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My son has been a pitcher now for a couple of years. He threw 120 pitches Thursday night in his high school game in 8 innings of work. (he worked up to the 120 mark this spring, so don't freak!) I asked him yesterday if his arm was sore and he told me "NO", it never gets sore". I'm not talking about a kid who doesn't throw hard either. He's consistently throwing in the upper 80's with his FB.

All I know is back when I pitched and threw 130 pitches, I couldn't lift my arm the next day or the next. Is there anyone else out there with kids and similiar stories? I don't understand how he could throw over 100 pitches and not be sore! It's baffled me for a couple of years now!!
"You see, you spend a good piece of your life gripping a baseball, and in the end it turns out that it was the other way around all the time"
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Pitch counts are established prior to damage being done and should not be established “as you go” or how you feel --- today. Let me give you an analogy to ponder. Let’s say the road to your son’s school is full of turns and has many side roads that intersect. The speed limit on that road is 40 mph because 40 mph has been determined to be a safe speed. What would you say if your son came in and said he can drive it a 75 mph and justifies that speed by saying he’s never had an accident ------- noidea
Fungo
Its sounds to me that your sons arm is well conditioned. Maybe your son is throwing in the upper 80s but he isn't overthrowing. Some kids can cruise and some kids overthrow, making their arms sore. Also, you said he threw 120 in the spring, does he work up his pitch count in bullpens before the season starts?
My son is the same way. He conditions his arm all year long. Doesn't throw in Nov & Dec. In Jan he'll start throwing again and in each bullpen he increases the amount of pitches he throws before his mechanics start to break down. By the time March rolls around, he's able to pitch well over 100 before he gets tired. His teammates don't do this and every year they complain that their arms are sore and I'm not just talking about pitchers.
Whatever he is doing, its working, so don't let anybody talk you out of it. A few scouts have talked to us and when I tell them what we do , they all seem to like our approach.The problem with people today is they all try to mold everybody the same.
Sounds to me like your son's mechanics are dialed in so he is generating force and power from his entire body, not just his arm.

Personally, I wouldn't change a thing, but I do not feel this fact is reason alone to throw an extremely high amount of picthes outing after outing. I don't think you are doing so, just wanted to make it it was said.
Old Pitcher,

I enjoy your posts very much.

There could be many reasons why your son does not experience soreness. I would imagine he has solid mechanics, and good core strength.

However, the fact that a young man can throw lots of pitches without soreness does not mean he will be healthy for ever.

Example, my youngest son never experienced any serious soreness in his arm through youth, high school, college, or 8 yrs of pro ball. He was a relief pitcher the first 8 years of professional baseball and then converted into a starter. He started 3 games in triple A and called up to pitch (start) for the Yankees against the Chicago White Sox. He blew out his elbow in that game, but continued to pitch for a few more games. Then TJ surgery! Then after TJ surgery he came back and elbow has been fine, but has had shoulder problems ever since.

This is just another example of the bullet theory (you only have so many of them) Obviously this is not an equal number of bullets for everyone. (Roger Clemens, Nolan Ryan, Greg Maddux, etc.) The point is, just because there’s no pain, doesn’t make a pitcher immune to serious problems.

IMO, the major reason for arm injuries are….

Over use (includes many different things)
Lack of recovery time
Lack of conditioning
Bad mechanics
Lack of proper preparation (warm up)
Certain pitches (more dangerous to the arm)
There are other reasons

Those who think pitchers who throw 90+ mph are more likely to have arm injuries are correct. However, it might not be for the reason most think (over throwing). In my mind, it’s because those who throw 90+ mph end up pitching much longer and more often than those who don’t. Coaches tend to use 90+ pitchers as often as possible, especially young 90+ mph pitchers. This obviously makes 90+ mph guys more likely to have arm injury (over use). It’s the reason that the lucky ones who have this velocity need to be handled with common sense. For that matter, even those who don’t throw with that kind of velocity need to be handled using common sense.

Many very good coaches understand, while many other coaches don’t! Guess there could be a game (MLB Play Offs, World Series, etc.) that is so important to win that it might be worth placing a pitcher at risk. IMO, a game that could be that important does NOT exist in youth, high school or college baseball. The best coaches know this. I know we hate it when a pitcher with a great arm and a bright future is abused just to win a high school game.

We have seen parents who are much worse than any coach. Parents who get mad if their son is not in there throwing his 150th pitch of the game to get the win. Parents who think their son should come back and pitch the BIG game the very next day or two after throwing 100 pitches. Putting the above parents together with the wrong kind of coach is a recipe for disaster and it does happen! It would be nice if everyone would get more educated.

IMO, the easiest way to know if someone is over throwing has to do with control. Those who throw (any speed) and can not throw in the zone, are probably over throwing. Some can throw 90 mph strikes at will, others can throw 90 mph and they’re all over the place. Good mechanics and arm action are critical for both good velocity and for good control.

Last point… Scouts can easily pick out the effortless from the max effort guys. Max effort guys are more likely to have less “bullets”. Scouts first watch to see what the pitcher has today and then project/predict what the pitcher will have years down the road. 90 mph max effort, over throwers are not the most appealing.
Fungo,
Love your post!

While it may very well be that for some a pitch count over 100 is normal with no soreness, it is important to remember that it is just not 120 pitches thrown on the mound. Bullpen, warm ups, may be up to 150 on that particular day.

This time of year a pitcher should be conditioned to go past his normal pitch count before his mechanics begin to break down, but going past an acceptible pitch count, not showing stress or soreness does not mean that damage is not being done that may show up later on.

I just wish that parents and players could understand that it's just not what was thrown on the mound that day, but total in bullpens, warmups for the week, weeks turn into months and months into years.

I was posting while PG was, he has given such great advice, with a great example using his own son.

JMO.
Last edited by TPM
I appreciate all the time all of you spent writing about this issue. I would have to say that my son is not a max effort pitcher. Some people who see him throw, say they can't believe he's throwing as hard as he is because it looks like he's barely throwing.

Fungo...great points. I like the analogy a lot!

Hoov...my son does throw a lot in the off-season. I run an indoor baseball and softball training center and he has full access to it and uses it a ton to throw and hit. His arm is in great shape to start the season. As a matter of fact, during the first scrimmage this year on Feb. 6, he was hit 89 on the gun 4 times. Needless to say, I was shocked. So, the throwing during the off-season paid off. He by no means throws too much though. I am on top of him like ducks on a june bug about the amount he throws.

PGStaff....Thank you for the very detailed rundown of your thoughts. You have much experience and I appreciate what you have said very much. I can't wait for my son to get to the PG events he's scheduled for this summer here in Texas and in Georgia. His mechanics have a lot to do with his ability to not get sore. I have worked with him over the years quite a bit, even before he started pitching. I held him back from pitching very much until he was 13 years old and I think that might have a lot to do with his arm being what it is as far as it not getting sore. He was a catcher all the other years and threw a lot because of that too. Congratulations to your son as well. How is he doing now? Is he still playing. I know you are very proud of him!

One thing he did tell me that his pec was a little sore on Saturday, which is understandable. He played long toss at his game yesterday and said he felt great. I know youth has a lot to do with all of this as well.

Thanks again and have a great rest of this Easter day!!

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