Are We Getting Too Technical?

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
That is why I believe baseball teaching/instructing is a "one on one" thing---each player understand things differently and it also varies from age group to age group

Everything in baseball can be taught and learned efficiently in group settings, but the “gain” that will be taken away from that setting is questionable, and will vary greatly with the individual.

But that goes for any teaching/learning environment. The more one on one time a student can get with an instructor, and the more the instructor adjusts his method to the student, the more effective both the teaching and learning will be.

The gray area comes when people try to figure out the optimum time/age to begin the one on one. it would be great if everyone had unlimited funds and could start their kids on top notch instruction the second the cord is cut, but is that necessary?

I know I cringe when I see or hear about kids taking private lessons at 6YO, but I also cringe when I see or hear it when the kid is 12. Its not that I don’t believe the instruction will help advance the kid, but I don’t see any point to it, and it strikes me as robbing kids of some of that time they should have as kids to just go out and play for the sake of having fun.

You know when I cringe? When I see a 14 year old kid come out for baseball in HS and I see alot of god given tools and he has no clue how to hit or throw. He has a long swing casting out his arms and with some good solid instruction at an earlier age he might be able to hit. Or he throws the ball with all his might 60 feet with god awkward fundementals. Baseball is a sport that requires years of repeated repititions. Bad reps instill really bad habits that take years of hard work to get rid of. Now how many kids that need this kind of work in order to be sucessfull in baseball are going to be willing to put that kind of work in? Some of the best teachers of solid hitting and throwing mechanics at a young age are dads. Dads that have played or learned from others. But there are dads that teach something they heard about or something someone showed them that had no clue and there you go. Im was not willing to take a shot in the dark with my kids. Just playing the game is great. Hard to enjoy playing catch when you have to chase the ball all day. Hard to enjoy playing the game when you cant hit the ball. Its one reason kids that cant play stop playing.

I wasn’t trying to say no one cared or did what you did, but rather it was a much more general statement about how we, the current keepers of the flame, have gone about things.

Although I’m sure its happened, I honestly can’t say that I’ve ever heard anyone go out and pay $50 per half hour to a tutor to get a kid’s grade from a high C to a strong A, but I’ve sure seen tons of them willing to pay that and more to have their kid go from being a slightly better than average player, to being an all star at anywhere from 6 to 12YO. And what’s amazing is, the chance that the baseball investment will pay off nearly as much as the academic one would, is very small indeed.

scorekeeper


Are you aware that there are academic services similar to recruiting services for sports---I know of one player whose parents had him with both--academic and sports ?


Its a brand new world out there

quote:

Originally posted by Coach May:
You know when I cringe? When I see a 14 year old kid come out for baseball in HS and I see alot of god given tools and he has no clue how to hit or throw.
That makes anyone fell bad, but that’s what happens when who gets the best of training is limited to less than everyone. The same things happen in every other of life’s endeavors. The extremely bright kid in the ghetto isn’t likely gonna get to go to college, let alone graduate from Princeton.

Baseball is a sport that requires years of repeated repititions.
That’s true under the best of conditions.

Bad reps instill really bad habits that take years of hard work to get rid of. Now how many kids that need this kind of work in order to be sucessfull in baseball are going to be willing to put that kind of work in?
Not as many as lots of folks would like us to believe.

Some of the best teachers of solid hitting and throwing mechanics at a young age are dads. Dads that have played or learned from others. But there are dads that teach something they heard about or something someone showed them that had no clue and there you go.
Personally, I have no problem at all with any dad sincerely trying to help his children, even though he may be a bumbling idiot. Where I have the problem is, when dad, for whatever reason, won’t allow anyone else who might help the child, do that. But, I have the same trouble with coaches who believe their way is the only way.

Im was not willing to take a shot in the dark with my kids. Just playing the game is great. Hard to enjoy playing catch when you have to chase the ball all day. Hard to enjoy playing the game when you cant hit the ball. Its one reason kids that cant play stop playing.
I agree, but to me its really sad that the really basic fundamentals of hitting, throwing, and catching the ball aren’t stressed more than they are. Its like people aren’t happy that their 7YO can properly play catch or hit a ball in the strike zone. There has to be more!

I can’t tell you how many times I see people comparing HS aged kids to ML players, let alone prepubescent kids. Of course everyone would love to have their kid swing like Ted Williams or throw like Sandy Koufax. But although I believe every healthy kid given the proper instruction and opportunity could play ball at extremely high levels, the chances of any kid having the same physical traits or life experiences that formed those guys, is minuscule.

Scorekeeper,

I have never paid a dime for instruction. Not everyone who is a good baseball person charges money. Often, the best instruction (and sometimes the worst) comes from good ol dad!

I actually did spend more money to get one of my kid’s academic help. I couldn’t handle that by myself.

And there are lots of people who invest much more in their child’s education than his baseball life. In fact, I think most people do if you think about it. But why can’t baseball supplement his education?

My kids never traveled the country playing baseball. But if I had kids who were talented enough now, that is exactly what I would do if possible. I have seen how much it has helped young players.

My thought on this subject is simple… If a kid loves to play baseball… He will enjoy it a lot more if he knows what he’s doing! There are lots of ways to accomplish that. If it is not affordable, then find another way. There are a lot of people who can help with the basic stuff at younger ages. Then if he looks like he wants to shoot for the moon, find the best instructor possible for him. If you don’t get positive results, you didn’t find the best possible instructor. Instructors can’t make chicken salad out of Chicken sh*t, but they can make the Chicken sh*t a lot better.

In most every case… The goal should never be about making it to the Big Leagues. It should always be about just getting better. There can’t possibly be anything wrong with learning and getting better. No matter if it’s academics, baseball, or any other worthwhile thing. Academics and sports do not have to always be compared. Why can’t both be important? We do call them Student/Athletes! Not just students and not just athletes.

Talking about kids in the ghetto and being underprivilaged is a worthwhile discussion, but how did it get into this discussion?

scorekeeper

You posts are starting to sound similar to a prevoius poster from your area---RAMROD

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
Are you aware that there are academic services similar to recruiting services for sports---I know of one player whose parents had him with both--academic and sports ?

It sure is a brand new world!

There have always been and always will be, ways for those with the wherewithal to do it, to find the best of everything. But look at the whole thing. In order to get to that very high academic point, it will take a lot of resources that not everyone has, and the same thing can be said for those recruitment services. Those folks are out there operating out of altruism, at least not the majority of them.

I’m not for a free ride for anyone, but I am for keeping as many players in the game as possible until they reach much more physical and mental maturity than what many players are forced out as lacking now.

LadynMOm

Is it not starting to sound like what we have seen now that he is into the ghetto aspect etal?

Ladies and gentlemen,...lets not start calling names. Perhaps we can just keep to the original question.
Please, that would be so much more productive for all.

I will second shortstopmom's advice. Let's not get started down that path - and BTW, those suspicions are not correct.

Julie

quote:

The goal should never be about making it to the Big Leagues. It should always be about just getting better. There can’t possibly be anything wrong with learning and getting better.

A good quote, IMHO!

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
I have never paid a dime for instruction. Not everyone who is a good baseball person charges money. Often, the best instruction (and sometimes the worst) comes from good ol dad!
Well, I can tell you that unless you have one heck of a background in the game or have a heck of a lot of “connections”, around this part of the country, you’re gonna be spending a lot more than dimes.

And there are lots of people who invest much more in their child’s education than his baseball life. In fact, I think most people do if you think about it. But why can’t baseball supplement his education?
I think we’ll just have to agree to have a difference of opinion on this one. It may well be that we’re speaking from our own experiences, but I know we’re not seeing the same thing.

I never said there weren’t lots of people who did as you suggest. What I’m saying is, there are many more who don’t than do.

My kids never traveled the country playing baseball. But if I had kids who were talented enough now, that is exactly what I would do if possible. I have seen how much it has helped young players.
Maybe where we differ is at what age we see that as being something that will be a major benefit of them playing locally. IMHO, there’s just no need for 12U kids to go all over the country because with just a little effort, they should be able to find teams they can compete against and find challenging, very close to home.

Now when you talk about getting to HS age, that’s different. The number of teams available is drastically reduced, and good competition is harder to find.

My thought on this subject is simple… If a kid loves to play baseball… He will enjoy it a lot more if he knows what he’s doing!
I can’t argue that because that’s a philosophy or a belief you have. I’d think that was true too, but there’s no way to really test it.

From my experiences though, usually when a kid is roughly equal in talent to those he plays with and competes against, he’s a pretty happy camper. That’s true competition.

There are lots of ways to accomplish that. If it is not affordable, then find another way. There are a lot of people who can help with the basic stuff at younger ages. Then if he looks like he wants to shoot for the moon, find the best instructor possible for him. If you don’t get positive results, you didn’t find the best possible instructor. Instructors can’t make chicken salad out of Chicken sh*t, but they can make the Chicken sh*t a lot better.
Your method is one that certainly fits what most of us are seeing today, but the problem with it is, finding other ways is not always the easiest thing to do.

In most every case… The goal should never be about making it to the Big Leagues.
For the younger kids, I honestly don’t think its very often about making it to the show, but rather more about dad being able to say and feel that his kids is superior.

It should always be about just getting better. There can’t possibly be anything wrong with learning and getting better. No matter if it’s academics, baseball, or any other worthwhile thing.
I agree, that’s what it should be about, but is it in every case? Tough to say.

Academics and sports do not have to always be compared. Why can’t both be important? We do call them Student/Athletes! Not just students and not just athletes.
Both can be and are important, but really, how important is baseball compared with academics?

As a healthy way to spend time and learn some life lessons, baseball is a wonderful thing to do. But if it held such a place in society as some believe it should, it would be a mandatory thing to do, rather than an extracurricular activity. I don’t recollect that there’s a Nobel Prize for baseball though.

Talking about kids in the ghetto and being underprivilaged is a worthwhile discussion, but how did it get into this discussion?
I guess its my fault.

I said it made me cringe when I see or hear about 6YO and 12YO kids taking private lessons. Then Coach May said it made him cringe to see a kid with obvious talent not have the slightest idea about how to use it. In response, I said that that’s the kinds of things that happen when the “best” isn’t available to everyone, and used the ghetto expression in saying: : The extremely bright kid in the ghetto isn’t likely gonna get to go to college, let alone graduate from Princeton.

That’s how threads evolve. Its not that they get purposely hijacked, but they’re direction changes.

I don’t use it as an excuse, but rather to point out that things aren’t always as nice and buttoned up as baseball dogma would like them to be.

Heck, I get really goin’ when someone starts on a genetics binge, when someone starts knocking MPR rules for kids, tries to say that coaches are omnipotent and parents have no input, and a few other things too.

TR’s 1st post was very much right on point. Although he used 8-12YO’s and I think it goes lower than that to 5YO’s, the issue is he same thing, Prepubescent kids don’t need to know the technical differences between linear and rotational, tall and fall or drop and drive, or much of anything else, other than to play baseball and have fun.

I sincerely believe far too many kids are literally being chased out of the game before they’ve even had hair growing in those places where it grows when one goes through puberty, and I think its sad. We need to keep as many kids playing as possible, just like we need to keep kids in school until they actually learn something!

scorekeeper

You are beginning to take a road known only to yourself

You are way off base

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TR...

Lets take this disucssion the next logical step...

Do you feel that we are all so brainwashed into the complex mechanical, the over technical approach that we overlook and undervalue the simple?

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LadyNmom,

I’m sorry if I’ve created a problem. I’ve already told the moderator that for some reason, my screen doesn’t get refreshed between when I start to read something and finish a reply.

I've tried to delete everything that say Lady that I can. If I missed something, please let me know and I'll get rid of it.

I have no idea what the heck is goin’ on, nor who this RAMROD guy is, but I’m begiing to suspect that I’m being accused of doing whatever he was, and people don’t like it. I’m being accused of hijacking threads, and now of being someone I haven’t the slight clue of who she/he is or what they did was evidently so heinous that they got booted off the board.

I don’t know what to do here anymore. Even when I agree with Tr he tells me I’m way off base.

I’m sorry! If it will make everyone happy, I’ll shoot myself!

44


Do not know about logical but

The parents today are surely brainwashed into the academy/training aspect---not to say there are not excellent instructors/coaches out there but I remember when they coached teams and it was all part of the package--now they teach on per hour rate--not to say this cannot be a good thing but I think we have gone overboard here

Now the kid goes to this instructor and that instructor, and then he gets to his team coach and he gets another version---the kid gets confused--who do I listen to? My HS coach does not like what I am doing---just read the posts we see here on this site---more confusion than sanity when it comes to direction

Speaking from our own experience we have staff of "baseball people" and they are all on the same page---the players get the same direction from all of the coaches---no confusion--no nonsense-- and all the coaches talk to each other about situations--


yes it has become too complex

In a word: Yes.

quote:

Academics and sports do not have to always be compared. Why can’t both be important? We do call them Student/Athletes! Not just students and not just athletes.
Both can be and are important, but really, how important is baseball compared with academics?

As a healthy way to spend time and learn some life lessons, baseball is a wonderful thing to do. But if it held such a place in society as some believe it should, it would be a mandatory thing to do, rather than an extracurricular activity. I don’t recollect that there’s a Nobel Prize for baseball though.

I am just as big a believer in academics as anyone else, but... Just for the sake of debate (I know you love it) What kind of education did the following people have. I don't know if they all were Nobel Prize recepients or not.

Dalia Lama
Mother Teresa
Thomas Edison

Didn't I read that Edison was kicked out of school as a child and never went back. Hate to think what our lives would be like without him.

Very dark !!!


And no American Idol!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Scorekeeper:
I have no idea what the heck is goin’ on.

Hey...that's my line!

quote:

Originally posted by Scorekeeper:
I’m sorry! If it will make everyone happy, I’ll shoot myself!

Being a responsible NRA member I absolutely must not allow you to do this! Everyone needs to do as the angels do and lighten up. They've got every angel figured!

Stay around Scorekeeper...I like your input.

scorekeeper

I have been around here a long time and I know for a fact I dont make everyone happy---TOO BAD--- it is part of the scene---stick around and enjoy the banter, as tuff as it can get at times

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
The parents today are surely brainwashed into the academy/training aspect---not to say there are not excellent instructors/coaches out there but I remember when they coached teams and it was all part of the package--now they teach on per hour rate--not to say this cannot be a good thing but I think we have gone overboard here
How about if we say there is a much higher percentage of brainwashed parents out there than there used to be? Many people with a lot of disposable income, dispose of it in PCs and academies, and that’s ok. Back in my day and through the 80’s, I don’t think there was nearly as big a niche for that as there is now.

The people I feel badly for are the ones on the cusp who can’t afford the quality guys and end up sending their kid to someone who refuses to take a check or plastic. Not that all those guys are bad, but it should give anyone pause when they are forced to for a service with cash.


Now the kid goes to this instructor and that instructor, and then he gets to his team coach and he gets another version---the kid gets confused--who do I listen to? My HS coach does not like what I am doing---just read the posts we see here on this site---more confusion than sanity when it comes to direction
Its bad at the HS level, but it starts much earlier for some kids, especially those who bounce around from team to team playing tournaments.

Speaking from our own experience we have staff of "baseball people" and they are all on the same page---the players get the same direction from all of the coaches---no confusion--no nonsense-- and all the coaches talk to each other about situations—
From what I can tell from your profile, you’re talking about the best players at the college level, and that makes things a whole lot easier, mainly because they’re intelligent enough about life and the game to know BS when they hear it. For kids at lower levels who get into programs or clubs that have teams competing from 13 to 19 and stay with that program for up to 7 years, they too have a much lower confusion factor.

But normal kids get exactly what you describe. He sees this coach one day, another coach on the weekend, a PC on Thursday, his uncle Bob the ex-college player every once in a while, and of course dad, hovering over him all the time.

yes it has become too complex

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
I am just as big a believer in academics as anyone else, but... Just for the sake of debate (I know you love it) What kind of education did the following people have. I don't know if they all were Nobel Prize recepients or not.

Dalia Lama
Mother Teresa
Thomas Edison

Didn't I read that Edison was kicked out of school as a child and never went back. Hate to think what our lives would be like without him.

And Einstein failed math. But you’re trying to get me to debate something that has no relation to the topic at all, which is OK because as you noted, I don’t’ shy away from a debate.

I suppose it all comes down to what someone believes makes another person “erudite”. There’s “book learnin’” and there’s “life learnin’”, and a lot depends on one’s perspective as to which is more important.

One side of my family is blue collared artisans, and the other side has college professors and authors of some note. As a kid, it was pretty confusing to see how each side treated the other. They were all snobs! The professors looked down on the other group because they weren’t book learned, and the worker bees looked down on the other group because they couldn’t build or fix anything for themselves.

Everything is perspective. But this debate is a bit different. How about we take a poll and see what percentage of people believe their kids will be able to make a living playing sports, as opposed to the percentage of those who think book learnin’ will do much more to give them a chance for a livelihood?

I've been trying to follow this thread.

Scorekeeper has good intentions, he just needs to learn to keep it simple and not take the original thought to a different direction.

JMO.

quote:

Originally posted by Tiger Paw Mom:
he just needs to learn to keep it simple and not take the original thought to a different direction.
JMO.

Why the heck should he be any different than the other posters?


Keep it up, SK. Interesting discussion.

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TR...

My observation is that many of parents who pay the bills do not understand the process, and the value of simplicity, and genetics and reptition and hard work...and so tend it err on the side of complexity for two reasons...

First it makes it look like they are getting a great deal more for their money. Second it makes sense to them, maybe not the player, but to them. Third, when they see other parents doing this they need to keep up with the Jones hitter/hurler next door...bandwagon.

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I think from a baseball sense we are looking at only a sliver of the problem, if it is one. My daughters who waterski were recently involved with an indoor program where they use huge tanks that somehow emulates them being towed. Besides practicing fundamentals and new tricks they learn things that cannot be taught on open water. I recently went to a landscapping seminar to learn new technologies on how to grow grass (the lawn type ), most of us take advantage of new computer technologies, and the list goes on.

Bottom line is we all take advantage of new technologies, some work, some don't, some we can afford, some not, some we believe in, some we think are nothing but smoke and mirrors. It is up to the person who is shelling out the money if they think they are getting the best bang for their buck. If we don't think it is the right way we say we're "old school" if we take advantage of the situation we say were "ahead of the times". Time will tell whether the technology is a plus in regard to the end result. Technologies that work stay the coarse, ones that are fads fall by the wayside.

Technology is the "Pied Piper" of any of societies activities. In a baseball sense we as individuals decide where and when we want to jump on, and because you did does not determine the outcome. That comes from work that is done at the ground level.

quote:

Originally posted by rz1:
My daughters who waterski were recently involved with an indoor program where they use huge tanks that somehow emulates them being towed.

I'm sorry rz...you must think of me as a total dunce...but once more...how does this work?