Are We Getting Too Technical?

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
Are we trying create clones?--you look at Manny , Vlad et al but a kid cannot do what they do because he is not like them--because the kid is a distinct individual with a distinct mind and physical attributes

I hear you, but the problem is that there really is one right way when it comes to at least fielding and hitting (and pitching to a degree). As a result, and leaving aside inconsequential style differences, guys will tend to look like clones.

This is driven by the fact that bodies tend to work the same way and, more importantly, the laws of physics don't change from person to person.

As I'm trying to explain to my know-it-all 11YO son, I'm all for individualism but if you want to make it to the top you have to do things the right way.

That's a good question TR.

It has been our experience that all four of our kids have benefited from lessons given by competent instructors who know how to teach the necessarily technical and scientific principles to their students.

They assess the level of comprehension of their students and tailor their lesson to meet the kid's needs. For the most part we have been satisfied with the results...and we are careful to choose those instructors who fit this profile.

And as for coaches we feel the same...unfortunately we don't have as much say so over selecting a coach as we do in selecting instructors.

Our two daughters are presently on teams that happen to have excellent coaches who really, really, do a fine job of both coaching and instructing. This didn't occur by happenstance. We actively searched for and joined these two travel softball teams based on the high level of competency exhibited by the coaches and their staffs. The next criteria was the quality of the families involved in the program...you spend a tremendous amount of time with these folks...don't they know it!

So bottomline TR...I feel that the technical and scientific information is necessary, but needs to be taught wisely. I do agree with you that it (hitting) does simply boil down to "see the ball--hit the ball". It's just that you want the kids to see the ball well and hit the ball hard and put it where it will do the most good.

And speaking of boiling it down and feeding mumbo jumbo to the kids you might want to try this...it's not quite mumbo jumbo, but it's close...

TR and painguy ...

I happen to think TR is right on on this one. In my opinion, at least when it comes to the young players, I think there is too much effort mane in trying to make all position players, all hitters, all pitchers into the same mold for their position, and that not enough consideration is given to the different body types out there. Other than 'see the ball, hit the ball' and proper mechanics for throwing the ball, which I believe are basic, there seem to be too many 'pitching/hitting/fielding'-for-dummy thinkers out there. After all, do we really see so much similarity in all the big leaguers? I always get a chuckle when I watch the big leaguers at the plate and the various stances (e.g., Craig Counsell, former Dback) with the results quite often being the same.

But that is JMHO

quote:

Do the young lads, 8 to 12 years of age understand all the technical mumbo jumbo when you feed it to them

No, they don't.

And most of them don't need to. The average 8-12 year old Little Leaguer won't play above the age of 13 anyway. Only about 20% of them will play any kind of high school ball. Only those driven ones are even interested in this stuff in any measure, and many of them won't take to it, either.

I have learned to stay away from the hitting discussions on this site, because of the "angels on heads of pins" debates that go on. I'm all for sound mechanics, but boy we do go overboard with the nitpicking and the "my way or the highway" stuff.

quote:

Originally posted by LadyNmom:
...but good instruction, early on....can also be helpful, and build confidence. IMHO

B-I-N-G-O !

quote:

Originally posted by LadyNmom:
too much technical instruction at an early age can complicate...and in some cases may even lead to early burn out.....but good instruction, early on....can also be helpful, and build confidence.

I agree that with younger kids especially, you have to keep things simple.

What I tend to do is not mess with guys unless they are obviously getting off the path to success. Then I try to gently nudge them back into the path. I don't care if they move a little left and right as they walk down the path (hey, that's what kids do) as long as they are generally going in the right direction.

One VERY important point is that I have come to find that most (e.g. 80%) kids tend to have good instinctive hitting and pitching mechanics.

For example, of the 8 pitchers on my select team, 7 of them have really simple, solid mechanics and have had minimal instructon (I just focus on keeping the ball down in the zone). The one guy who does do something problematic was taught to do that by an instructor who was trying to help him but who may have permanently screwed him up.

The same thing applies to hitting. When kids have a problem, it is often due to something that a well-intentioned parent or coach taught them to do.

IOW, when in doubt shut up.

You're more likely to hurt a kid than to help him.

I have to wonder what we did and how players succeeded before all the technical/scientific/specific coaches/teaching facilities stuff came about

I guess I am lucky my dad was a player

Well - You do want to make sure a young pitcher is using his body correctly to avoid injury. Rarely can a Little League coach deliver that type of instruction. I suppose each parent can make an argument that their player needed some type of specialized instruction to avoid injury and maximize their efficiency.

I did hear a talk from a major league pitching coach/director who stated that a young player from the USA with all the coaching in the world, may have perfect form, but minimum results, whereas a Dominican youngster who walks by a bar, sees Pedro Martinez on TV and goes out to do the same thing gets better results.

The reality is that those Dominican and Venezuelan and other Latin American players did not just appear out of the air. They are put in baseball academies as young teenagers and then schooled in the fundamentals while American kids are in school. Obviously that gives them an advantage.

I don't know exactly what you mean by "technical talk", but nothing beats good coaching in the fundamentals.

Well… Not to be controversial… But…

In defense of the many outstanding instructors out there, I must disagree with what some have said here.

I don’t do any instruction these days, but I’d like to think that over the years I’ve helped many players get better. The top instructors are competitive, they want to help players get better. I’m not talking about the guys who just do instruction for the money alone and then they forget the kid. A good instructor will take a kid’s improvement personally.

I believe in the… See the ball… Hit the ball theory! However, those who can do it the best, all have hitting coaches. Most of the best hitters ever, study hitting and continually strive to improve. (Ted Williams, Tony Gwynn, etc.) The end result of all this study and hard work is they then can go to the plate and basically… See the ball and hit the ball. That part is fairly simple, but getting there sure isn’t!

Nearly every good baseball player has had to learn the game from someone or many people. Sometimes it’s a coach, sometimes an instructor, often it is Dad! But just plain leaving them do things wrong is a recipe for disaster IMO. A player can not improve a whole lot if from day one, he is only taught to see the ball and hit the ball. There has to be more to it than that.

The technical or scientific part of baseball is similar to every other thing in life. The more we learn, the better we get. Now we drive automobiles and fly airplanes. If it weren’t for advanced technology we would still be riding a horse to work. There were lots of successful people who rode horses back then (they had no alternative), but now days there are many more successful people driving and flying. I understand it’s a matter of opinion as to which way was better. I like it better this way until scientist’s and inventors develop something even better.

It’s not just baseball, other sports have used technology and science to improve as well. Not many guys kicking field goals using their big toe these days.

Is the game that simple? IMO yes in some ways. But if you dig deep enough, it might be the most complex game ever invented! In fact, that’s why I think it is so great!

We used to give our (College) players a 100 question multiple choice test. The correct answer to every single question was one that I felt was very important in order to play at the highest level. You had to get 80 right to pass and be able to play. We had two players on the entire roster that passed the test the first time they took it. In the end everyone passed and they learned. There were players on those teams, who are now college coaches and use the same test!

Maybe sometime I will post that entire test here or at least parts of it. I think everyone would be surprised at the things they Don’t Know about this very simple game. Things that those playing at the highest levels really need to know!

We all have a lot to learn, no one knows everything about the game, no one ever will. Does that sound like anything easy or simple?

That was a very good post PG. I especially found your comparing baseball, when it comes to utilizing technology, to other endeavors enlightening...very appropriate and relevant.

As you know...there still are some people that have to ride a horse to work...I just wonder how they put technology to good use?

gotwood,

The technology is right there on the mounties hip! And I bet the saddles have improved as well. Maybe even the material in the clothing. And for sure crime fighting methods have changed with new technology.

Sometimes I think we'd be better off if the thing on the hip would never have been invented. Hunters would disagree!

PGStaff, please post that test. You have definitely piqued my interest!

PG...Unfortunately there was a reason for that invention.
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"Boss! Da test! Da test!"

I gotta admit... You got me on that one! I must have forgotten just how handy those things can be at times!

Give me a few days and maybe I will post the test or at least a few of the questions. I'd have to type it all first and it's a big test.

quote:

What happened to "see the ball--hit the ball"--- that is the bottom line of all the scientific talk when you think about it---

Ohhh amen, amen, amen!!!

Son is a switch hitter and EVERYONE ( including their Aunt Ermil & her pink poodle ) has had something to say about his swing, it seems. Son started to get confused a bit last season trying to incorporate all the different techniques suggested to him.
This lead to what his mom best describes as
" mental madness ". ( on both our behalfs )

We spent the remainder of the summer removed from parents and their well intended two cents, & spent Fall ball, and this years pre-season simply focusing on " see-the-ball, hit-the-ball ".
I'm glad to report its been working out nicely.
Most cant tell which is his natural side.

We are back to the simple basics.
No more over thinking, and just alot of doing.
Reptition repititon repitition!!

quote:

Originally posted by shortstopmom:

Son is a switch hitter and EVERYONE ( including their Aunt Ermil & her pink poodle ) has had something to say about his swing...

How about these guys...did any of them offer your son advice on his swing?



"Ahhh Haaa"

Gotwood,..too funny! Well,..if they saw him, they probably did. ( tee hee!! ) Don't get me wrong,...nice people with great intentions. We are always open to any and all suggestions, trying to improve daily.
We just made the mistake of listening to everyone and thinking my son should try every angle suggested.
Can you imagine/visualize how contorted the poor kid started to look? Right leg lifted above his left ear,...left hand on left hip planted at a 90 degree angle, while holding bat with front teeth,..and balancing on left pinky toe.
We got quite confused!

Big lesson learned.
Sometimes ya just gotta do what works best for you. For my son,..its pretty much the basic simple concepts that have worked for him.
See ball,..hit ball, pet the pink poodles later.

There isn't one right way and that is why instructors can help. A good instructor can work with a kid's strengths and weaknesses to develop an approach that is right for that player. You can give a player all the technical jargon you want and no matter how correct it is they'll take it and go off on a tangent. For that matter a mlb player will go off on a tangent no matter how well they understand hitting and end up in a slump. That's where a good instructor can help by knowing what works for a given player and also knowing what corrections to make when they go away from what works for them. 99.9% of the time it doesn't take any technical description to make the fixes or to teach hitting in the first place.

It does help instructors to have technical knowledge as long as they don't become so enamored with it that they start bewildering their students with technical jargon.

I was at a college camp and the hitting coach was talking about a seminar he went to. A well known guru type went well past his allotted time trying to explain everything in detail. Next came Tony Gwynn. He showed the bat squared up and said "I try to get them to get to there." That was it.

There's a lot more to passing on hitting knowledge than having the knowledge.

AMEN---simple,isnt it?

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
I'd have to type it all first and it's a big test.

Need an extra finger...it's prolific!

i guess it was about 10 or 11 years ago, walt hriniak a family friend came and pitched bp to both of my sons. at the time they were 11 and 9 or so.he was going golfing with my father-in-law and had some time to kill.he spent a good 3 hrs with them throwing and talking explaining etc. i was more excited than they were. i could listen to the guy all day. very interesting, explaining and showing why you do this and not that.
last season he had read about the oldest boy's hitting at a local jc.he came to a game and watched him hit. after the game he introduced himself,son say's i know who you are, etc. etc,. he say's where did you learn to hit like that? and he mentioned a few things he did. from you mr. hriniak when i was 11. he explained the day he came to town. he didn't know it was the same kid. they talked for two hours after the game,i've never saw my son more excited.
10 years ago i would have bet money those kids wouldn't have remembered his name let alone what they learned, but he didn't get technical, or big league them. you never know what kids will remember, maybe because of who tells them? i don't know, but it worked for mine.

yes at times we are too technical for kids.

I understand why so many believe in the see the ball, hit the ball theory. In fact, I believe in it myself. However, before a hitter can get to that stage, he needs to understand what he's doing. IMO

See the ball, hit the ball, all by itself... is not likely to work without much more being involved. It's just not that easy! First of all, there's even a proper procedure in how you actually see the ball! So the better you see it, the better you should hit it!

Why would baseball be any different than other sports where a ball is hit. The golf swing has been studied and perfected to a degree. Yet that ball is much easier to hit than a baseball. Do we really think the top tennis players in the world got that way by just seeing the ball and hitting it!

Every level of baseball a player moves up, the challenge of hitting increases. What works in youth or high school might not work in college or pro. There are thousands of players that hit a ton at the lower levels, but couldn't adjust to the upper levels. If all there was to it was seeing the ball and hitting the ball, there would be no need for coaching or instructors. We could all just be spectators. I wonder how many dads who really have a strong baseball background... Have never taught their son anything more than just see the ball and hit it.

The See it and hit it approach is something you tell someone who knows how to do it. Until they understand hitting it isn't likely to help get them reach their potential. IMO Sooner or later someone will need to teach them more than that.

shortstopmom,

I do understand why in your son's case "just see the ball and hit the ball" was a good thing. Too many people think they have the same knowledge as those who have lived their entire life in the game. Too many cooks can spoil the broth as the saying goes. Sometimes one good instructor is better than a dozen others. And when that one good instructor is done with his student, he will tell him to just go up there and... See the ball... Hit the ball!

One problem I see here is that we are talking aboutlevels of players age and everything is different at different stages of development


We need to separate the age groups and how we teach them

TR,

Just in order to be accurate...

If I had a grandchild of ANY age who was really interested in playing baseball. And if he didn't live anywhere close to me. I would find a top level instructor to show him the right way to do things. That way, I think he'd have even more fun playing the game.

But I also don't see anything wrong with just letting them play and learn on their own either! It has to be enjoyable, that is most important.

I believe this is the challenge facing all coaches / instructors to take all the new technical information available and make it relevant to their team / pupils. Technology is generally a good thing, how it is used is up to us. Video has truly changed the game but, in the wrong minds, that change can be for the worse. Sometimes the "phraseology" we develop helps to simplify complex ideas into something the player can use and feel. Often this same "phraseology" is misunderstood and then misapplied. See ball, hit ball, is a great swing thought but generally bad instruction since it doesn't really tell the player "how". Now if you are talking about Jugs guns @ U10 Tournaments my feelings take a left turn regarding technology...

PGStaff - I knew early on that my Son had talent. I also knew that I never played organized baseball, just sandlot with 4 players on each team! When my Son turned 10 we started taking him about 90 miles south of our home a couple times each month to work one on one with a former pro player who ran the hitting zone. We took him there for 4 years and recently began working with another former pro player/instructor for the past 2 years.
The work of both these instructors has made the difference for my Son. He does the work and is responsible for the results, but without the tutaledge of these men I am sure that he would not have achieved the success that he has.

The thing I find most interesting when I read the latest and greatest competing theories about pitching - and hitting a baseball - is this very simple reality.

If what the gurus claim is true - then there is only one correct way to pitch or hit. That is typically the crux of their message.

And if you accept that premise - then you must remember this: Only one of them are correct - and all the rest are dead wrong. LOL

No Sale!

Its,

I’m not talking about gurus. I’m talking about good solid baseball people who know the game and how things are done. There are many of them who agree on many things.

I would agree and start running the other way as soon as someone told me there is only one way to do things. However there are many things that have proven to cause a player to fail. Good solid advice doesn’t have to include, and usually doesn’t include, a one way only approach. A good instructor will try to help a player improve the natural ability he already possesses. He will not take away the things a player does well naturally, he will improve them.

I’m with you completely on the one way only thing. All but one is wrong! Fact is, they’re all wrong to some degree if they believe that!

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:

I would agree and start running the other way as soon as someone told me there is only one way to do things. However there are many things that have proven to cause a player to fail. Good solid advice doesn’t have to include, and usually doesn’t include, a one way only approach. A good instructor will try to help a player improve the natural ability he already possesses. He will not take away the things a player does well naturally, he will improve them.

I’m with you completely on the one way only thing. All but one is wrong! Fact is, they’re all wrong to some degree if they believe that!

Not to be redundant - but I agree with every single thing you just posted.

its - where you been lately

Congrats to Darin BTW on the 7-9 and the hot start

CD - thanks.

Alot of work - and a little play. Its been a pretty busy start to the New Year.

Hope all is well!!!

Here is what I think is wrong

1. People like to use big words because it makes them feel smart and they believe people think they are smart. This is why I hate going to the hitting forum. Too many people using too many words and there way is the only way to hit. You can take the fancy stuff and simplify it to a younger player's level and they can learn it. It's not what they learn but how they learn it is important.

2. When they hear 50 people tell them 50 things and the kid tries to merge or go back and forth through the 50 ideas. That is crazy. I got a freshman catcher who has the Steve Sax / Chuck Knoblauch mental throwing problem. I took him aside and he lost his confidence. It is going to take hard work and he needed to listen to one person on what to do. I warned him 15 people will tell him what is wrong and what do to do fix it and that is the worst thing that could happen. I sent him with one of my assts. for about 35 minutes and he got better - not fixed but better.

There are different ways to teach and what to teach but it all comes down to several identical things. If you compare Craig Counsell, Manny, Derrick Lee and others they will all have several different stances but once they stride and the foot is down and the hands have started coming down - there is very little differences between them.

Please post the test.

I don’t think anyone is getting to technical, but I sure do believe most people are far too **** about technique.

quote:

People like to use big words because it makes them feel smart and they believe people think they are smart.

EXACTLY.

In my flight instructor training I spent a good deal of time on this very topic - all of the teaching in the world is worthless unless the student understands what is being said. And on top of that, different students will comprehend the same words differently. We must always make sure that the words we choose are being properly understood, just throwing out some jargon (load, unload, open, close, seperate) isn't going to cut it. You could tell a country kid to swing like he's chopping wood and a light bulb might come on in his head, but tell the same thing to a city kid and he'll have a bewildered look on his face.

Style


That is why I believe baseball teaching/instructing is a "one on one" thing---each player understand things differently and it also varies from age group to age group

My 2 cents:

I coached HS ball for the last 4 yrs and recently started working part time at a local baseball academy, helping out at clinics. Which, it goes without saying, qualifies me as an expert!!

Different ages groups for different clinics, ranging from 8-18. One thing I have seen WAY too much of, is a lack of understanding of how to:

a) hold a bat, and
b) swing a bat.

I think the biggest problem is kids not really watching baseball on TV and not playing 'sandlot' ball. I learned from the older kids in the neighborhood, and watching games on the tube. When we played outside, we would mimic the older kids and they would tell us when we were doing somethign wrong.

95% of the kids I see [including the kids on our HS team] are all arms, sweeping the bat across the plate, instead of driving it across; everybody stands 3 feet from the plate so they can hit an inside pitch, instead of keeping the hands back and driving the knob to the ball. Everybody has an aluminum bat swing.

Kids benefit from good instruction only if they apply it. Can't tell you the number of kids who have told me, when I suggested a slightly different approach to the grip/stance/stride "This is the way I hit" or "I've been hitting this way my whole life" [from a 9 YO!!! LOL].

Most kids don't want to put in the time/work to be a good hitter. [Nobody wants to put in the time to be legendary - greatness is not fast food!!] I ran into this at the HS - tried to institute drills, to no avail [e.g. hitting drills off a tee: "That's ***!! Why would we hit off a tee - that's for little kids" Of course that's why they stagnate, too, in terms of their development.]

I think too many kids are taking lessons, etc from too many people [how many kids you know see multiple instructors plus coaches?? or bounce from academy to academy until someone tells them what they want to hear?]. But I feel a receptive kid, receiving intelligent instruction will benefit, regardless of his age. Making instruction age appropriate is really the key.

Manny/Vlad, and everybody in pro ball [yeah, even Craig Counsel!!] are world calss athletes [regardless of what Krukker says]. Many of them start off doing weird things, but the vast majority, at the point of impact, are doing the right thing; even if they are not, they are successful b/c they have tremendous hand/eye coordination , unreal fast twitch muscles, etc. Joey Bagadonuts down the street will never be a pro player, because he's not a world class athlete, but also b/c he does things wrong - I think you kinda need one or the other. I think it's just kinda the way it is.

For 99% of us in the world, if we want to succeed at something, we have to do it the right way - I think that's what instruction is about, but making it appropriate for the audience - you can't teach biochemical engineering to 1st graders!! It's not a stretch to be able to show 8-10 YO kids that you hold the bat this way, stand this way, stride this way, and swing the bat like this. ANd then let their individualism fine tune it.

Long winded - sorry - gotta keep the windmills turning!

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
If I had a grandchild of ANY age who was really interested in playing baseball. And if he didn't live anywhere close to me. I would find a top level instructor to show him the right way to do things. That way, I think he'd have even more fun playing the game.

This isn’t a shot at you for thinking the way you do, because its certainly the way most of us think.

Ever wonder why we’re all so ready to pay so much for sports instruction, equipment, and travel for our kids to move from “C” players to “A”, but that so relatively few will invest anywhere near the same thing to move the kids from academically average students to top notch students?

Because we are dads!!!!!!!! We love sports and we want our kids to be good at it. And we wanted to be good at it. And we know that if we had had some of the opportunities available today back then we might have done even more with our ability. I have made mistakes in my life. I have praised good abs probaly more than getting and a and a b. Sorry Im just being honest. My wife is the one that was there pushing the academics alot harder than I did. Dont get me wrong I have stressed good grades and working hard in the classroom. But looking back on it the fact is I focused on sports way more. Why? See the start of this post for the answer. My son is an excellent student and makes very good grades. But not because I was standing over him pushing it. No, that would be my wife. But my son can play some baseball. And I really cant take any credit for that. He just wanted to be where I was and do what I was doing. Personally two things stand out to me that need to be taught properly at a young age. Throwing mechanics because poor throwing mechanics learned at young age will hurt a kids arm and they are almost impossible to correct. Hitting. Kids that come into a HS program that cant hit a lick will be lucky to leave hitting avg for HS hitters. If baseball is important get your kid some sound fundemental throwing instruction. Get him some sound fundemental hitting instruction. If not then accept what you get and hope you get lucky. Some do and some dont.