship players trying to get by with easier classes. My son did take a less difficult major, but he worked his tail end off for his grades. One thing you realize very quickly playing college ball chances are pretty high that you WILL not be playing baseball for a living, and you become very serious about why you are there. Also, many scout inquiries as to how he did perform in the classroom.

Very good subject Fungo, I've read that schools have what is known as "special admissions" whereby the coach appeals to school to accept a player that does not meet admin qualifications. I believe this was more for football players, maybe BB are included.

If you want to go to Stanford or Ivy League you better have that high GPA and SAT.

quote:

Originally posted by Pop Up Hitter dad:
Very good subject Fungo, I've read that schools have what is known as "special admissions" whereby the coach appeals to school to accept a player that does not meet admin qualifications. I believe this was more for football players, maybe BB are included.

If you want to go to Stanford or Ivy League you better have that high GPA and SAT.

You are correct that happens often, but you have to be an elite player with other attributes (leadership skills, etc) for that to happen. I know too many players and their families who went on the presumption, he's good they'll make an exception but it didn't happen.
IVY League schools often pass many players through without the academic requirements. They can get them money based on financial need. But again, with financial institutions not having sources to obtain those funds, you aren't going to be able to see that happen as often. At many schools there are endowment programs for that, UMiami being one of them. They rely on people who give money for that purpose only. But I heard recently at many schools those funds are not coming through due to our economic state the country is in. People who invest heavily and make profits need to get rid of those profits or they pay big taxes, the endowments are a huge write off for them. It ain't happening these days for many c programs who rely largely on endowments to fund their athletic programs. You become a more attractive recruit these days if you can play and your family has money to pay for your education.
Our economic state will also affect college recruiting, JMO.

The coaches have to ask themselves:

Can I get this kid through admissions?

Even if I can, is he worth using one of my "chits" with admissions to get him in? Because I can only go to that well every so often, not for every single player.

If I get him in, am I going to have trouble keeping this kid in school, so he can play for me?

What will my team's academic progress look like to the NCAA? Will I risk losing part of my 11.7 scholarship allotment?


When you consider all these factors that are important to the success of the coach's program, of course he'll want to know your grades are solid. And if you have two comparable players vying for a spot, one kid with a great record and another only so-so, it's easy to see which one will win out in the recruiting process.

In many cases the 1st words a coach asks are how are your grades. You may not even get to 2nd base with poor grades.

In every situation (from personal experience) the first question asked is: what are your grades and your standardized test scores? This applies across the board, regardless of the academics of the school, top to bottom. It is simple, colleges must know this before they continue any discussions with you.

Take two players, nearly identical baseball talent. One player with strong grades and test scores will get significant attention from many schools - again academically top down from Ivy down. The other player, even with arguably better baseball talent, will likely have little interest because grades and scores are marginal. In fact, interested schools may no longer show interest if grades and scores are not high enough. I believe this second player will eventually find something, but it will be a very difficult road.

Colleges must know that you can survive the college academics while giving so much time to your sport. And from our discussions with many college coaches, no two really work the same with their admissions process. Yes, many are similar, but we did not find any two identical in the manner in which they submit their players for acceptance to the school or the manner in which they award scholarships (whether academic or athletic).

Of course, it becomes a sliding scale between academics and baseball. But if you don't have the grades, you better be awesome on the field, and even then you probably won't get interest from the top tier academic schools.

I think the best way to figure all of this out is to prepare an excel spread sheet with all of the variables at the top and then mark those boxes as they apply to each school.

Oh, yeah, one other thing I forgot, which TPM discusses - if the family has the ability to pay all or some portion of tution, that will add to the player's ability to be recruited. This is obvious - it allows the coach to save money for another player he may want who cannot pay the full tuition (duh).

Again, a total mix of things.


And then the player must be in the right place at the right time to be seen or become known to the coach. With so many players across the country, there have to be many who fit into the same profile for any given school

quote:

Originally posted by Fungo:
My basic question is: If a player is academically eligible, what difference does it matter to a college coach whether or not the player has a GPA of 3.0 or a 4.0? Some will say the higher GPA will get academic money and save the coach's athletic money for another player. I don't think academic money in lieu of athletic money factors into the coach's decision to recruit.

A 4.0 will meet the NCAA's requirement which makes academic aid exempt from the team's 11.7 equivalency limitation. Regardless of a coach's financial budget, he still has to work within the 11.7 limit--if its a fully funded program--- and I think that makes a 4.0 guy relatively attractive, because now the coach may be able to offer financial aid to both the 3.0 and the 4.0 student.

So for equal stud players, the one who needs no money is the most desired by a coach, because he doesn't consume either money or equivalencies. Next most desireable is the 4.0 kid who might eat up less of an equivalency. The 3.0 kid is gonna cost on both budgets.

But of course the kid who barely qualifies is the least desireable, because it may take a lot of effort to keep him eligible.

On the separate issue of entrance to academically selective colleges: every school has entrance requirements, but the real task of the admissions committee is to identify those applicants who have superior odds of benefitting the school, as a student, or in later life, or in death. That's what secures the continued existence of the institution. So for example, Stanford would be very happy to admit Tiger Woods even if he fell a little below their academic standards. (I don't know anything about his academic qualifications.) Superior athletic talent (or non-athletic talents, or serious money) will help gain entry into any NCAA school.

If you really want to know if grades matter why don't you give Bobby Knight a phone call. The last time that I heard someone talk about Coach Knight's academic record he claimed that all but 2 players that played 4 years for him had graduated. What baseball coach can make the same claim to fame?

When Coach Knight spoke with my son about playing basketball for Indiana all he talked about was grades and he followed it up in letter

I think if you took the average GPA among teams that participate in Omaha, the GPA is above 3.0.

Difference between a 3.0 and 4.0 for recruiting purposes, excluding academic funding, is very little concern to the coach (not considering an elite academic institution).
Wether a family can pay is not an issue for the coach, it is an issue for the family.

Academic scholarship $$ is most important to the parents to help subsidize the BB money unless the player will accept being a walk on. (8 slots for walk ons for 2008)

Bottom line: Is the kid a player who can positively impact (tools and attitude) the program and qualify for admission and will he accept the scholarship $$ being offered?

With work, each should be successful academically.

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:
I think if you took the average GPA among teams that participate in Omaha, the GPA is above 3.0.

Bold Statement..........."I think"

I would say that the other 291 teams that didn't make Omaha possibly did well academically.

What does Omaha have to do with it? The CWS is a tournament and doesn't readily identify the best team overall, let alone the best players

Here's my point.
Rice, Standford, UNC, UM, these are just a few schools that regularly play in Omaha. These coaches are not only looking for top talent but GPA as well.

How often do you hear a player say they want to play on a team that gets to teh championship series?
Are grades important to get into these type of schools?

Yes.

Omaha and the CWS TOURNAMENT have nothing to do with it.

The question is simple.......are grades important?

Yes, they produce other financial options to every D1 program. That's all.

OS8,
Cool it, I was giving an example of how grades are important.

Did your son (like many) ever express a desire to play on a team that goes to Omaha?

Mine did, he wanted all his life to go to UM, a regular. Our words to him were "do well in school". Why do you do well in school? So that you broaden your opportunities. So that if you are a good player (you do not have to be the BEST)and a good student, you might be able to achieve your dream. Obviously if those type of teams have those type of GPA's, grades are important when considering who will play for them.

Did you get that correlation? It wasn't meant to be anything other than GRADES can make a difference as to where you might wind up in school.

he may

I would never be one to say that grades do not matter. I know they do, but to what degree, I do not know.

I have been thinking about this lately related to my younger son a senior in hs. With all of the early committment "mania" that is going on around here I have been forced to wonder why some of these players are getting offers who really don't stand out. They have been showcasing the last two years, and for that reason and hearing all the hype about them, I was anxious to see lightning in a bottle. I have not seen that. What I have seen is slightly above average, and not much gain from two years ago to now. My thought process has changed a bit now from this discussion in that perhaps they are "blue chip" academic players and teams need them for 'balance'. This could explain things for me.

I know a player at a high level D-1 that I have been following. He doesn't play a lot, but manages to get some innings in with the four game format.
He is incredibly smart and focused (on his education). I do not think he has playing baseball post college on his mind at all. In fact, he went to Euorpe for the entire summer with his girlfriend and never touched a baseball, just enriched his life.
But, guess what, he is still on the team.

So this can work both ways, my older son was no scholar, good (not great) grades, good (not top tier) test scores, but he had a few other things going for him as well, yes, the much discussed multi-sport athlete, and possessed good leadership skills and a team mentality along with a fun personality.

I guess my point is if coaches and recruiters were looking at grades to fill roster spots with academic money, then all they would need is a PG profile and they could just recruit on paper, never seeing the kid play right, because the kid fit a need they had. They can play decent, and get academic money. Sign them early, which leaves more options for spring signing period.

Now, before anyone gets their knickers in a knot, I am just thinking out loud about theory, and one that I never, ever thought of. The only way I have thought about recruiting is the best of the best in the sport regardless of academia... my own ignorance.

To contradict this thought, my own son was signed early, without showcasing and being a slightly above average (and sometimes very average) student. He received a match made in heaven baseball wise and scholarship wise. There have been some bumps (that he created) in the road, but he has managed and learned from his mistakes. It is life. Year two, just starting has grown by leaps and bounds.

I just don't want any parents or players reading this thread to think that if their player is not a 4.0 that he is out of the running. There are so many intangiables that come into play, I believe such as personality, attitude, chemistry, desire, and leadership, and the team player mentality. These traits are also covetted.

I guess we can all see why collegiate baseball recruiting is such a jigsaw puzzle, and we can rarely figure out the reason why they do the things they do.

Good luck to all, and of course, get the best grades you can, and work hard on and off the field.

Grades are like stats, they don’t necessary help you but they get you dis-qualified. If a school has higher academic requirements a player with low grades/SAT/ACT scores will not be able to get into the school (some special cases), thus limiting your options. If a player has the grades to get into the school, it is just a bonus for a coach where he can see if he can get academic monies vs/or in addition to having to use baseball money, but he will not sacrifice playing ability just due to the player having good grades, but if a school does not have any more money or does not want to use a lot or any baseball money for the position, a comparable skilled player may not want to come on board as a walk-on or for very little money.

Good grades, as indications, do help the program, once in for the APR and to the coach that he may not have to spend extra resources to keeping the player eligible in the spring and even the fall to get to the spring.

This idea of balancing the GPA's does seem to make sense. I know of an east coast kid, good pitcher with velocity, but not unhittable, who was given a major academic scholly to Stanford. The coach only ever saw him throw at an instructional camp. Never in a game or showcase. Obviously the kid is very smart with great grades.
A situation like this keeps the team GPA high and doesn't effect the 11.7 number. Win win for the team and also the kid. Now maybe they can recruit a stud with a 3.6 GPA that may be below the school standards.

quote:

Are grades really important?

Of course!

However, there are many DI players who had average to below average grades in high school.

Just last week a high school pitcher from Illinois with average grades and test scores received "amazing" scholarship offers (one over 90%) from two schools (one ACC, one Big12) Both recognized as top baseball and academic schools. His grades and test score wouldn't have interested these colleges if he wasn't a very "talented" baseball player who is not likely to get drafted high enough to sign out of high school.

1 - Talent
2 - Grades
3 - Make up

Some coaches would switch #2 and #3 in importance. We have seen many kids with talent and grades eliminated from consideration at some schools due to other things.

Bottom line... It's all important! Each program has its own requirements. One thing for sure... Good grades will never hurt and could end up being the big determining factor. Bad grades can take away lots of opportunities.

PG,
I think you summed up nicely what some of us have added seperately.

Make-up can relate to grades as well.
Let's take one of those average guys that works hard at his grades, but somehow just falls short of high marks. Let's say he stumbles badly an fails a class.

On first look, someone could think he is lazy or in trouble. After studying his transcript, you might find that these grades are his best effort, and when he did falter, he took that class over in summer school and improved his grade.

He took the iniciative to correct it over the summer.
I think that relates to make-up.

On another note, I have heard so many students, not just baseball guys, express how bored they are in high school. Once in college lots of kids flourish and finally get those good grades, because they are excited about what they are learning - they were able to seek out subjects of their own personal interest.

fillsfan- I doubt Stanford recruited a kid just because of his grades. They have the pick of talented recruits from all over the US and these kids are talented bb players and great students. The coach obvously saw something in this player to recruit him. Time will tell...

Yes grades do matter. But only if your talented enough for them to want to check on them. Yes make up matters. But only if you are talented enough for them to want to check.

Coach May --- good points.

fillsfan,
I agree with CaBB.
Over the years, I have developed significant respect for the ability of the Stanford coaches to recognize top talent in the recruiting process.
Because of the admissions process, they have a narrow base of high school players they can recruit.
Indeed, some of those kids struggle on the field when they get to Stanford. Some struggle more than others.
But, by and large, at some point, that talent combines with an awful lot of hard work and the players perform.
This year was a classic example. Their catcher this past Spring was drafted #10 in the first round. In his first two years, he struggled, struggled and struggled.
This year, his numbers were off the charts. He was not the only one on this years team to have that type of experience. There were several on the team that made in to Omaha with similar stories, which is one reason this was such a memorable season to watch baseball at Sunken Diamond.
When a player gets recruited to play baseball at Stanford, I readily accept he is a top talent... with tremendous academics.

Well my son was contacted by Stanford. Coach wanted transcripts and test scores. He said if the academics were in order they wanted him to consider attending Stanford. My son is a very good student. But the standards for admission were stringent to say the least. He opted for another fine school instead. You will not be recruited by Stanford unless you are a top notch baseball player and a top notch student as well. They do not compete at the level they do by taking smart good players. They do it by getting smart great players. And they do it very well.

Are grades important? Of course. Just how important depends on where a kid wants to go to college.

Rob , pretty important at Duke were they not? Ha ha ha. By the way the player is home and doing well. I got a steak with your name on it next time your in town. Duke is a beautiful campus isn't it.

Did you get a look at the distance behind homeplate to the stands? If that doesnt motivate a kid to block I dont know what will. Take care.

Coach May:
You can be absolutely certain that I will take you up on that steak! I'm glad your player is going to be OK. What and ordeal.

Coaches said the distance from home plate to the backstop was 120 feet. It looked every bit of that. My son loved it. His high school field is about 20 feet: "Dad, I NEVER get to catch pop fouls. This will be great!"

They are planning a new stadium, and they said they would reduce that distance somewhat in the new field.

The Stanford thing brings back a funny memory. The recruiting guy called up Midlo Son one January day of his junior year (2007) and in the course of a very long conversation, asked for his SAT scores. Son gave just the "traditional" 2-part scores, not including the writing score. Coach asked, "Is that for all 3 parts of the test?" When he found out it was just for 2 parts, suddenly things shifted into high gear. The conversation turned to the level of courses being taken (AP vs. general curriculum), GPA, class rank, etc. -- less focus on baseball, more on the academics.

My understanding is that there is no "thumb on the scales" for athletes at Stanford, at least, not for baseball. So when they find someone they think they can get through admissions, it matters!

I hear Duke is the same way.

Lucky for me, son was ready to commit to Wake at that time. He saved me the expense of a plane ticket to the west coast!

Though frankly I was disappointed -- not in son's decision, mind you, but in losing the excuse to visit out west. I hear Stanford is beautiful!

Stanford e-mails have been about character and grades for my Junior and they have it down to a science with the spacing of the contacts. They want my son to take the SAT immediately, but our school has him taking the PSAT this month and the SAT later in his junior year. I think Stanford has a huge group of 2010 students that they will reduce according to academics and the sooner they can do this the better. They will get so many top students interested that they will recruit a great group of top baseball players by the sheer numbers they start with.

Question though:
How does Stanford get away with calling a recruit in January of the junior year?