Are there really absolutes in hitting?

Show me a hitter with no absolutes and I'll show you a hitter with no consistency. IMHO, there must be absolutes! peace, Shep PS(Avatar?)

Shep, who determines what the absolutes are?......

Is this what you mean by diagonal swing plane? peace

You tell me........Where does this swing fit in your picture?

http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/pro?p=37&n=1&m=12&c=4&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=9

Or this????

http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/pro?p=45&n=1&m=12&c=4&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=9

Just saw your question and I would say the actual hitter would establish a framework of absolutes which best fits the bodytype and swing even though there should be some basics to model and build swing after such as Epstein, Mankin, or whoever you believe in...I believe a little from "all of them". peace- AVA?

Hammer>A little unorthodox, but successful, wouldn't you say? Remember Blue, evolving times bring necessary adjustments and nothing is as constant as change. peace-Ava? or,

Shep, for every absolute you can name, there is probably a MLB hitter who defies it.....

So, how do we know what to teach our sons, students, players?......We can listen to the gurus who all differ, and which we can find video to refute what they say we must do, or we can keep searching......

I vote for keep searching.....

You're right brother, we need to keep searching and never find the Holy Grail of Hitting.

He who continues to seek, will gain even more knowledge as the complacent ones stand still-Shepism

Avatar?

quote:

Hammer>A little unorthodox,

Unorthodox???...I'm not so sure....He did something that must be common to the world's best hitters ever, IMO......

In scouting, we call it RAW PWR w/ NORMAN ROCKWELL existence peace-Ava?

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Remember Blue, evolving times bring necessary adjustments........

Shep, can't say I would think Hank should have changed a thing about his swing.....Frankly, I think we should learn more about what he was doing, actually.....The results of that swing were quite remarkable....

What else is there to learn about 755/44? It's the hands, wrists & forearms that compensated for the forward slide in hip rotation. Hank had what I like to call, "the gift". peace-Ava?

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It's the hands, wrists & forearms that compensated for the forward slide in hip rotation

So, do you think this should be taught?.....

Hank was good, ya know.....

Blue, I agree to keep searching......for what makes each individual hitter more efficient and consistent.

Grateful, do you believe there is something that MLB hitters are doing that should be emulated, but, we, so far, haven't figured it out?

Babe, live>click

Oh Babe, What Would You Say? Click this friends>

Shep, thanks for that Christmas thought......

Way to Go BlueDog!!! Merry Christmas Brother!!!

Why do we discuss and dissect swing mechanics so extensively, and the mental approach to hitting almost never?

I see so many kids whose swing mechanics have been trained and cultivated, and yet they have such terrible at bats over and over. Bad pitch recognition, swinging at the wrong pitch at the wrong time, chasing balls out of the zone, trying to pull everything or trying to go to right ALL the time -- all sorts of MENTAL issues at the plate.

Don't we have any gurus on the MENTAL aspects of hitting?

Teach 'em proper mechanics and stay out of their way and let 'em hit goes a long way.....

A hitter swinging at a bad pitch is one thing, but not hitting that bad pitch is another....I don't care what pitch the hitter swings at, as long as he hits it....

Hitters become mental when coaches get in their heads.....Teach 'em, leave 'em alone and let 'em hit......Third base coaches are the biggest culprits, IMO......

Bluedog, You must love Ichiro?

I agree get out of the hitter's way.

Sometime's a game is all about Momentum.
EH

EH, hitters need to clear their minds in the box.....Yogi was right, you can't think and hit.....

When you got hitters doing dumb stuff in the box, it's time to look at what you and your coaches are doing, IMO.....Somebody's getting in the hitters' heads....Get 'em out....Tell the guy in the third base box to coach his runners and leave the hitter alone.....Let him hit, please.....

I hope you agree 'cause it's refreshing to find someone who realizes the value in doing this.....

I do agree with that approuch, Let them hit.

Quit thinking, Start hitting.

I also believe that hitting is contagious.
Momentum?

BlueDog and MidloDad have hit on something here dear to my heart. Alot of kids have a clue untill they step in the box. You can watch them in the cage or in bp and they have a great approach. Then they get in the box and it all goes out the window. Coaches that try to coach while a kid is trying to hit. Learn to take your swing and approach to the plate in a game situation. Because in the end all the matters is your ability to produce in the game. Game day is not the time to teach a kid how to hit. And when they are in the box 100% of there focus should be on what they are doing not the coach or anyone else. Leave them alone and let them hit. My motto "If you have to coach them and teach them during the game you have not done your job in practice".

I know what you guys are getting at, but there is a lot more to the game than just letting the hitter ignore the 3B coach and hit.

I do agree that teaching hitting has to happen before and/or after the game.

Also as Midlodad mentioned... What makes one hitter better than another when they both have the same size/strength and the same exact swing?

A few things I can think of...

1 - More Natural Talent
2 - More Reps
3 - Better Competition
4 - Better Vision
5 - The MIND!

Then again, do any two hitters have identical swings?

Something told me to get up and ck boards. Just rolled out of bed thinking Light Tower HR's

Here's a few more attributes or positive things scouts look for to go along with PG Jerry's list:

1-Proper hitting approach(ROTATIONAL or LINEAR)
2-Slight uppercut(EX: Sandman's 4 degree to 20 degree Gonzo illustration in Zone Thread)
3-Uses entire field(EX: Drives outside pitches to opposite field)
4-Aggressive at plate(Fearless Plate Coverage)
5-Ball jumps off bat(EX: See and hear Derek Lee's BP clip in Zone Thread for good example)
6-Good bat speed
7-Quick wrists
8-Good eyes
9-Good trigger
10-Can bunt
11-Fluid stroke(Graceful)
12-Patient hitter(establishes strike zone)
13-Live bat(Gunfire sound at contact w/ wood)
14-Fluid, EZ, Rhythmic swing, Relaxed at Plate
15-Power: strength, extension, and quickness for HR PWR. Awesome HR PWR! Raw Strength for awesome HR PWR w/ Light Tower PWR!

Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays HSBBW!
Peace to all and to all a good night!
Until next time, so long! Shep

More live Babe>click this

Dog, interesting topic for sure and something I've been thinking about of late...

The numbers strongly suggest that the horizontal swing plane is more conducive to making contact WITHOUT compromising power.

Take a look at these career K per AB percentages of some of the old timers with their horizontal swing planes vs current day
hitters with their diagonal swing planes:

Di Maggio 5%
Musial 6%
T Williams 9%
Ott 9%
Gehrig 10%
Aaron 11%
Williams 11%
Banks 13%
Mays 14%
Kiner 14%
Robinson 15%
Foxx 16%
Mathews 17%
Killebrew 21%
Mantle 21%

Pujols 11%
Vlad 12%
Sheffield 12%
Palmeiro 13%
Bonds 15%
Griffey 18%
Arod 21%
Manny 22%
McGriff 22%
Delgado 24%
Mcquire 25%
Sosa 26%
Canseco 27%
J Thome 30%

Is it a coincidence that guys like Pujols and Sheffield, considered unique in today's game having much flatter swing planes, have the lower K per AB ratios. Realize hitting is more than just swing plane but the numbers are hard to ignore! PEACE

For the second time, those percentages represent nothing but how money has changed the game.

The long ball = a big paycheck. Strike outs accompany the long ball.

I see no correlation between the swing plane and the strike out. In fact, a strong case could be made that the diagonal plane is more conducive to contact than the horizontal plane.

One of the reasons the batplane was "somewhat" more horizontal in the ole days might have something to do with the heavier bats the old-timers used. Bet if you did a little research with Louisville Slugger Bat factory in KY that you will find the handles were thicker and the bats were much heavier with the players you have listed from old era vs the thinner handles and tapered off bats of the new era.

Babe Ruth used a 56 ounce bat himself which looked like a tree. Ya think he could get that 3 1/2 pound bat into a diagonal swingplane, even if he wanted to?

Merry Christmas to you and yours NY DAD, as well as all of you here at HSBBW messageboard.

Peace,
Shep

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Is it a coincidence that guys like Pujols and Sheffield, considered unique in today's game having much flatter swing planes, have the lower K per AB ratios. Realize hitting is more than just swing plane but the numbers are hard to ignore! PEACE

I wonder to what extent the change in pitching has altered the K/inning ratio. In earler times, a pitcher may have started 45 games during the season, and completed 41 of them. Today, a starter is asked to go 6 innings and give way to a fresh arm. Batters face fresher arms today, and I'm guessing those arms have a better arsenal of pitches.

Excellent point WayBack and yet another reason why the K/AB & K/IP ratio is so skewed between present and past, with the hitters and pitchers. peace, Shep

Some history...

http://www.stevetheump.com/Bat_History.htm

Some research....

http://www.kettering.edu/~drussell/bats-new/batw8.html

Thanks BlueDog! Now that was interesting! peace

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For the second time, those percentages represent nothing but how money has changed the game

The long ball = a big paycheck. Strike outs accompany the long ball..

Since when did percentages become irrelevant in baseball and your statement that the KO accompanies the long ball supports the argument as the point was the KO didn't accompany the long ball nearly as much with the old-timers and their horitzontal swing planes.

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I see no correlation between the swing plane and the strike out. In fact, a strong case could be made that the diagonal plane is more conducive to contact than the horizontal plane.

Please state your case regarding the diagonal plane and while your at it perhaps you can also explain why guys like Pujols and Sheffield with more of a horizontal swing plane than most of todays hitters have the best lifetime K to AB ratios of todays hitters. PEACE

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Babe Ruth used a 56 ounce bat himself which looked like a tree. Ya think he could get that 3 1/2 pound bat into a diagonal swingplane, even if he wanted to?

Shep, Ruth wasn't on that list