Are hs stats meaningless?

Certainly sounds impressive... who knows? College recruiting is a weird bag of tricks.

However, just an FYI - by Googling the write up, I was able to find the player bio very easily, in case you were trying to keep the player's name out of it.

Stats don't tell the whole story. What competition did he play? How short were the fences?

Obviously, the young man has a good amount of skill and other tools to be an invited SEC walk-on.

Possible things working against this player:

If he lives in a state not known for its baseball programs or played for a private school, he may not have seen the best competition. My own son played for a private school during his freshman and sophomore years and it was amazing to see how many .400 and .500 batting averages there were on the team because opposing pitchers were throwing 75 mph meatballs across the plate!

Also, he may not have played for a summer team that got good exposure to many college programs.

I wish the player the very best and hope he finds success in the SEC!

I can answer the question for you. Private school, small classification in Rhode Island. It is hard enough to get noticed in Tennessee at a large school much less a small school in Rhode Island.
I am not saying this is right but that is reality.

Not in reference to this player but in retrospect I now think high school stats can be very misleading.
In our league (son grad in june) the stats for the other teams were so inflated at the end of the season it was a joke. One teams scorekeeper consisted of kids on the bench that kept the books and didn't have alot of bb knowledge. Another team had such inflated stats and played in a terrible league that the stats were very misleading. They played against very small private schools and every player on their team seemed to be batting atleast .600!

It's been said here many times that there are so many variables across the nation that stats can be meaningless. When college coaches come to watch a player the stats are only one part of their evaluation, if at all. They know what they are looking for and the players stats in that league may or may not be a valid indicator of their level of play. My son would be the 1st person to say "Stats don't matter" when I was complaining about stats posted in our local paper.

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I would think he would get more attention than that.

Yep,..one would think or hope so, but it just doesnt always happen.

FUNGO, I hope you can track this kid and let us know how he does at the college level. I'm rootin' for him!!

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Headed to (an SEC school) in the fall,

Maybe he had scholly offers to many schools but his personal "fit" was this particular school and there were no scholarships available at the time

or...

Mom/Dad are alumni and have so much $ that tuition is a "drop in the bucket" and they are saving the school scholly money for other players.

We can sit and guess what the issues are but with those numbers I can only think that his walk on status is deeper than what is written.

My son (RHP) and his HS teammate (OF) were both recruited by and are currently playing at D-1 schools. Neither was ever asked about HS stats during the recruiting process.

We were never asked other than on questionaires and I left that blank.Never used HS video either.

The places that offered my son a ride knew nothing of his HS exploits..knew from PG and other tourneys (Summer showcase tourney's) as well as the college coach network. None of them..well I take it back one of them (Simply because they were from the local area and wanted to know how he did against others who had trained with him) cared at all..that he was named All-this or that (District, North Florida, State..blah blah blah) or that his stats were off the scale...but oh man does he have "old-man" bragging rights when he gets old and wants to reminice .
The coach that he finally accepted a full ride from did see and appreciate the u-tube vid he e-mailed him (Which coincidently was from a select post HS tourney, not HS), but it wasn't the decision maker.

Only bad HS stats have meaning, although good stats sometimes end up in a players bio......if he makes the team.

I might add inaccurate/lack of understanding of scorekeeping is not limited to HS.

Coaches never asked for HS stats but I'll bet they they had an idea what they were. If you time lined the college letters my son recieved a majority fell into a month period after HS all-teams were announced. I don't feel that was a coincidence.

While PG and other showcases and select teams are an important piece of the puzzle, I feel that the HS career does not go un-noticed and plays a big part in the recruiting process.

Now that son is in college, I am confident in saying coaches don't care that much about stats while student is in HS.

Son's college coach did NOT ask:
What's your average?
How many HRs did you hit?

He DID ask:
What's your GPA?
How much can you bench?
What's your 60 time?

Hmmmm...

With all that said, the SID is NOW asking for ALL kinds of stats, for his bio. Not only baseball stats, but son also played football and wants his football stats!
Crazy!!!................

HS stats are meaningful to parents..........

To everyone else they are viewed with skepticisim... They are often some of the most incorrect, untrustworthy, amd often blatantly wrong things in print. Even when recorded correctly they do not take in effect strength of schedule or quality of oppostion faced...

Oftentimes, I see games published that I umpired in....and the game in print does not even match the game as it played out....Batters listed as 4-4 when at best they were 2-4 with blatant errors, pitchers given wins and saves in nonqualifing or no save situations. Stolen bases are poorly recorded.......

the list goes on and on, nice for your scrapbook, pretty useless for anything else...

I live in the same area as CaBB - and love some of the local school stats - where you have hitters with more hits than at bats - a batting average of 1400 anyone?

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When you guys say stats are inflated by teams playing against private schools, be careful. There are some stacked private schools out there that play in very competitive conferences. The top rated high schools in the nation, American Heritage in Florida, Don Bosco Prep in NJ, Bishop Gorman in LV, Crespi Carmelite and Orange Lutheran in SOCAL, Brophy Prep in AZ, St Paul IV in Virginia, Calvert Hall in Maryland and Catholic leagues from California to New York have very competitive leagues and non conference foes. With players on those teams, stats matter a bit more than your average school. Don Bosco had over 10 players commit to D-I...and not all of it was what they did in the summer. They play a tough schedule and attract a lot of scouts to their games.

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When you guys say stats are inflated by teams playing against private schools, be careful. There are some stacked private schools out there that play in very competitive conferences. The top rated high schools in the nation, American Heritage in Florida, Don Bosco Prep in NJ, Bishop Gorman in LV, Crespi Carmelite and Orange Lutheran in SOCAL, Brophy Prep in AZ, St Paul IV in Virginia, Calvert Hall in Maryland and Catholic leagues from California to New York have very competitive leagues and non conference foes. With players on those teams, stats matter a bit more than your average school. Don Bosco had over 10 players commit to D-I...and not all of it was what they did in the summer. They play a tough schedule and attract a lot of scouts to their games.

Well put. Here in Texas, Second Baptist in Houston, Houston Christian School, Prestonwood Christian in Dallas, Argyle Liberty, and a few other larger private schools compete well not only against other strong private school programs, but also against many public schools. In addition, they have had many players receive offers from top D1 programs and be drafted, oftentimes in upper rounds.

A few examples:
* Aaron Thompson,a LHP from Second Baptist High School, was the 22nd pick in the first round of the 2005 Major League Baseball Draft by the Florida Marlins and also received a scholarship to Texas A&M
* Nino Leyja, a SS from Houston Christian, was drafted in the 15th round by the Oakland A's this year
* Liberty Christian SS Carson Blair was selected by the Boston Red Sox in the 35th round of the Major League Baseball draft in June and received a scholarship to Tulane
* In 2007, at least three Prestonwood Christian players had outstanding achievements: Jordan Swagerty was named to the USA Junior Olympic Baseball Team, Hunter Hill was selected in the 38th round by the Texas Rangers, and Cameron Rupp received a scholarship to the Univ. of Texas and was selected in the 43th round by the Pittsburgh Pirates

That said, for every outstanding private school program in America, there are probably 10-20 mediocre ones. (Believe me, as the parent of a former private school player, I've seen my share!) College recruiters know all about the strong private programs, but when considering a prospect from a weaker program, they most likely are a little more suspect of high batting averages and outstanding statistics. For players from lesser programs, it helps to play on a top summer team, where success on that type of team can add legitimacy to the prospect's worth.

IF08,
It helps to play on a top travel team no matter how competitive your high school team is. It's the only way to continue to develop and become a better player..if that's the goal of that player.

In California, while it varies by section, the private schools are the elite teams. Public schools rarely compete against them. It's the same in Las Vegas, Phoenix, New Jersey, Louisiana, and many part of Florida. That's because these HS's are like travel teams themselves...parents that have that travel ball mentality, choose to send their talented sons...which happen to be the best talent from around the area, to these schools due to their reputation as a sports power. DB Prep, Orange Lutheran, Brophy and Bishop Gorman are consistently vying for state titles and national rankings each year in every sport.

As an example, Joe Montana just recently transfered his son from one football powerhouse...DeLaSalle in Northern California.( they own the national high school record for consecutive games won) to Orange Lutheran in Socal, a team that Wayne Gretzky and Will Smith send their sons to play football. That school loads and reloads with talented players from Socal each year in every sport.

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Originally posted by Rounding Third Staff:
IF08,
It helps to play on a top travel team no matter how competitive your high school team is. It's the only way to continue to develop and become a better player..if that's the goal of that player.

In California, while it varies by section, the private schools are the elite teams. Public schools rarely compete against them. It's the same in Las Vegas, Phoenix, New Jersey, Louisiana, and many part of Florida. That's because these HS's are like travel teams themselves...parents that have that travel ball mentality, choose to send their talented sons...which happen to be the best talent from around the area, to these schools due to their reputation as a sports power. DB Prep, Orange Lutheran, Brophy and Bishop Gorman are consistently vying for state titles and national rankings each year in every sport.

As an example, Joe Montana just recently transfered his son from one football powerhouse...DeLaSalle in Northern California.( they own the national high school record for consecutive games won) to Orange Lutheran in Socal, a team that Wayne Gretzky and Will Smith send their sons to play football. That school loads and reloads with talented players from Socal each year in every sport.

Since I live here in CA - Central Coast section - I feel qualified to disagree in part with this - certainly the WCAL private schools in the San Jose region are among the best in the area - but at the same time there are literally dozens of small private schools that are the weakest in the area from a baseball perspective - e.g. CPSAL schools, PSALs, CAL (which is mostly private) etc. I would suggest that Private schools are like public schools - they come in all shapes and sizes and need to be evaluated on an individual basis. Certainly the top private schools are among the best in the nation - my son played against Bishop Gorman and Orange Lutheran and they are both real powerhouses. But there are public schools that also offer fine baseball programs - Aptos last year was an outstanding team, Monterey the two or three years prior was also outstanding.

Maybe it's the stubborness in me but if I was a college recruiter/coach and had a genuine interest in a player I would want all the available data on that player. If I was good at what I did I could then filter the BS and end up with a good picture of what I was getting.

I agree that HS stats are many times fictional, but what's the harm in gathering numbers. If you go on the assumption that all HS stats are "fixed" what about the kid who has legit numbers?

In the North and specifically WI there is limited select team exposure and shorter season lengths. What is a recruiter supposed to base an opinion on without numbers to substanuate the potential value of a player. In the baseball hotbeds you are able to be evaluated against players of similar caliber.

There was a kid from Northern WI whos claim to fame was that he never struck out in a HS game, I know what your thinking, and so did I. He played Legion ball, No select team, no PG, just a small town kid. The kid went on to college led the NCAA D1 in fewest strikeouts as a soph, xferred to Fl State as a Jr, and drafted in the 8th round of the 2007 draft. If the college coach did not take this HS stats seriously the kid would have slipped through the cracks and who knows where he would be today.

HS stats are usually family "puffy chest" reading material. However, If I was a recruiter and the head coach called me to the carpet asking why I didn't find a certain good player, I think the wrong answer would be because he didn't play select baseball and all that was available were his HS stats.

There is never to much data.

Granted this probably wouldn't happen down South or out West, but believe it or not Baseball players do exist all over the country and not every area has all the resources available.

The SID is just trying to make a nice brochure; he or she is going to want every stat known. If the coach has seen the kid play (game, showcase, etc); no stat sheet can trump what he has seen.

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Granted this probably wouldn't happen down South or out West, but believe it or not Baseball players do exist all over the country and not every area has all the resources available.

Was the no K status the reason he went to the D-1 before Fl St.? Or was there other things that brought the attention also?
My personal opinion is in concert with yours actually...and I'd love for all kids to get a "real" shot based on skills and accomplishments, just presenting my perspective..you'd think if a kid absolutely dominated in a bastion of the game such as Florida, that it would carry great weight..I know I did, it just wasn't the case. I mean he was the number 1 rated pitcher in this area for a couple of weeks, mid-season (The only one to actually lower a below 1 era in the midst of the season)..it got him exactly zero looks, zero calls...So unfortunately his record era and historical bench mark were no part of him getting a ride...strange but true.

To answer your question I would say yes. My son plays in the SEC. The freshman bio’s that are on the university's website are supplied the player / parents not the high school. You could write anything you wanted.

I sometime laugh at all state selections. In our state, newspaper reporters that rarely attend any of the games select them. This is no written criteria for selecting players for “All State”

In my part of Florida it's how great the school is..not how good the kid..In Jacksonville it's an exclusive club for Bolles, Bishop Kenny and Episcapl (Sp?) (Player of Year Hunter Scantling can from there..though he was a great choice and a real talent..)..With a smidgen of the other private schools, if you come from a "regular school" you are in line for honorable mention.

College questionnaires usually have a place for HS stats, but I never got the feeling from our interactions with college coaches that they put all that much stock in them.

I agree that bad stats would be meaningful. Just like in statistics, correlation does not prove causality, but lack of correlation can DISPROVE causality (because if A is not correlated with B, A could not have caused B.)

Similarly, having a great HS batting average does not necessarily mean the kid is a great hitter. But having a lousy average almost certainly means the kid is not a great hitter.

Bottom line, they have to see the kid hit. See the bat speed, the approach, the swing itself.

I asked one head coach of a major conference D1 team how he judged whether a kid can make the jump from hitting HS pitching to hitting D1 pitching. He said it was always uncertain. He coached batting in the pros for several years. But he did say that hitting well off of average high school pitching was not really much of an indicator to him.

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Originally posted by Infield08:
Possible things working against this player:

If he lives in a state not known for its baseball programs or played for a private school, he may not have seen the best competition. My own son played for a private school during his freshman and sophomore years and it was amazing to see how many .400 and .500 batting averages there were on the team because opposing pitchers were throwing 75 mph meatballs across the plate!

Also, he may not have played for a summer team that got good exposure to many college programs.

I wish the player the very best and hope he finds success in the SEC!

I second the comment on the smaller private schools. There is only one private school in our area that warrants any looks. All the other private schools (plus some of the small public schools) routinely have players batting .500 plus that never get any looks by the recruiters because of the extremely weak competition. Their recruiting is based strictly on summer competition and from my observations, it is difficult (though not impossible) for these kids to go from pounding meatballs at 75 mph to hitting 85 mph+ fastballs, curveballs, and sliders during the summer.

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Was the no K status the reason he went to the D-1 before Fl St.?

No one else recruited him because all that was available were HS stats and local press accolades and few schools had the foresight to find "diamonds in the rough" in places other than the "select" circuit. My point is that in some parts of the country you can herd all the talent into areas and match them up, and in other parts of the country you have to use the resources dealt to you.

He went to FL State as result of "Cape-napping". That is an old school tactic where elite power schools sucked mid-major players at the Cape Cod and other summer Leagues. The NCAA stopped that with the 1 year transfer rule.

Last year we selected an Aflac All American that pitched 27 innings in HS. He did do pretty well in those 27 innings, but thousands of High School pitchers had much better stats. He was drafted in the first round this year.

This year we selected an outfielder who hit just over .200 for his high school team. We also selected an infielder who hit around .320 for his high school team. The infielder won the home run contest at the Aflac Game and was one of the best prospects there. The player that hit .200 in high school hit closer to .500 playing for one of the nation’s top summer programs.

All that said, I think high school stats are very important. All stats are important in baseball, it’s a game of statistics. At the same time people should realize that stats can be very misleading, so scouts and recruiters don’t place much, if any, weight on them.

Tools and performance against the very best possible competition are what count the most. The stats that can be very important and ones that college recruiters always want to know… GPA and SAT/ACT scores!

My sons first 3 years of HS had,IMO, adequate stats, not great, he played on an average HS team here in FL with average players. His best year was as a senior and he was already signed in the fall.

I don't think that anyone ever asked (except when he went off to college for the media guide) even the coaches who never had seen him pitch. He was recruited being a FB pitcher and his arm strength, # of pitches he threw for strikes and his GPA.

I agree with PG, baseball is a game of stats, but stats can be misleading. I think that the college recruiter that takes stats into consideration and not see the player actually play may be doing his program and the player an injustice. It truely doesn't tell the whole story about a player.

PGStaff is so right about GPA and test scores being the most important and only really relevant stats.

I will never forget my son tripling at a showcase, sliding headfirst into 3rd and then standing up to dust himself off as the third base coach (D1 recruiter) leaned over and started talking to him.

When I asked son later what the coach said to him he replied..."he asked me what I scored on the SAT"

I think we should start a detective service here on the HSBBW. Just give a few "stats" on a person and within hours that person is identified!!

Best of luck to the young man and I will follow his career for the next few years. (or maybe longer)
Fungo

The only HS stats that really matter are: GPA & SAT

They are meaningless in the recruiting process.

You show the tools and the ability to use them in front of a college coach and have the grades to get in and its done. You have the best stats in your state and dont show the tools and the ability to use them in front of the college coaches and they will never know if you have the grades to get in. Why? Because they will never check to see.

HS stats are just for fun. I dont keep a book in the summer. I keep absolutely no stats. I could careless and so could the college coaches. I have never had a college coach ask me about a players stats. They all ask me about their grades. They can see the talent for themselves.

I have to say that I can see both sides of the coin on this one, but leaning more to the side that college coaches probably do care more about the GPA and SAT/ACT when it gets down to the nuts and bolts of it.

Someone said on another post that if the grades aren't there, nothing else really matters. They need to know you are a good student now and will be one down the road.

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Are hs stats meaningless?

no

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In California, while it varies by section, the private schools are the elite teams. Public schools rarely compete against them. It's the same in Las Vegas, Phoenix, New Jersey, Louisiana, and many part of Florida

I'm in Phoenix, and I see a few HS games every year (120 ish)and I can tell you that while Brophy is a good program with a very good coach, they aren't running laps around the public schools. They did win a state title a few years ago, but your statement "public schools rarely compete against them" is totally without merit. The public schools in areas with very proactive parents and aggresive youth baseball programs are generally the strongest in this area.

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Originally posted by Rounding Third Staff:

As an example, Joe Montana just recently transfered his son from one football powerhouse...DeLaSalle in Northern California.( they own the national high school record for consecutive games won) to Orange Lutheran in Socal, a team that Wayne Gretzky and Will Smith send their sons to play football. That school loads and reloads with talented players from Socal each year in every sport.

Actually Montana transferred to Oaks Christian-Westlake Village to play football, the De La Salle head baseball Coach Eric Borba, moved down south to coach Orange Lutheran.

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In California, while it varies by section, the private schools are the elite teams. Public schools rarely compete against them. It's the same in Las Vegas, Phoenix, New Jersey, Louisiana, and many part of Florida.

This is inaccurate; in Florida, unless you are talking about Jacksonville, the Public Schools are much stronger programs than the private schools. (with the exception of a strong program here and there)

Okay - so here's the "Stats of the GPA" question.

There's been a lot of talk about weak v strong high school baseball programs where kids who can hit .500 against weaker competition versus kids who hit .325 in a stronger league.

How do you account for stronger ACADEMIC programs (most often private- but not always), where a kid's GPA might be mid B level -- 3.2 ish versus a higher GPA at a less challenging school (often public - but again, not always).

AND - most colleges now are asking schools to send transcripts with an unweighted GPA - no bonus points for honors or AP classes. So - that can take your 3.7 kid down quite few tenths.

Bottom line is - I am wary of answering the straight up question - what's my kid's GPA because there are so many other factors.

PG Staff - can you weigh in on this?