Are Travel Teams and Showcases Beneficial to Pre High School Players
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Hey Dibble. I have never thought so. The best one for me is the 8 and under travel teams. Do you have to bring the crayons on the trip. We did on the high school bus, but they were for me. Anyway, we can do better by instructing these youngsters on how to properly throw, catch, run and hit before we subject them to "competition". Those wins mean absolutely nothing at that age. In high school, the win has a little more importance, but it really doesn't matter until someone pays you to play. I had a high schooler recently come to me for pitching instruction. He had played on at least 3 teams a year since he was 8 and this kid and his folks were clueless as to his mechanics and understanding of the game. It took me 6 months to get him some form, his was so bad, but because he could throw hard, the travel team coaches all wanted him. They didn't bother to teach him anything. I am making it my life long pursuit to teach kids anytime I can and sometimes for free.
Coachric
Coachric
Travel teams? I think so...just have to maintain the proper perspective. Showcases? I don't see the point.
Older son started at 13...I really think his game took a huge leap forward after about a year of that and certainly got him much more ready for HS ball. Now he's a D1 pitcher.
Younger son started at 10, while concurrently playing in the local rec. league. More than anything, he and his teammates now (age 13) know the game much, much more than their peers. And I think love the game too. Will it ultimately help them? Well, for one they have twice made it to the US West Zone for PONY Baseball (as 10's and 12's)...thats a nice accomplishment that they'll never forget no matter what. But we will have to wait and see if it pays off in HS and beyond. BTW, the goal was never "beyond"...it was really only to help them improve within their local area.
Older son started at 13...I really think his game took a huge leap forward after about a year of that and certainly got him much more ready for HS ball. Now he's a D1 pitcher.
Younger son started at 10, while concurrently playing in the local rec. league. More than anything, he and his teammates now (age 13) know the game much, much more than their peers. And I think love the game too. Will it ultimately help them? Well, for one they have twice made it to the US West Zone for PONY Baseball (as 10's and 12's)...thats a nice accomplishment that they'll never forget no matter what. But we will have to wait and see if it pays off in HS and beyond. BTW, the goal was never "beyond"...it was really only to help them improve within their local area.
What we did with our LL was play the regular season and then have a travel team that played plus or minus 30 games over the summer months
We saw it as best of both worlds---the regular season in town and then the best players playing the best players from other towns
We saw it as best of both worlds---the regular season in town and then the best players playing the best players from other towns
TR
You must truly be in the Holiday Spirit. You didn't Rake Dibble -- no drivel?
You must truly be in the Holiday Spirit. You didn't Rake Dibble -- no drivel?
mr Mom
New year--he aint worth the effort any longer--I am getting too old to deal with children
By the way thanx for the tip on the Jersey kid a few months ago
New year--he aint worth the effort any longer--I am getting too old to deal with children
By the way thanx for the tip on the Jersey kid a few months ago
Depends on the player. In our case, definitley. Our LL is very very weak and there is no competition. Played the same team 10 times this year. What my son has learned in travel ball can not compare to what LL teaches. He knows the basics and is ready to move on from that (he still works on them but doesn't need a whole practice spent on throwing off the correct foot). The experiences as well are unforgetable. He is on a great team that has just geled together and enjoys being kids together. As far as showcases? Sounds exciting and as much as I think my son is great--he is only 12. We have time to worry about later. Merry Christmas!
Dibble,
IMO, there is no reason for any type of showcase before high school. Showcases are pretty much try outs used to get exposure for players. Before high school, there is no need for it.
On the other hand, I strongly believe that travel ball, when done right, is the best place to learn and practice baseball skills.
Coachric,
It sounds to me like you have run into some bad travel experiences. I'm sorry to hear it. I know there are some questionable coaches all over...travel, youth leagues, high schools, and everywhere else. You sound like you are a teacher...be proud of that. Keep getting kids prepared for the next level.
Not all travel coaches are win-at-all-costs types. As a matter of fact, most of the ones (not all) that I personally know coach for all the right reasons. They give kids the opportunity to learn the skills, properly drill them, and greatly enhance their chances of getting to the next level.
Hope you have a great 2006.
Mike F
IMO, there is no reason for any type of showcase before high school. Showcases are pretty much try outs used to get exposure for players. Before high school, there is no need for it.
On the other hand, I strongly believe that travel ball, when done right, is the best place to learn and practice baseball skills.
Coachric,
It sounds to me like you have run into some bad travel experiences. I'm sorry to hear it. I know there are some questionable coaches all over...travel, youth leagues, high schools, and everywhere else. You sound like you are a teacher...be proud of that. Keep getting kids prepared for the next level.
Not all travel coaches are win-at-all-costs types. As a matter of fact, most of the ones (not all) that I personally know coach for all the right reasons. They give kids the opportunity to learn the skills, properly drill them, and greatly enhance their chances of getting to the next level.
Hope you have a great 2006.
Mike F
No.
John
I totally agree
Pre HS kids should be playing baseball and having "fun"
I totally agree
Pre HS kids should be playing baseball and having "fun"
Maybe travel ball in the summer for a few weeks as an extension to little league and/pony - but not more than local/in state in my mind. Once you hit eighth grade, then perhaps a little more serious travel ball (e.g. once you play 60/90.)
Showcases are for sophomores and up...
Showcases are for sophomores and up...
Just curious--why not travel ball? And as for having fun, my son is having way more fun playing kids that are at his level than he ever did playing LL. The play baseball hard and as soon as the game is over, they just play hard. I see no harm in playing baseball with like minded players, coaches that aren't necessarily out to "showcase" their sons, and boys that enjoy hanging out and being friends. There is nothing my son would rather do than hang out with teammates or play ball.
Good comments all. I have however traveled extensively for clinics, coached tournamemts and scouted in many areas, and I find less and less quality instruction. To those that care to teach instead of just winning, congrats and keep it up. Its not just about the kids, its only about the kids.
Coachric
Coachric
I’m with justbaseball, BBfam and most others (sorry BeenthereIL); yes to travel ball, but no to showcases. Pre-high school players usually play where their parents put them and parents have different reasons for placing their kids on a team. Pushing your son on to a travel team can be a mistake if he's not ready. When my son was 11 I put him on a 13u travel team because it was frustrating to him to have to ‘lob’ the ball to first base so his rec ball teammates could catch it. I felt as if I was putting him on a team where he FIT. If you fit on the team you play for, the game will be fun. The thrill of victory is directly proportional to the size or difficulty of your challenge. While recreational baseball is a challenge (and rewarding) for many players, to my son it was boring because there was no challenge.
While I disagree, I can understand why a parent of a pre high school player would showcase their son. Showcasing has taken on a dual personality. I always looked at a showcase as nothing more than a place to showcase your talent in front of college coaches in hopes of playing college baseball. Others look at attending the showcase as an accomplishment. I am puzzled when I read players’ bios and they list ATTENDING a showcase as an accomplishment. Just because you climb into the ring doesn't make you a boxer.
Fungo
While I disagree, I can understand why a parent of a pre high school player would showcase their son. Showcasing has taken on a dual personality. I always looked at a showcase as nothing more than a place to showcase your talent in front of college coaches in hopes of playing college baseball. Others look at attending the showcase as an accomplishment. I am puzzled when I read players’ bios and they list ATTENDING a showcase as an accomplishment. Just because you climb into the ring doesn't make you a boxer.
Fungo
I was just wondering if a young kid that isn't ready to compete with the big boys at a showcase and doesn't show well can be pigeon-holed for years to come. Why the hurry I don't see the point of going to showcases before becoming a Junior.
While a showcase guarantees nothing,it helps when you are trying to look at a particular school. For a person like me,who will likely go out of state to play college baseball, going to a desired schools showcase will help by putting my name out there
quote:Are Travel Teams and Showcases Beneficial to Pre High School Players
Travel teams are because of the better competition, Showcases are good after your freshman year in HS.
Play Dog,
I could give you many examples of those who overcame the so called pigeon hole. Also, you are correct, if you can not compete, there is no sense in traveling to any baseball event unless you're traveling for instruction to learn how to get better.
There are many who will agree with you about not going to a showcase before your junior year. Some of these are great baseball people who I have the utmost respect for. However, I disagree with them on this count.
If you have talent, there is no sense in hiding it. The sooner everyone realizes you have real talent, the more opportunities there are. Once again I could give hundreds of examples, but it would just look like promotional stuff.
Don't want to sound big headed here, but we do not need to promote anything. When people understand that to be true, they will probably read a bit closer.
I understand the importance of that year before the senior season. In years past, I would have agreed completely with those who think it's the only important time. I still agree, whole heartedly, that it is the MOST important time. We do some of the biggest events in the country based on that. Most of the players who attend those big junior/senior events we have discovered before they reached that age.
Regarding travel ball... If it's fun and not hurting others... what could possibly be bad about it? Everyone just needs to remember... it's about the kids... It's the kids who need to enjoy it. If that is happening it's great that the adults enjoy it too. I do think there are some who are involved for all the wrong reasons.
I could give you many examples of those who overcame the so called pigeon hole. Also, you are correct, if you can not compete, there is no sense in traveling to any baseball event unless you're traveling for instruction to learn how to get better.
There are many who will agree with you about not going to a showcase before your junior year. Some of these are great baseball people who I have the utmost respect for. However, I disagree with them on this count.
If you have talent, there is no sense in hiding it. The sooner everyone realizes you have real talent, the more opportunities there are. Once again I could give hundreds of examples, but it would just look like promotional stuff.
Don't want to sound big headed here, but we do not need to promote anything. When people understand that to be true, they will probably read a bit closer.
I understand the importance of that year before the senior season. In years past, I would have agreed completely with those who think it's the only important time. I still agree, whole heartedly, that it is the MOST important time. We do some of the biggest events in the country based on that. Most of the players who attend those big junior/senior events we have discovered before they reached that age.
Regarding travel ball... If it's fun and not hurting others... what could possibly be bad about it? Everyone just needs to remember... it's about the kids... It's the kids who need to enjoy it. If that is happening it's great that the adults enjoy it too. I do think there are some who are involved for all the wrong reasons.
To Perfect Game
what is the value of a pre HS player attending a showcase ( for example
2005 Southern California "Pre HS" Prospect Showcase Reports
http://www.perfectgame.org/newplayers_list.cfm?tn=05phs
what is the value of a pre HS player attending a showcase ( for example
2005 Southern California "Pre HS" Prospect Showcase Reports
http://www.perfectgame.org/newplayers_list.cfm?tn=05phs
Thanks PG.
Dibble,
I can't answer your question right now. 3 or 4 years from now I might be able to answer with some accuracy. In fact, I will certainly be able to answer your question 3 or 4 years from now.
Even then it would take some serious understanding on your part to realize the advantages of these type events.
In the mean time, Why do you ask?
We will be doing underclass events in both California and Florida real soon. Write down the names of the best players from these events and check to see how things turn out for these young players.
It is easy to say it would have happened anyway, after the fact. When you look at the best players who attend the PG National, East Coast Pro, Area Codes, Aflac, etc. - Check to see how many were at these underclass events before that. Maybe they serve no purpose, and maybe they do!
There's a good reason that the Midland Redskins, Florida Bombers, East Cobb, ABD and other top programs are there watching.
Those interested in finding the best young players are there. So it's a pretty good place to be if you're one of the best young talents.
I'm kind of surprised that you would be asking what the value is! It could be the beginning of being nationally recognized as a legitimate baseball prospect.
If a player is really good should he wait before allowing people to know?
I can't answer your question right now. 3 or 4 years from now I might be able to answer with some accuracy. In fact, I will certainly be able to answer your question 3 or 4 years from now.
Even then it would take some serious understanding on your part to realize the advantages of these type events.
In the mean time, Why do you ask?
We will be doing underclass events in both California and Florida real soon. Write down the names of the best players from these events and check to see how things turn out for these young players.
It is easy to say it would have happened anyway, after the fact. When you look at the best players who attend the PG National, East Coast Pro, Area Codes, Aflac, etc. - Check to see how many were at these underclass events before that. Maybe they serve no purpose, and maybe they do!
There's a good reason that the Midland Redskins, Florida Bombers, East Cobb, ABD and other top programs are there watching.
Those interested in finding the best young players are there. So it's a pretty good place to be if you're one of the best young talents.
I'm kind of surprised that you would be asking what the value is! It could be the beginning of being nationally recognized as a legitimate baseball prospect.
If a player is really good should he wait before allowing people to know?
I'm catching the end of this discussion but I think that both travel teams and showcases are beneficial to players. But they have to be the right travel team and the right showcase.
Perfect Game is very pro travel ball and you can see that in how their tournaments are run and the quality of the teams in their events. We go to their two 18U events and will probabaly send our new 16U team to the 17U WWBA this summer. We do not have a pre-high school team so I may be posting this in the wriong thread.
The Underclassman event is one of the best showcase events in the country for underclassman. I take that back. It is the best event. I can't name anything close to it.
PG notes that top summer teams go there to scout. That is 100 percent correct and PG has done a great job helping teams like the Renegades find players. In fact, we will have three coaches at this event - two coaching PG teams and one just scouting for our new 16U team. We're there for two reasons. To help PG have quality coaches at theri events and to scout the talent during the event.
There are teams that do not allow players to attend showcases during their season. For the most part I agree with that. Your priority must be to your travel team. However. our exceptions during both the fall and summer are PG events (because we know the quality of the events) and the East Coast Professional Showcase (another great event), and the AFLAC game. Of course Joplin is an exception too as playing for TEAM USA is an honor. We promote to PG as many of our players for their national event as possible because it is the very best scouting showcase in the country.
But not all showcases are as good for players as PG. There are many little showcases that are not going to help you child. I had one recently call some of our kids comparing themselves to PG and suggesting that kids who were invited to the PG World Showcase not attend. My question to the kids was if they are "like" PG why not go to the original. Of course this group is not "like" PG. There are a lot of showcases, especially here in Florida, trying to make money off the kids If I'm correct there was a showcase company trying to get kids into a showcase during the Jupiter event this year.
I'd suggest that going to PG events can be very helpful because their word is gold in the scouting community. While many travel coaches can say that - not many showcases can do that.
Perfect Game is very pro travel ball and you can see that in how their tournaments are run and the quality of the teams in their events. We go to their two 18U events and will probabaly send our new 16U team to the 17U WWBA this summer. We do not have a pre-high school team so I may be posting this in the wriong thread.
The Underclassman event is one of the best showcase events in the country for underclassman. I take that back. It is the best event. I can't name anything close to it.
PG notes that top summer teams go there to scout. That is 100 percent correct and PG has done a great job helping teams like the Renegades find players. In fact, we will have three coaches at this event - two coaching PG teams and one just scouting for our new 16U team. We're there for two reasons. To help PG have quality coaches at theri events and to scout the talent during the event.
There are teams that do not allow players to attend showcases during their season. For the most part I agree with that. Your priority must be to your travel team. However. our exceptions during both the fall and summer are PG events (because we know the quality of the events) and the East Coast Professional Showcase (another great event), and the AFLAC game. Of course Joplin is an exception too as playing for TEAM USA is an honor. We promote to PG as many of our players for their national event as possible because it is the very best scouting showcase in the country.
But not all showcases are as good for players as PG. There are many little showcases that are not going to help you child. I had one recently call some of our kids comparing themselves to PG and suggesting that kids who were invited to the PG World Showcase not attend. My question to the kids was if they are "like" PG why not go to the original. Of course this group is not "like" PG. There are a lot of showcases, especially here in Florida, trying to make money off the kids If I'm correct there was a showcase company trying to get kids into a showcase during the Jupiter event this year.
I'd suggest that going to PG events can be very helpful because their word is gold in the scouting community. While many travel coaches can say that - not many showcases can do that.
I've said this before, so I'm probably belaboring the point... I have no problems with pre-HS travel teams, but I really disagree with pre-HS showcases.
I think showcases and ultra-competitive travel teams (mentioned by PG above) at this pre-HS age get hopes too high too early, cuts off hopes of others too young. I think it tears at the fabric of community baseball (takes kids away from their local leagues and teams) which in turn may diminish the developing fan base for baseball. I think it could ultimately drive talented kids away from HS baseball (see HS s****r example in Calif.) and I think it begs for kids to 'not-be-kids' at yet a younger age.
I highly respect PG and I will admit that my older son could've joined the showcase circuit a year or so earlier than he did but it worked out fine (lucky?). I also think the only 'sure-thing' is a 6'-8" 8th grade basketball player and the 1 or 2 Robert Stocks each year. And I think the goal of a pre-HS player should be to make his HS team in a year or two. I also miss the days when kids just went to the local park to play baseball and made up their own rules...but I am seeing that I may be a dinosaur in these thoughts.
I wish it wasn't happening...local HS coaches I have much respect for share my thoughts on this, but I'll probably be proven wrong in just a few years.
I think showcases and ultra-competitive travel teams (mentioned by PG above) at this pre-HS age get hopes too high too early, cuts off hopes of others too young. I think it tears at the fabric of community baseball (takes kids away from their local leagues and teams) which in turn may diminish the developing fan base for baseball. I think it could ultimately drive talented kids away from HS baseball (see HS s****r example in Calif.) and I think it begs for kids to 'not-be-kids' at yet a younger age.
I highly respect PG and I will admit that my older son could've joined the showcase circuit a year or so earlier than he did but it worked out fine (lucky?). I also think the only 'sure-thing' is a 6'-8" 8th grade basketball player and the 1 or 2 Robert Stocks each year. And I think the goal of a pre-HS player should be to make his HS team in a year or two. I also miss the days when kids just went to the local park to play baseball and made up their own rules...but I am seeing that I may be a dinosaur in these thoughts.
I wish it wasn't happening...local HS coaches I have much respect for share my thoughts on this, but I'll probably be proven wrong in just a few years.
Merry Christmas!
I stand firmly with justbaseball on this issue and his post was a very good post. He’s been there and done that. There has to be a point that showcasing and "high profile" teams become somewhat counter productive to youth baseball in general. The only reason I belabor this issue is because I agree with what justbaseball says:
There is a thin line in doing the right thing and doing the wrong thing when your son is pre high school age. You have to take all the options your son has and custom design a course of action for HIM. It’s very difficult to determine what the goal of a pre high school player is or should be. Probably what justbaseball says "Make his high school team in a year or two" would be realistic goal for 99% of the players (mine included). I custom designed a course of action for my son and yes, I put my son on a 13u travel team when he was 11 and I showcased him after his freshman year of high school. People took note of what I did and since my son played D-1 baseball and was drafted I guess I have etched a template for success. WRONG! What my son did would have been catastrophic for most players. Actually I was sending the wrong signal to the other players in his town. I put my son on the travel team because that is where his talent dictated he play. Few if any other 11 year old should have been there. I showcased him during his freshman year ONLY to see how showcases operated and to get him accustomed to the process. He was the only freshman at the event. Most freshmen would have been intimidated. He never showcased his sophomore year and went to only one showcase (Midwest Prospects) during his junior year. Again, not the best route for most players and could possibly hurt a lot of players.
The people that are controlling the direction of youth baseball are clueless as to what is happening. It’s not the coaches or the showcase promoters it’s the parents that are doing this. Parents control where their kids play and go before they go to high school. “High Profile” national 12 year old teams aren’t needed unless ALL the other players have left town to play on the “high profile” 12u teams and then they almost become mandatory. This whole youth baseball movement has turned into a catch 22 and actually creates more inequities than opportunities. Here’s the way it happened. One day a great baseball person said: “Parents of talented players needs to put their sons on a travel team”. So every parent in the town signed their sons up on travel teams and created even more travel teams. Seeing nothing but “watered down” travel teams he then said : “Parents of talented players needs to put their sons on a SELECT travel team” So every parent in the town signed their sons up on SELECT travel teams and created even more SELECT travel teams. Now we’re starting to hear an emerging message that says: “If your son is a talented player you need to showcase him early because the really good high profile highly select national travel teams are using this to select the best players and these are the ones that will “make it”. If your son is truly a great baseball player and your phone rings wanting your son to join their cause just remember ... they need your son much more than he needs them. I’ll take some heat for saying this but in reality it’s the players that make the select team and the showcase successful, not the other way around.
Florida baseball guy and PGStaff you can breathe easy. My voice is but one small voice that even in by my own admission is somewhat hypocritical. To all the parents...you need to do what is best for your son. Someday when it’s all over we will understand the kid/baseball thing a little better. Justbaseball I'm confident you will not be proven wrong. In the meantime I hope everyone enjoys this beautiful Christmas day, be thankful for your son, and appreciate him for what he is.
Fungo
I stand firmly with justbaseball on this issue and his post was a very good post. He’s been there and done that. There has to be a point that showcasing and "high profile" teams become somewhat counter productive to youth baseball in general. The only reason I belabor this issue is because I agree with what justbaseball says:
quote:get hopes too high too early, cuts off hopes of others too young. I think it tears at the fabric of community baseball
There is a thin line in doing the right thing and doing the wrong thing when your son is pre high school age. You have to take all the options your son has and custom design a course of action for HIM. It’s very difficult to determine what the goal of a pre high school player is or should be. Probably what justbaseball says "Make his high school team in a year or two" would be realistic goal for 99% of the players (mine included). I custom designed a course of action for my son and yes, I put my son on a 13u travel team when he was 11 and I showcased him after his freshman year of high school. People took note of what I did and since my son played D-1 baseball and was drafted I guess I have etched a template for success. WRONG! What my son did would have been catastrophic for most players. Actually I was sending the wrong signal to the other players in his town. I put my son on the travel team because that is where his talent dictated he play. Few if any other 11 year old should have been there. I showcased him during his freshman year ONLY to see how showcases operated and to get him accustomed to the process. He was the only freshman at the event. Most freshmen would have been intimidated. He never showcased his sophomore year and went to only one showcase (Midwest Prospects) during his junior year. Again, not the best route for most players and could possibly hurt a lot of players.
The people that are controlling the direction of youth baseball are clueless as to what is happening. It’s not the coaches or the showcase promoters it’s the parents that are doing this. Parents control where their kids play and go before they go to high school. “High Profile” national 12 year old teams aren’t needed unless ALL the other players have left town to play on the “high profile” 12u teams and then they almost become mandatory. This whole youth baseball movement has turned into a catch 22 and actually creates more inequities than opportunities. Here’s the way it happened. One day a great baseball person said: “Parents of talented players needs to put their sons on a travel team”. So every parent in the town signed their sons up on travel teams and created even more travel teams. Seeing nothing but “watered down” travel teams he then said : “Parents of talented players needs to put their sons on a SELECT travel team” So every parent in the town signed their sons up on SELECT travel teams and created even more SELECT travel teams. Now we’re starting to hear an emerging message that says: “If your son is a talented player you need to showcase him early because the really good high profile highly select national travel teams are using this to select the best players and these are the ones that will “make it”. If your son is truly a great baseball player and your phone rings wanting your son to join their cause just remember ... they need your son much more than he needs them. I’ll take some heat for saying this but in reality it’s the players that make the select team and the showcase successful, not the other way around.
Florida baseball guy and PGStaff you can breathe easy. My voice is but one small voice that even in by my own admission is somewhat hypocritical. To all the parents...you need to do what is best for your son. Someday when it’s all over we will understand the kid/baseball thing a little better. Justbaseball I'm confident you will not be proven wrong. In the meantime I hope everyone enjoys this beautiful Christmas day, be thankful for your son, and appreciate him for what he is.
Fungo
What is too early for one may be the right time for another. We do need to be careful, though, about setting younger kids up for disappointment at a later age.
There can be a benefit for a kid to be courted and end up playing for the Midland Redskins, Florida Bombers, East Cobb, etc. But there is no guarantee that kids on those temas will be more successful in college than others, or make it to the show.
I like the things that Fungo related to us....that the way he did things for his kid is not the way he would suggest for every kid.
And though I have tremendous respect for all that PGStaff adds to these forums, as well as Florida Baseball Guy, they believe in what they do....that is why they point out the benefit in underclass events, etc. In believing in what they do, they are biased.....though not selfishly.....they just believe.......it wouldn't make sense for them to come on here and contradict what they do.
Sometimes it is parents, as Fungo said, who hurry kids off to these kinds of national travel teams and national events at ages that can be considered too young. Sometimes the parents are influenced by the travel team coaches.....and sometimes attendance at elite national events is sort of like 'keeping up with the Joneses'.......
Things are different for every kid. An elite player at 18 or 21 does not have to be recognized as such when he is 14, 15, 16, because at those ages it really doesn't matter.
Perhaps the ultimate goal of most of these players is to succeed in major league baseball. The path they take to get there is not always the same path, and taking a path that may seem to be the best way offers absolutely no guarantees.
There can be a benefit for a kid to be courted and end up playing for the Midland Redskins, Florida Bombers, East Cobb, etc. But there is no guarantee that kids on those temas will be more successful in college than others, or make it to the show.
I like the things that Fungo related to us....that the way he did things for his kid is not the way he would suggest for every kid.
And though I have tremendous respect for all that PGStaff adds to these forums, as well as Florida Baseball Guy, they believe in what they do....that is why they point out the benefit in underclass events, etc. In believing in what they do, they are biased.....though not selfishly.....they just believe.......it wouldn't make sense for them to come on here and contradict what they do.
Sometimes it is parents, as Fungo said, who hurry kids off to these kinds of national travel teams and national events at ages that can be considered too young. Sometimes the parents are influenced by the travel team coaches.....and sometimes attendance at elite national events is sort of like 'keeping up with the Joneses'.......
Things are different for every kid. An elite player at 18 or 21 does not have to be recognized as such when he is 14, 15, 16, because at those ages it really doesn't matter.
Perhaps the ultimate goal of most of these players is to succeed in major league baseball. The path they take to get there is not always the same path, and taking a path that may seem to be the best way offers absolutely no guarantees.
Interesting. I was ripped apart on another thread for saying the same thing Fungo said, but he always gets the point across a bit better as do others.
For some reason the person that ripped me thought that I did not believe in travel teams. That is not so.
My son basically followed the same path as Fungo's. He began a travel team early because he was bored. Quite a few other teams in our area felt the same way. We still belonged to the local league but became the travel team for that league. We traveled, within state, but stayed pretty much close to home. It was good youth baseball, no pressure to win state or national "Titles".
We did this until son reached HS, playing occassionally for another team if he was asked for a tournament or two. In HS he joined a connie mack team for fall ball and summer until his senior summer when he joined the Pokers, where he traveled throughout the country. He also played as a Macabbi player for 3 summers, this is where he got his "travel" in during the summer, one week each time. It wasn't to be noticed in baseball.
We didn't even go to Cooperstown, like all the other teams around or Steamboat Springs, we just didn't.
Many of the boys my son played with early on have gotten good scholarships to fine schools, as with many in our area. I find it most interesting that most of our players in our area that were drafted might never have played "elite" travel ball.
So that is my son's story if some think I am against this elite travel ball at an early age. What I am not in favor of, is the purpose to which the impression now are given, start early so your son can get a scholarship in 5 or 6 years from now. Compete on national levels. Times are changing, everything is changing, new philosophies at an old game.
Also as many of you know, son entered college healthy, which I think is the most important thing of all. Limited innings, rest during the year, low pitch counts, playing to learn the game. Don't get me wrong, he loved those trophies, which now sit in boxes because actually in the end they just make for good memories not college scholarship dollars. But he made it to school healthy, which is your ultimate goal.
If parents find the NEED for their kids to play elite travel ball so young, that's their business. They are creating a need and those in the business are creating the opportunities. It's business. I am not going to get into the business side of things.
Furthermore, do not refer to me as an 'Old Timer" because of my way of thinking. I am such because of the number of posts that I have. The day you refer to me not knowing how things work, you better make sure you have a son who has gone through the process, gotten a fine scholarship (or drafted)at one of the best baseball programs in the country and preparing for the next level. Until you have been there, don't judge me. Write me up in a few years to let me know where yours is at, then you can call me what you wish. Don't judge a person until you have walked in their shoes. And I say person because there are a whole lot of moms on here who are more aware of what's going on than some dads.
The way I see things now, a whole bunch of parents getting stressed because their son won't be an elite travel player. And a whole bunch of kids who are discouraged because at 13 they couldn't make the team, when physically they just can't. What I see in the end are a whole bunch of burned out parents and players and a whole bunch of injuries. Which is happening more and more frequently.
I won't even get into the showcase thing for this age group.
For some reason the person that ripped me thought that I did not believe in travel teams. That is not so.
My son basically followed the same path as Fungo's. He began a travel team early because he was bored. Quite a few other teams in our area felt the same way. We still belonged to the local league but became the travel team for that league. We traveled, within state, but stayed pretty much close to home. It was good youth baseball, no pressure to win state or national "Titles".
We did this until son reached HS, playing occassionally for another team if he was asked for a tournament or two. In HS he joined a connie mack team for fall ball and summer until his senior summer when he joined the Pokers, where he traveled throughout the country. He also played as a Macabbi player for 3 summers, this is where he got his "travel" in during the summer, one week each time. It wasn't to be noticed in baseball.
We didn't even go to Cooperstown, like all the other teams around or Steamboat Springs, we just didn't.
Many of the boys my son played with early on have gotten good scholarships to fine schools, as with many in our area. I find it most interesting that most of our players in our area that were drafted might never have played "elite" travel ball.
So that is my son's story if some think I am against this elite travel ball at an early age. What I am not in favor of, is the purpose to which the impression now are given, start early so your son can get a scholarship in 5 or 6 years from now. Compete on national levels. Times are changing, everything is changing, new philosophies at an old game.
Also as many of you know, son entered college healthy, which I think is the most important thing of all. Limited innings, rest during the year, low pitch counts, playing to learn the game. Don't get me wrong, he loved those trophies, which now sit in boxes because actually in the end they just make for good memories not college scholarship dollars. But he made it to school healthy, which is your ultimate goal.
If parents find the NEED for their kids to play elite travel ball so young, that's their business. They are creating a need and those in the business are creating the opportunities. It's business. I am not going to get into the business side of things.
Furthermore, do not refer to me as an 'Old Timer" because of my way of thinking. I am such because of the number of posts that I have. The day you refer to me not knowing how things work, you better make sure you have a son who has gone through the process, gotten a fine scholarship (or drafted)at one of the best baseball programs in the country and preparing for the next level. Until you have been there, don't judge me. Write me up in a few years to let me know where yours is at, then you can call me what you wish. Don't judge a person until you have walked in their shoes. And I say person because there are a whole lot of moms on here who are more aware of what's going on than some dads.
The way I see things now, a whole bunch of parents getting stressed because their son won't be an elite travel player. And a whole bunch of kids who are discouraged because at 13 they couldn't make the team, when physically they just can't. What I see in the end are a whole bunch of burned out parents and players and a whole bunch of injuries. Which is happening more and more frequently.
I won't even get into the showcase thing for this age group.
JustBaseball, Fungo, Grateful, and TPM,
I totally understand and appreciate your posts. While I am a supporter of travel baseball, the pressure being put on pre-high schoolers is too immense. And for the most part it is immense by the parents - in many cases the ones who are running the teams.
My point was that travel teams are important at the later ages - probably starting with 15 yos. While I do not know exactly where Fungo's and Grateful's children played when they were older I do know that Justbaseball's son played with the prestigious NorCal team and that TPM's son played for Mike Roberts' Pokers teams that were powerhouses over the years. In fact, Dave threw a gem against us the summer after his senior year. He was awesome that day!
The Underclassman Showcase is mostly 07s with some 08s and a smattering of 09s included. To me there is nothing wrong with going to this event to get seen at that age. We have one young man who is going for the second time - last year he got used to the format and this year he is more aware.
If you read the article on recruiting, schools are truly trying to get kids to sign after their sophomore year. In fact, one of our players commited to LSU before he took a grounder during the summer after his junior year. He had made his decision and was happy with it. But the decision-making process, whether we like it or not, has been moved up.
Does that mean that pre-high schoolers need to play on travel teams or go to showcases? No. But I ask you this, if the child wants to play at those levels (and its not the parents idea) what is wrong with allowing them to do so? There are players who just love to play the game. There may be a lot more of them out there than you think.
I believe that everyone is right in this case. We need to take each case on an individual basis. Parents need to decide what is right for their children.
It seems that the four of you made right choices and I applaud you for sharing them with this site.
Everyone have a Merry Christmas and may this be a great year of baseball for all. God Bless!
I totally understand and appreciate your posts. While I am a supporter of travel baseball, the pressure being put on pre-high schoolers is too immense. And for the most part it is immense by the parents - in many cases the ones who are running the teams.
My point was that travel teams are important at the later ages - probably starting with 15 yos. While I do not know exactly where Fungo's and Grateful's children played when they were older I do know that Justbaseball's son played with the prestigious NorCal team and that TPM's son played for Mike Roberts' Pokers teams that were powerhouses over the years. In fact, Dave threw a gem against us the summer after his senior year. He was awesome that day!
The Underclassman Showcase is mostly 07s with some 08s and a smattering of 09s included. To me there is nothing wrong with going to this event to get seen at that age. We have one young man who is going for the second time - last year he got used to the format and this year he is more aware.
If you read the article on recruiting, schools are truly trying to get kids to sign after their sophomore year. In fact, one of our players commited to LSU before he took a grounder during the summer after his junior year. He had made his decision and was happy with it. But the decision-making process, whether we like it or not, has been moved up.
Does that mean that pre-high schoolers need to play on travel teams or go to showcases? No. But I ask you this, if the child wants to play at those levels (and its not the parents idea) what is wrong with allowing them to do so? There are players who just love to play the game. There may be a lot more of them out there than you think.
I believe that everyone is right in this case. We need to take each case on an individual basis. Parents need to decide what is right for their children.
It seems that the four of you made right choices and I applaud you for sharing them with this site.
Everyone have a Merry Christmas and may this be a great year of baseball for all. God Bless!
Bob,
That gaem Dave through was during senior summer, not in pre high school. Although he wanted to join the Pokers while going into junior year, we said no, didn't see the need for it. So he joined up in his senior summer and summer going into college, limited innings then. This is a big different than pre high school, which this thread is about.
Yes, they all love to play, they should play. But I think what I am gathering from Fungo, JBB and my post (grateful too) is that it does not have to necessarily a travel ELITE National team. I do feel that geography does come into play. Coming from a state that has relatively lower competition, by all means try to get as much exposure as you can.
There is NOTHING wrong with a player choosing to play at this type of level, showcases at pre HS. It is however, teh parents who ultimately make the final decision, as they are the ones that write the checks. As long as everything is kept in perspective, that's ok. But I see a lot of pressure placed on parents these days that DOES not have to be placed upon them when their sons are 12,13,14 years old.
And I do realize there is pressure. Not sure who is actually creating it, but parents and their young players DO NOT have to give in to get the prize.
That gaem Dave through was during senior summer, not in pre high school. Although he wanted to join the Pokers while going into junior year, we said no, didn't see the need for it. So he joined up in his senior summer and summer going into college, limited innings then. This is a big different than pre high school, which this thread is about.
Yes, they all love to play, they should play. But I think what I am gathering from Fungo, JBB and my post (grateful too) is that it does not have to necessarily a travel ELITE National team. I do feel that geography does come into play. Coming from a state that has relatively lower competition, by all means try to get as much exposure as you can.
There is NOTHING wrong with a player choosing to play at this type of level, showcases at pre HS. It is however, teh parents who ultimately make the final decision, as they are the ones that write the checks. As long as everything is kept in perspective, that's ok. But I see a lot of pressure placed on parents these days that DOES not have to be placed upon them when their sons are 12,13,14 years old.
And I do realize there is pressure. Not sure who is actually creating it, but parents and their young players DO NOT have to give in to get the prize.
This will forever be remembered as the Christmas spent driving down the highway writing an 8 hour response on the HSBBW. Me and my lovely bride of 39 years celebrating the holiday season, driving to an “Underclassmen” event in Florida.
She thinks I am nuts! And I agree with her!
I’ve told her we will be stopping in Tennessee where I will give “Fungo” a piece of my mind.
Then maybe we’ll drive to Maryville and scold Bob for starting this site.
Then on to Georgia to look up the infamous “Dibble” and give him a tongue lashing for starting this thread.
Then off to the final destination of South Florida where I will find TPM and read her the riot act.
Justbaseball, you will escape my wrath for the time being. California is a bit out of our way.
Really, I have spent the past 8 hours writing a reply. I might have to post it in Chapters!
Seriously, I would like to address this issue and give my honest thoughts. However, I might not be able to do that until I get settled somewhere. Maybe tomorrow or the next day.
While I agree with much of what has been said here by some well respected and very experienced people, there are some other things I’m not sure most people are aware of. I would like to mention several of these things just for thinking purposes. After all, the majority of what is being discussed here directly pertains to us.
I need to do some serious editing so it doesn’t come across as a business type thing.
Just to get started, what is false hope? Is it the opposite of true hope? Is it similar to having a dream? I hear that term “false hope” so often, but have never understood it. Isn’t it “real” hope to the one that is hoping? I’ve had hopes and dreams that others would describe as false hope. Glad I didn’t believe them, because sometimes they actually come true.
I hear the words “no guarantee”. Grateful mentioned in his post “there’s no guarantee that they will get drafted” or something like that. Now that is what I would call a very accurate statement. Baseball is not full of guarantees. What’s the old saying about the only guarantee in life? Death and taxes! Don’t think we are quite ready to add baseball success as the third guarantee. Hmmm… Wonder how far out of our way Michigan would be?
It appears that travel ball is not getting the same dam-nation as the showcases if I’m reading correctly. Yet the showcases take but a weekend and most of the big ones are in the off season for young players. I don’t fully understand how they could damage the community well being or ruin local baseball teams. I do understand that some may gain hope and that hope could cause them to work even harder or to become satisfied and quit working. That might be where the parents become involved.
By the way, this is not the 8 hour version, but just some random thoughts. Here is just one more thing to think about. Each year we are deeply involved with USA Baseball and the JO. USA Baseball has a youth National team as you all know. Many of the highest draft picks and college stars have played, representing their country, on this team as 15-16 year olds.
Doesn’t anyone wonder if USA Baseball has an interest in who the best 14-15 year old players are? Others can decide how important that is, but I think it is important.
Because I know someone is thinking… Yes, but they choose those players based on the tournaments in Arizona and Florida. That is true, but others have to choose who will get those opportunities to play in AZ and FL.
We have found roster spots in the JO tournaments for many players we thought had a chance to make the Youth National Team. We even sponsored a team one year that ended up having several players invited to the final trials, some made the YNT that year.
Here’s just one example - We saw a pitcher at age 13 who was a real little guy with a magical arm. We saw him again as a 14 year old. No one knew him at that time outside those who tried to hit against him.
We called Ray Darwin “USA Baseball” and told him we have to get this kid in the JO, he’s a cinch to make your youth national team. Long story short… We got him on a team, he made the Youth National Team and he ended up beating Cuba on a one hitter. Same kid was recruited and signed later at LSU. Same 5’11 RHP was drafted in the 4th rd out of high school by the Devil Rays.
It’s all very true – his name is Jeremy Hellickson
By the way, Hellickson missed nearly all of his all important junior year and that summer after. We picked him for the Aflac Team anyway, just like we picked Gavin Brooks last year despite no pitching after his junior year.
Please think about this for just a minute – A short RHP who missed his most important year due to injury was signed by LSU and drafted in the 4th round. I really believe he will pitch in the Big Leagues. Good thing someone saw him before his junior year because there was no junior year. We have a ton of those kind of stories if anyone cares to hear them!
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year
She thinks I am nuts! And I agree with her!
I’ve told her we will be stopping in Tennessee where I will give “Fungo” a piece of my mind.
Then maybe we’ll drive to Maryville and scold Bob for starting this site.
Then on to Georgia to look up the infamous “Dibble” and give him a tongue lashing for starting this thread.
Then off to the final destination of South Florida where I will find TPM and read her the riot act.
Justbaseball, you will escape my wrath for the time being. California is a bit out of our way.
Really, I have spent the past 8 hours writing a reply. I might have to post it in Chapters!
Seriously, I would like to address this issue and give my honest thoughts. However, I might not be able to do that until I get settled somewhere. Maybe tomorrow or the next day.
While I agree with much of what has been said here by some well respected and very experienced people, there are some other things I’m not sure most people are aware of. I would like to mention several of these things just for thinking purposes. After all, the majority of what is being discussed here directly pertains to us.
I need to do some serious editing so it doesn’t come across as a business type thing.
Just to get started, what is false hope? Is it the opposite of true hope? Is it similar to having a dream? I hear that term “false hope” so often, but have never understood it. Isn’t it “real” hope to the one that is hoping? I’ve had hopes and dreams that others would describe as false hope. Glad I didn’t believe them, because sometimes they actually come true.
I hear the words “no guarantee”. Grateful mentioned in his post “there’s no guarantee that they will get drafted” or something like that. Now that is what I would call a very accurate statement. Baseball is not full of guarantees. What’s the old saying about the only guarantee in life? Death and taxes! Don’t think we are quite ready to add baseball success as the third guarantee. Hmmm… Wonder how far out of our way Michigan would be?
It appears that travel ball is not getting the same dam-nation as the showcases if I’m reading correctly. Yet the showcases take but a weekend and most of the big ones are in the off season for young players. I don’t fully understand how they could damage the community well being or ruin local baseball teams. I do understand that some may gain hope and that hope could cause them to work even harder or to become satisfied and quit working. That might be where the parents become involved.
By the way, this is not the 8 hour version, but just some random thoughts. Here is just one more thing to think about. Each year we are deeply involved with USA Baseball and the JO. USA Baseball has a youth National team as you all know. Many of the highest draft picks and college stars have played, representing their country, on this team as 15-16 year olds.
Doesn’t anyone wonder if USA Baseball has an interest in who the best 14-15 year old players are? Others can decide how important that is, but I think it is important.
Because I know someone is thinking… Yes, but they choose those players based on the tournaments in Arizona and Florida. That is true, but others have to choose who will get those opportunities to play in AZ and FL.
We have found roster spots in the JO tournaments for many players we thought had a chance to make the Youth National Team. We even sponsored a team one year that ended up having several players invited to the final trials, some made the YNT that year.
Here’s just one example - We saw a pitcher at age 13 who was a real little guy with a magical arm. We saw him again as a 14 year old. No one knew him at that time outside those who tried to hit against him.
We called Ray Darwin “USA Baseball” and told him we have to get this kid in the JO, he’s a cinch to make your youth national team. Long story short… We got him on a team, he made the Youth National Team and he ended up beating Cuba on a one hitter. Same kid was recruited and signed later at LSU. Same 5’11 RHP was drafted in the 4th rd out of high school by the Devil Rays.
It’s all very true – his name is Jeremy Hellickson
By the way, Hellickson missed nearly all of his all important junior year and that summer after. We picked him for the Aflac Team anyway, just like we picked Gavin Brooks last year despite no pitching after his junior year.
Please think about this for just a minute – A short RHP who missed his most important year due to injury was signed by LSU and drafted in the 4th round. I really believe he will pitch in the Big Leagues. Good thing someone saw him before his junior year because there was no junior year. We have a ton of those kind of stories if anyone cares to hear them!
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year
Fungo - Thank you very much for your kind words and perspective.
PG has spent the day driving for 8 hours...I spent about the same amount of time putting together a friggn' Foos-ball table. My back is killing me! I don't know which is worse.
This has generated some good discussion. I am learning a bit more about this...perhaps this discussion will lead to a better appreciation by all.
PG - Some thoughts.
* Note that I used the phrase "hopes too high too early," not "false hopes." I see a difference. Let me say this...I have direct experience with this THIS YEAR as it involves a player from my team...a very talented player. For the record, I have enabled and supported his move from our very competitive Northern Calif. travel team to an ultra-competitive travel team...I don't believe in taking opportunities away from anyone. But its everything I can do to help his father keep this whole thing in perspective. Personally, I think this kid will be on your radar screen soon, but who the heck knows where he'll be at age 16/17? Will he stop growing? Will some tough outings on a national stage discourage him enough that he'll give up HS baseball? Sounds like I'm afraid of failure - huh? - well I'm not...I'm just worried about the impact on my beloved game down the road at the youth and HS levels.
* I think its great that you find the Jeremy Hellicksons out there at age 14...but why does that mean that they need to have rankings on a website? Did Jeremy need that? You'll still find them whether there's a showcase for them or not, because like Fungo's son and Robert Stock and Jeremy, they will be on the 15/16 elite travel teams anyways. And if you don't find them?...whats so bad about that? I understand and concur on your point about the downside for kids who get injured and don't play in the Junior year in HS...but I have nothing against any HS age travel team or showcase...its the pre-HS showcase thing I am against. So 15 or 16? Great! No problem here.
* While I would call my son's 2 summers on the USA Baseball Jr. National Team and his 2 outings against Cuba the greatest thrill of his baseball life (thanks PG because you helped that to happen!), I don't see why USA Baseball needs to know about 12/13/14 year olds? To me, knowing about HS baseball is more than enough.
FloridaBaseballGuy - Thank you for the kind comments as well. I truly appreciate them. Just for the record, my son joined NorCal after his Junior year in HS. Good timing! Before that, he played on a pseudo-local travel team that also had a lot of success at the national level...kids from the neighborhood going up against the big boys (East Cobb, NorCal, Chet Lemon's Juice, etc...)...now that was FUN!
In summary, I have worked for 15 years in local and regional youth baseball. I am seeing the changes and their impact firsthand. Good players are being sucked out of the LL's, Pony leagues, Babe Ruth leagues at younger and younger ages. Its not the kids...its the parents...chasing the dream. Sometimes it reminds me of bbscout's description of minor league ball...20 fillers for the 2-5 real prospects.
Someone opens a national 13/14 year old tournament and our local league registration goes down...someone opens a 12-year old national tournament and our registration goes down even further. People in our town ask me all the time how to get their 13-14 year old onto a NorCal. Now they have a 12-year old team and the questions will come soon. This summer we took our single-community team to Cooperstown...did farely well, but compete against the national travel teams? No way. Still had fun.
If it were only the elite players, that would probably be ok...but I am telling you when the elite player leaves our league, the not-so-elite friends bail on baseball too. It is s*u*c*k*i*n*g the life out of the local leagues around here...in my estimation, it reduces the baseball fan base down the road.
Like I said before, I'm probably a dinosaur on all of this...I know everything must change and I believe that in the end we'll converge on a better system. I'm a free-market guy...let the economic and social forces take care of it all...but I still wish this scenario wasn't so.
I've had a great Christmas...kids are playing foos-ball...my back is killing me...but I got a new camera lens, a Carson Palmer jersey and a Juan Marichal autographed baseball. Can't get much better than that.
Have a safe trip PG!
PG has spent the day driving for 8 hours...I spent about the same amount of time putting together a friggn' Foos-ball table. My back is killing me! I don't know which is worse.
This has generated some good discussion. I am learning a bit more about this...perhaps this discussion will lead to a better appreciation by all.
PG - Some thoughts.
* Note that I used the phrase "hopes too high too early," not "false hopes." I see a difference. Let me say this...I have direct experience with this THIS YEAR as it involves a player from my team...a very talented player. For the record, I have enabled and supported his move from our very competitive Northern Calif. travel team to an ultra-competitive travel team...I don't believe in taking opportunities away from anyone. But its everything I can do to help his father keep this whole thing in perspective. Personally, I think this kid will be on your radar screen soon, but who the heck knows where he'll be at age 16/17? Will he stop growing? Will some tough outings on a national stage discourage him enough that he'll give up HS baseball? Sounds like I'm afraid of failure - huh? - well I'm not...I'm just worried about the impact on my beloved game down the road at the youth and HS levels.
* I think its great that you find the Jeremy Hellicksons out there at age 14...but why does that mean that they need to have rankings on a website? Did Jeremy need that? You'll still find them whether there's a showcase for them or not, because like Fungo's son and Robert Stock and Jeremy, they will be on the 15/16 elite travel teams anyways. And if you don't find them?...whats so bad about that? I understand and concur on your point about the downside for kids who get injured and don't play in the Junior year in HS...but I have nothing against any HS age travel team or showcase...its the pre-HS showcase thing I am against. So 15 or 16? Great! No problem here.
* While I would call my son's 2 summers on the USA Baseball Jr. National Team and his 2 outings against Cuba the greatest thrill of his baseball life (thanks PG because you helped that to happen!), I don't see why USA Baseball needs to know about 12/13/14 year olds? To me, knowing about HS baseball is more than enough.
FloridaBaseballGuy - Thank you for the kind comments as well. I truly appreciate them. Just for the record, my son joined NorCal after his Junior year in HS. Good timing! Before that, he played on a pseudo-local travel team that also had a lot of success at the national level...kids from the neighborhood going up against the big boys (East Cobb, NorCal, Chet Lemon's Juice, etc...)...now that was FUN!
In summary, I have worked for 15 years in local and regional youth baseball. I am seeing the changes and their impact firsthand. Good players are being sucked out of the LL's, Pony leagues, Babe Ruth leagues at younger and younger ages. Its not the kids...its the parents...chasing the dream. Sometimes it reminds me of bbscout's description of minor league ball...20 fillers for the 2-5 real prospects.
Someone opens a national 13/14 year old tournament and our local league registration goes down...someone opens a 12-year old national tournament and our registration goes down even further. People in our town ask me all the time how to get their 13-14 year old onto a NorCal. Now they have a 12-year old team and the questions will come soon. This summer we took our single-community team to Cooperstown...did farely well, but compete against the national travel teams? No way. Still had fun.
If it were only the elite players, that would probably be ok...but I am telling you when the elite player leaves our league, the not-so-elite friends bail on baseball too. It is s*u*c*k*i*n*g the life out of the local leagues around here...in my estimation, it reduces the baseball fan base down the road.
Like I said before, I'm probably a dinosaur on all of this...I know everything must change and I believe that in the end we'll converge on a better system. I'm a free-market guy...let the economic and social forces take care of it all...but I still wish this scenario wasn't so.
I've had a great Christmas...kids are playing foos-ball...my back is killing me...but I got a new camera lens, a Carson Palmer jersey and a Juan Marichal autographed baseball. Can't get much better than that.
Have a safe trip PG!
Justbaseball,
Sorry about your back. I am willing to listen carefully to all concerns. It is very disappointing to know the youth leagues in your area are suffering. We are involved in both Travel ball and underclass showcases. I might decide to never again do a pre high school showcase. In fact, if it is hurting baseball we will not do anymore.
I like to hear all the opinions. Just want to add mine and what they are based on. I only want everyone to really think about things before forming a final decision.
If I decide to post the long one it might be pretty boring with many examples. After all, that is what people are using here are personal examples. The difference is, we have hundreds of personal examples even though we are not the parents of these kids (thank God)
I still need an explanation regarding how a weekend showcase can harm baseball back at the local level. Or how it can harm the individual player. We just haven’t seen that happen. I do like real life examples.
I do understand how Elite/Select/Travel type baseball can lower the numbers of players, thus hurting the game. I’ve seen it first hand. When we were 10-11 year old kids there was a team you could play for. Ability did not count, you simply signed up and you were on a team. I love that concept! Now days, the teams all have tryouts and they select who will play. Players with very little ability get left out. This is not good for baseball! This is not good period, a few of those kids might have ended up being really good had they just had the chance. I’m sure some kids lose interest completely in baseball and they don’t even become fans. This is bad for baseball.
Older people will work hard to help someone be a player, but it’s much more important to the game if we help a child fall in love with the game. I know exactly where you are coming from. I simply can’t understand how a weekend trip, camp, showcase, etc. has anything to do with the problems above.
Still driving, what’s Bobs address? We are in TN.
Sorry about your back. I am willing to listen carefully to all concerns. It is very disappointing to know the youth leagues in your area are suffering. We are involved in both Travel ball and underclass showcases. I might decide to never again do a pre high school showcase. In fact, if it is hurting baseball we will not do anymore.
I like to hear all the opinions. Just want to add mine and what they are based on. I only want everyone to really think about things before forming a final decision.
If I decide to post the long one it might be pretty boring with many examples. After all, that is what people are using here are personal examples. The difference is, we have hundreds of personal examples even though we are not the parents of these kids (thank God)
I still need an explanation regarding how a weekend showcase can harm baseball back at the local level. Or how it can harm the individual player. We just haven’t seen that happen. I do like real life examples.
I do understand how Elite/Select/Travel type baseball can lower the numbers of players, thus hurting the game. I’ve seen it first hand. When we were 10-11 year old kids there was a team you could play for. Ability did not count, you simply signed up and you were on a team. I love that concept! Now days, the teams all have tryouts and they select who will play. Players with very little ability get left out. This is not good for baseball! This is not good period, a few of those kids might have ended up being really good had they just had the chance. I’m sure some kids lose interest completely in baseball and they don’t even become fans. This is bad for baseball.
Older people will work hard to help someone be a player, but it’s much more important to the game if we help a child fall in love with the game. I know exactly where you are coming from. I simply can’t understand how a weekend trip, camp, showcase, etc. has anything to do with the problems above.
Still driving, what’s Bobs address? We are in TN.
PG,
When you state that how does it hurt if someone leaves your team for a weekend - the answer is that it doesn't. But I do think you are looking at this from a Perfect Game angle - not an overall showcase angle.
Let me explain. As you know my ballclub wants our players to attend PG events. I'm sure all the times I've pestered you to add one of our kids to the national event gets tiring for you at times. But there is no other event where I know there will be 500-600 scouts and colleges at one place.
However, the problem seems to be everyone wants to host showcases now. The players feel that they have to attend because "the scouts will be there". That is what hurts travel baseball the most. How can a travel team allow their players to attend every showcase imaginable? The answer is we can't. We have batting ranges trying to start their business by hosting showcases. We have a guy who has called every player in Florida to invite them to a showcase where he will pick a CABA team. There are two groups that will do three to five showcases each in Florida during the summer. Where does it stop?
We send our players to PG because you are a proven entity. If someone becomes better than PG for the players I'm sure we will send them there (I'd doubt that will happen in the near future).
We tell kids that we have our schedule and we expect them to honor it. Anyone who makes PG National or another top known event of course we support them. But other than that we tell the players that if they want to go to showcases all summer than we are not the team for them.
The showcase problem for pre-schoolers is one I'm not familiar with. But with the older kids it seems that there are way too make garbage showcases that can't do anything but collect money from the players. Or they take players away from their summer or fall teams to induce them to play for other teams or take lesons or whatever.
My point is that one weekend of a PG showcase is worthwhile - maybe even for a younger player. But PG, a player going to a different showcase each week is ridiculous - yet that is what many kids are doing. Instead of playing ball all summer they go from showcase to showcase. That hurts travel ball.
Whatever happened to the kids who played the game because they loved playing the game. They didn't worry about scouts and scholarship dollars and hiring recruiting experts and advisors. They just played the game.
When you state that how does it hurt if someone leaves your team for a weekend - the answer is that it doesn't. But I do think you are looking at this from a Perfect Game angle - not an overall showcase angle.
Let me explain. As you know my ballclub wants our players to attend PG events. I'm sure all the times I've pestered you to add one of our kids to the national event gets tiring for you at times. But there is no other event where I know there will be 500-600 scouts and colleges at one place.
However, the problem seems to be everyone wants to host showcases now. The players feel that they have to attend because "the scouts will be there". That is what hurts travel baseball the most. How can a travel team allow their players to attend every showcase imaginable? The answer is we can't. We have batting ranges trying to start their business by hosting showcases. We have a guy who has called every player in Florida to invite them to a showcase where he will pick a CABA team. There are two groups that will do three to five showcases each in Florida during the summer. Where does it stop?
We send our players to PG because you are a proven entity. If someone becomes better than PG for the players I'm sure we will send them there (I'd doubt that will happen in the near future).
We tell kids that we have our schedule and we expect them to honor it. Anyone who makes PG National or another top known event of course we support them. But other than that we tell the players that if they want to go to showcases all summer than we are not the team for them.
The showcase problem for pre-schoolers is one I'm not familiar with. But with the older kids it seems that there are way too make garbage showcases that can't do anything but collect money from the players. Or they take players away from their summer or fall teams to induce them to play for other teams or take lesons or whatever.
My point is that one weekend of a PG showcase is worthwhile - maybe even for a younger player. But PG, a player going to a different showcase each week is ridiculous - yet that is what many kids are doing. Instead of playing ball all summer they go from showcase to showcase. That hurts travel ball.
Whatever happened to the kids who played the game because they loved playing the game. They didn't worry about scouts and scholarship dollars and hiring recruiting experts and advisors. They just played the game.
PG,
You are headed for the west coast, I'm east.
I am not a coach, not in the business of baseball, just a parent, who has an opinion. I am in no way against any of this in HS, as I have stated before. Whether it is right or wrong, it is only an opinion. I try to keep up with what's going on as I get many letters from people asking me questions about how my son got to CU and asking for advice are showcases necessary, are lessons necessary. I try to be objective, depending on the location of the player. I think each player and parent need to make their own decision on THE PLAN based on talent, finances and development.
At 15 my son got a chance to try out for the JO, in Houston. He had to compete against 03's so he knew his chances were nil for making the team. He didn't make it. But he walked away knowing that even though he was younger, he was confidant he would be ok. That was enough for him as a sophmore going to be a junior, it was his decision not to do anything more that summer, even with an invite to play with the Pokers, Midland, not mine.
No Aflac, no area code, no east coast, no tournament of stars. One senior summer Pokers,one jupiter woodbat as a junior, two PG showcases in junior year, local tournaments. Not enough exposure according to my understanding of the "new" theory. He still managed to have many top programs make tremendous offers, possibly drafted 5th, 6th round and a very good GPA.
No one certainly needs to defend anything, there is obviously a demand and companies such as yours will provide the opportunity.
I just don't see it necessary for PRE HIGH school players. I see winning, striving to be "elite" replacing learning of skills at younger and younger of a vulnerable age when lots of growing takes place. I see burn out. I see, in the future, lots of talented kids NOT making it to college due to injuries from playing more than they should. But I could be wrong.
FBG makes some valid points. And I do not see one showcase can hurt anyone, but as Bob says, it JUST doesn't stop. There are too many parents out there that have to make sure their son is seen at every event. I've seen it often, funny thing is, they were VERY good players who didn't have to do anything, they got fair scholarships at good schools, not what mom or dad expected, and they didn't get drafted or if they did, not where they felt their son deserved. I also know of a few local pitchers who have showcased, played so much their arms are toast. Again, a happy medium has to be met.
I do feel as JBB feels, the "elite" younger travel teams are eating the life out of the local leagues. These leagues are a necessary part for our sons to learn to play the game, develop skills before they are ready for HS. In HS the travel teams, showcases, tryouts are to get ready for college or pro. It appears to me, we are just rushing our young players before we have to.
All of this is JMO.
You are headed for the west coast, I'm east.
I am not a coach, not in the business of baseball, just a parent, who has an opinion. I am in no way against any of this in HS, as I have stated before. Whether it is right or wrong, it is only an opinion. I try to keep up with what's going on as I get many letters from people asking me questions about how my son got to CU and asking for advice are showcases necessary, are lessons necessary. I try to be objective, depending on the location of the player. I think each player and parent need to make their own decision on THE PLAN based on talent, finances and development.
At 15 my son got a chance to try out for the JO, in Houston. He had to compete against 03's so he knew his chances were nil for making the team. He didn't make it. But he walked away knowing that even though he was younger, he was confidant he would be ok. That was enough for him as a sophmore going to be a junior, it was his decision not to do anything more that summer, even with an invite to play with the Pokers, Midland, not mine.
No Aflac, no area code, no east coast, no tournament of stars. One senior summer Pokers,one jupiter woodbat as a junior, two PG showcases in junior year, local tournaments. Not enough exposure according to my understanding of the "new" theory. He still managed to have many top programs make tremendous offers, possibly drafted 5th, 6th round and a very good GPA.
No one certainly needs to defend anything, there is obviously a demand and companies such as yours will provide the opportunity.
I just don't see it necessary for PRE HIGH school players. I see winning, striving to be "elite" replacing learning of skills at younger and younger of a vulnerable age when lots of growing takes place. I see burn out. I see, in the future, lots of talented kids NOT making it to college due to injuries from playing more than they should. But I could be wrong.
FBG makes some valid points. And I do not see one showcase can hurt anyone, but as Bob says, it JUST doesn't stop. There are too many parents out there that have to make sure their son is seen at every event. I've seen it often, funny thing is, they were VERY good players who didn't have to do anything, they got fair scholarships at good schools, not what mom or dad expected, and they didn't get drafted or if they did, not where they felt their son deserved. I also know of a few local pitchers who have showcased, played so much their arms are toast. Again, a happy medium has to be met.
I do feel as JBB feels, the "elite" younger travel teams are eating the life out of the local leagues. These leagues are a necessary part for our sons to learn to play the game, develop skills before they are ready for HS. In HS the travel teams, showcases, tryouts are to get ready for college or pro. It appears to me, we are just rushing our young players before we have to.
All of this is JMO.
TPM,
I know the way East! That was an outstanding post IMO.
I especially liked this part
And so could I
That's why people need to gather as much info as possible before making their decisions. I for one would be extremely happy if everyone did a thorough job of research.
I know the way East! That was an outstanding post IMO.
I especially liked this part
quote:But I could be wrong
And so could I
That's why people need to gather as much info as possible before making their decisions. I for one would be extremely happy if everyone did a thorough job of research.
quote:Instead of playing ball all summer they go from showcase to showcase. That hurts travel ball.
So travel ball is more important than showcases? What about local ball teams? Doesn't travel ball hurt them? Where does the recruiting service come in? What about private lessons? What should we do? We parents and players get caught in the middle of this tug of war.
Bob,
You may or may not believe this, but I think kids should not leave their team to participate in anything. Of course, sometimes that is what the team wants.
I don't talk to as many kids these days, but if I hear "I can't be there because my team is playing in a tournament" That is one of the best reasons in the world to miss a different event.
What I'm talking about is how spending a day or weekend in December at a showcase type event could affect a team, league, or baseball in general.
You may or may not believe this, but I think kids should not leave their team to participate in anything. Of course, sometimes that is what the team wants.
I don't talk to as many kids these days, but if I hear "I can't be there because my team is playing in a tournament" That is one of the best reasons in the world to miss a different event.
What I'm talking about is how spending a day or weekend in December at a showcase type event could affect a team, league, or baseball in general.
PG - I would enjoy reading your "long" version...I am always drawn to your posts. They are rich with valuable thought and information.
While I have to be honest when I say that I am not a big fan of specific examples (I feel it makes it easier to make a point...I can always find some example out there), I will focus on one question in your post. That is about how a weekend showcase hurts local baseball. I will go from my firsthand experience.
I would say that an eventual D1 type player comes through the lower ages in our league about every other year. The 1 player every other year has been getting found without 12-14 year old rankings and showcases.
A problem I see developing is that the 1 elite player every other year will now be enticed to go to a 13-year old showcase...probably not a problem in the grand scheme of things...but NOW, so do the next 10-15 players in his age group in our league...their parents don't see what you and I may see...that their son is not as good as they think he is.
So the 1 player goes to a showcase, no one can deny his talent and he is scooped up by one of the elite teams. Maybe 3-10 of the other players are picked up by 2nd tier elite teams. Now up to 10 kids have left our league...might be ok?, but...their best friends who weren't anywhere near that level now quit baseball altogether because they cannot play with their friend anymore. So from that 1 player that deserves to be recognized, we may lose 15-30 players from youth baseball.
As time goes by, our "league" isn't very good anymore...word gets around...now we lose more.
As an alternative, I started a pretty competitive travel team that has won plenty of regional tournaments. We keep it going to this day (age 13)...but I REQUIRE that the kids still play in their local rec. leagues. We work our schedule around the rec. league as much as possible. I have already forwarded 1 player to an elite team. In some smaller ways, I already see that as a problem...his father asked me if his son even needed to play HS baseball now that his son is on this team. Are you kidding? OF COURSE he should play HS baseball! But see how it starts to tear away from the community?
When my own 12-year old son got an offer from 2 such teams, I said "no, not for now." In part, I am not sure he's good enough. But if he is eventually, I will send him there in 2-3 years. In fact, I will send any of my players there if and when they become good enough. But I will not recommend they attend a showcase until they are in HS.
I like my model. It gives my players good/solid competition. It gives them opportunity. But it doesn't tear at the local baseball scene. It supports it by putting some of the very best 13-year old players in with their friends and peers.
Maybe the best way to say it is that I think its a "slippery slope." One thing leads to unintended consequences for others. And for what? I still don't understand why USA Baseball or StateU or the New York Yankees needs a database on a kid going back to age 13? Back to 15/16? OK, I get it...but to 13? I just don't get it and every local youth league in our community is working harder than ever to keep kids in their town at age 12...then 11...and now down to 10. I just don't get why it has to be that way?
BTW - do you have wireless in your mobile home or something? Please drive safely. And thanks for your posts...I do enjoy them and they make me think about this much harder.
While I have to be honest when I say that I am not a big fan of specific examples (I feel it makes it easier to make a point...I can always find some example out there), I will focus on one question in your post. That is about how a weekend showcase hurts local baseball. I will go from my firsthand experience.
I would say that an eventual D1 type player comes through the lower ages in our league about every other year. The 1 player every other year has been getting found without 12-14 year old rankings and showcases.
A problem I see developing is that the 1 elite player every other year will now be enticed to go to a 13-year old showcase...probably not a problem in the grand scheme of things...but NOW, so do the next 10-15 players in his age group in our league...their parents don't see what you and I may see...that their son is not as good as they think he is.
So the 1 player goes to a showcase, no one can deny his talent and he is scooped up by one of the elite teams. Maybe 3-10 of the other players are picked up by 2nd tier elite teams. Now up to 10 kids have left our league...might be ok?, but...their best friends who weren't anywhere near that level now quit baseball altogether because they cannot play with their friend anymore. So from that 1 player that deserves to be recognized, we may lose 15-30 players from youth baseball.
As time goes by, our "league" isn't very good anymore...word gets around...now we lose more.
As an alternative, I started a pretty competitive travel team that has won plenty of regional tournaments. We keep it going to this day (age 13)...but I REQUIRE that the kids still play in their local rec. leagues. We work our schedule around the rec. league as much as possible. I have already forwarded 1 player to an elite team. In some smaller ways, I already see that as a problem...his father asked me if his son even needed to play HS baseball now that his son is on this team. Are you kidding? OF COURSE he should play HS baseball! But see how it starts to tear away from the community?
When my own 12-year old son got an offer from 2 such teams, I said "no, not for now." In part, I am not sure he's good enough. But if he is eventually, I will send him there in 2-3 years. In fact, I will send any of my players there if and when they become good enough. But I will not recommend they attend a showcase until they are in HS.
I like my model. It gives my players good/solid competition. It gives them opportunity. But it doesn't tear at the local baseball scene. It supports it by putting some of the very best 13-year old players in with their friends and peers.
Maybe the best way to say it is that I think its a "slippery slope." One thing leads to unintended consequences for others. And for what? I still don't understand why USA Baseball or StateU or the New York Yankees needs a database on a kid going back to age 13? Back to 15/16? OK, I get it...but to 13? I just don't get it and every local youth league in our community is working harder than ever to keep kids in their town at age 12...then 11...and now down to 10. I just don't get why it has to be that way?
BTW - do you have wireless in your mobile home or something? Please drive safely. And thanks for your posts...I do enjoy them and they make me think about this much harder.
PG,
Your staff has never asked any of my players to leave our team to go to a PG event, so I do know your feelings on that matter. And of course if I'm suggesting kids for your national event than it is a correct assumpition that I believe that event is more important than anything we can do as a team.
I don't think a day or week in December hurts anyone. My point is that during the summer these players and parents are being beseiged by other showcases (I hate to say your competitors because that would suggest they are equal) to leave teams to come to their events. There are many kids that just go from showcase to showcase - some even never get to a PG event having spent their money on smaller showcases.
I have only seen one small showcase worth anyone's while and that is College Select. But even CS is more of a northeast regional showcase and, like PG, TRHit makes sure that he does not interfere with travel or legion teams.
Because of the connections PG has we suggest our players go to a PG event all the time. We have several playing in the Underclassman this week. But our problem is the other showcases that seem to crop up every week and try to lure players away with false promises.
How many of these other showcases have the college and pro contacts PG has? Or how many have baseballwebtv.com? Like I said in an earlier post the big problem to the non-PG showcases trying to lure the kids.
As for Fungo, in a tug of war I want you on my side.
I think all the parties here have been elegant at discussing the various points of view on this topic (I'm not even sure I have a point of view about pre-high school showcases. My point is there are too many overall showcases trying to take kids money and not doing what a PG showcase can, but promising the same exposure.)
This is what this site is all about!
Your staff has never asked any of my players to leave our team to go to a PG event, so I do know your feelings on that matter. And of course if I'm suggesting kids for your national event than it is a correct assumpition that I believe that event is more important than anything we can do as a team.
I don't think a day or week in December hurts anyone. My point is that during the summer these players and parents are being beseiged by other showcases (I hate to say your competitors because that would suggest they are equal) to leave teams to come to their events. There are many kids that just go from showcase to showcase - some even never get to a PG event having spent their money on smaller showcases.
I have only seen one small showcase worth anyone's while and that is College Select. But even CS is more of a northeast regional showcase and, like PG, TRHit makes sure that he does not interfere with travel or legion teams.
Because of the connections PG has we suggest our players go to a PG event all the time. We have several playing in the Underclassman this week. But our problem is the other showcases that seem to crop up every week and try to lure players away with false promises.
How many of these other showcases have the college and pro contacts PG has? Or how many have baseballwebtv.com? Like I said in an earlier post the big problem to the non-PG showcases trying to lure the kids.
As for Fungo, in a tug of war I want you on my side.
I think all the parties here have been elegant at discussing the various points of view on this topic (I'm not even sure I have a point of view about pre-high school showcases. My point is there are too many overall showcases trying to take kids money and not doing what a PG showcase can, but promising the same exposure.)
This is what this site is all about!
PG,
There is nothing wrong in admitting one may be wrong.
I hope you are keeping your eyes on teh road as you write.
I don't think we are talking about ONE showcase. You know the business of baseball recruiting, scouting, you know the trends. What I have big problems with is the guys who are trying to make parents believe that travel teams for 13,14 year olds are a MUST to get noticed. You provide a service, I have never heard you guarantee a scholarship, draft round, etc.
By the way, when you get home, and not busy how about making up a list of ALL the players who showcased in PG and are playing D1 baseball? Or have you done that?
Merry Christmas and drive safely and stay on the WEST COAST.
There is nothing wrong in admitting one may be wrong.
I hope you are keeping your eyes on teh road as you write.
I don't think we are talking about ONE showcase. You know the business of baseball recruiting, scouting, you know the trends. What I have big problems with is the guys who are trying to make parents believe that travel teams for 13,14 year olds are a MUST to get noticed. You provide a service, I have never heard you guarantee a scholarship, draft round, etc.
By the way, when you get home, and not busy
how about making up a list of ALL the players who showcased in PG and are playing D1 baseball? Or have you done that?Merry Christmas and drive safely and stay on the WEST COAST.
justbaseball,
If I didn't respect those involved in this discussion... I wouldn't be in this discussion.
You make some GREAT points. Just once if I thought we hurting baseball at the youth levels we would change. We want to do everything possible to promote baseball.
By the way, it's too bad there are not more people like you out there running youth programs.
Yes, I do have wireless but I'm missing the Mobile Home. Obviously the wife is at the wheel. It's raining in Chattanooga.
If I didn't respect those involved in this discussion... I wouldn't be in this discussion.
You make some GREAT points. Just once if I thought we hurting baseball at the youth levels we would change. We want to do everything possible to promote baseball.
By the way, it's too bad there are not more people like you out there running youth programs.
Yes, I do have wireless but I'm missing the Mobile Home.
Obviously the wife is at the wheel. It's raining in Chattanooga.