Are umpires racially biased in ball/strike calls?

quote:

Originally posted by SultanofSwat:
The Socialist author achieved his goals - to pit groups against each other in order to ultimately gain political power.

Can't we all get along? Play ball.

Not to mention that guys like him make a great living ensuring racism stays alive and well. What ever would they do if racism truly was eradicated?

As I see it, this is a complete non story where a politically biased individual used questionable statistics to push and justify a bias he already had. In some way shape or form, we all probably do it as well with other notions we may have. He just gets paid to do it.

Originally posted by sloroller:
Vector,
Racism cannot be specifically defined. As I stated in my post blacks and whites see things differently. For example, I noticed that you said "It is the race baiters of the world like Al Sharpton who tries to exploit anything that involves people of different races." I could ask why didn't you say race baiters of the world like David Duke?

A simple answer for a simple question. I mentioned both of them in my post, since both of them are known as race baiters. However I attached the label specifically to Sharpton because MSNBC has bestowed some credibility to him by allowing him to host shows on their network. Many people might not know about the Tawana Brawley incident among others. Furthermore Sharpton has always had a bigger platform than David Duke, and while I consider them birds of a feather, Duke is less known overall. However his racism is without question having been part of the Klan.


A person could say that your statement was racist because you attached a negative(race baiter)to a African-American, but did not attach any thing to the KKK member, a white male and known race hater.

That is not what I did since as I mentioned they were both named as examples of what the majority of people in their respective races are not. Any person who would try to assert that my comment was in any way racist is just looking for trouble and probably has a chip on their shoulder.

Another example, over the years at practices/games/tryouts with him being the only black kid, new parents or just parents at the various tryouts, would walk up to me and say, "Is that your son at short?" Would you take that as racism? The question was neither positive or negative but is was an assumption based on race. I laughed about those things also. I know that they just figured he is the only black kid, you are the only black person in the stands, 2+2.

Well you would certainly be expanding the definition of racist/racism if you were to let something like that get underneath your skin. As you said it is 2+2=4. I have no idea why they would have gone about it like that, but probably it was just a means to break the ice and start up a conversation with you. I'm 6'7" and my son is 6'5" and still growing. If we are at an event together I've had people come up to me and ask if he was my son since we both stand out in a crowd. To me there is no difference between our two examples other than an awkward means of introduction. I'm glad you laugh it off because otherwise I'd begin to think you had a racial chip on your shoulder.

I am making a general assumption here. It appears that a lot of posters on this board lean to the Republican side looking on the "Unusually Unusual".
Not too many fans of President Obama there. Do I consider the comments being negative about him based only on his race, no.

I never go into that section, but our first "post-racial president" has been nothing of the sort. He obviously got elected because many white people voted for him. However if you have read his book, it is clear that race is a big issue with him, and he has shown himself to be biased in that regard. Regardless, I think many people had hoped this so called post-racial era would reduce the tension between races, but instead I think it has had the opposite effect.

But I have heard many times from the political pundits in various media outlets complain that 95% of the African-American voters supported Obama just because he was black. I have never heard any one complain before that 95% of the African-Americans voted for the other 43 because they were white. We all know that they did not talk to every one of the 95% to ask them why they voted the way they did. But their stated reason might as well be etched in stone. Is that racist? It could be considered a positive to black people(we stuck together) and a negative to whites
(only because he was black).

While totally off the subject, I find this topic interesting. First of all, people will vote based on race, religion, and other factors which really should not play a role in their decision. I have a personal example which I find amusing. My aunt who is a republican and has apparently always been one, laments about how "she made a huge mistake, the biggest of her life". She said that back when Kennedy was running for president she crossed party lines and voted for him mainly because he was Catholic. After she saw how he turned out as president she cursed herself(as if her vote made the difference). Another example down here in S Fl is to look at who is elected in the city of Miami. Hispanics are the majority, and you will be hard pressed to find any non-Hispanics elected to office.

As to Obama, you cannot honestly tell me with a straight face some blacks did not vote for him based on nothing more than race. Those pundits talk about statistical analysis showing the black turnout was huge compared with other elections. Furthermore there have been studies showing that some blacks voted strictly based on race. Heck, I cannot stand Howard Stern, but did you here the interviews one of his guys did in Harlem? It basically shows how blacks interviewed claim to NOT be voting for Obama based on race, yet the interviewer attributed all of McCain's positions to Obama and asked people what they thought. Needless to say they were behind those policies because they thought Obama was behind them. At least one even said he supported Sarah Palin as Obama's VP. Needless to say these were not the most sophisticated voters in the black community, but it gives you an idea of how some voted strictly on race, yet denied it.
Here is the link that you might get a kick out of because it is funny;


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ViWsmEHsbEs


My point is that some people of all races seem to feel a kinship with "their own", and will vote strictly based on that. It is sad, but it is reality.


The bottom line is that we all have personal experiences that shape who we are. The race and culture we grow up in makes a huge difference in how we perceive life. While humans are a tribal species, we can still get along with others because we have the mental capacity to overcome our tribal instincts. Unfortunately there will always be some who cannot co-exist with others who are different. Our job is to not let those people set the tone for the rest of us.

quote:

We were at a ballgame when my in-laws came to watch. At this time my son was the only black player on the field, in the dugouts anywhere. He was at short, my pops-in-law was scanning the field then he just asked out loud "What's his number" We all had tears in our eyes.

sloroller,

Now that is funny! If there, I would have had to LMAO on that one.

I don't like certain people. I don't like people that are dangerous, disrespectful, dishonest, etc. These people are members of "every" race!

quote:

Over the years we have learned that people assumed he had blazing speed because he was black. We used to laugh about that assumption.

On the other hand, if there are 100 kids running the 60 and 20 of those kids were black. I would predict that one of those 20 black kids will run the fastest time.

It doesn't have anything to do with racism. It has everything to do with experience. We once researched the 50 fastest 60 yard times ever run at our events. 42 of them were run by black kids. Also, you can look at the "speed" positions in football or the top sprinters in track.

None of this means every black kid is fast or white kids are not fast. In fact, the very fastest time we ever recorded was run by a white kid. Maybe I'm stupid, but I just don't see this as any form of racism.

sloroller, I hope you contribute more often here. I think it is healthy and important to discuss these things. Avoiding these topics doesn't help educate any of us. I'm pretty sure that most everyone on this site (of any race) would not be labeled a racist.

Regarding politics... IMO we might never have another President who is accepted, no matter what race or religion. I'm afraid what was once a great system has gone haywire. If we have a Democratic President, the Republicans will spend 4 years trying to gain back control. If we have a Republican President, the Democrats will spend four years trying to gain control. IMO, way too much time and money is spent on gaining control rather than working on running the country! I think politicians have come to the understanding that the majority of voters are easy to fool. And that doesn't even take into account the special interests.

There, Everything I usually try to avoid... Race, Politics and Religion!

Vector,
Slow your roll. I was giving you examples of various situations that SOME could perceive as racist. Really I don't know if I should tell you to slow your roll because just reading text can be tricky. At first when I read your response, with the bold print, I was like, uh-oh, touched a nerve. But realizing that is the way people respond on here I had to back up and rethink.

"Any person who would try to assert that my comment was in any way racist is just looking for trouble and probably has a chip on their shoulder."
"I'm glad you laugh it off because otherwise I'd begin to think you had a racial chip on your shoulder"
Now do you see how fast you determined that a person with possibly a different point of view than yours could have a "chip" on their shoulder.

"I think many people had hoped this so called post-racial era would reduce the tension between races, but instead I think it has had the opposite effect."
So do I, but tell my why do you think that is?

I would be a fool to think that people do not vote based on race, religion, etc. My point was the blanket 95% based only on race. I already knew about Stern's interview so I did not watch your link. Thanks anyway though.
As for the Sharpton and Duke analogy, I was just pointing out the specific way you worded it could be perceived by some as racist. You think that that would have been totally ridiculous therefore a "chip" must exist. Remember I have stated that people of different races can see the same thing and look at if differently. Yes some views may seem totally absurd to one person and make perfectly good sense to another. Such is life.

Early on my son played RBI baseball. The decline of African-Americans in baseball is well documented. When we left the RBI it was not because of lack of numbers but lack of quality competition. Kids would jump out of the way when he threw the ball to first and they played by little league rules, no stealing, lead offs etc. He played a state tournament out of town with another team. The rules were the AL rules and the team had very good players. Once my son got a taste of "real" baseball he could not go back. Hence our pursuit of competitive baseball. If I had to do it all over again knowing that we would be the only black family for years and the possible hostility that the parents held, would I, yes. My son had no problems with any teammates or opponents. The little flack from the parents, I could handle. My purpose was to give my son the best chance to achieve his goal which was playing in college. He is now there. As I have stated before, I have been on this board for years, felt the pain of Deldad and others, love the straight forwardness of TRHit, have been to a PG event, the cartoons of GOTWOOD. I felt that I was a part of the baseball family even though I did not participate a lot.

Vector its all good. I don't have a chip and you didn't accuse me of having one.

Lets get back to the topic at hand. No intentions of hijacking this thread. For the record I do not see any bias on the umps part.

This link goes to another umpire forum, where I posted other links to stories. If it's not the same study, it's one very similar, with the same results.

The basis of the study is ridiculous, has too many variables to be proven, hasn't been repeated, totl bunk. I agree that racism exists but thisn't the venue to debate it.

This whole topic is a bit of a waste. We are talking about differences at the 3rd decimal place over millions pitches. In a game with 300 pitches in it we are talking about 1 or 2 pitches. Hardly enough to change the pattern of any game I've ever seen.

Further this presumes one team pitched all whites and the other team all minorities. Since that rarely happens it is possible if not probable with the racist umpire one pitch went to team A and the other to Team B so it evens up. Come back with data on specific umpires with something that shows variances that would materially affect more than one At-Bat and I might think about this again.

BTW...America is infinately more sexist than it is racist. I believe we would have elected Colin Powell in 2000 if he ran. We were not ready to elect Mrs. Clinton or Mrs. Palin in 2008 and won't elect Mrs. Bachman in 2012. Doesn't matter what their qualifications are...we are just not there yet. It is encouraging we have elected our first minority. President Obama will not be the last and 25 or 50 years from now I would expect we will have multiple serious contenders every election cycle. Race as a issue in Presidential politics will be somewhat of an after thought.

quote:

Originally posted by Bum:
I can tell you one can twist statistics so as to support any preconceived result.

Don't buy it.

I have to agree, way too many variables were left out of the article... and they may have actually been available to the writer. I wouldn’t base anything off of the article that was presented in the original post. I think you would have to see the SMU research for yourself to make any type of decision here, rather than letting a columnist make the decision for you.

On the other hand, I can't believe where this thread has taken off too...

I do not need to look at any survey. It is impossible to be a "good" umpire, of any race, if decisions are based on anything other than making the right call.

Geez, how good would Barry Bonds, Hank Aaron, Willie Mays, Frank Robinson, Bob Gibson, etc. been without all those umpires screwing them?

Thank you Jackie Robinson!

I know there have been many well documented cases of racism in baseball history. I'm sure that some still exists. However, I've never once heard a black player claim umpires were screwing him because of race. And I've never heard a white player claim the same thing about a black umpire.

I really believe that racism does not exist on the playing field these days. There might be some in the stands at times, but not on the field.

quote:

Originally posted by Texas1836:
I am racist. Put a short Texan on the mound and I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. Good for Herrera, bad for Lackey. Hmmm

Lackey is just bad, regardless of race, creed or religion.

I have to agree that statistics can usually be manipulated to arrive at the desired result.

This site is about high school baseball. If you scan this site there are topics about baseball gloves, cleat, helmets, hats, uniforms, how to clean pants, where to stay, what to eat, how to workout, how to talk to a coach, how to read the rules, how to handle parents, where to buy sunglasses, who is a good coach, who isn't a good coach and all most everything else that relates to baseball. But, this is not the venue to talk about racism in baseball? I believe that was the topic of the article from the OP.
PG stated that he doesn't see racism on the field. MTH said it is there depending on socio-economics(sp) and different areas. I said my son said he has never felt racism on the field.
Besides a couple of minor incidents that I felt was based on our race, I didn't have any problems UNTIL BARACK OBAMA ran for president. That is how this turned to politics. I thought that most of the advice given on this site was based on personal experiences.
For instance, look at the forum "Ask about colleges"
When someone mentions a historically black college, see how many responses they get, if any. One poster even asked, why would you want to go there?
Talking about race is difficult, just as religion and politics. But there is a difference between point of views. Throughout my posts I repeatedly said I was giving examples of possibly different points of view. That's all.
At least 4 posters have basically said change the subject.
It seems as though we can talk about perceived racism in an article, but don't bring up any personal experiences. What did the author say again "willfully ignored."

I don't believe "willfully ignored" is the reason I said this isn't the place to discuss this. This is a baseball board discussing all things baseball. As a longtime poster on many boards over the years, including moderating at least 6 boards, religion and polotics can tear a board apart.
The OP is about a study that had a completely stupid premise that was unprovable, with many variables not accounted for in the study. This makes it completely useless and not worth discussing.

Sorry if I got on the soapbox. Debating baseball and politcis are two of my favorite things so I got a little carried away.

the original question was are umpires racially biased on ball strike calls?

the fact that a question like that is even asked tells you a lot. It is a ridiculous premise. But it reinforces my opinion that if anybody can interject race into the situation they will. Sad

I agree the premise is stupid. On the other hand I have enjoyed this thread and believe it belongs here.

Sloroller, you seem like someone that would be enjoyable to watch baseball with. Keep the comments coming.

quote:

Originally posted by luv baseball:
Sorry if I got on the soapbox. Debating baseball and politcis are two of my favorite things so I got a little carried away.

I too love to debate both baseball and politics, I just have found that combining them on a board like this usually ends badly.

quote:

I agree the premise is stupid. On the other hand I have enjoyed this thread and believe it belongs here.

It is the high school baseball web. The premise is stupid? Can we move on to talking baseball?

I agree with you Micheal.

bkekcs
Thanks

Michael
True and I agree with your last statement and I was including you in the willfully ignored category, but no offense. I just had a different point of view and shared it. If a thread was started about racism in high school baseball how many posters on here would have a story to tell that they themselves experienced?


Will
My son was playing high school baseball when a high school baseball parent sent me those hostile emails. He only knew me through baseball.

I just gave you guys my experience dealing with racism on the field or stands. I have nothing else to comment on that note.

I'm not saying that there isn't racism or bigotry in all walks of life, unfortunately that is a fact. My point is umpires calling balls and srikes according to the race of the pitcher is patently rediculous. Discussing politics on a baseball board is usually a very bad idea that ends up in flames, something I don't to see here. There have been some good points in this thread but I just think it is a bad idea.

Yes the idea that ml umpires being biased towards the race of a pitcher or hitter , etc etc is ridiculous. The problem I have with threads like this is they morph into something else if you let them hang around long enough. Pretty soon were not talking about baseball or the kids and parents that could use this site to assist them. Were talking about things that have nothing to do with baseball. People are getting their feelings hurt. People are getting misunderstood. People are inclined to log off and not log back on. And the list goes on and on. Is there racism in baseball? Yes. Is there racism in the world? Yes. And it goes in every direction in baseball just like in life.

Micheal is correct imo we need to close this thread out and move on. jmo

To start, for those clamoring for this thread to end, I respectfully disagree. First it appears to be a civil and mature discussion of a contentious subject that all too often is not discussed in public. This is a public forum, and while it is focused on baseball, this section says it is for a "topic, question or information does not seem to fit anywhere else ... post it here". So even if the discussion at times strays away from balls and strikes based on race, I don't believe the discussion should be stopped for our own good.


Originally posted by sloroller:
Vector,
Slow your roll. I was giving you examples of various situations that SOME could perceive as racist. Really I don't know if I should tell you to slow your roll because just reading text can be tricky. At first when I read your response, with the bold print, I was like, uh-oh, touched a nerve. But realizing that is the way people respond on here I had to back up and rethink.

That is good because I only use this method rather than cutting and pasting *quote* & */quote* over and over again if I want to respond to several specific thoughts in a long post. This time I will give you the bold print.

"I think many people had hoped this so called post-racial era would reduce the tension between races, but instead I think it has had the opposite effect."
So do I, but tell my why do you think that is?

I cannot honestly tell you because I never understood where that came from. Sure electing a black person to be president does show that race is not a deterrent to achievement in this country. Some will strongly disagree, but they are typically invested in the notion that most if not all problems their race suffers is due to outside forces. It is much easier to look for excuses as to why someone does not succeed instead of looking at themselves and the choices they made. Furthermore, even if they know they made poor choices, they are unwilling to start with a fresh turnaround, and make the best of their situation. Naturally there are those who will exploit those type of people for their own gains.

As for the Sharpton and Duke analogy, I was just pointing out the specific way you worded it could be perceived by some as racist. You think that that would have been totally ridiculous therefore a "chip" must exist. Remember I have stated that people of different races can see the same thing and look at if differently. Yes some views may seem totally absurd to one person and make perfectly good sense to another. Such is life.

My point is simply that using one race baiter first as opposed to second should not make a difference. Had I used Duke first and Sharpton second, I would not expect a white person to say that the order could be perceived as racist. The fact that I mentioned them both in the same breath should be sufficient to any person not looking for a reason to be offended or see racism where it does not exist.

I felt that I was a part of the baseball family even though I did not participate a lot.
Vector its all good. I don't have a chip and you didn't accuse me of having one.

I agree all is good, and this site is a great place for those of us who love baseball, especially the HS and college levels. We naturally want our sons to have the best chance to go as far as their talent will take them. This site is full of knowledgeable people willing to give their insight and experience to those who need it. So in that regard it is like a family.

The problem with people like Sharpton and Duke is they represent a very small portion of the population but they drive the rhetoric and fuel discourse. If the govt would quit trying to fix everything and let the states do their job things would be better. Gangs are another problem keeping rasism alive, black gangs,white gangs, hispanic gangs, name the group and there is a gang for it and that leads to intolerance.
All of this has nothing to do with umpiring a baseball game.

Bum,
I'm guessing you were much more annoyed about the "little" part of it.

quote:

"Hey.. look at the little Asian kid warming up."

I read an analysis of this recently that noted that almost the entire difference in this study was based on the calls of Angel Hernandez and another hispanic umpire. The analysis also showed that regardless they were both doing an excellent job of calling the strike zone.